How will you escape the pit (the ER)?

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Now that's an idea. I didn't think about putting my kids to work for me to try to make ends meet and escape the pit.

1800s style! If the Oregon trail taught me anything, take care at Ford crossings, with snakes, and avoid dysentery

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sylvanthus]

2M at a safe withdrawal rate is about 60k/yr. No one (reputable) thinks that 4% swr is realistic anymore.

If you feel comfortable at 60k/yr for the rest of your life —- good for you. Most Americans would be lucky to have that. That being said, I don’t know too many doctors that spend that little annually — and I don’t feel that a lot higher spend is extravagant or ridiculous.

I guess it depends where you live in retirement - but just my property taxes would be 1/3 of that. And I live in a “medium” property tax area (plenty of places it would be half or more of 60k on any reasonable place).

meh my property taxes currently are between 6-7000/year. Not a huge deal, no income tax state, low cost of living area, wed be fine on 2million retirement if the house is paid off.

 

[sylvanthus]

Honestly, ill prob sound like a doomer, but I think the **** is gonna hit the fan by the time I retire anyhow. Climate change, worsening political climate and divide, etc etc etc. I fully expect the country to balkanize by the time I retire and my retirement income is likely to be one of the last things on my mind at that point. Will the dollar even hold value by then? Why im spending some money every year getting “stuff” that seems harder and harder to get over time.

 

[emergentmd]

I am sure many of us could live off 60K with no debt but doesn't seem like alot of fun other than "Free" cations. Plus what happens if crap hits the fan and we get hit with crazy inflation? That 60K may feel more like 30K in 20 yrs.

I like to have a large buffer thus I put my Fire with no debt at 5-10M PLUS passive income at 300K/yr.

 

[sylvanthus]

I am sure many of us could live off 60K with no debt but doesn't seem like alot of fun other than "Free" cations. Plus what happens if crap hits the fan and we get hit with crazy inflation? That 60K may feel more like 30K in 20 yrs.

I like to have a large buffer thus I put my Fire with no debt at 5-10M PLUS passive income at 300K/yr.

If there is such crazy inflation that im having trouble surviving on 2 million in retirement, than the majority of the country is going to be such a hot mess that those with money wont be safe and comfortable. Wont matter if I have 10 mill, a nice house, supplies, etc if im surrounded by impoverished and desperate people. I have no illusion that I could buy guns and tons of ammo, put a bunker in, and fend off the hoards while living some mad max beyond thunderdome fantasy.

Those that plan in retiring with crazy sums of money, knock yourself out man. Go for it, you do you. Im trying to strike a balance between comfort, spending time with family, not burning out, and retiring somewhat early. I dont think my approach is unreasonable.

 

[PianoMedic]

If there is such crazy inflation that im having trouble surviving on 2 million in retirement, than the majority of the country is going to be such a hot mess that those with money wont be safe and comfortable. Wont matter if I have 10 mill, a nice house, supplies, etc if im surrounded by impoverished and desperate people. I have no illusion that I could buy guns and tons of ammo, put a bunker in, and fend off the hoards while living some mad max beyond thunderdome fantasy.

Those that plan in retiring with crazy sums of money, knock yourself out man. Go for it, you do you. Im trying to strike a balance between comfort, spending time with family, not burning out, and retiring somewhat early. I dont think my approach is unreasonable.

What I’m shooting for as well. Not unreasonable to me at all. My wife and I are not used to having a lot of money so we feel flush now on attending salary. Will probably keep similar lifestyle to this going forward, should allow a decently early FIRE if we want it.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

What I’m shooting for as well. Not unreasonable to me at all. My wife and I are not used to having a lot of money so we feel flush now on attending salary. Will probably keep similar lifestyle to this going forward, should allow a decently early FIRE if we want it.

Early FIRE, or EFIRE, somehow reminds me of the American Dodgeball Association of America.

 

[doctalaughs]

If there is such crazy inflation that im having trouble surviving on 2 million in retirement, than the majority of the country is going to be such a hot mess that those with money wont be safe and comfortable. Wont matter if I have 10 mill, a nice house, supplies, etc if im surrounded by impoverished and desperate people. I have no illusion that I could buy guns and tons of ammo, put a bunker in, and fend off the hoards while living some mad max beyond thunderdome fantasy.

