How would you define a non-traditional veterinary student?

[Gemgrrrl]

I'm considering starting a student organization for non-traditional veterinary students at my school, and was curious to know what the student community's definition of "non-traditional" is, and why.

Undergraduate universities typically define non-traditional (NT) students as students who are 25 years of age or older when they start (or go back) to school. I think many human and veterinary schools use this same definition, and I feel that this is a bit off the mark. In undergrad, an NT would be 7 years older than a traditional student to fit the definition. In veterinary school, matriculating students are an average of 24 years old, so it doesn't make sense to me to apply the same definition to both.

I'm less inclined to think about it solely in terms of age, and more along the lines of factors that present an additional set of challenges to the student. Age is definitely a factor when you're more than a few years older than your peers (I'm thinking ~ 30 years old when matriculating). I would add to that any of the following: students who are financially independent for financial aid purposes, have at least part-time employment outside the university, have dependents other than a spouse (such as a parent, grandparent or sibling), and/or have dependent children.

These things all present a unique set of challenges to NT students. These factors might make it more difficult to relate to and/or find support among their traditional peers. They also present time management challenges that might make it more difficult to find study partners, participate in extra-curricular activities like shadowing, rounds, and seminars, and limit opportunities for things like summer internships and travel programs.

I'm interested to hear what the community thinks of when they think "NT". I'm also interested in hearing about any unique challenges NTs faced during veterinary school, and if there is anything they think schools could to to better support NT students. Did/does your school have an organization for NT students? Do you wish they did?

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[rockatiel]

I don't think I can properly define NT but I'm going to follow this because I find it interesting. I was under the impression that NT was someone that didn't start vet school directly out of undergrad, but I'm interested in others opinions.

Also, there's now a Facebook group for NT vet/pre vet students. I saw it last week 🙂

 

[lhmhtd]

I don't think I can properly define NT but I'm going to follow this because I find it interesting. I was under the impression that NT was someone that didn't start vet school directly out of undergrad, but I'm interested in others opinions.

Also, there's now a Facebook group for NT vet/pre vet students. I saw it last week 🙂

Same here!
What's the group called?

EDIT: found the group. It was hidden. Are you part of it? I just requested to join.

 

[Your User Name Here]

Traditional = Anyone who did 4 years of undergrad and started vet school within a year of getting their bachelors.

Non-trad = Everyone else.



That's what I use, but others have other definitions.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I think that's the way most people think of NT. But, given that many students have to apply more than once cycle to get in, I'm not sure that 1-2 years between undergrad and matriculation is really that far outside the norm.

More importantly, how much different is the veterinary school experience for a student that matriculated straight out of undergrad than that of a student who applied 1-2 more times? In my experience, those students seem to integrate pretty seamlessly with their peers.

To me, NT means that the student has a different set of experiences and challenges during veterinary school due to a status that remains with them the whole 4 years. The number of years between undergrad and matriculation is a one-time thing, that doesn't necessarily affect anything else about the veterinary school experience.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

Traditional = Anyone who did 4 years of undergrad and started vet school within a year of getting their bachelors.

Non-trad = Everyone else.

So if Mary gets her bachelor's, travels for a year and a half, and then goes to vet school, she's non-traditional? Age should be a determining factor, because that usually coincides with other career/life paths before deciding to come back to academia.

I mean, if we start going down this road, everyone can be "non-traditional." I can be NT because I'm going to vet school in a wheelchair. Joe can be non-traditional because he grew up in financial hardship. Jenny can be non-traditional because she has a kid and is going through vet school as a mother. Xiong can be non-traditional because he was born in another country and English isn't his first language. It will lose its meaning at that point.

No one fits a mold, but I look at non-traditional as a timeline through academia. If many years/different careers/life experiences interrupted a relatively straight-shot path to vet school, you're NT.

 

[lhmhtd]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/515576845289439/

If anyone's interested, here's the fb group rocky was talking about. Idk if it's any good but I just requested to join. Sometimes these things provide some good resources

 

[WildZoo]

So if Mary gets her bachelor's, travels for a year and a half, and then goes to vet school, she's non-traditional? Age should be a determining factor, because that usually coincides with other career/life paths before deciding to come back to academia.

I mean, if we start going down this road, everyone can be "non-traditional." I can be NT because I'm going to vet school in a wheelchair. Joe can be non-traditional because he grew up in financial hardship. Jenny can be non-traditional because she has a kid and is going through vet school as a mother. Xiong can be non-traditional because he was born in another country and English isn't his first language. It will lose its meaning at that point.

