How to proceed in the event of not matching for residency?

[pharmacy_sucks]

I wasn't sure if one of the degrees might be more relevant in terms of the actual classes that are taken. For example, isn't software development basically the same thing as coding and software engineering? On the other hand, the CMIS program seems to be more of an IT generalist degree.

IT is more about maintaining existing infrastructure, and software engineering is more about expanding new functions. It is definitely not clear cut, and there is a lot of crossovers.

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[pharmacy_sucks]

It's a large hospital network in the southeast. From what I was told, they implemented the policy simply because the job market justifies it. They graduated their most recent residency class back in June, and 6 or 7 of the residents are still looking for jobs.

I was too bored with outpatient yesterday, so I did some LinkedIn job search. There are just sooooooo many cs jobs on the west coast that made me kinda regret a little, for not dropping out early. maybe I wouldn't get in Gatech if I did. But tech companies are hiring like crazy at this point.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

It's a large hospital network in the southeast. From what I was told, they implemented the policy simply because the job market justifies it. They graduated their most recent residency class back in June, and 6 or 7 of the residents are still looking for jobs.

when a company has no catalysts on the horizon and bad news keeps coming, short the heck out of it. If you own shares, cut loss immediately or hedge by buying puts.

 

[nickw2401]

And thats where the load of BS begins...I had a resident in their 5th month ask me what Acetadote was used for.

 

[deleted562805]

Essentially, yes!! That was my original advise and I'm sticking to it. If OP doesn't want to work retail (which I don't blame them), that's their only shot at working hospital. (but they should also look into other areas of pharmacy such as PBM, LTC, etc.).
Not to be a jerk, but OP has essentially shot themselves in the foot here. If I remember right, they went to a private school which means they took out 200K+ in loans and now they're considering taking out more loans to do a CS degree? At yet another private school? Yes federal loans can be forgiven after 20 years of on time payments, but I doubt they took out only federal loans and probably have a pretty penny in private loans. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

My guess is yes. Honestly CS seems like a field that can very easily be outsourced to other countries for a much cheaper rate. I mean it is all done online. When looking for a career, you should make sure that it's not a career that can be outsourced or automated. Everyone keeps thinking that pharmacy will be automated eventually, but there's laws in place to prevent that. Every single medication order (minus a few exceptions such as ER orders) require a pharmacist (licensed in that specific state) to approve them. Legally that cannot be done by a computer, and pharmacists have too much money to allow that to change. It also can't be outsourced (well it technically could, but the person it is being outsourced to has to be licensed in whatever state they are approving orders in).

Retail Pharmacy are already getting outsourced to PBMs, who have designed mail order pharmacies, which are more efficient than your brick and mortar pharmacies due to software technology. It’s just a matter of time before CVS replaces brick and mortar stores with mail order pharmacies nationwide.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Retail Pharmacy are already getting outsourced to PBMs, who have designed mail order pharmacies, which are more efficient than your brick and mortar pharmacies due to software technology. It’s just a matter of time before CVS replaces brick and mortar stores with mail order pharmacies nationwide.

I agree. Previously in retail, I always asked young customers if they like coming to a physical store to pick up their meds, the answer was an unequivocally no. I have not yet met a millenial who prefers brick and mortar pharmacy over mail order.

 

[deleted562805]

I agree. Previously in retail, I always asked young customers if they like coming to a physical store to pick up their meds, the answer was an unequivocally no. I have not yet met a millenial who prefers brick and mortar pharmacy over mail order.

The young customers will more likely prefer mail order as it is efficient and more convenient than a pharmacy store. However, the older customers do care about brick and mortar pharmacies, specifically they prefer independent mom and pop pharmacies. I think mail order will be beneficial to the elderly with respect to packaging meds, home delivery, and even compounding meds. However, the older customers will loose that personal connection with their independent pharmacist.

 

[PharmtoCS]

You would have to consider your options if you stay in pharmacy: 1) settle for limited hours and reduced pay in retail hell, 2) roam the country hoping someone will give you a per diem position in a hospital, or 3) sit unemployed.

Paying another $30k or so in tuition is a no brainer to get into a profession where employers are begging for more workers and giving 20% raises and Teslas as signing bonuses. There is a huge shortage of computer programmers right now.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You would have to consider your options if you stay in pharmacy: 1) settle for limited hours and reduced pay in retail hell, 2) roam the country hoping someone will give you a per diem position in a hospital, or 3) sit unemployed.

Paying another $30k or so in tuition is a no brainer to get into a profession where employers are begging for more workers and giving 20% raises and Tesla as signing bonuses. There is a huge shortage of computer programmers right now.

I agree with everything you said in your post, but the last sentence is the only thing I'm possibly concerned about. As you said, there is a huge shortage of computer programmers right now. Is that still likely to be the case 2, 3, 5+ years from now? The people I've talked to think that the skill of programming/software engineering itself is utilized too ubiquitously for the field to reach a traditional saturation scenario anytime soon, but it's still worth thinking about.

 

[TheBlaah]

I'm gonna guess that the hospital you worked at is Piedmont: Columbus Regional.

I'm going to defend you from some of the other posters as I believe I may have some insight and empathy for your circumstances if I happen to be right. Before its acquisition, Columbus already had a reputation of abusing its residents. The mere fact that they have 10-12 residents a year for a ~600 bed hospital should be an immediate clue-in. They can probably only hire 1-2 of those residents a year. Then there's the staffing every other weekend, low amounts of PTO, and high amount of staffing hours, it's obvious they're just using the residents as workhorses. While I don't necessarily see staffing is a bad thing; you're also there to learn.

Now with Piedmont acquiring them, I can only imagine it's gotten worse. Piedmont's notorious for treating it employees badly. Just imagine what they'll do to the residents. There's the overnight on call for all vancomycin orders for residents. The toxic culture. Zero loyalty. Quite frankly, it's probably one of the worst residencies I've heard of in the Southeast region. If that is what your experience of what a residency is, I feel that you're seeing the extreme end of the spectrum and I completely understand your reluctance to complete a residency.