Those that plan in retiring with crazy sums of money, knock yourself out man. Go for it, you do you. Im trying to strike a balance between comfort, spending time with family, not burning out, and retiring somewhat early. I dont think my approach is unreasonable.

That’s the point though. To me 10M isn’t a “crazy sum of money.”

I have no illusions that anyone will be starving on 2M dollars but given the massive gap in wealth in this country — 10M doesn’t even put you in the top 1% of net worth. If you are planning to retire in 15 years it probably won’t even be top 5% depending on inflation.

I personally want to be able to live a top 5% lifestyle in my old age, but each to his own.

And I want to buy a better bunker and more guns to fend off the hordes. Just kidding.

 

[emergentmd]

If there is such crazy inflation that im having trouble surviving on 2 million in retirement, than the majority of the country is going to be such a hot mess that those with money wont be safe and comfortable

How much purchasing power has the dollar lost since 2000?
The U.S. dollar has lost 40% its value since 2000

Your 2M in 20 yrs is worth about 1.2M in today's purchasing power. If you feel comfortable retiring for another 30 @ 60 yrs old on 1.2M then more power to you.

To each his own and eventually everyone has to live with what they have be it 1M vs 10M vs 50M.

But someone @ 40 right now looking to retire at 60 yrs old with 2M to live off withdrawing 4%/yr = 80K or 48K in today's money.

Raise your hand as an MD if you would be happy retiring today with 48K/yr to live off. Most make 250K/yr Post tax which is a 80% reduction in lifestyle.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

✋

 

[cyanide12345678]

How much purchasing power has the dollar lost since 2000?
The U.S. dollar has lost 40% its value since 2000

Your 2M in 20 yrs is worth about 1.2M in today's purchasing power. If you feel comfortable retiring for another 30 @ 60 yrs old on 1.2M then more power to you.

To each his own and eventually everyone has to live with what they have be it 1M vs 10M vs 50M.

But someone @ 40 right now looking to retire at 60 yrs old with 2M to live off withdrawing 4%/yr = 80K or 48K in today's money.

Raise your hand as an MD if you would be happy retiring today with 48K/yr to live off. Most make 250K/yr Post tax which is a 80% reduction in lifestyle.

Depends…just have to have flexibility in life. I could retire by the end of the year with 1M in assets if i really really wanted to. So that would be 3 years post residency. It would require a little sacrifices, a lot of real estate investing, potentially self management of real estate assets. But it’s doable.

If all else fails, and i really really don’t want to work another day, then i pack my bags and go to algarve portugal, or Malaysia, or some part of Indonesia. Or just go back to the motherland in pakistan and live like a king on 25-30k a year - you know…have a cook, a maid, a driver, and never even get up to get a glass of water if i didn’t want to.

So yeah….2 million is plenty for retirement, as long as one is flexible. Heck i could make 1 million work if i really wanted to.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

I’d bet some people might find it life-altering in a positive way to live like they are dying, on a budget of $20K for 1 year, and/or like Walter Mitty. Some of us have done it and come through better people. Find that adventurous spirit that you once had instead of that upper middle class lifestyle that is really just a routine clock in clock out quasi-glorified coal miner life with a platinum credit card.

 

[BoardingDoc]

upper middle class lifestyle that is really just a routine clock in clock out quasi-glorified coal miner life with a platinum credit card.

Man, I'm really starting to think that you either hate your job or don't particularly like having money. Don't get me wrong, I get your analogy. I guess I would simply describe the same circumstance as: "lifestyle that is a pretty small number of hours doing a job that occasionally lets you do cool s*** and in exchange hands you buckets of money so that you can do whatever the hell you want in your off time."

There is certainly a spectrum of how one views EM as a job and how one views money. I'm pretty comfortable with the way I look at things and certainly don't yearn for the days I spent backpacking around Europe on a shoestring budget. To be clear, those were amazing times. I just happen to be very ok with doing the same trips of my youth, only this time I'm doing it with a family and staying at the four seasons instead of a 10 euro/night hostel.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Depends…just have to have flexibility in life. I could retire by the end of the year with 1M in assets if i really really wanted to. So that would be 3 years post residency. It would require a little sacrifices, a lot of real estate investing, potentially self management of real estate assets. But it’s doable.

