How to proceed in the event of not matching for residency?

[Hedgehog32]

This. All of this.

Hedgehog, I don't know you at all so take what you want from this and leave the rest, but you come across as being very indecisive and it seems like you enjoy the planning more than the execution. I think you're telling yourself a story that you want to gain more marketable skills and experience, which sounds good on its face but is a deflection from having to do The Thing. The job market is a very real problem, I would never deny that, but you haven't even finished school yet. Everything you said about not wanting to do a residency before, you would be doing if you went on for more school. I precepted many a student that didn't know when to stop information gathering, be satisfied with what they knew and then apply that knowledge. I suffer from that a bit myself. But when you're paralyzed by not knowing when you have researched enough, it can be paralyzing. That's a skill you can hone, however, it's not just a personality trait you have to live with.

I find it helpful to remember that most decisions are not permanent. If you go out into the job market this May and can't find a job, that doesn't mean you can't decide to go back to school in 6 months. It's not either/or. While you're still in school, it might help to use the school health service to talk to a counselor to figure out why you get stuck in planning mode. I suspect you have a nonstop internal monologue that needs to be harnessed for good (I have this as well). This will benefit you in all facets of life as the big decisions are only just starting...

I appreciate the advice, although I would honestly have to disagree with your assertion that I'm stuck in planning mode. That's just the thing; I've actually been trying to do the opposite of more planning. To be more specific (and I'm not sure if you saw the thread I made a few months ago in which I described doing this), but I actually have been getting in touch with many, many hospital DOPs and recruiters about entry-level positions I might qualify for. I am being 100% honest when I say that out of 50-60+ people, not one of them had a positive thing to say about my chances of getting a job as a new graduate. Pretty much all of them said the same thing: every time they post an opening, they receive so many applications (including from experienced and residency-trained pharmacists) that they're probably going to have a hard time sifting through all the apps from experienced pharmacists and therefore wouldn't even consider an application from a new grad.

Of course, that speaks to the necessity (as you and others have pointed out) of doing a residency, right? Well, I don't know if you've seen me mention it on the forums before, but I worked as an intern from my P2 year until December of my P4 year (hospital fired all interns) and have kept in touch with the most recent group of graduates from the hospital's residency program. Out of 10 graduates who entered the market back in June 2019, only 3 of them have found jobs so far. One took a management-level job no one else wanted, another one took a new second shift position that had been created, and the third one was hired as a PRN pharmacist. The rest of them are STILL looking for positions almost 9 months later.

So having said that, when almost all the residency program graduates I know of locally haven't been able to secure jobs, why should I think my experience as a residency program graduate would be any different? From what recruiters and other pharmacists have told me, doing a residency should make me competitive for hospital jobs in smaller cities, and then after spending a few years working in such a town, I should be competitive for positions in medium-sized cities like my hometown, which I was hoping to be able to move away from at some point (sooner than later) because it's just a relatively undesirable area all-around.

And that's another thing... even if I did a residency, it sounds like it still wouldn't lead to an outcome I'd be happy with in terms of location preferences. As I stated in the preceding paragraph, I was hoping to be able to move to a NICER city than the one I'm from, not be forced to downgrade by having to move to an even smaller town for a few years, *then* move back to a town like this one, and then maybe after 2-3 more years hope to be competitive for jobs in bigger cities. I'm not even talking about cities like NYC, SD, Boston, Miami, etc., but just nice medium-/large-sized cities with a good standard of living.

It's a shock to most people here that my city is saturated, because if you Google it, you'll see that it has the distinction of appearing on numerous "Worst Cities to Live In," "Most Undesirable Midsized Cities," "Cities With the Lowest Standards of Living," and other lists, so the fact that a city like mine is saturated doesn't bode well for how bad things must be in legitimately decent cities. I was hoping to be able to move to somewhere better, not feel lucky to be able to eventually move back here after getting experience somewhere even more desolate.

On a related note, I know the most logical thing to ask is, "Why did you pick pharmacy when you have such specific location requirements?" To put it simply, my location preferences were different when I started pharm school back in 2016. Over the last few years, though, I have realized that I want something different than I thought I wanted when I first started school.

Anyways, all of this is just a long-winded way of saying that I just don't think I'm likely to end up with an outcome I'd be satisfied with in pharmacy. And even though I was a good student GPA-wise and did a few things to set myself apart from other students, I didn't do nearly enough in that regard given the level of competition, and that's on me to deal with. So why should I think that I'll have an easier time finding a job than pharmacists (including residency grads) who did much more to set themselves apart?

... On the other hand, I could complete a CS masters degree in less than 1.5 years (depending on school) for around $20k or less, get an intern job at a local tech company making $25/hr while still a student (I was told by a front-end developer there that they would absolutely hire me if I can pass their technical interview), and almost definitely get a job as a programmer/software engineer in a decent city *somewhere*, even if it's not NYC/Boston/SD/SF.

To summarize, this is how I look at it -- what does it say about the state of things in the pharmacist job market that working as an intern and getting excellent professional evaluations wasn't enough to even land a PRN pharmacist position, while brief chats with a software engineer acquaintance as well as a relative who works as an engineer for Cisco were all it took to get a favorable reception regarding job prospects from hiring managers?

BTW and for what it's worth, the pharmacists I work with even offered to write LORs for me if I do decide to apply to other programs. When I asked them if they'd recommend doing so, they mentioned the state of the job market and simply said, "It wouldn't be a bad idea to look into it." It's just getting so hard to stay motivated to not at least consider pursuing something else because there isn't one positive, encouraging factor I can point to when it comes to the job market or my prospects of getting a (non-retail) job.

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[Pharmacy Kid]

If I were you, I'd try to find a job for six months. Apply to IHS, call recruiters, set up alerts on Indeed, ask your preceptors. If after six months you don't have any bites, then switch to CS.

The job market is tough for sure. I have several years hospital experience, BCPS, BC-ADM, and it took me almost two years to find a new job back home on the east coast. I lot of it is timing and luck.

 

[Medicineman23]

OP, I applaud your move. Everything that can be stated has already been stated in this thread. One thing I'll say in response to the people saying "don't do CS, it's a hard field as well"; anything worth doing is hard. With that said, you'll still have a PharmD., I assume an active license wherever your located, and an open mind to the job market. I think the naysayers are misinterpreting your responses as you won't be applying for jobs just like any new pharmacy graduate should be, but I don't see that in your replies. Long as you do your due diligence in applying and trying to obtain a job, that's all pretty much anybody can advise you to do. Job searching can be your primary focus and a open eye with steady study in the CS field can absolutely be done! It doesn't have to be one or the other. Compare yourself to someone who's job searching for >6 months with no success; you'll have already 6 months progress into another field with expansive career opportunities (CS and IT). I call it being proactive and being prepared for the next 20-30 years of your life.

Comparing your replies to the pharmacy_sucks member, your both in the same boat (albeit he/she has some prior coding experience whereas you don't, but that can change in the matter of months if you really apply yourself!), yet I don't see the same apprehension applied to his/her posts. Best of luck, don't ever limit yourself!

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

OP, I applaud your move. Everything that can be stated has already been stated in this thread. One thing I'll say in response to the people saying "don't do CS, it's a hard field as well"; anything worth doing is hard. With that said, you'll still have a PharmD., I assume an active license wherever your located, and an open mind to the job market. I think the naysayers are misinterpreting your responses as you won't be applying for jobs just like any new pharmacy graduate should be, but I don't see that in your replies. Long as you do your due diligence in applying and trying to obtain a job, that's all pretty much anybody can advise you to do. Job searching can be your primary focus and a open eye with steady study in the CS field can absolutely be done! It doesn't have to be one or the other. Compare yourself to someone who's job searching for >6 months with no success; you'll have already 6 months progress into another field with expansive career opportunities (CS and IT). I call it being proactive and being prepared for the next 20-30 years of your life.