Even if you do get accepted by them, my advice would be to consider turning them down even if they're the only ones to invite you. Or to tentatively accept while still looking for another position.


As for CS, I would consider very carefully whether
a) you have the capability for coding
and b) whether you would actually enjoy it long-term.

While I've dabbled in coding (CBA, java, html, C++, SQL, ect) to help streamline or fix things at my hospital, I only do it occasionally as I know I would absolutely LOATHE doing it on a daily basis. Not that many people fit into both categories; which is partly why programming has so much burnout/being transitioned out of coding. Burnout and crunch time are the biggest reasons behind the nice amenities afforded to coders.

Very few meet both criteria. Pay and work environment should be considered secondary since the pay is relatively close (you seem to be older and you'd have to go to back to school for another 2 years while paying for the curriculum). Shortages and work conditions come in waves and generally nothing lasts forever.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I'm gonna guess that the hospital you worked at is Piedmont: Columbus Regional.

I'm going to defend you from some of the other posters as I believe I may have some insight and empathy for your circumstances if I happen to be right. Before its acquisition, Columbus already had a reputation of abusing its residents. The mere fact that they have 10-12 residents a year for a ~600 bed hospital should be an immediate clue-in. They can probably only hire 1-2 of those residents a year. Then there's the staffing every other weekend, low amounts of PTO, and high amount of staffing hours, it's obvious they're just using the residents as workhorses. While I don't necessarily see staffing is a bad thing; you're also there to learn.

Now with Piedmont acquiring them, I can only imagine it's gotten worse. Piedmont's notorious for treating it employees badly. Just imagine what they'll do to the residents. There's the overnight on call for all vancomycin orders for residents. The toxic culture. Zero loyalty. Quite frankly, it's probably one of the worst residencies I've heard of in the Southeast region. If that is what your experience of what a residency is, I feel that you're seeing the extreme end of the spectrum and I completely understand your reluctance to complete a residency.

Even if you do get accepted by them, my advice would be to consider turning them down even if they're the only ones to invite you. Or to tentatively accept while still looking for another position.


As for CS, I would consider very carefully whether
a) you have the capability for coding
and b) whether you would actually enjoy it long-term.

While I've dabbled in coding (CBA, java, html, C++, SQL, ect) to help streamline or fix things at my hospital, I only do it occasionally as I know I would absolutely LOATHE doing it on a daily basis. Not that many people fit into both categories; which is partly why programming has so much burnout/being transitioned out of coding. Burnout and crunch time are the biggest reasons behind the nice amenities afforded to coders.

Very few meet both criteria. Pay and work environment should be considered secondary since the pay is relatively close (you seem to be older and you'd have to go to back to school for another 2 years while paying for the curriculum). Shortages and work conditions come in waves and generally nothing lasts forever.

I'll PM you regarding the first part of your post. As to the comments you made regarding coding, those two points you stated (whether I have the capability for it and whether I would enjoy it long-term) are the two big questions I'm trying to answer. I'm going to try to start a free online introductory-level coding course this week (provided I don't have too many assignments to complete for my rotation) so I can go ahead and get a feel for whether or not it's for me. Besides coding, I was also looking into cyber security programs as well as more generalist IT masters programs. I'm not sure if the same two criteria apply to people who want to pursue careers in those professions, though.

I agree about the additional schooling not being ideal, which is why I was also looking into the possibility of completing of a 3-4 month bootcamp to save time. Even though the additional debt sucks, I guess one way I've been trying to justify the additional time spent doing a masters program (if I end up not doing a bootcamp) is by considering the fact that the alternative scenario would probably mean doing 1-2 years of residency (assuming I match somewhere), unless I manage to find a job somewhere. So in a way, I would almost rather do 1.5-2 extra years of schooling than spend the same amount of time in residency.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Business Analyst III - Revenue Cycle in United States, Georgia, Atlanta, Grady Hospital

Grady Health System offers many career paths for your professional growth. Whether you have many years of experience or are in the early stages on...

gmh.referrals.selectminds.com

someone just posted this on the OMSA subreddit. It seems to me that it's much easier for a cs grad to find work in hospital than pharmacists lol.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Business Analyst III - Revenue Cycle in United States, Georgia, Atlanta, Grady Hospital

Grady Health System offers many career paths for your professional growth. Whether you have many years of experience or are in the early stages on...

gmh.referrals.selectminds.com

someone just posted this on the OMSA subreddit. It seems to me that it's much easier for a cs grad to find work in hospital than pharmacists lol.

LOL, it probably is. The only catch is, since that's a level III position, it requires experience (3 years according to the job listing). Pretending it was an entry-level job, which degree would make someone more marketable for it: a software development degree, or a more generalist IT degree like the MCIS from BU?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

LOL, it probably is. The only catch is, since that's a level III position, it requires experience (3 years according to the job listing). Pretending it was an entry-level job, which degree would make someone more marketable for it: a software development degree, or a more generalist IT degree like the MCIS from BU?

Every entry level position will say it requires 3 years of experience lol. I doubt any cs grads will go for these types of hospital positions, as they will unlikely match the pay of software firms.
BA jobs are mostly data analyst job. This one only says SQL, so probably reporting type of an IT analyst job. Definitely entry level for sure.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Every entry level position will say it requires 3 years of experience lol. I doubt any cs grads will go for these types of hospital positions, as they will unlikely match the pay of software firms.
BA jobs are mostly data analyst job. This one only says SQL, so probably reporting type of an IT analyst job. Definitely entry level for sure.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out which degree program I should actually sign up for if I end up being lucky enough to get accepted to both UPenn's program and Boston U's MCIS program. To keep my options open, I will probably apply to all the programs we've talked about (UPenn, Boston U, FIT, any others I find). My understanding is that UPenn's program, which I would imagine would be the best choice (if lucky enough to get accepted), is strictly a software engineering/development program, right? In other words, if I want to be qualified for coding/SWE jobs, a degree like UPenn's MCIT or Boston U's Software Development degree would be best, right?