If all else fails, and i really really don’t want to work another day, then i pack my bags and go to algarve portugal, or Malaysia, or some part of Indonesia. Or just go back to the motherland in pakistan and live like a king on 25-30k a year - you know…have a cook, a maid, a driver, and never even get up to get a glass of water if i didn’t want to.

So yeah….2 million is plenty for retirement, as long as one is flexible. Heck i could make 1 million work if i really wanted to.

Retirement living is certainly personal but I don't think the average person, let alone the average physician, dreams of the day they spend their retirement in Indonesia, Malaysia, or Pakistan. I'd probably rather extend my working career in EM so I can continue to live in the US. The average FIRE person probably doesn't need $5M-$10M because it's tough to go from being such a saver to all of a sudden being a spender but it's nice to continue to have options and flexibility with money and retirement.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Man, I'm really starting to think that you either hate your job or don't particularly like having money. Don't get me wrong, I get your analogy. I guess I would simply describe the same circumstance as: "lifestyle that is a pretty small number of hours doing a job that occasionally lets you do cool s*** and in exchange hands you buckets of money so that you can do whatever the hell you want in your off time."

There is certainly a spectrum of how one views EM as a job and how one views money. I'm pretty comfortable with the way I look at things and certainly don't yearn for the days I spent backpacking around Europe on a shoestring budget. To be clear, those were amazing times. I just happen to be very ok with doing the same trips of my youth, only this time I'm doing it with a family and staying at the four seasons instead of a 10 euro/night hostel.

I don’t disagree. I’m also maybe extra crusty coming off an unusually long stretch where I’d take almost anything over going back in for another shift right now. I have a pretty good job as far as EM goes. I really just push back on the notion that you have to have a massive pile of money or you couldn’t possible retire well. For those of us that save a lot, aren’t big spenders and enjoy the little things, it wouldn’t be a big change in quality of life to live off a much smaller amount. Trading away the job for more free time and not having as much money has more and more appeal with time. I splurge on nice things at times, but time and simple things have more value to me.

 

[thegenius]

I think the only thing we are saying asclepius is 60K is really not a lot of money in 90% of 'Merica. Not everyone needs a lot of money....you don't have to have Skidoos, a 6000 sq ft house or two homes...but 60K just can't take you far. On a daily basis it's no big deal, but it's hard to take vacations for more than 5K/year.....you are buying used cars and driving them for 10 years until they have 230K miles, and **** breaks down in the house and you can't fix it. You can't get that new roof you need because it costs 20K.

Most families of 4 with 60K skate by without a lot of savings and they really need to plan out, far in advance, things that cost more than 5K. Many of them can't get dental care (e.g. crowns) or elective orthopedic stuff like a knee replacement and their quality of life suffers. they are not miserable...they can be happy...but they sure as hell want a new knee or a new roof....or new refridgerator / freezor combo.

I for one, and I know others think this way want a better quality of life when we are done being a doctor. We work 80 hrs/wk for 8 years...then work 30-40 hrs/wk taking care of the forlorned who can sue us at any time - and often do. I don't want to retire from this madness making 60K/year.

 

[emergentmd]

Emergent at 38 yrs old was debt free other than his house. Had about 1M in retirement/assets. Had 3 kids, wife stay at home, and made 350K/yr. Emergent38 could have called it quits and retire. Kids all in public school. Only cheap road trip/camping vacations. Downsize house from a 5500sqft to a 1500sq feet home, take a equity and have 200K in the bank.
Emergent38 family would then be living in a 1500 sqft home, live off 30K/yr in a plot of land in the sticks, grow his own veggies.

Emergent at 50 yrs old have 8M in retirement/assets. Have 3 kids in private schools. Trips are plentiful, inflation doesn't even cause him to flinch.