Comparing your replies to the pharmacy_sucks member, your both in the same boat (albeit he/she has some prior coding experience whereas you don't, but that can change in the matter of months if you really apply yourself!), yet I don't see the same apprehension applied to his/her posts. Best of luck, don't ever limit yourself!

I am not worried at all cuz I already have things sorted out. Outside of my CS and pharmacy commitments, I am also getting trained and doing an internship in clinical research while I am doing APPEs, so I should also be competitive getting a job in clinical trials industry, like CRA etc. CS will be like my safety net #2 and career booster in the long term. In the near term though, it gives me a peace of mind that assures me even if pharmacy and clinical trials careers don't work out. GATech starts mid-August, so that's something already set in stone. Whatever happens, the chance of me falling through the cracks of all three options back-to-back would be incredibly low, so I will just sit back and wait till all the dust settles. Right now, I am having too much on my plate.

I plan well ahead and execute without hesitation when timing is right, maybe cuz I trade stocks & options and developed that mentality over the years? I hate waiting around and hoping things to be handed over to me. Rather, I go after everything that interests me and prepare my safety nets accordingly. In the financial market, it is always wise to hedge risks when volatility starts to rise.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

This. All of this.

Hedgehog, I don't know you at all so take what you want from this and leave the rest, but you come across as being very indecisive and it seems like you enjoy the planning more than the execution. I think you're telling yourself a story that you want to gain more marketable skills and experience, which sounds good on its face but is a deflection from having to do The Thing. The job market is a very real problem, I would never deny that, but you haven't even finished school yet. Everything you said about not wanting to do a residency before, you would be doing if you went on for more school. I precepted many a student that didn't know when to stop information gathering, be satisfied with what they knew and then apply that knowledge. I suffer from that a bit myself. But when you're paralyzed by not knowing when you have researched enough, it can be a problem. That's a skill you can hone, however, it's not just a personality trait you have to live with.

I find it helpful to remember that most decisions are not permanent. If you go out into the job market this May and can't find a job, that doesn't mean you can't decide to go back to school in 6 months. It's not either/or. While you're still in school, it might help to use the school health service to talk to a counselor to figure out why you get stuck in planning mode. I suspect you have a nonstop internal monologue that needs to be harnessed for good (I have this as well). This will benefit you in all facets of life as the big decisions are only just starting...

That's also my concern for OP. When research and planning are done, it's time to stop thinking about it and get started with your actionable plan. Nothing is set in stone yet, until you get an offer, either for a pharmacy job or CS degree program.

Linus Torvalds, the inventor of Linux kernel and Git, once famously said: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." I think you need to realize that the earlier you start implementation, the sooner this whole career crisis thing will end.

 

[Hedgehog32]

OP, I applaud your move. Everything that can be stated has already been stated in this thread. One thing I'll say in response to the people saying "don't do CS, it's a hard field as well"; anything worth doing is hard. With that said, you'll still have a PharmD., I assume an active license wherever your located, and an open mind to the job market. I think the naysayers are misinterpreting your responses as you won't be applying for jobs just like any new pharmacy graduate should be, but I don't see that in your replies. Long as you do your due diligence in applying and trying to obtain a job, that's all pretty much anybody can advise you to do. Job searching can be your primary focus and a open eye with steady study in the CS field can absolutely be done! It doesn't have to be one or the other. Compare yourself to someone who's job searching for >6 months with no success; you'll have already 6 months progress into another field with expansive career opportunities (CS and IT). I call it being proactive and being prepared for the next 20-30 years of your life.

Comparing your replies to the pharmacy_sucks member, your both in the same boat (albeit he/she has some prior coding experience whereas you don't, but that can change in the matter of months if you really apply yourself!), yet I don't see the same apprehension applied to his/her posts. Best of luck, don't ever limit yourself!

Hi; yes, I will definitely still plan on getting licensed and applying to pharmacist jobs. Even though they aren't formal job applications, I've actually been getting in touch with hospital directors of pharmacy and recruiters over the last few months to ask about job opportunities for new grads, and essentially everyone I've talked to has told me that they're no longer considering new graduates for positions because of the job market.

I agree with what you said about getting a head start on beginning another graduate program, such as one of the CS programs I've been talking about. It's like you said: assuming it takes me 6 months or longer to find a job like it's been taking most new graduates, that's 6 months worth of progress I could be making towards earning a CS masters degree. One of the programs I'm applying to can be completed within 16 months, which is less than a year and a half. At my rotation site, one of the pharmacists' son graduated from pharmacy school in 2018 and took 9 months to find a job. Another pharmacist's friend graduated in 2017 and took 14 months to find a position. Unless I have really good luck, it's entirely possible that it could take me well over 6 months to find a job, so I could realistically be done with the vast majority of the CS program by the time I actually do find a job.

To respond to your last point about why people aren't giving the same hard time to pharmacy_sucks for making the switch to CS, I think it's because he has already put extensive effort into teaching himself coding and has been planning to make the switch for a long time, whereas it looks like I pretty much just came out of nowhere and said, "Hey, that sounds like a good idea, I think I'll do the same thing!" but without the same element of foresight or hard work.

 

[Hedgehog32]

That's also my concern for OP. When research and planning are done, it's time to stop thinking about it and get started with your actionable plan. Nothing is set in stone yet, until you get an offer, either for a pharmacy job or CS degree program.

Linus Torvalds, the inventor of Linux kernel and Git, once famously said: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." I think you need to realize that the earlier you start implementation, the sooner this whole career crisis thing will end.

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean about my lack of implementation of of having an "actionable plan." I have been exhaustively getting in touch with hospital DOPs and recruiters in the pharmacy community for the last few months regarding pharmacist jobs, and in regards to the CS and IT programs, all I can do at this point is apply to programs, wait until I hear back from them, and teach myself basic coding concepts in the mean time. Not to be rude, but if you think about it, the only difference between my situation and yours (keeping in mind that neither of us has pharmacist jobs) is that you have already taught yourself some coding and have secured an acceptance to a CS masters program, whereas I still need to teach myself some coding and am applying to programs that won't notify applicants of admissions decisions until the end of the admissions cycle. So with that in mind, there isn't really anything else I can "do" at this point to move my plan further along since I won't know until next month (at the earliest) regarding whether or not UPenn and BU will accept me to start either of their programs in the fall.

Edited to add: BTW, I got in touch with the one company in my city that hires SWEs, and they said that they are always looking to hire new student interns and would "absolutely" be interested in having me interview for a position once I've gotten a few CS courses under my belt. The only downside is that the pay seems to be somewhat low for a SWE intern position ($20/hr) but I live in a medium-sized city with a relatively low COL, and without a doubt, it's significantly more than I ever made as a hospital pharmacy intern.

What's amazing is that all I had to do was reach out to someone who works in SWE at the company who I'd never met or spoken with before, and that's all it took to receive a favorable response to my inquiry about getting an intern position. On the other hand, the only reason I got my pharmacy intern position a couple years ago was because a family member has been very good friends for decades with one of the pharmacy managers at the hospital I ended up getting hired on at, and even with that connection, I still almost didn't get the job due to the sheer volume of applications they'd received. In fact, almost every other student I've met during rotations has said some variation of the same thing: "HOW did you manage to even get that job?"