And on the other hand, if I'm more interested in IT jobs, Boston U's MCIS degree would be best, right?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I guess I'm just trying to figure out which degree program I should actually sign up for if I end up being lucky enough to get accepted to both UPenn's program and Boston U's MCIS program. To keep my options open, I will probably apply to all the programs we've talked about (UPenn, Boston U, FIT, any others I find). My understanding is that UPenn's program, which I would imagine would be the best choice (if lucky enough to get accepted), is strictly a software engineering/development program, right? In other words, if I want to be qualified for coding/SWE jobs, a degree like UPenn's MCIT or Boston U's Software Development degree would be best, right?

And on the other hand, if I'm more interested in IT jobs, Boston U's MCIS degree would be best, right?

Either one is fine, to be honest. Most software engineers would be bored to death to just write SQL queries all day long, as it is so easy and so intellectually unstimulating work, but it seems like hospitals have a whole bunch of those jobs available. At this point, I would say even bottom of the barrel IT jobs in hospitals would be better than PGY-2 trained pharmacist hires.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Either one is fine, to be honest. Most software engineers would be bored to death to just write SQL queries all day long, as it is so easy and so intellectually unstimulating work, but it seems like hospitals have a whole bunch of those jobs available. At this point, I would say even bottom of the barrel IT jobs in hospitals would be better than PGY-2 trained pharmacist hires.

Ok, I just wasn't sure if Boston U's CMIS program actually offered enough education on coding languages as compared to the software development degree, which obviously focuses on coding and SWE. In other words, I didn't know if I'd be limiting my job prospects if I completed the CMIS program as compared to a more traditional software development degree.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Ok, I just wasn't sure if Boston U's CMIS program actually offered enough education on coding languages as compared to the software development degree, which obviously focuses on coding and SWE. In other words, I didn't know if I'd be limiting my job prospects if I completed the CMIS program as compared to a more traditional software development degree.

Most cs courses nowadays are taught language-agnostic, meaning that it's up to you to know the syntax of a specific language you wanna implement. Unless it's taught by a community college, most cs courses you take won't teach any specific language. They will show you the pseudo-code for the algorithm and ask you to apply it on a different problem using whatever language you prefer, python, java, or c++, for programming assignments.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Most cs courses nowadays are taught language-agnostic, meaning that it's up to you to know the syntax of a specific language you wanna implement. Unless it's taught by a community college, most cs courses you take won't teach any specific language. They will show you the pseudo-code for the algorithm and ask you to apply it on a different problem using whatever language you prefer, python, java, or c++, for programming assignments.

Thanks. Another thing to consider is that Boston U's MCIS doesn't seem to be a software development-focused program in general. Here are the courses, so you can see what I mean:



Then students have to choose 4 elective courses to take:





The reason I'm hesitant on whether or not this program would be my best option (if UPenn's MCIT doesn't work out) is because Boston U also offers a separate MS in Software Development. So if I'm primarily interested in getting hired to work as a software engineer, the Software Development MS would be the best choice, right?

In general, though, which degree (between the MCIS and the MS in Software Development, both offered by Boston U) would lead to the best job prospects, regardless of what type of job I'd rather have?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Thanks. Another thing to consider is that Boston U's MCIS doesn't seem to be a software development-focused program in general. Here are the courses, so you can see what I mean:

View attachment 295260

Then students have to choose 4 elective courses to take:

View attachment 295263
View attachment 295260
View attachment 295265

The reason I'm hesitant on whether or not this program would be my best option (if UPenn's MCIT doesn't work out) is because Boston U also offers a separate MS in Software Development. So if I'm primarily interested in getting hired to work as a software engineer, the Software Development MS would be the best choice, right?

In general, though, which degree (between the MCIS and the MS in Software Development, both offered by Boston U) would lead to the best job prospects, regardless of what type of job I'd rather have?

For reference, OMSCS courses are like this:

https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/current-courses

Software development is a rather large field, with many different applications and focuses. What do you foresee yourself doing?
Again, 4 different tracks for OMSCS:

https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/specializations

 

[Hedgehog32]

For reference, OMSCS courses are like this:

https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/current-courses

Software development is a rather large field, with many different applications and focuses. What do you foresee yourself doing?
Again, 4 different tracks for OMSCS:

https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/specializations

That's a good question; I'm honestly not sure. Since I don't have any experience with IT, software dev, coding, etc., I would say that my interests are fairly open at the moment. To be honest, after going through pharmacy school and seeing what has happened with the job market, I'm inclined to say that I would prefer to do whichever program will make me the most marketable in the job market after graduating.

Between the MCIS and MS in Software Development, I'm guessing that would probably be the MS in Software Development (if comparing the two programs offered by BU)?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

@Hedgehog32 and any other P4s reading this thread:

From personal experience, I know how fun it is to fantasize about doing something different than what I am doing in the moment. making a plan for doing stuff in the future feels good. it's definitely good to have a plan B, it's a responsible thing to do. But making plans can also be a great way to procrastinate while still feeling good about it. Future giga always seems more disciplined, motivated, and better at time management than present giga, and present giga feels good about making decisions about what future giga is going to do.

That's all to say that spending more time and money on school just so that you increase your chances of getting a job years down the road when you already have an advanced college degree in hand is not entirely... rational. It is objectively easier, quicker, and more cost effective to find ANY job as a pharmacist than it is to complete a masters in computer science.

The pharmacist job market is rough, but making a plan to jump ship as a P4 before you're even licensed seems to be more about being overwhelmed by the difficulties of finding a job than about wanting to pursue a different career. I fully support leaving the pharmacy profession - there are plenty of good reasons to do so. But if you're not even sure what kind of CS or IT job you're really interested in doing - just whatever is more likely to land you a job - I think you're better off investing your time and energy finding a pharmacist job. Especially if your primary goal is to find a decent paying job.