No one fits a mold, but I look at non-traditional as a timeline through academia. If many years/different careers/life experiences interrupted a relatively straight-shot path to vet school, you're NT.

Or, DubZ is non-traditional because she's starting vet school at the age of eleventeen 😱

 

[Gemgrrrl]

So if Mary gets her bachelor's, travels for a year and a half, and then goes to vet school, she's non-traditional? Age should be a determining factor, because that usually coincides with other career/life paths before deciding to come back to academia.

I mean, if we start going down this road, everyone can be "non-traditional." I can be NT because I'm going to vet school in a wheelchair. Joe can be non-traditional because he grew up in financial hardship. Jenny can be non-traditional because she has a kid and is going through vet school as a mother. Xiong can be non-traditional because he was born in another country and English isn't his first language. It will lose its meaning at that point.

No one fits a mold, but I look at non-traditional as a timeline through academia. If many years/different careers/life experiences interrupted a relatively straight-shot path to vet school, you're NT.

I see your point. So where would you draw the line if you just used age as a factor? Do you agree with the 25 and older definition, or do you think it's older?

 

[rockatiel]

That's why I think this discussion needs to be had--the definition is surely subject to change on situation.

 

[Squeaksmom]

I don't know that I have a precise definition, but I'm pretty sure I'm NT!

Late 30's, previous career, spouse, child, mortgage.... I like to say that even though this was always the destination I had in mind, I took the scenic route. 🙂

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I don't know that I have a precise definition, but I'm pretty sure I'm NT!

Late 30's, previous career, spouse, child, mortgage.... I like to say that even though this was always the destination I had in mind, I took the scenic route. 🙂

As a vet student, how to you think this has impacted your school experience? Does your school have an NT organization? Do you wish it did? What kinds of things would be helpful?

 

[missdarjeeling]

More importantly, how much different is the veterinary school experience for a student that matriculated straight out of undergrad than that of a student who applied 1-2 more times? In my experience, those students seem to integrate pretty seamlessly with their peers.

To me, NT means that the student has a different set of experiences and challenges during veterinary school due to a status that remains with them the whole 4 years. The number of years between undergrad and matriculation is a one-time thing, that doesn't necessarily affect anything else about the veterinary school experience.

Agreed. To me, NT mostly means career changers, older students (30+ for vet school), and those with spouses and/or dependents. Even then, there are likely students with spouses who I'd probably consider traditional who just happened to get married at a very young age. To me, "traditional" means taking a more or less direct path towards vet med from young adulthood, even if that means a few years in between undergrad and matriculation.

I can't answer the rest of your questions as far as vet school goes, but the college in which I did most of my pre-reqs had a very, very tiny non-traditional population. The vast majority of students were traditional, coming straight from high school, transferring from community college, or attending college for the first time after taking a year or two after high school to do whatever. In my time there, I met one student who was over 25, and she was doing just a summer class. It was different since I was a commuter, but overall, I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb a lot of the time. There were no organizations on campus for non-traditional students, and managing the bureaucracy could be difficult sometimes because administrators assumed everyone coming through was a typical student.

I can't really think of many things that would've been helpful in that context. A group of students in similar situations would've been nice so I could make some connections on campus. And it would've been nice if faculty and staff had more awareness of the fact that, hey, it is possible that some students might be non-traditional and might be dealing with extra challenges and obstacles. It got frustrating having to explain my situation over and over again to various offices whenever issues would crop up. One of my first interactions was with the department administrator when I was trying to get into a lab section. She said to sign up for an evening section, which was the only open one at the time, and I told her I couldn't because I worked evenings. She smiled at me and in this syrupy, condescending voice said, "Well, school should be your priority!". Okay, then you go ahead and pay my rent, lady. Things like that can be doubly frustrating when you've been a functional adult for a while, but I imagine this sort of situation doesn't crop up very often in professional schools.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Agreed. To me, NT mostly means career changers, older students (30+ for vet school), and those with spouses and/or dependents. Even then, there are likely students with spouses who I'd probably consider traditional who just happened to get married at a very young age. To me, "traditional" means taking a more or less direct path towards vet med from young adulthood, even if that means a few years in between undergrad and matriculation.