I also got in touch with someone I also had previously never met who works as a senior dev for a Big N company (so not FAANG, but still a well-known company) who also said they'd be happy to review my application for positions at their company and that they'd also shop it around to their colleagues who work at other companies (once I've actually taken a few CS courses, obviously).

Anyways, the reason I referenced those recent conversations is because I'm honestly just astounded as to how easy it was to develop two solid connections that are highly likely to lead to job interviews, whereas getting my hospital pharmacy intern position two years ago basically felt like the equivalent of capturing a bolt of lightning in a bottle. It's even more astounding when I compare it to my ongoing saga of contacting hospital DOPs and recruiters about potential entry-level pharmacist positions (easily 60+ at this point) which hasn't resulted in me securing even ONE potential job lead, whereas I only had to contact two random tech company employees to secure solid leads on intern positions.

I'll still keep an open mind and continue pursuing pharmacist job leads, but all I have to say at this point is... Dear God, please don't let me be too stupid to learn software development.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean about my lack of implementation of of having an "actionable plan." I have been exhaustively getting in touch with hospital DOPs and recruiters in the pharmacy community for the last few months regarding pharmacist jobs, and in regards to the CS and IT programs, all I can do at this point is apply to programs, wait until I hear back from them, and teach myself basic coding concepts in the mean time. Not to be rude, but if you think about it, the only difference between my situation and yours (keeping in mind that neither of us has pharmacist jobs) is that you have already taught yourself some coding and have secured an acceptance to a CS masters program, whereas I still need to teach myself some coding and am applying to programs that won't notify applicants of admissions decisions until the end of the admissions cycle. So with that in mind, there isn't really anything else I can "do" at this point to move my plan further along since I won't know until next month (at the earliest) regarding whether or not UPenn and BU will accept me to start either of their programs in the fall.

I think I should have made it more clear, pharmacy was never my focus and pretty much ranks the least in terms of my priorities, after P1. I have over a year FT pharma industry working experience, and I am getting recruiter calls from i.e. IQVIA for industry jobs regularly now as I am near graduation, both in clinical trials and clinical programming. For programming efforts, I actively track my hours and have invested over 1200 hours on projects, which I think made a huge difference in getting the acceptance, and will certainly matter a lot more for CS/data science internships in near future, and several IT recruiters have reached out to me to inquire my interest lol.

Pharmacist job? I honestly don't give a damn, and I don't even think about that right now, as I am more likely to secure an industry job in next 1-2 months, before graduation.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean about my lack of implementation of of having an "actionable plan." I have been exhaustively getting in touch with hospital DOPs and recruiters in the pharmacy community for the last few months regarding pharmacist jobs, and in regards to the CS and IT programs, all I can do at this point is apply to programs, wait until I hear back from them, and teach myself basic coding concepts in the mean time. Not to be rude, but if you think about it, the only difference between my situation and yours (keeping in mind that neither of us has pharmacist jobs) is that you have already taught yourself some coding and have secured an acceptance to a CS masters program, whereas I still need to teach myself some coding and am applying to programs that won't notify applicants of admissions decisions until the end of the admissions cycle. So with that in mind, there isn't really anything else I can "do" at this point to move my plan further along since I won't know until next month (at the earliest) regarding whether or not UPenn and BU will accept me to start either of their programs in the fall.

Edited to add: BTW, I got in touch with the one company in my city that hires SWEs, and they said that they are always looking to hire new student interns and would "absolutely" be interested in having me interview for a position once I've gotten a few CS courses under my belt. The only downside is that the pay seems to be somewhat low for a SWE intern position ($20/hr) but I live in a medium-sized city with a relatively low COL, and without a doubt, it's significantly more than I ever made as a hospital pharmacy intern.

What's amazing is that all I had to do was reach out to someone who works in SWE at the company who I'd never met or spoken with before, and that's all it took to receive a favorable response to my inquiry about getting an intern position. On the other hand, the only reason I got my pharmacy intern position a couple years ago was because a family member has been very good friends for decades with one of the pharmacy managers at the hospital I ended up getting hired on at, and even with that connection, I still almost didn't get the job due to the sheer volume of applications they'd received. In fact, almost every other student I've met during rotations has said some variation of the same thing: "HOW did you manage to even get that job?"

I also got in touch with someone I also had previously never met who works as a senior dev for a Big N company (so not FAANG, but still a well-known company) who also said they'd be happy to review my application for positions at their company and that they'd also shop it around to their colleagues who work at other companies (once I've actually taken a few CS courses, obviously).

Anyways, the reason I referenced those recent conversations is because I'm honestly just astounded as to how easy it was to develop two solid connections that are highly likely to lead to job interviews, whereas getting my hospital pharmacy intern position two years ago basically felt like the equivalent of capturing a bolt of lightning in a bottle. It's even more astounding when I compare it to my ongoing saga of contacting hospital DOPs and recruiters about potential entry-level pharmacist positions (easily 60+ at this point) which hasn't resulted in me securing even ONE potential job lead, whereas I only had to contact two random tech company employees to secure solid leads on intern positions.

I'll still keep an open mind and continue pursuing pharmacist job leads, but all I have to say at this point is... Dear God, please don't let me be too stupid to learn software development.

Pharmacy is a total POS, and that's why I use that name, and it is exactly how I feel about it.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I think I should have made it more clear, pharmacy was never my focus and pretty much ranks the least in terms of my priorities, after P1. I have over a year FT pharma industry working experience, and I am getting recruiter calls from i.e. IQVIA for industry jobs regularly now as I am near graduation, both in clinical trials and clinical programming. For programming efforts, I actively track my hours and have invested over 1200 hours on projects, which I think made a huge difference in getting the acceptance, and will certainly matter a lot more for CS/data science internships in near future, and several IT recruiters have reached out to me to inquire my interest lol.

Pharmacist job? I honestly don't give a damn, and I don't even think about that right now, as I am more likely to secure an industry job in next 1-2 months, before graduation.

Sounds like you've put a lot of work in to making headway with your CS career, so I hope everything works out on that front (considering how good the job market for devs is, I'm sure you will unless you kill somebody).

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you didn't choose to pursue a career in pharma industry since you have work experience in that sector and are getting calls from recruiters?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Sounds like you've put a lot of work in to making headway with your CS career, so I hope everything works out on that front (considering how good the job market for devs is, I'm sure you will unless you kill somebody).

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you didn't choose to pursue a career in pharma industry since you have work experience in that sector and are getting calls from recruiters?

I used to be wanting to advance career in pharma industry further, but not any more. As a stop-gap measure, maybe yes~ Who doesn't like some nice paycheck for a few months during transition phase? Long-term? probably not, unless it's in personalized precision medicine, which is mostly AI and big data any way.

Now considering Alphabet has Verily Life Sciences, and Apple has similar initiatives and studies. I rather pursue a similar pharma/AI role in high tech companies. I think I would be more valuable from a career development perspective as an IT guy who knows pharma well, rather than a pharma guy who knows IT well.

I think, the sector I choose to work for makes the most difference. Yes, I am likely the same candidate qualified for IT jobs in hospital, pharma and high tech companies. But which sector will pay me the most and makes my market value appreciate fastest? High tech for sure~ Hospital is a place for retirement and stability, but no career growth, no upward movement and noncompetitive pay really turns me off. When was the last time you see the head of a hospital is a pharmacist? When was the last time you see a pharmacist leading doctors? Pharma companies, despite all the initiatives, are falling way behind IT giants on areas like AI and big data analytics, but eventually they may catch up a bit and start poaching people from IT corps, with lavish compensation packages for sure.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I used to be wanting to advance career in pharma industry further, but not any more. As a stop-gap measure, maybe yes~ Who doesn't like some nice paycheck for a few months during transition phase? Long-term? probably not, unless it's in personalized precision medicine, which is mostly AI and big data any way.