Is emergent50 any happier than emergent38? Its debatable but the lack of money stress takes a huge stressor off his plate. Money in itself doesn't make someone happier, but being able to do whatever/whenever he wants sure is a great experience. In the past 2 yrs, emergent50 has been to Boston, Niagra falls, Monticello, Hershey park, Smoky mountains, NYC, Wash DC, Destin x 2, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Las vegas, Keystone ski x2, Heavenly ski. These experiences and doing it with the family/kids is invaluable.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Emergent at 38 yrs old was debt free other than his house. Had about 1M in retirement/assets. Had 3 kids, wife stay at home, and made 350K/yr. Emergent38 could have called it quits and retire. Kids all in public school. Only cheap road trip/camping vacations. Downsize house from a 5500sqft to a 1500sq feet home, take a equity and have 200K in the bank.
Emergent38 family would then be living in a 1500 sqft home, live off 30K/yr in a plot of land in the sticks, grow his own veggies.

Emergent at 50 yrs old have 8M in retirement/assets. Have 3 kids in private schools. Trips are plentiful, inflation doesn't even cause him to flinch.

Is emergent50 any happier than emergent38? Its debatable but the lack of money stress takes a huge stressor off his plate. Money in itself doesn't make someone happier, but being able to do whatever/whenever he wants sure is a great experience. In the past 2 yrs, emergent50 has been to Boston, Niagra falls, Monticello, Hershey park, Smoky mountains, NYC, Wash DC, Destin x 2, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Las vegas, Keystone ski x2, Heavenly ski. These experiences and doing it with the family/kids is invaluable.

Yeah dude, we get it. You won the game. Selling out to PE followed by getting lucky in the freestanding and real estate bubble will do that for you. You won the generational lottery. We get it, you don’t need to keep posting this stuff.

Sincerely,
A 36 yo millionaire who’s been to every continent other than then Australia in the past 5 years

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Yeah dude, we get it. You won the game. Selling out to PE followed by getting lucky in the freestanding and real estate bubble will do that for you. You won the generational lottery. We get it, you don’t need to keep posting this stuff.

Sincerely,
A 36 yo millionaire who’s been to every continent other than then Australia in the past 5 years

Brag or not, he's showing you a path to maintaining your current standard of living throughout retirement. It doesn't take selling out to PE, freestanding/real estate bubbles, or winning a generational lottery. It takes living below your means, buy and hold low fee investing, and maybe most importantly, some time. $8M by 50 isn't a pipe dream for many people here.

 

[emergentmd]

Yeah dude, we get it. You won the game. Selling out to PE followed by getting lucky in the freestanding and real estate bubble will do that for you. You won the generational lottery. We get it, you don’t need to keep posting this stuff.

Sincerely,
A 36 yo millionaire who’s been to every continent other than then Australia in the past 5 years

Name Fits. This is an anonymous board so I get nothing out of Bragging. I can really care less what people think or winning some fictional game. First off, we never "sold out" to PE but was forced to sell or be replaced. Second, I am just sharing my experience to help others take the leap rather than working for the man complaining about getting screwed all the time. Third, your bitterness is glaring that you may need some help. You can call it getting lucky with freedstanding or real estate bubble but that is the difference between someone willing to take a calculated risk vs someone happy to be forever subservient to a CMG then complaining. There is nothing wrong with collecting a weekly paycheck and be gainfully employed.

I see too many people who does well, never share it b/c they want to keep their secret sauce or not want others to succeed. I am just not like that, I am open about what it takes/took me. Being an anonymous board, it makes it easier to share. Even in real life, if someone asks for advice, I tell them everything I know. Better to help from experience than keep the next generation down.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

To each their own. Let me share my story - vague with some details for anonymity. I took the traditional path straight through financing medical school myself. Graduated residency towards the very end of my 20s. Paid off undergraduate and medical school student loan debt within 1.5 years by working hard and living frugal. Maintained living like a resident first few years out. Net worth over 1M by early 30s. Since then have seen that grow and started living a little more lavishly, although by many of your standards it would still be considered frugal. I just pulled up my annual budget and subtracted out my mortgage and disability insurance payments as those will go away in retirement. For the past 5 years I've averaged $54K in expenses per year with a family and a spouse that has a very average income.