If you don't match with a residency, you can participate in the scramble. If you aren't able to successfully scramble, you can do all of the following:
1) network as much as you possibly can: go to pharmacy conferences, engage with faculty at your school, join your state pharmacy association, reach out to folks who graduated a year or two ago from your school and ask them if they have any leads, cold contact folks on LinkedIn, cold contact members of pharmacy professional organizations that you are also a member of.
2) utilize all the career services your university offers (cover letter writing, interviewing skills, resume writing, etc. even if you don't think you need it)
3) look into any job fairs your local government is hosting
4) volunteer in the community - doesn't have to be specifically in a health setting or health care related. it's a great way to meet people who may be able to provide you leads to a job.
5) join the military, national guard, peace corps, or americorps. Get free training, build up your CV/resume, get some money towards paying back loans, and avoid going further in debt.

I would agree with you on this. CS, on average, is a better career path than pharmacy, no question about it. But is it a right call to jump immediately onto a masters program RIGHT NOW? I don't think so, especially when you have no clue what you are signing up for and haven't coded much. The learning curve will be very steep, and there will be no hand-holding at all. You will be expected to pick up new languages or libraries on the fly. Do you know for sure if you can handle it? That's the main question. If you know for sure you can, go ahead and never look back. If not, maybe now is not the right time.

 

[Hedgehog32]

@Hedgehog32 and any other P4s reading this thread:

From personal experience, I know how fun it is to fantasize about doing something different than what I am doing in the moment. making a plan for doing stuff in the future feels good. it's definitely good to have a plan B, it's a responsible thing to do. But making plans can also be a great way to procrastinate while still feeling good about it. Future giga always seems more disciplined, motivated, and better at time management than present giga, and present giga feels good about making decisions about what future giga is going to do.

That's all to say that spending more time and money on school just so that you increase your chances of getting a job years down the road when you already have an advanced college degree in hand is not entirely... rational. It is objectively easier, quicker, and more cost effective to find ANY job as a pharmacist than it is to complete a masters in computer science.

The pharmacist job market is rough, but making a plan to jump ship as a P4 before you're even licensed seems to be more about being overwhelmed by the difficulties of finding a job than about wanting to pursue a different career. I fully support leaving the pharmacy profession - there are plenty of good reasons to do so. But if you're not even sure what kind of CS or IT job you're really interested in doing - just whatever is more likely to land you a job - I think you're better off investing your time and energy finding a pharmacist job. Especially if your primary goal is to find a decent paying job.

If you don't match with a residency, you can participate in the scramble. If you aren't able to successfully scramble, you can do all of the following:
1) network as much as you possibly can: go to pharmacy conferences, engage with faculty at your school, join your state pharmacy association, reach out to folks who graduated a year or two ago from your school and ask them if they have any leads, cold contact folks on LinkedIn, cold contact members of pharmacy professional organizations that you are also a member of.
2) utilize all the career services your university offers (cover letter writing, interviewing skills, resume writing, etc. even if you don't think you need it)
3) look into any job fairs your local government is hosting
4) volunteer in the community - doesn't have to be specifically in a health setting or health care related. it's a great way to meet people who may be able to provide you leads to a job.
5) join the military, national guard, peace corps, or americorps. Get free training, build up your CV/resume, get some money towards paying back loans, and avoid going further in debt.

@giga, I appreciate the advice. Just to clarify and in response to the point you made that it makes more sense to find any job as a pharmacist since I'm not sure which specific CS/IT job I'd even enjoy, I realize that the post I made above makes it look like I'm willing to pursue education/training in virtually whichever tech career is in highest demand; however, what I'm actually trying to do is essentially convey that if I identify two CS careers, one of which I'd really enjoy doing and the other one I'd moderately enjoy doing, then I'd rather pursue the one I'd moderately enjoy doing, especially after having seen what's happened in the pharmacist job market. It's basically a case of not wanting to make the same mistake twice and being sure to do things the right way with as high of a degree of confidence as possible if I do end up going back to school.

What you said in your first paragraph regarding how fun and motivating it is to make illustrious future plans applies as well. I will readily admit that a large part of what appeals to me about the prospect of going back to school for CS is the fact that on an apples-to-apples comparative basis, it's basically at polar opposite ends of the spectrum from pharmacy. In other words, if I was graduating this May with a CS masters degree instead of a Pharm.D., I would undoubtedly have had several job interviews (maybe even job offers) by now and wouldn't be searching throughout the entire country for one position I might qualify for. So the prospect of appealing a career that is better off than pharmacy in every measure (at least currently) than pharmacy has almost a fantasy-like appeal to it.

Also, on your suggestion to network, that's actually what I've been trying to do for the last few months by contacting hospital DOPs, recruiters, and staying in touch with the pharmacists I used to work with when I had my intern job. After talking to probably 50-60+ professionals from hospitals and recruiting firms, literally almost all of them have told me the same thing (they don't hire new grads anymore, must have completed residency, etc.). An HR recruiter with Banner Health in AZ said they even received 40+ applications during the first 12 hours of posting a job for one of their rural hospitals, and a DOP for a hospital in Bethel, AK said that while they used to consider new grads for positions, they've recently been receiving applications from experienced and/or residency-trained pharmacists and are no longer considering new grads as a consequence.

I have also been keeping in touch with c/o 2019 graduates as well as graduates of the residency program run by the hospital I worked as an intern at; ironically enough, what I've observed of their experiences trying to find jobs is another factor that is making me consider switching paths to CS. Aside from a few people who landed residencies and retail positions after having worked as interns for chains, the majority of 2019 grads (including those who completed the residency) are still looking for jobs. I know one person who took 9 months to find a job, and another from the c/o 2018 who took 14 months to find a job. Seven of the 10 residents who graduate from the local residency are still trying to find jobs.

So that's another element of my justification to at least consider pursuing a CS career: if most new grads are taking over 6+ months to find jobs, why not go ahead and get ahead of the curve and aggressively start pursuing a skillset/qualification I'd be almost guaranteed to get a job in?

I think part of my issue is that I really, really don't want to work retail. After I completed my community IPPE rotation, I got the job as an inpatient hospital intern. I honestly can't imagine being happy as a retail pharmacist, and I realize that pursuing a profession in which ~70% of jobs are in that sector and having that mindset doesn't make sense. But that's the thing... even if I wanted to do retail, literally everyone I know who has gotten a retail job has had to take jobs in rural areas, or jobs that involve floating all over the place.