Now considering Alphabet has Verily Life Sciences, and Apple has similar initiatives and studies. I rather pursue a similar pharma/AI role in high tech companies. I think I would be more valuable from a career development perspective as an IT guy who knows pharma well, rather than a pharma guy who knows IT well.

That makes sense. Are you considering applying for positions at start-ups? The guy I was put in touch with at the Big N company said that he knows of startups in Boston that would definitely be interested in hiring someone with a dual pharma/CS background. He said the only caveat is that the pay and benefits tend to be worse than what you'd be offered to work at an established company, although you usually get a decent amount of equity (which may or may not end up being worthless in the long run).

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

That makes sense. Are you considering applying for positions at start-ups? The guy I was put in touch with at the Big N company said that he knows of startups in Boston that would definitely be interested in hiring someone with a dual pharma/CS background. He said the only caveat is that the pay and benefits tend to be worse than what you'd be offered to work at an established company, although you usually get a decent amount of equity (which may or may not end up being worthless in the long run).

Northeast, on average, pay less than west coast. Even Wallstreet is now losing talents to silicon valley. Finance is getting taken over by tech via integration of AI and finance, aka Fintech, and everyone knows about it. SWE candidates receiving Morgan Stanley and FAANG offers will almost unanimously pick FAANG, according to opinion polls on social media.

My base (most family and friends) is in SF bay, so I am definitely biased for the labor market of the environment nearby.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

That makes sense. Are you considering applying for positions at start-ups? The guy I was put in touch with at the Big N company said that he knows of startups in Boston that would definitely be interested in hiring someone with a dual pharma/CS background. He said the only caveat is that the pay and benefits tend to be worse than what you'd be offered to work at an established company, although you usually get a decent amount of equity (which may or may not end up being worthless in the long run).

From Gatech alumni anecdotes, many are using returning offers of Microsoft and other tier 2 companies like Twitter as backup options. Unless I am so determined to get involved with healthcare AI and the health tech startup is very promising & give me a ton of equity and perks when I am done, I may just follow the mainstream.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Btw, my high school friend at Google was recently promoted to Sr. software engineer, making north of 300k a year, definitely out-earning family doctors and a lot of internal medicine MDs. He only has a cs bachelor degree, and he's not that smart tbh. It makes me feel jealous a bit sometimes but luckily I am cutting my loss soon, and hopefully I can catch up and advance farther, with combined pharmd & cs masters from gatech.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Btw, my high school friend at Google was recently promoted to Sr. software engineer, making north of 300k a year, definitely out-earning family doctors and a lot of internal medicine MDs. He only has a cs bachelor degree, and he's not that smart tbh. It makes me feel jealous a bit sometimes but luckily I am cutting my loss soon, and hopefully I can catch up and advance farther, with combined pharmd & cs masters from gatech.

I know what you mean about the feeling of having to play catch-up, but look at the bright side... at least you aren't as old as me (early 30s). I pretty much wasted my 20s not getting a legitimate career established, so now I REALLY am in the position of having to play catch-up and will probably never actually get caught up with people who went into CS (or even something like pharmacy) when they were in their early 20s. It is what it is at this point.

If your friend isn't that smart and yet got promoted to a senior dev position, then hopefully that bodes well for my chances of being able to learn CS.

BTW, I think I mentioned this already in a previous post, but there's only one company in my city that hires software engineers/coders, as compared to 6 hospitals, several LTC facilities, two psych facilities, and numerous chain and independent retail pharmacy locations that all hire pharmacists. However, in spite of the fact that there's only one local company that employs software engineers, there are still over 20 positions posted on Indeed for software engineers in my city, as compared to a whopping two pharmacist positions, which are a floater position at Walgreens (one year of pharmacist experience required) and a staff pharmacist position at CVS.

What's really scary about the state of the job market here is that my city is routinely ranked by websites and magazines as one of the least desirable medium-sized cities to live in, along with the fact that January-February is usually considered to be the easiest (or least difficult) time to find a pharmacist job since all new grads will have been out in the job market for at least 8-9 months at that point. If the job market in a city like mine is still completely saturated in February, then imagine how bad things are going to get when the next cohort of pharmacy grads hit the market in a few months?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I know what you mean about the feeling of having to play catch-up, but look at the bright side... at least you aren't as old as me (early 30s). I pretty much wasted my 20s not getting a legitimate career established, so now I REALLY am in the position of having to play catch-up and will probably never actually get caught up with people who went into CS (or even something like pharmacy) when they were in their early 20s. It is what it is at this point.

If your friend isn't that smart and yet got promoted to a senior dev position, then hopefully that bodes well for my chances of being able to learn CS.

BTW, I think I mentioned this already in a previous post, but there's only one company in my city that hires software engineers/coders, as compared to 6 hospitals, several LTC facilities, two psych facilities, and numerous chain and independent retail pharmacy locations that all hire pharmacists. However, in spite of the fact that there's only one local company that employs software engineers, there are still over 20 positions posted on Indeed for software engineers in my city, as compared to a whopping two pharmacist positions, which are a floater position at Walgreens (one year of pharmacist experience required) and a staff pharmacist position at CVS.

What's really scary about the state of the job market here is that my city is routinely ranked by websites and magazines as one of the least desirable medium-sized cities to live in, along with the fact that January-February is usually considered to be the easiest (or least difficult) time to find a pharmacist job since all new grads will have been out in the job market for at least 8-9 months at that point. If the job market in a city like mine is still completely saturated in February, then imagine how bad things are going to get when the next cohort of pharmacy grads hit the market in a few months?

In a city like yours, I bet it is bleeding population pretty fast, similar to Stockton, California, where it still houses U of Pacific pharmacy school lol.

I would consider any cities within 50 miles proximity of any pharmacy school "a pharmacy job dead zone". graduates surplus + sluggish local economy + dwindling population = no jobs.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I know what you mean about the feeling of having to play catch-up, but look at the bright side... at least you aren't as old as me (early 30s). I pretty much wasted my 20s not getting a legitimate career established, so now I REALLY am in the position of having to play catch-up and will probably never actually get caught up with people who went into CS (or even something like pharmacy) when they were in their early 20s. It is what it is at this point.

If your friend isn't that smart and yet got promoted to a senior dev position, then hopefully that bodes well for my chances of being able to learn CS.

BTW, I think I mentioned this already in a previous post, but there's only one company in my city that hires software engineers/coders, as compared to 6 hospitals, several LTC facilities, two psych facilities, and numerous chain and independent retail pharmacy locations that all hire pharmacists. However, in spite of the fact that there's only one local company that employs software engineers, there are still over 20 positions posted on Indeed for software engineers in my city, as compared to a whopping two pharmacist positions, which are a floater position at Walgreens (one year of pharmacist experience required) and a staff pharmacist position at CVS.

What's really scary about the state of the job market here is that my city is routinely ranked by websites and magazines as one of the least desirable medium-sized cities to live in, along with the fact that January-February is usually considered to be the easiest (or least difficult) time to find a pharmacist job since all new grads will have been out in the job market for at least 8-9 months at that point. If the job market in a city like mine is still completely saturated in February, then imagine how bad things are going to get when the next cohort of pharmacy grads hit the market in a few months?

My advice to you: get started on programming ASAP, if you are serious about it. It can take a long time to ramp things up, learning the basics, language syntax, know how to think algorithmically, and code. Programming is a learning by doing process, and you have to put in serious effort to get it going on a consistent basis. 4-5 hours of coding sessions per day, minimum, for at least 3-4 months. A lot of things, like how to design an algorithm, how to look for answers, how to efficiently read and understand API, how to implement, how to debug, etc can't be taught by anyone, and it's something you have to figure out yourself.