We've infrequently taken a few nice trips over the past few years. I traveled a lot when I was young and don't have interest in traveling much currently. Maybe someday. I don't want my kids in private school. They play in the dirt for fun. That's how I grew up. I enjoy nice wine and expensive bottles of scotch. We occasionally eat out at fancy restaurants. I drive a newer luxury sports car and also have a pretty new second recreational vehicle in addition to our family vehicle. Bought a home years ago that is now worth over $1M. I don't spend much otherwise though. I wear the same old clothes for years. I use an old phone and don't buy the newest gadgets. You can have anything you want as an EP, just not everything.

We live well, just not according to perhaps some of your standards. I'll live fine on very little. I don't worry about unforeseen expenses like a new roof. Doubt I'd pay out of pocket for much in the way of elective health care. All of you are right. My choices may not be for you. If I hit 10M, then I'll count myself very lucky and not complain. It's not my goal though. The average American retires with something like only $100-200K. If they can do it. Then I think we can do it with $1-2M and live a lot more comfortably. It's all about how much you spend. I don't think the 10M path is for everyone, nor does it guarantee happiness. Some of my happiest days were in college, medical school and residency living on $20-25K/year. I live well on $54K/year now. It can be done. You can live well on 'little.' I've gradually been returning to a mindset like my earlier years and found my life less stressful with less materialism. I'll leave it at that and stop harping on my more frugal path.

 

[Groove]

$26400 = mortgage
$3792 = home insurance
$8000 = property tax
$9876 = health insurance
$8316 = disability insurance

I'm already at 56K and haven't even started on food, gas, utilities, etc.. lol

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

$26400 = mortgage
$3792 = home insurance
$8000 = property tax
$9876 = health insurance
$8316 = disability insurance

I'm already at 56K and haven't even started on food, gas, utilities, etc.. lol

By retirement the disability part should be gone, and hopefully the mortgage.

 

[Groove]

By retirement the disability part should be gone, and hopefully the mortgage.

One can hope. I love how the disability payments go away right around the time I'm almost certain to develop a disability. Whatever age I reach 4 million in the bank, I'm out. I'd strongly consider it at 2.5-3M. That's more than enough for me. If I can somehow talk my NP/PCP SO into marrying me, she's 11 years younger than me and I'd totally ride the sugar momma train into retirement since she's a workaholic.

 

[GassYous]

One can hope. I love how the disability payments go away right around the time I'm almost certain to develop a disability. Whatever age I reach 4 million in the bank, I'm out. I'd strongly consider it at 2.5-3M. That's more than enough for me. If I can somehow talk my NP/PCP SO into marrying me, she's 11 years younger than me and I'd totally ride the sugar momma train into retirement since she's a workaholic.

nice

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

By retirement the disability part should be gone, and hopefully the mortgage.

Yeah I think part of the issue here is that when people retire early, they keep a lot of the large expenses that someone who retires at 65 doesn’t. House might not be paid off, cars might not be paid off, may still have kids in the house. If a lot of those large expenses aren’t there, then it suddenly becomes a lot easier to live on a limited income.

 

[southerndoc]

Even if you "only" have $1 million in retirement, you can invest that in a high-dividend fund earning 5% and get $50,000/year just in dividends. Couple that with RMDs after 72 (around $40k per year). You'll be getting $90k/year the first year. This will draw down as the years go by, but even 20 years later you're still going to have a very sizable savings. If you can't live off $50k/year in retirement (when all your mortgages, cars, etc. should be paid off), then you have a major spending problem.

I say get to a mil as fast as you can. Let it sit compounding. $1 mil at 35 has way more power than $1 mil at 55. $1 mil at 35 earning 8% returns for 24 years (when you turn 59 and can start withdrawing from retirement accounts) will be worth >$6 million. Frugal for a while, pay off your debts, then when you've banked a mil you can spend a lot more and let the power of compounding work in your favor.

 

[doctalaughs]

Even if you "only" have $1 million in retirement, you can invest that in a high-dividend fund earning 5% and get $50,000/year just in dividends.

Dividends aren’t guaranteed…. Any more than stock market returns.