Before this becomes even more of a wall of text, I'll add just one more point. When I started pharmacy school, my preferences regarding location and where I'd eventually like to end up were different, but over the last few years, I have come to realize that those preferences have changed and I would eventually like to relocate to a nicer area (e.g., larger city, or at least one with a better standard of living). Of course, we all know that's an extremely difficult thing to do as a pharmacist these days.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that neither career path is ideal at this point, but if I was to objectively look at the various factors and circumstances surrounding both fields and ask myself which one will most likely lead to me being generally satisfied with my career, working conditions, location, etc., I'd honestly have to say the distinction would have to go to CS.

That's not to say I'm not going to continue trying to get a hospital/LTC job lined up. The nice thing about the CS programs I'm looking at is that they'll allow students to enroll on a part-time basis, so I could technically take one course per semester for the first couple semesters while I try to line up a pharmacist job. If I do get a pharmacist job, it could very well make sense to continue earning the CS degree on a part-time basis, but even if I decide not to continue with the CS degree, I'd "only" be out a few thousand dollars at that point. But I have a feeling that if I find myself in the same situation next December/January/February without a job, I'll be glad I went ahead and started pursuing something else, even if just on a part-time basis.

(Sorry for getting so long-winded and kudos to anyone who has the patience to read through all that)

 

[Hedgehog32]

I would agree with you on this. CS, on average, is a better career path than pharmacy, no question about it. But is it a right call to jump immediately onto a masters program RIGHT NOW? I don't think so, especially when you have no clue what you are signing up for and haven't coded much. The learning curve will be very steep, and there will be no hand-holding at all. You will be expected to pick up new languages or libraries on the fly. Do you know for sure if you can handle it? That's the main question. If you know for sure you can, go ahead and never look back. If not, maybe now is not the right time.

Is it common for people to enroll in CS programs and then drop out because they couldn't handle the material? In general, is coding something that someone either does or doesn't have the capacity to learn? For example, if I start the program and I end up having a difficult time with the material, is it like anything else in the sense that I can still master it by putting in extra time/effort?

BTW, I'm looking at free Python courses to audit on Coursera so I can hopefully get an idea of whether or not I'm cut out for CS. Also, Boston U makes certain applicants take an intro-level CS as a prerequisite, so if they tell me I have to take that, I guess it will be another opportunity to see whether or not I'm capable of doing the work.

I would honestly hope that I am smart enough to learn CS considering some of the people I know IRL who have gone into CS, but I guess you never know.

Then again, if I find myself in the same situation (I.e., no non-retail job prospects) next winter, what else am I supposed to do? At that point switching to something else becomes even more worth considering. I guess I could apply to PA programs as well, but that would be MUCH more expensive than completing a CS masters degree or even a bootcamp.

Another option could be to complete Hack Reactor's free 5-week prep course, take their technical interview, and if I pass it, then I can take that as an indication that I can handle CS work. At that point I would be in the strategic position of being able to complete their bootcamp program (one of the most well-regarded) in three months.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Is it common for people to enroll in CS programs and then drop out because they couldn't handle the material? In general, is coding something that someone either does or doesn't have the capacity to learn? For example, if I start the program and I end up having a difficult time with the material, is it like anything else in the sense that I can still master it by putting in extra time/effort?

BTW, I'm looking at free Python courses to audit on Coursera so I can hopefully get an idea of whether or not I'm cut out for CS. Also, Boston U makes certain applicants take an intro-level CS as a prerequisite, so if they tell me I have to take that, I guess it will be another opportunity to see whether or not I'm capable of doing the work.

I would honestly hope that I am smart enough to learn CS considering some of the people I know IRL who have gone into CS, but I guess you never know.

Then again, if I find myself in the same situation (I.e., no non-retail job prospects) next winter, what else am I supposed to do? At that point switching to something else becomes even more worth considering. I guess I could apply to PA programs as well, but that would be MUCH more expensive than completing a CS masters degree or even a bootcamp.

Another option could be to complete Hack Reactor's free 5-week prep course, take their technical interview, and if I pass it, then I can take that as an indication that I can handle CS work. At that point I would be in the strategic position of being able to complete their bootcamp program (one of the most well-regarded) in three months.

I had lunch with a fellow P4 today, who has a CS minor. He didn't go all in cuz he felt he was not the type of person who can consistently self-teach and be completely self-reliant. I mean, even in a cs program or a bootcamp, you are basically still completely on your own. There will be weekly lectures and TA sessions and piazza/slack etc to ask questions and troubleshoot, but most the time they are all very high level stuff, so you will be learning new technologies all by yourself. How you learn them, they don't care, and they won't teach you the nitty-gritty of any programming language, BUT they will require you or your group to submit the project and get the job done. So It is still all up to you to learn how to actually implement things. new language or library. The project requirement might just say something like “D3.js might be helpful to visualize your data”, then you or your group members will be scrambling day and night to learn D3.js on the fly to get the homework done.

That's why CS is so different than pharmacy or medicine. It's a completely different mindset, and therefore a completely different career path and outcome.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I had lunch with a fellow P4 today, who has a CS minor. He didn't go all in cuz he felt he was not the type of person who can consistently self-teach and be completely self-reliant. I mean, even in a cs program or a bootcamp, you are basically still completely on your own. There will be weekly lectures and TA sessions and piazza/slack etc to ask questions and troubleshoot, but most the time they are all very high level stuff, so you will be learning new technologies all by yourself. How you learn them, they don't care, and they won't teach you the nitty-gritty of any programming language, BUT they will require you or your group to submit the project and get the job done. So It is still all up to you to learn how to actually implement things. new language or library. The project requirement might just say something like “D3.js might be helpful to visualize your data”, then you or your group members will be scrambling day and night to learn D3.js on the fly to get the homework done.

That's why CS is so different than pharmacy or medicine. It's a completely different mindset, and therefore a completely different career path and outcome.