Once I realized pharmacy was a total POS after year 1, I almost completely neglected school and did bare minimum to pass classes, cuz I think it would be mentally unhealthy and futile for me to keep working as interns for retail or hospital, for which all of my classmates are doing anyway. There would be no competitive edge for me at all 3 years later. I played it conservatively (decided not to drop out) and at least I am getting that pharmd for doing minimum work loooool, and my GPA clearly reflects that. I went from 3.9 in P1 to 2.6 in P3, averaging just a little bit above 3.0 overall. But the plus side is also obvious, I got a ton of free time to learn, to code, to read up, to figure out where I am supposed to do after pharmacy school is over. Now, I don't regret much. The only regret I have is I didn't manage to skip more classes and do ABSOLUTE minimum for pharmacy classes, cuz I still ended up getting a ton of B, B+ and A-, not C or C+. Any grade higher than C-/C would be a waste of my time, and I would rather graduate with 2.0 GPA and divert time doing something more productive, i.e., another project or simply rest & sleep.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

My advice to you: get started on programming ASAP, if you are serious about it. It can take a long time to ramp things up, learning the basics, language syntax, know how to think algorithmically, and code. Programming is a learning by doing process, and you have to put in serious effort to get it going on a consistent basis. 4-5 hours of coding sessions per day, minimum, for at least 3-4 months. A lot of things, like how to design an algorithm, how to look for answers, how to efficiently read and understand API, how to implement, how to debug, etc can't be taught by anyone, and it's something you have to figure out yourself.

Once I realized pharmacy was a total POS after year 1, I almost completely neglected school and did bare minimum to pass classes, cuz I think it would be mentally unhealthy and futile for me to keep working as interns for retail or hospital, for which all of my classmates are doing anyway. There would be no competitive edge for me at all 3 years later. I played it conservatively (decided not to drop out) and at least I am getting that pharmd for doing minimum work loooool, and my GPA clearly reflects that. I went from 3.9 in P1 to 2.6 in P3, averaging just a little bit above 3.0 overall. But the plus side is also obvious, I got a ton of free time to learn, to code, to read up, to figure out where I am supposed to do after pharmacy school is over. Now, I don't regret much. The only regret I have is I didn't manage to skip more classes and do ABSOLUTE minimum for pharmacy classes, cuz I still ended up getting a ton of B, B+ and A-, not C or C+. Any grade higher than C-/C would be a waste of my time, and I would rather graduate with 2.0 GPA and divert time doing something more productive, i.e., another project or simply rest & sleep.

Are you DIPEA?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Are you DIPEA?

Are you Bernie Sanders? lol

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Are you Bernie Sanders? lol

Bernie Sanders? Heck no, I am not gonna cancel the $200k+ loans from all these idiots going to pharmacy school. Let them learn the hard way when they are unemployed and driving uber when they graduate. Tough love.

 

[Hedgehog32]

My advice to you: get started on programming ASAP, if you are serious about it. It can take a long time to ramp things up, learning the basics, language syntax, know how to think algorithmically, and code. Programming is a learning by doing process, and you have to put in serious effort to get it going on a consistent basis. 4-5 hours of coding sessions per day, minimum, for at least 3-4 months. A lot of things, like how to design an algorithm, how to look for answers, how to efficiently read and understand API, how to implement, how to debug, etc can't be taught by anyone, and it's something you have to figure out yourself.

Once I realized pharmacy was a total POS after year 1, I almost completely neglected school and did bare minimum to pass classes, cuz I think it would be mentally unhealthy and futile for me to keep working as interns for retail or hospital, for which all of my classmates are doing anyway. There would be no competitive edge for me at all 3 years later. I played it conservatively (decided not to drop out) and at least I am getting that pharmd for doing minimum work loooool, and my GPA clearly reflects that. I went from 3.9 in P1 to 2.6 in P3, averaging just a little bit above 3.0 overall. But the plus side is also obvious, I got a ton of free time to learn, to code, to read up, to figure out where I am supposed to do after pharmacy school is over. Now, I don't regret much. The only regret I have is I didn't manage to skip more classes and do ABSOLUTE minimum for pharmacy classes, cuz I still ended up getting a ton of B, B+ and A-, not C or C+. Any grade higher than C-/C would be a waste of my time, and I would rather graduate with 2.0 GPA and divert time doing something more productive, i.e., another project or simply rest & sleep.

I pretty much did the opposite of you as a pharmacy student; not only did I earn a super-rich GPA during my P1 year (I think I might have gotten a single B+?), but I also continued to put in tons of effort studying and working well into my P2 and P3 years. I have a well above-average GPA as a result of the time and effort spent, so hopefully that will help improve my chances of getting accepted to a program like the MCIT at UPenn.

To respond to the other part of your post, I will definitely make an effort to teach myself as much coding as possible (looking to start with Python, which seems to be everyone's recommendation for a good beginner language). Boston U actually makes certain applicants take an introductory-level pre-req course in programming depending on their background, so in a worst-case scenario, I'll have to sign up for that course to develop more of a foundation in CS.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I pretty much did the opposite of you as a pharmacy student; not only did I earn a super-rich GPA during my P1 year (I think I might have gotten a single B+?), but I also continued to put in tons of effort studying and working well into my P2 and P3 years. I have a well above-average GPA as a result of the time and effort spent, so hopefully that will help improve my chances of getting accepted to a program like the MCIT at UPenn.

To respond to the other part of your post, I will definitely make an effort to teach myself as much coding as possible (looking to start with Python, which seems to be everyone's recommendation for a good beginner language). Boston U actually makes certain applicants take an introductory-level pre-req course in programming depending on their background, so in a worst-case scenario, I'll have to sign up for that course to develop more of a foundation in CS.

MCIT has a bizarre catch-22 admission standards, which is super confusing to everyone. I guess not having any programming experience might benefit you. It is also more expensive than other well-established programs of gatech, uiuc and ut austin. I saw on some random reddit posts that MCIT is reportedly having problems filling up and retaining incoming class, and those who did get acceptance defected to other programs. UPenn admission certainly wanted it to maintain 10% admission rate, but I bet they can hardly keep up with that much longer to retain quality applicants lol.

It's actually a very good thing. Competition between schools always lead to dirt cheap schooling.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

When do we expect to see PharmD/MSCS combo offered by pharm schools, after PharmD/MBA, PharmD/MPH, PharmD/PA, PharmD/JD, PharmD/MSpharmsci, PharmD/Forensic science? Just wondering looooooool

 

[Hedgehog32]

MCIT has a bizarre catch-22 admission standards, which is super confusing to everyone. I guess not having any programming experience might benefit you. It is also more expensive than other well-established programs of gatech, uiuc and ut austin. I saw on some random reddit posts that MCIT is reportedly having problems filling up and retaining incoming class, and those who did get acceptance defected to other programs. UPenn admission certainly wanted it to maintain 10% admission rate, but I bet they can hardly keep up with that much longer to retain quality applicants lol.

It's actually a very good thing. Competition between schools always lead to dirt cheap schooling.