I don’t see why we’d recommend “aiming” as a high-income earner to accumulate that which a construction worker, garbage man, janitor, Starbucks barista etc *should* retire with after their careers. A UPS driver or postal worker would definitely end up better off if they invested wisely….

 

[southerndoc]

Dividends aren’t guaranteed…. Any more than stock market returns.

Dividends can be changed, but are usually very consistent (much more than investment returns).

 

[doctalaughs]

I don’t have any fancy investment strategies or any real estate positions besides my primary residence. I haven’t sold my practice to PE (yet) and had no inheritance to start with.

I spend plus/minus about 250k/yr (so yes, I live very nicely what some here would call extravagant) and pay about 120k in taxes. I use every single tax shelter that’s legal.

I invest about 145k/yr. Mostly in index funds, bit in tax advantaged bonds (more as I get older). Earlier in my career a bit less, now a bit more.

I’m about 15 years in and plan to do another 10 years.

Put it in a compounding calculator— 25 year career with average real return of 7% puts me at ~ 10 million. The stock market has done well so I’m ahead quite a bit right now of my prediction but suspect it will return little or negative in the next 5 years.

So in the end, I don’t see how you have to win the “lottery” as a physician to hit 10M. It’s pretty easy while spending plenty and simple, basic steady investing….

Plus this is retiring at 55 which I consider very early. Not to mention I worked another career for a bit before med school and earned next to nothing with that.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I don’t have any fancy investment strategies or any real estate positions besides my primary residence. I haven’t sold my practice to PE (yet) and had no inheritance to start with.

I spend about 250k/yr (so yes, I live very nicely what some here would call extravagant) and pay about 120k in taxes. I use every single tax shelter that’s legal.

I invest about 145k/yr. Mostly in index funds, bit in tax advantaged bonds (more as I get older). Earlier in my career a bit less, now a bit more.

I’m about 15 years in and plan to do another 10 years.

Put it in a compounding calculator— 25 year career with average real return of 7% puts me at ~ 10 million. The stock market has done well so I’m ahead quite a bit right now of my prediction but suspect it will return little or negative in the next 5 years.

So in the end, I don’t see how you have to win the “lottery” as a physician to hit 10M. It’s pretty easy while spending plenty and simple, basic steady investing….

Says the dermatologist.

You spend in a year what the average FP grosses and invest a little over half of that again. I'm an exceptionally busy FP in a well paying setup and your spending/investing money is about what I gross in a year.

 

[doctalaughs]

Says the dermatologist.

You spend in a year what the average FP grosses and invest a little over half of that again. I'm an exceptionally busy FP in a well paying setup and your spending/investing money is about what I gross in a year.

I only listed my spending to agree that I spend a lot and still have no trouble saving enough for that particular goal. If I made less I would definitely cut the spend significantly.

I get that it’s harder for a PCP - but possible by shaving off the spending portion and adding 5 years to the career. Saving 95k/yr with a 30 yr career gets you to the same point. Or 65k/yr on 35 years. I would think an average FP can save 65k/yr fairly easily (5500 a month). Probably need even less than that— as more of it would be in tax advantaged accounts.

Just pointing out it’s not hard at all for most specialists, and not some fluke. In range for all doctors really, unless you want like a 10 year career or something like that.

 

[TysonCook]

for most TL;DR
Invest early, don't spend a lot, have a plan.
The best thing I've found to help is the WCI website, "start here"

Physician Personal Finance | White Coat Investor

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Says the dermatologist.

You spend in a year what the average FP grosses and invest a little over half of that again. I'm an exceptionally busy FP in a well paying setup and your spending/investing money is about what I gross in a year.

It sounds like you'd have close to similar numbers if you spent half of what they spend. $125k/year is still a pretty nice living in a good chunk of the US. If one chooses to live in a VHCOL area, then they should do so with the understanding that retiring early likely won't be an option.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I only listed my spending to agree that I spend a lot and still have no trouble saving enough for that particular goal. If I made less I would definitely cut the spend significantly.