I understand what you are saying, but I guess I'm just surprised that at the beginning of the thread you didn't have any hesitations over suggesting that I consider pursuing a career in CS, and yet now you're actively advising me to steer myself away from even considering one. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but I would at least think that you'd agree that it's worth trying a free course offered through a platform like Coursera before I automatically write myself off as lacking the intellectual aptitude for it. I guess it just kind of sucks to be told that I shouldn't even lend it any consideration when I haven't even made even an effort to at least ascertain whether I'm cut out for the work or not.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I understand what you are saying, but I guess I'm just surprised that at the beginning of the thread you didn't have any hesitations over suggesting that I consider pursuing a career in CS, and yet now you're actively advising me to steer myself away from even considering one. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but I would at least think that you'd agree that it's worth trying a free course offered through a platform like Coursera before I automatically write myself off as lacking the intellectual aptitude for it. I guess it just kind of sucks to be told that I shouldn't even lend it any consideration when I haven't even made even an effort to at least ascertain whether I'm cut out for the work or not.

I was kinda shocked that you started investigating and comparing cs programs and curricula without actually trying coding yourself or knowing which direction you want to go after. I assumed you were very clear on what the expectations are as a prospective cs graduate program applicant, but now I am not that so sure.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I understand what you are saying, but I guess I'm just surprised that at the beginning of the thread you didn't have any hesitations over suggesting that I consider pursuing a career in CS, and yet now you're actively advising me to steer myself away from even considering one. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but I would at least think that you'd agree that it's worth trying a free course offered through a platform like Coursera before I automatically write myself off as lacking the intellectual aptitude for it. I guess it just kind of sucks to be told that I shouldn't even lend it any consideration when I haven't even made even an effort to at least ascertain whether I'm cut out for the work or not.

By all means, I am not actively advising you against a career in CS, rather I would encourage you to explore your options in CS whether you get a pharmacist job or not. My concern is, you seem to lack some basic understanding of what the expectations are before you try to sign up a program. I am not blaming you for that, but I think you need to read up and know what the journey is like, before you start it. All CS programs are similar in a way that nobody will hold your hands and do a demo each time they ask you to do something. They will ask you do a project without giving you much guidance or instructions, and it's entirely up to you to start from scratch and go from there. If you always self-teach, great, cs might not be that hard for you at all as long as you don't quit. If you always need hand-holding, it might not work out well.

 

[Hedgehog32]

By all means, I am not actively advising you against a career in CS, rather I would encourage you to explore your options in CS whether you get a pharmacist job or not. My concern is, you seem to lack some basic understanding of what the expectations are before you try to sign up a program. I am not blaming you for that, but I think you need to read up and know what the journey is like, before you start it. All CS programs are similar in a way that nobody will hold your hands and do a demo each time they ask you to do something. They will ask you do a project without giving you much guidance or instructions, and it's entirely up to you to start from scratch and go from there. If you always self-teach, great, cs might not be that hard for you at all as long as you don't quit. If you always need hand-holding, it might not work out well.

I guess I'll just have to explore the nature of the work and figure all those things out for myself...

 

[Emmet2301]

Just a clarification: an MSIT prepares you for various positions like Systems Analyst, Tech Consultant etc. Here you'd do more of a little bit of everything (coding, testing, analysis, business analysis, database etc.) which can be challenging, but fun and rewarding at the same time.

An MSSD is more for strict Engineers/Developers so most likely coding day in and day out.

SD requires a very different mindset that a lot of people don't have or don't want to tolerate. It's very tough all around and can be a bit dry at times. However, there are lots of job opportunities in SD (more than in IT, but IT has a lot as well).

Do some more research, speak with admissions counselors and IT professionals and then make your decision. Good luck!

 

[Hedgehog32]

Just a clarification: an MSIT prepares you for various positions like Systems Analyst, Tech Consultant etc. Here you'd do more of a little bit of everything (coding, testing, analysis, business analysis, database etc.) which can be challenging, but fun and rewarding at the same time.

An MSSD is more for strict Engineers/Developers so most likely coding day in and day out.

SD requires a very different mindset that a lot of people don't have or don't want to tolerate. It's very tough all around and can be a bit dry at times. However, there are lots of job opportunities in SD (more than in IT, but IT has a lot as well).

Do some more research, speak with admissions counselors and IT professionals and then make your decision. Good luck!

Thanks for clarifying the differences between the two programs. It sounds like the MCIT (offered UPenn) and the MCIS (offered Boston U) are geared towards people who want to develop more of a generalist background like you attributed to the MSIT, although UPenn's MCIT curriculum seems to be geared more towards SD. I'm guessing that if I want a greater variety of job opportunities other than SD, the MCIS would be the better degree to consider. Also going to talk to admissions counselors and maybe even professors from each respective program and ask them about specific career pathways for each degree.

One of my relatives actually works as a database systems engineer (I think that's what he said his title is) for Cisco, makes around $120k/year, and was offered the opportunity to work at home after working in-office for 6 months. I'm assuming that Boston U's MCIS with a concentration in Database Management & Business Intelligence would be the way to go if I wanted a position like his.

 

[mentos]

Business Analyst III - Revenue Cycle in United States, Georgia, Atlanta, Grady Hospital

Grady Health System offers many career paths for your professional growth. Whether you have many years of experience or are in the early stages on...

gmh.referrals.selectminds.com

someone just posted this on the OMSA subreddit. It seems to me that it's much easier for a cs grad to find work in hospital than pharmacists lol.

When I was looking for jobs a few years ago, Pillpack had so many openings for systems engineers. But no openings for pharmacists LoL.

 

[Hedgehog32]

By all means, I am not actively advising you against a career in CS, rather I would encourage you to explore your options in CS whether you get a pharmacist job or not. My concern is, you seem to lack some basic understanding of what the expectations are before you try to sign up a program. I am not blaming you for that, but I think you need to read up and know what the journey is like, before you start it. All CS programs are similar in a way that nobody will hold your hands and do a demo each time they ask you to do something. They will ask you do a project without giving you much guidance or instructions, and it's entirely up to you to start from scratch and go from there. If you always self-teach, great, cs might not be that hard for you at all as long as you don't quit. If you always need hand-holding, it might not work out well.