I've also heard that the program tends to reject applicants who they deem to have "too much" programming knowledge, so I guess I'll see if my lack of a technical background ends up being a good thing. I hadn't heard that they had been having a hard time filling their most recent classes. An SWE I know who took a look at the program's website said that the only potential downside to the program is that the MCIT doesn't technically "count" as an MS degree in software engineering, so maybe that's why some of their applicants are choosing to attend other programs instead.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I've also heard that the program tends to reject applicants who they deem to have "too much" programming knowledge, so I guess I'll see if my lack of a technical background ends up being a good thing. I hadn't heard that they had been having a hard time filling their most recent classes. An SWE I know who took a look at the program's website said that the only potential downside to the program is that the MCIT doesn't technically "count" as an MS degree in software engineering, so maybe that's why some of their applicants are choosing to attend other programs instead.

Yup, that's the major concern for the defectors. The curriculum looks quite shallow in depth and resembles more of a cs bachelor than a masters. They also say on their admission page that any applicants who can "test themselves out of more than 3 courses" would be deemed overqualified . I probably can test myself out of all their 6 core courses, and I am not even a working SWE.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Yup, that's the major concern for the defectors. The curriculum looks quite shallow in depth and resembles more of a cs bachelor than a masters. They also say on their admission page that any applicants who can "test themselves out of more than 3 courses" would be deemed overqualified . I probably can test myself out of all their 6 core courses, and I am not even a working SWE.

Maybe the MS in Software Development from Boston U would be a better choice? Obviously, Boston U isn't an Ivy League school, but the curriculum is focused entirely on software dev and can be finished in 16 months, as compared to a full 2 years for UPenn's MCIT.

One point in favor of UPenn's MCIT is their job placement stats, as the program has a strong track record of placing their graduates in positions at FAANG and Big N companies. Scroll down to page 10 for job placement stats for MCIT grads from the c/o 2018:

https://cdn.uconnectlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2019/08/2018_SEAS_Masters_Career_Plans_Survey_Report.pdf

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Maybe the MS in Software Development from Boston U would be a better choice? Obviously, Boston U isn't an Ivy League school, but the curriculum is focused entirely on software dev and can be finished in 16 months, as compared to a full 2 years for UPenn's MCIT.

One point in favor of UPenn's MCIT is their job placement stats, as the program has a strong track record of placing their graduates in positions at FAANG and Big N companies. Scroll down to page 10 for job placement stats for MCIT grads from the c/o 2018:

https://cdn.uconnectlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2019/08/2018_SEAS_Masters_Career_Plans_Survey_Report.pdf

The thread is a bit old, >1 year, but it did bring up some valid points.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Maybe the MS in Software Development from Boston U would be a better choice? Obviously, Boston U isn't an Ivy League school, but the curriculum is focused entirely on software dev and can be finished in 16 months, as compared to a full 2 years for UPenn's MCIT.

One point in favor of UPenn's MCIT is their job placement stats, as the program has a strong track record of placing their graduates in positions at FAANG and Big N companies. Scroll down to page 10 for job placement stats for MCIT grads from the c/o 2018:

https://cdn.uconnectlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2019/08/2018_SEAS_Masters_Career_Plans_Survey_Report.pdf

Oh, the placement report is probably based on MCIT on-campus stats. I think MCIT online doesn't have access to career fairs, which is pivotal to secure highly-coveted internships & job offers from FAANG. UPenn is quite shady in that perspective. I didn't realize that until I research a bit more on it.

On-campus recruiting is so different than open job openings btw, as recruiters often give huge benefit of doubt to anyone enrolled in the target school program. The expectation and interview process & difficulty is just not the same.

 

[Hedgehog32]

The thread is a bit old, >1 year, but it did bring up some valid points.

Hmmm, I found that Reddit thread to be a bit worrisome. According to a couple of the posters, it sounds like they consider the MCIT degree to be more of an IT degree than a CS degree. Aren't the classes primarily CS-focused, though? Would the MCIT degree qualify someone for both IT jobs as well as CS jobs?

My cousin is actually a database systems engineer and earns good money ($120k-$130k) working from home doing work that he says isn't really stressful at all, so if the MCIT would qualify me for positions like those, I think that could be a good thing. As long as I would still be qualified for SWE jobs, of course.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Oh, the placement report is probably based on MCIT on-campus stats. I think MCIT online doesn't have access to career fairs, which is pivotal to secure highly-coveted internships & job offers from FAANG. UPenn is quite shady in that perspective. I didn't realize that until I research a bit more on it.

On-campus recruiting is so different than open job openings btw, as recruiters often give huge benefit of doubt to anyone enrolled in the target school program. The expectation and interview process & difficulty is just not the same.

It sucks that the online MCIT students don't have access to career fairs. Maybe the program offered by Boston U would be better to do since it can be completed 8 months sooner than the MCIT?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

It sucks that the online MCIT students don't have access to career fairs. Maybe the program offered by Boston U would be better to do since it can be completed 8 months sooner than the MCIT?

Contact the admission office and ask for clarification. If they claim they consider the online format equivalent to on-campus, why aren't they allowing online students to attend career fairs if they want to? That's such a cheap move from UPenn, charging more yet underdelivering?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Hmmm, I found that Reddit thread to be a bit worrisome. According to a couple of the posters, it sounds like they consider the MCIT degree to be more of an IT degree than a CS degree. Aren't the classes primarily CS-focused, though? Would the MCIT degree qualify someone for both IT jobs as well as CS jobs?

My cousin is actually a database systems engineer and earns good money ($120k-$130k) working from home doing work that he says isn't really stressful at all, so if the MCIT would qualify me for positions like those, I think that could be a good thing. As long as I would still be qualified for SWE jobs, of course.

The issue is HR. HRs aren't familiar with degrees. What they do is they set a screen filter and whoever is left will be contacted for interviews. "Information technology" has a bad industry rep as someone who can't program well and can only deal with infrastructure maintenance, kinda like clinical informatics. They aren't the builders and are only the maintainters, and that can restrict what they can do & may disqualify them for pure SWE roles if the HR doesn't know anything about IT.

UPenn CIS has MSE programs in various specialties, so for some reason, they have to include IT name as part of the degree to differentiate the two.

 

[Hedgehog32]

@pharmacy_sucks I'm going to be submitting my MCIT application within the next day, and I was just wondering if you had any suggestions on creative/unique ideas for combining CS and pharmacy that I could mention in my personal statement. Of course, there are obvious career pathways, such as working as an SWE for a company in the healthcare sector, creating my own programs/apps that cater to healthcare industry entities or patients, etc., but I think it might be a good idea to mention some of the more "cutting edge" ideas for a career that combines backgrounds in SWE and healthcare. One thought that occurred to me is to discuss the application of SWE in molecular modeling to predict the PK/PD actions of new drug designs. Another idea could be to discuss opportunities associated with creating AI algorithms to aid in patient diagnostics and treatment decision-making.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

@pharmacy_sucks I'm going to be submitting my MCIT application within the next day, and I was just wondering if you had any suggestions on creative/unique ideas for combining CS and pharmacy that I could mention in my personal statement. Of course, there are obvious career pathways, such as working as an SWE for a company in the healthcare sector, creating my own programs/apps that cater to healthcare industry entities or patients, etc., but I think it might be a good idea to mention some of the more "cutting edge" ideas for a career that combines backgrounds in SWE and healthcare. One thought that occurred to me is to discuss the application of SWE in molecular modeling to predict the PK/PD actions of new drug designs. Another idea could be to discuss opportunities associated with creating AI algorithms to aid in patient diagnostics and treatment decision-making.

In my Gatech SOPs, I mentioned QSAR and systems biology modeling from preclinical stage, future potential for clinical trials simulation with AI, HEOR analysis, biostatistics, new big data jobs coming out from personalized precision medicine sector, etc from big pharma.

Supply chain management & data scientists jobs from pharmaceutical vendors and McKesson. Hospital & insurance company jobs for analysts and new hybrid jobs for pharmacist-analyst.