I get that it’s harder for a PCP - but possible by shaving off the spending portion and adding 5 years to the career. Saving 95k/yr with a 30 yr career gets you to the same point. Or 65k/yr on 35 years. I would think an average FP can save 65k/yr fairly easily (5500 a month). Probably need even less than that— as more of it would be in tax advantaged accounts.

Just pointing out it’s not hard at all for most specialists, and not some fluke. In range for all doctors really, unless you want like a 10 year career or something like that.

Sure but if you're going to work until you're 65+ you don't need to have as much saved.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It sounds like you'd have close to similar numbers if you spent half of what they spend. $125k/year is still a pretty nice living in a good chunk of the US. If one chooses to live in a VHCOL area, then they should do so with the understanding that retiring early likely won't be an option.

His numbers were post-tax, mine were pre-tax.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

His numbers were post-tax, mine were pre-tax.

He said he paid $120k in taxes.

Him: $120k in taxes, $250k in spending, $145k investing (I assume some of this is tax advantaged accounts)

You: $395kish gross.

If your effective tax rate is around 32% (state included) then that's about $126k in taxes. Say you spend half what he does ($125k). $395k - $126k - $125k = $144k leftover to invest which is pretty close to his $145k. Obviously these are rough numbers but the point stands.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

He said he paid $120k in taxes.

Him: $120k in taxes, $250k in spending, $145k investing (I assume some of this is tax advantaged accounts)

You: $395kish gross.

If your effective tax rate is around 32% (state included) then that's about $126k in taxes. Say you spend half what he does ($125k). $395k - $126k - $125k = $144k leftover to invest which is pretty close to his $145k. Obviously these are rough numbers but the point stands.

Oh, yeah I could do this were I so inclined but I make significantly more than is the median for the specialty (that number is somewhere around 250k).

 

[Kuratz]

Couple thoughts from earlier in the thread:

1. It does seem to me that there is a widening gap between who is profiting off the work and the people actually doing the work. The correlation between hard work/effort and success seems very loose, at least significantly decreased from prior generations. Physicians are a white collar example of this phenomenon compared to other similar fields compensated way higher or the admins/healthcare corporations. This is not sustainable and clearly why the socialism/anti-work movement exists (and understandable, coming from a conservative).

2. It’s laughable that people on here are acting like $2M and paid off house is peanuts (“poverty”) to retire on. Y’all need to get out of your upper class bubble and hang out with the types of people in the same socieoeconomic standing as your patients. That’s objectively doing VERY well compared to the population at large. No it won’t provide a life of luxury in retirement but money will not be a worry.

3. The amount of wealth in this country is amazing. I do think plenty of Finance/Tech/Law folks are able to hit $10M before 50 which would be extremely difficult for the average physician. The disappointing thing is when you compare the daily/weekly productivity of physician compared to much similar fields physicians should clearly be compensated more. Which brings me back to #1 where it doesn’t feel like there is much of a correlation between effort and success. Something is going to give on the larger societal picture and it will not be good.

 

[doctalaughs]

Couple thoughts from earlier in the thread:

2. It’s laughable that people on here are acting like $2M and paid off house is peanuts (“poverty”) to retire on. Y’all need to get out of your upper class bubble and hang out with the types of people in the same socieoeconomic standing as your patients. That’s objectively doing VERY well compared to the population at large. No it won’t provide a life of luxury in retirement but money will not be a worry.

No one on this thread argued you’d be in poverty or that 2M is peanuts. The only argument is that physicians SHOULD be upper class (same as your point #3) so “getting out of your upper class bubble” is a silly contradiction.

Just because you are doing well compared to the average person in the USA doesn’t mean that physicians with a pretty high income shouldn’t save in proportion to that high income….

In the same vein, if you were a Fortune 500 CEO with the ability to make millions a year for decades— I would also say it’s not ideal to end your career with “only” 10-20M….

 

[WilcoWorld]

No one on this thread argued you’d be in poverty or that 2M is peanuts. The only argument is that physicians SHOULD be upper class (same as your point #3) so “getting out of your upper class bubble” is a silly contradiction.

Just because you are doing well compared to the average person in the USA doesn’t mean that physicians with a pretty high income shouldn’t save in proportion to that high income….