Another thing to consider is, even if I don't end up wanting a pure software development job, there are other tech jobs that may end up being a good fit, such as those in cybersecurity, database management, etc. My understanding is that the MCIT from UPenn and the MCIS from Boston would also prepare someone well for one of these other careers. I'm just saying that software dev isn't the only tech career out there to consider.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Another thing to consider is, even if I don't end up wanting a pure software development job, there are other tech jobs that may end up being a good fit, such as those in cybersecurity, database management, etc. My understanding is that the MCIT from UPenn and the MCIS from Boston would also prepare someone well for one of these other careers. I'm just saying that software dev isn't the only tech career out there to consider.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was not talking about what happens after you complete the program. I am talking about how or if you can graduate from one of the program after you get accepted, Online programs generally have notoriously high attrition rate, up to 90-95% never making it to the graduation ceremony. Courses are very accessible for sure but that also means it's totally up to you when you are stuck.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was not talking about what happens after you complete the program. I am talking about how or if you can graduate from one of the program after you get accepted, Online programs generally have notoriously high attrition rate, up to 90-95% never making it to the graduation ceremony. Courses are very accessible for sure but that also means it's totally up to you when you are stuck.

I'm not sure what to say. I guess I'll either have what it takes or I won't. If, after completing a free online Python intro course, I decide to enroll in one of these programs and end up not being smart enough after all, then I guess that will be on me and I'll have to deal with the consequences of jumping into something I wasn't intellectually cut-out for.

 

[deleted562805]

I had lunch with a fellow P4 today, who has a CS minor. He didn't go all in cuz he felt he was not the type of person who can consistently self-teach and be completely self-reliant. I mean, even in a cs program or a bootcamp, you are basically still completely on your own. There will be weekly lectures and TA sessions and piazza/slack etc to ask questions and troubleshoot, but most the time they are all very high level stuff, so you will be learning new technologies all by yourself. How you learn them, they don't care, and they won't teach you the nitty-gritty of any programming language, BUT they will require you or your group to submit the project and get the job done. So It is still all up to you to learn how to actually implement things. new language or library. The project requirement might just say something like “D3.js might be helpful to visualize your data”, then you or your group members will be scrambling day and night to learn D3.js on the fly to get the homework done.

That's why CS is so different than pharmacy or medicine. It's a completely different mindset, and therefore a completely different career path and outcome.

You are correct. I originally thought about CS during P4 but then I realized CS requires a different thought process.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You are correct. I originally thought about CS during P4 but then I realized CS requires a different thought process.

Do you think some of us might simply not be smart enough to do CS?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I'm not sure what to say. I guess I'll either have what it takes or I won't. If, after completing a free online Python intro course, I decide to enroll in one of these programs and end up not being smart enough after all, then I guess that will be on me and I'll have to deal with the consequences of jumping into something I wasn't intellectually cut-out for.

That's kinda of what I have been trying to say so far. CS is definitely a good direction, but I want you to try it out before jumping all-in. What if you can't handle it, or don't like it or whatever. CS is not pharmacy any more, and it's a whole new unknown and sometimes treacherous territory. You have to test the waters cautiously before making decisions, going all-in or backing out now.

 

[Hedgehog32]

That's kinda of what I have been trying to say so far. CS is definitely a good direction, but I want you to try it out before jumping all-in. What if you can't handle it, or don't like it or whatever. CS is not pharmacy any more, and it's a whole new unknown and sometimes treacherous territory. You have to test the waters cautiously before making decisions, going all-in or backing out now.

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, but I think it's clear that I will at least have to lend serious consideration to pursuing something else. I just thought it was kind of surprising that you seemed to sort of turn negative on CS after initially recommending it to me earlier in the thread.

Also, even if it turns out that I'm not smart enough for CS, there are database/IT and cybersecurity jobs that I can look into pursuing instead. From the research I've done, most of them don't pay as well as CS, but they also don't require the same level of aptitude/IQ that CS requires either. So I think it would be naive to not consider those as potential alternatives to CS.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, but I think it's clear that I will at least have to lend serious consideration to pursuing something else. I just thought it was kind of surprising that you seemed to sort of turn negative on CS after initially recommending it to me earlier in the thread.

Also, even if it turns out that I'm not smart enough for CS, there are database/IT and cybersecurity jobs that I can look into pursuing instead. From the research I've done, most of them don't pay as well as CS, but they also don't require the same level of aptitude/IQ that CS requires either. So I think it would be naive to not consider those as potential alternatives to CS.

I didn't turn negative, but I started to have reservation when you didn't seem to know what's ahead of this journey while you literally just wanted to jump on it overnight.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I didn't turn negative, but I started to have reservation when you didn't seem to know what's ahead of this journey while you literally just wanted to jump on it overnight.

Fair enough; maybe CS is now the wrong profession for me to pursue, but given the abysmal state of the pharmacist job market, I think it's clear that I need to at least research plan B careers. Like I said, even if I am, in fact, too much of a dumb*** to be a SWE, there are plenty of other tech careers that don't require the same skillset or (apparently extremely high) level of intelligence, such as general IT positions (e.g., database positions, system administrator jobs, etc.).

 

[deleted562805]

Do you think some of us might simply not be smart enough to do CS?

I wouldn’t say smart per se. You need to train your brain a different way. Your analytical skills need to be sharp for CS.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I wouldn’t say smart per se. You need to train your brain a different way. Your analytical skills need to be sharp for CS.

Hopefully they're either sharp enough or capable of becoming that way through practice and education

 

[deleted562805]

Hopefully they're either sharp enough or capable of becoming that way through practice and education

True. Plus in my case, I am not interested in taking a math class past Cal2. And the pre-reqs for CS involve classes past Cal2.

 

[Hedgehog32]

True. Plus in my case, I am not interested in taking a math class past Cal2. And the pre-reqs for CS involve classes past Cal2.