Then huge demand for data scientists and SWEs in the emerging health tech and Fintech sectors. I specifically talked about verily life sciences for AI clinical decision making, amazon pharmacy for future nation-wide centralized pharmacy distribution model and apple for implications of apple watch in Afib prevention, and their upcoming landmark trials.

Basically, I was trying to say I had one million reasons to study computer science and AI right now, and there will be endless opportunities waiting for me afterwards. I made it clear I will keep learning and keep applying if I get rejected.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

You can also talk about data science jobs and opportunities from CVS and Walgreens, and mention how it is useful to use AI to streamline their business model & eliminate the human factors amid their drug safety scandal, as a pharmacist insider, to improve their bottomlines.

 

[Hedgehog32]

In my Gatech SOPs, I mentioned QSAR and systems biology modeling from preclinical stage, future potential for clinical trials simulation with AI, HEOR analysis, biostatistics, new big data jobs coming out from personalized precision medicine sector, etc from big pharma.

Supply chain management & data scientists jobs from pharmaceutical vendors and McKesson. Hospital & insurance company jobs for analysts and new hybrid jobs for pharmacist-analyst.

Then huge demand for data scientists and SWEs in the emerging health tech and Fintech sectors. I specifically talked about verily life sciences for AI clinical decision making, amazon pharmacy for future nation-wide centralized pharmacy distribution model and apple for implications of apple watch in Afib prevention, and their upcoming landmark trials.

Basically, I was trying to say I had one million reasons to study computer science and AI right now, and there will be endless opportunities waiting for me afterwards. I made it clear I will keep learning and keep applying if I get rejected.

You can also talk about data science jobs and opportunities from CVS and Walgreens, and mention how it is useful to use AI to streamline their business model & eliminate the human factors amid their drug safety scandal, as a pharmacist insider, to improve their bottomlines.

Thanks, that's some great info. My application has officially been submitted (today was early application deadline), so I'll receive an admissions decision on April 15th. Also going to apply to Boston U's program and any other CS/SWE programs I happen to discover that are geared towards applicants who don't have backgrounds in CS.

BTW, didn't you say you came across an online message board post where people talked about how the MCIT program was having a hard time attracting candidates? Would you mind linking me to it?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Thanks, that's some great info. My application has officially been submitted (today was early application deadline), so I'll receive an admissions decision on April 15th. Also going to apply to Boston U's program and any other CS/SWE programs I happen to discover that are geared towards applicants who don't have backgrounds in CS.

BTW, didn't you say you came across an online message board post where people talked about how the MCIT program was having a hard time attracting candidates? Would you mind linking me to it?

How competitive is admission to UPenn’s MCIT online program?

Answer (1 of 2): Statistics state MCIT program, not specifically the online program but this gives you an idea. Fall 2001 MCIT admissions statistics 123 applicants to the MCIT program 90 candidates admitted 35 students matriculated Candidates admitted to the MCIT program: Average GRE - V 570/Q 7...

www.quora.com

I couldn't find the original reddit post I read, as UPenn shut down the old MCIT subreddit lol, but this one is good enough for statistical purposes. This is about MCIT on-campus, not online. Historically speaking, their yield rate (matriculated/admitted) is pretty low. It wan't until 2015 the yield rate finally exceeded 50%. I would expect MCIT online yield to be much lower, similar to other online programs. As a reference, gatech OMSCS had 87% yield rate in 2018-2019 cycle.

Sign the Petition

Penn MCIT Online to Attend In Person Career Fair

www.change.org

Coincidentally, I also found this. I guess some MCIT online students are obviously not very happy about their second-class citizen treatment by UPenn admin, as they are denied access to on-campus career fair and other recruiting events, which obviously contributed hugely to the program job placement stats, one of the key selling point for the MCIT online. So, take the official job placement stats with a grain of salt.

 

[Hedgehog32]

How competitive is admission to UPenn’s MCIT online program?

Answer (1 of 2): Statistics state MCIT program, not specifically the online program but this gives you an idea. Fall 2001 MCIT admissions statistics 123 applicants to the MCIT program 90 candidates admitted 35 students matriculated Candidates admitted to the MCIT program: Average GRE - V 570/Q 7...

www.quora.com

I couldn't find the original reddit post I read, as UPenn shut down the old MCIT subreddit lol, but this one is good enough for statistical purposes. This is about MCIT on-campus, not online. Historically speaking, their yield rate (matriculated/admitted) is pretty low. It wan't until 2015 the yield rate finally exceeded 50%. I would expect MCIT online yield to be much lower, similar to other online programs. As a reference, gatech OMSCS had 87% yield rate in 2018-2019 cycle.

Sign the Petition

Penn MCIT Online to Attend In Person Career Fair

www.change.org

Coincidentally, I also found this. I guess some MCIT online students are obviously not very happy about their second-class citizen treatment by UPenn admin, as they are denied access to on-campus career fair and other recruiting events, which obviously contributed hugely to the program job placement stats, one of the key selling point for the MCIT online. So, take the official job placement stats with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the links. It sucks to read that online MCIT students aren't allowed to attend the career fair, but sadly enough, even with that limitation I'm pretty sure the average online MCIT student has more job opportunities at graduation than the average (or even an above-average) pharmacy graduate.

The funny thing is, I felt 100x more confident and self-assured submitting the MCIT program application than I did back when I applied to residencies. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks, as I did interview at 2 programs and submitted my ranking the other day. Now I regret having ranked any sites, because I honestly can't see myself actually doing a residency, especially if I end up getting accepted to the MCIT or another CS program. My understanding is that if someone matches with a residency program and then backs out on it, they have committed a breach of contract and will undoubtedly blacklist themselves from ever getting hired on at that hospital in any capacity in the future. So now I'm desperately hoping that I don't match anywhere, basically.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I just checked out on the MCIT program admissions stats that are posted on the Quora page, and it looks like the program has maintained an approximate 10% annual acceptance rate throughout the last few admissions cycles. Those are pretty tough odds. I'll keep my fingers crossed that I get accepted, but I have a feeling I should go ahead and apply to Boston U's program while I'm at it, LOL.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Thanks for the links. It sucks to read that online MCIT students aren't allowed to attend the career fair, but sadly enough, even with that limitation I'm pretty sure the average online MCIT student has more job opportunities at graduation than the average (or even an above-average) pharmacy graduate.

The funny thing is, I felt 100x more confident and self-assured submitting the MCIT program application than I did back when I applied to residencies. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks, as I did interview at 2 programs and submitted my ranking the other day. Now I regret having ranked any sites, because I honestly can't see myself actually doing a residency, especially if I end up getting accepted to the MCIT or another CS program. My understanding is that if someone matches with a residency program and then backs out on it, they have committed a breach of contract and will undoubtedly blacklist themselves from ever getting hired on at that hospital in any capacity in the future. So now I'm desperately hoping that I don't match anywhere, basically.

Don't feel bad about burning bridges, really. I burned some bridges along the way, but I had way more doors opened too.
Be selfish and feel good about it. For some obnoxious places I felt I was exploited, I wouldn't hesitate. There are over six thousand hospitals across the nation, by the end of the day lol.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I just checked out on the MCIT program admissions stats that are posted on the Quora page, and it looks like the program has maintained an approximate 10% annual acceptance rate throughout the last few admissions cycles. Those are pretty tough odds. I'll keep my fingers crossed that I get accepted, but I have a feeling I should go ahead and apply to Boston U's program while I'm at it, LOL.