In the same vein, if you were a Fortune 500 CEO with the ability to make millions a year for decades— I would also say it’s not ideal to end your career with “only” 10-20M….

At what point does the extra money stop being worth the extra effort? Is retiring with 25M going to make me significantly happier than retiring with 20M? I sort of doubt it.

 

[Mbekweni]

How many grads fresh out of residency these days are hustling? I feel like out of my cohort of 12 less than half are pushing to get a good head start even working full time (don't know if they are saving an appropriate percentage). A disproportionate amount are working 8-10 shifts and living the good life (though some with a wealthy/high earning spouse). Immediate part time can certainly make ends meet but leaves more risk should physician salaries decrease dramatically, less time for compounding etc. Their lives do seem pretty good though in the moment and if they can work that way until 65 maybe it's a better path?

 

[WilcoWorld]

How many grads fresh out of residency these days are hustling? I feel like out of my cohort of 12 less than half are pushing to get a good head start even working full time (don't know if they are saving an appropriate percentage). A disproportionate amount are working 8-10 shifts and living the good life (though some with a wealthy/high earning spouse). Immediate part time can certainly make ends meet but leaves more risk should physician salaries decrease dramatically, less time for compounding etc. Their lives do seem pretty good though in the moment and if they can work that way until 65 maybe it's a better path?

I think your post is evidence that it's a very personalized decision...and that there are many "right" ways.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

I think your post is evidence that it's a very personalized decision...and that there are many "right" ways.

Agreed 100%. I'd rather make a bit less money for decades and enjoy my life along the way than "hustle" and sacrifice my 30s and 40s to medicine. Medicine already got my 20s--that's more than enough.

 

[sylvanthus]

How many grads fresh out of residency these days are hustling? I feel like out of my cohort of 12 less than half are pushing to get a good head start even working full time (don't know if they are saving an appropriate percentage). A disproportionate amount are working 8-10 shifts and living the good life (though some with a wealthy/high earning spouse). Immediate part time can certainly make ends meet but leaves more risk should physician salaries decrease dramatically, less time for compounding etc. Their lives do seem pretty good though in the moment and if they can work that way until 65 maybe it's a better path?

Is this by choice or lack of fulltime iobs?

 

[DoctorMD1]

How many grads fresh out of residency these days are hustling? I feel like out of my cohort of 12 less than half are pushing to get a good head start even working full time (don't know if they are saving an appropriate percentage). A disproportionate amount are working 8-10 shifts and living the good life (though some with a wealthy/high earning spouse). Immediate part time can certainly make ends meet but leaves more risk should physician salaries decrease dramatically, less time for compounding etc. Their lives do seem pretty good though in the moment and if they can work that way until 65 maybe it's a better path?

sounds like a better plan. How much do you guys make on average in ER these days? rad here

 

[cyanide12345678]

sounds like a better plan. How much do you guys make on average in ER these days? rad here

Average i believe is somewhere between 350 to 400k. A lot depends on location and the number of hours worked.

I personally make a little over 370k plus benefits and quarterly bonuses around 4-5k.

This is a pay cut from my last job where i made 450k as 1099. But significantly less volume in a rural ER setting with 8k annual volume. Seen 8 patients so far in 8 hours (12 hour shift) about to go in for a nap now.

 

[thegenius]

$26400 = mortgage
$3792 = home insurance
$8000 = property tax
$9876 = health insurance
$8316 = disability insurance

I'm already at 56K and haven't even started on food, gas, utilities, etc.. lol

$54,720 = mortgage
$3,500 = home insurance
$17,500 = property tax
$22,600 = health insurance (next year will be $6000)
$9,800 = disability insurance

at 106K

 

[NITRAS]

Some of yall have some nice houses.

 

[Groove]

Some of yall have some nice houses.

@thegenius mortgage actually only puts the house worth slightly north of 1 mill which would be totally respectable and affordable with our kind of salary. It's that health insurance. Yikes! It just goes to show that 100K can go pretty quickly with our kinds of expenses as 1099 docs even before we start spending on any vacations or leisure stuff... Disability, health insurance, professional fees, business expenses can put a serious dent in the piggy bank.