Believe it or not, the entry-level MS programs I'm planning on applying to are intended for people who don't have backgrounds in CS or engineering and don't have any specific math prerequisite requirements. Apparently you don't need as much of a hardcore math background if you're not going to enroll in a program that emphasizes the theory behind CS and SWE as much as more engineering-focused programs might.

 

[deleted562805]

Believe it or not, the entry-level MS programs I'm planning on applying to are intended for people who don't have backgrounds in CS or engineering and don't have any specific math prerequisite requirements. Apparently you don't need as much of a hardcore math background if you're not going to enroll in a program that emphasizes the theory behind CS and SWE as much as more engineering-focused programs might.

Interesting. You know MIT open courseware has some programming lectures online for free/ practice problems and Khan academy has free videos on programming. I would look at those to see if this is what you want to do.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Interesting. You know MIT open courseware has some programming lectures online for free/ practice problems and Khan academy has free videos on programming. I would look at those to see if this is what you want to do.

Yes, I'm going to start a free online course in Python programming this weekend to make sure I'm not too severely ******ed to handle the work. Also, even if it turns out that CS is not for me, I still think a more generalist IT masters degree could still be a good fit since the work involves more mundane/routine tasks and not as much "original thought" as SWE. In fact, I'm thinking that I'll probably apply for MS programs in both SWE and IT while I continue to research both professions, just to keep all my options open.

BTW, one of my preceptors is actively encouraging me to apply to the CS and even offered to sign off on an LOR that I can write for myself, LOL. The amount of negativity even among employed pharmacists is just depressing.

 

[deleted562805]

Yes, I'm going to start a free online course in Python programming this weekend to make sure I'm not too severely ******ed to handle the work. Also, even if it turns out that CS is not for me, I still think a more generalist IT masters degree could still be a good fit since the work involves more mundane/routine tasks and not as much "original thought" as SWE. In fact, I'm thinking that I'll probably apply for MS programs in both SWE and IT while I continue to research both professions, just to keep all my options open.

BTW, one of my preceptors is actively encouraging me to apply to the CS and even offered to sign off on an LOR that I can write for myself, LOL. The amount of negativity even among employed pharmacists is just depressing.

That’s great. Yeah, I have experienced what regret feels like when I was in rotations from employed pharmacists, particularly in the hospital/ ambulatory clinic. I don’t want to be at that age and have full of regret and not be able to do anything about it due to marriage/kids etc. it is best to make pivotal changes in one’s career when single

 

[Hedgehog32]

That’s great. Yeah, I have experienced what regret feels like when I was in rotations from employed pharmacists, particularly in the hospital/ ambulatory clinic. I don’t want to be at that age and have full of regret and not be able to do anything about it due to marriage/kids etc. it is best to make pivotal changes in one’s career when single

I agree; that's why I'm actively looking to at least start taking the steps to pursue something else now. I think something a lot of people aren't considering is that all of these entry-level MS programs in CS/SWE/IT will allow students to enroll on a part-time basis and take one course per semester, so I could always just start out doing that so that I still have time to try and get a pharmacist job for the first semester or two of the program. Then if I still haven't gotten anything lined up 6-8 months after graduation, I can transition to full-time status as a student. Another option is to apply to programs, get accepted to one, and then defer my acceptance until next year if I want to spend a year trying to secure a pharmacist job.

One reason I don't want to waste any time is because of my age (you might recall that I'm at least a few years older than you). Another reason is because out of all the c/o 2019 graduates I keep in touch with (including some residency graduates), I can hardly think of more than maybe 1-2 who actually have success stories to tell. The rest of them are still unemployed or underemployed. It's just hard not to think about putting a backup plan into action when you're literally surrounded by negativity and almost no examples of recent graduates who have managed to start legitimate careers as pharmacists.

 

[spacecowgirl]

@Hedgehog32 and any other P4s reading this thread:

From personal experience, I know how fun it is to fantasize about doing something different than what I am doing in the moment. making a plan for doing stuff in the future feels good. it's definitely good to have a plan B, it's a responsible thing to do. But making plans can also be a great way to procrastinate while still feeling good about it. Future giga always seems more disciplined, motivated, and better at time management than present giga, and present giga feels good about making decisions about what future giga is going to do.

That's all to say that spending more time and money on school just so that you increase your chances of getting a job years down the road when you already have an advanced college degree in hand is not entirely... rational. It is objectively easier, quicker, and more cost effective to find ANY job as a pharmacist than it is to complete a masters in computer science.

The pharmacist job market is rough, but making a plan to jump ship as a P4 before you're even licensed seems to be more about being overwhelmed by the difficulties of finding a job than about wanting to pursue a different career. I fully support leaving the pharmacy profession - there are plenty of good reasons to do so. But if you're not even sure what kind of CS or IT job you're really interested in doing - just whatever is more likely to land you a job - I think you're better off investing your time and energy finding a pharmacist job. Especially if your primary goal is to find a decent paying job.

This. All of this.

Hedgehog, I don't know you at all so take what you want from this and leave the rest, but you come across as being very indecisive and it seems like you enjoy the planning more than the execution. I think you're telling yourself a story that you want to gain more marketable skills and experience, which sounds good on its face but is a deflection from having to do The Thing. The job market is a very real problem, I would never deny that, but you haven't even finished school yet. Everything you said about not wanting to do a residency before, you would be doing if you went on for more school. I precepted many a student that didn't know when to stop information gathering, be satisfied with what they knew and then apply that knowledge. I suffer from that a bit myself. But when you're paralyzed by not knowing when you have researched enough, it can be a problem. That's a skill you can hone, however, it's not just a personality trait you have to live with.

I find it helpful to remember that most decisions are not permanent. If you go out into the job market this May and can't find a job, that doesn't mean you can't decide to go back to school in 6 months. It's not either/or. While you're still in school, it might help to use the school health service to talk to a counselor to figure out why you get stuck in planning mode. I suspect you have a nonstop internal monologue that needs to be harnessed for good (I have this as well). This will benefit you in all facets of life as the big decisions are only just starting...