That's what I was talking about. It's all catch-22. 90% who wants an offer never get accepted. 5% accepted defected, and 2.5% matriculated not feeling that well about it.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Don't feel bad about burning bridges, really. I burned some bridges along the way, but I had way more doors opened too.
Be selfish and feel good about it. For some obnoxious places I felt I was exploited, I wouldn't hesitate. There are over six thousand hospitals across the nation, by the end of the day lol.

The only thing that sucks about burning the bridge at the site I'm most likely to match at is that it's the largest hospital network in the southeast, so I'd be getting blacklisted by a fairly significant number of hospitals. Then again, if I do end up completing a CS program instead, I guess it won't really matter (although I'd like to work maybe PRN, just so as to not totally waste my pharm degree).

 

[Hedgehog32]

That's what I was talking about. It's all catch-22. 90% who wants an offer never get accepted. 5% accepted defected, and 2.5% matriculated not feeling that well about it.

The admissions process doesn't really make sense when you take the stats into consideration. As an example, why don't they maintain a waitlist so that they don't have to worry about having so many accepted students bailing out after getting accepted?

I think that Boston U's acceptance rate is around 70%, so I probably have a more realistic shot of getting accepted to their CS program.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Thanks for the links. It sucks to read that online MCIT students aren't allowed to attend the career fair, but sadly enough, even with that limitation I'm pretty sure the average online MCIT student has more job opportunities at graduation than the average (or even an above-average) pharmacy graduate.

The funny thing is, I felt 100x more confident and self-assured submitting the MCIT program application than I did back when I applied to residencies. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks, as I did interview at 2 programs and submitted my ranking the other day. Now I regret having ranked any sites, because I honestly can't see myself actually doing a residency, especially if I end up getting accepted to the MCIT or another CS program. My understanding is that if someone matches with a residency program and then backs out on it, they have committed a breach of contract and will undoubtedly blacklist themselves from ever getting hired on at that hospital in any capacity in the future. So now I'm desperately hoping that I don't match anywhere, basically.

If you manage to get matched & MCIT acceptance, it would be a kinda awkward situation lol. Pharmacy residency doesn't overlap very well with CS or even informatics. The recruiter I talked to for the informatics position at the startup doesn't even know pharmacy has residencies lol. They want someone who are comfortable with SQL and can cross-function between teams. My informatics preceptors aren't even using SQL at all lol.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

The admissions process doesn't really make sense when you take the stats into consideration. As an example, why don't they maintain a waitlist so that they don't have to worry about having so many accepted students bailing out after getting accepted?

I think that Boston U's acceptance rate is around 70%, so I probably have a more realistic shot of getting accepted to their CS program.

Ivy schools have this weird elitist entitlement I guess. But it's definitely going to hurt themselves in the long run. Low acceptance = Fewer graduates = Fewer alumni = Fewer applicants, and it's a viscous cycle.

Silicon Valley hires the most alumni of these 10 universities, and none of them are in the Ivy League

Choose a university with lots and lots of students to get hired in tech.

qz.com

None of the ivy league schools cracked top 10 for silicon valley alumni hiring lol. Cornell, the highest for ivies, is only #15 on the list lol.

 

[Hedgehog32]

If you manage to get matched & MCIT acceptance, it would be a kinda awkward situation lol. Pharmacy residency doesn't overlap very well with CS or even informatics. The recruiter I talked to for the informatics position at the startup doesn't even know pharmacy has residencies lol. They want someone who are comfortable with SQL and can cross-function between teams. My informatics preceptors aren't even using SQL at all lol.

To be honest, I don't even want to do a residency even if I don't get accepted to the MCIT program. I'm just not feeling it at all. I would honestly rather take my chances with applying to a low-ranked CS program like FIT than do a residency only to end up busting my ass for a year all so that I can be competitive for hospital staffing positions in small/rural towns. BTW, the hourly rate for CS student interns at the tech company in my city is actually higher than the hourly rate paid to pharmacy residents at the local residency program, sadly enough.

It sucks that UPenn apparently has an elitist attitude towards their application process, but all I can do at this point is wait and see what their decision ends up being on April 15th. In a worst case scenario, I'll just end up doing Boston U's program, which can actually be completed in 16 months instead of 24 months like UPenn's.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

To be honest, I don't even want to do a residency even if I don't get accepted to the MCIT program. I'm just not feeling it at all. I would honestly rather take my chances with applying to a low-ranked CS program like FIT than do a residency only to end up busting my ass for a year all so that I can be competitive for hospital staffing positions in small/rural towns. BTW, the hourly rate for CS student interns at the tech company in my city is actually higher than the hourly rate paid to pharmacy residents at the local residency program, sadly enough.

It sucks that UPenn apparently has an elitist attitude towards their application process, but all I can do at this point is wait and see what their decision ends up being on April 15th. In a worst case scenario, I'll just end up doing Boston U's program, which can actually be completed in 16 months instead of 24 months like UPenn's.

If you can study by yourself or enrol in some super dirt-cheap community colleges (foothill college online) for 1-2 semesters to ramp things up, it's not that difficult to get accepted by gatech omscs. This pathway has proven to work and confirmed by many on reddit. gatech has outstanding local reputation in southeast 600 miles radius. if you live nearby, you can meet up with fellow students on-campus and attend many of their year-round career fairs. It's cheap too.

Pharmacy simply sucks~

 

[Hedgehog32]

If you can study by yourself or enrol in some super dirt-cheap community colleges (foothill college online) for 1-2 semesters to ramp things up, it's not that difficult to get accepted by gatech omscs. This pathway has proven to work and confirmed by many on reddit. gatech has outstanding local reputation in southeast 600 miles radius. if you live nearby, you can meet up with fellow students on-campus and attend many of their year-round career fairs. It's cheap too.

Pharmacy simply sucks~

I actually looked into the OMSCS program back when you first posted about it, but it sounds like it's really heavy on theory-based material (definitely sounds like a more challenging program than the MCIT). Would just one or two courses give me enough of a background to be successful in the program?

I also mentioned above that I'm applying to Boston U's software development MS. Even though they accept the majority of applicants who apply, they sometimes reject applicants who don't have enough of a beginner's background in CS and will require them to take a single one-semester course on introductory CS. If I do end up having to take the class, I guess it would also serve the purpose of making me more competitive for the OMSCS at GA Tech as well as for the MCIT (if I also end up getting rejected from the MCIT program). The only downside is that BU's intro CS course would be more expensive than one offered by a community college.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I actually looked into the OMSCS program back when you first posted about it, but it sounds like it's really heavy on theory-based material (definitely sounds like a more challenging program than the MCIT). Would just one or two courses give me enough of a background to be successful in the program?

I also mentioned above that I'm applying to Boston U's software development MS. Even though they accept the majority of applicants who apply, they sometimes reject applicants who don't have enough of a beginner's background in CS and will require them to take a single one-semester course on introductory CS. If I do end up having to take the class, I guess it would also serve the purpose of making me more competitive for the OMSCS at GA Tech as well as for the MCIT (if I also end up getting rejected from the MCIT program). The only downside is that BU's intro CS course would be more expensive than one offered by a community college.

1-2 semesters of full course load at let's say foothill college online should be alright. And that's 6-10 prereqs, more than sufficient.

omscs is pretty tough, but the benefit is also great. It's dirt cheap. It has established alumni network. It has CareerBuzz access even after graduation. year round career fairs. full social media support, piazza, slack, reddit, and LinkedIn groups. Since you live in Southeast, you can maybe even attend lectures on-campus and have in-person career counseling with career services. Atlanta has a vibrant off-line study group too, and you can meet fellow students in person. gatech faculty really treat omscs students as equivalent to on-campus and if seating spots allow, you may request to switch to on-campus, but downside is tuition goes up.