I can't answer the rest of your questions as far as vet school goes, but the college in which I did most of my pre-reqs had a very, very tiny non-traditional population. The vast majority of students were traditional, coming straight from high school, transferring from community college, or attending college for the first time after taking a year or two after high school to do whatever. In my time there, I met one student who was over 25, and she was doing just a summer class. It was different since I was a commuter, but overall, I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb a lot of the time. There were no organizations on campus for non-traditional students, and managing the bureaucracy could be difficult sometimes because administrators assumed everyone coming through was a typical student.

I can't really think of many things that would've been helpful in that context. A group of students in similar situations would've been nice so I could make some connections on campus. And it would've been nice if faculty and staff had more awareness of the fact that, hey, it is possible that some students might be non-traditional and might be dealing with extra challenges and obstacles. It got frustrating having to explain my situation over and over again to various offices whenever issues would crop up. One of my first interactions was with the department administrator when I was trying to get into a lab section. She said to sign up for an evening section, which was the only open one at the time, and I told her I couldn't because I worked evenings. She smiled at me and in this syrupy, condescending voice said, "Well, school should be your priority!". Okay, then you go ahead and pay my rent, lady. Things like that can be doubly frustrating when you've been a functional adult for a while, but I imagine this sort of situation doesn't crop up very often in professional schools.

Even as a traditional undergrad, I had to work to pay rent and pay for school. (A lot of bad crap happened my senior year of high school so I sent money home, or more technically had it stolen from my accounts by my mother) Definitely had professors not get that.

My main advisor spotted me on campus over the summer and asked if I was working. I said yes. Her response was "Oh good! I think it's great when parents instill responsibility in their kids. Just make sure you tell your parents to let you quit at least 2 weeks before school starts again so you get a little break."

I wanted to punch her. I was working 80+ hours a week, full time at 2 jobs, barely making rent and debating whether I should drop out or go homeless for the semester so I could pay the semester tuition and stay in school. (Private college. Crappy financial support system when things hit the fan)

 

[Your User Name Here]

So if Mary gets her bachelor's, travels for a year and a half, and then goes to vet school, she's non-traditional? Age should be a determining factor, because that usually coincides with other career/life paths before deciding to come back to academia.

I mean, if we start going down this road, everyone can be "non-traditional." I can be NT because I'm going to vet school in a wheelchair. Joe can be non-traditional because he grew up in financial hardship. Jenny can be non-traditional because she has a kid and is going through vet school as a mother. Xiong can be non-traditional because he was born in another country and English isn't his first language. It will lose its meaning at that point.

No one fits a mold, but I look at non-traditional as a timeline through academia. If many years/different careers/life experiences interrupted a relatively straight-shot path to vet school, you're NT.

It's the simplest possible test, and like all simple tests, suffers when anything out of the usual is brought before it.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I'd never even heard the term "non-traditional" until I joined here -- there was no real distinction made when I was in vet school (ages in my class varied by almost 20 years from youngest to oldest), though in undergrad those that were more than a few of years older than others were called "mature students".....even then, the only real apparent distinction for students was that there was a separate social lounge to meet and/or study. I'm not sure that it really matters, and I can't think of why a school would be or should be moved to do anything special to support a group as diverse as NT students. They are far too heterogeneous a group.......so why does this discussion matter or "need to be discussed", as rocketiel posted? Why do we need to define it at all?

 

[DVMDream]

I would add to that any of the following: students who are financially independent for financial aid purposes, have at least part-time employment outside the university, have dependents other than a spouse (such as a parent, grandparent or sibling), and/or have dependent children.

Given this definition, I think greater than 50% of the student body would be "non-traditional". Give that definition, I've been "NT" since I was 18 and possibly before that.

 

[Shepherd Lover]

I'm considering starting a student organization for non-traditional veterinary students at my school, and was curious to know what the student community's definition of "non-traditional" is, and why.

Undergraduate universities typically define non-traditional (NT) students as students who are 25 years of age or older when they start (or go back) to school. I think many human and veterinary schools use this same definition, and I feel that this is a bit off the mark. In undergrad, an NT would be 7 years older than a traditional student to fit the definition. In veterinary school, matriculating students are an average of 24 years old, so it doesn't make sense to me to apply the same definition to both.

I'm less inclined to think about it solely in terms of age, and more along the lines of factors that present an additional set of challenges to the student. Age is definitely a factor when you're more than a few years older than your peers (I'm thinking ~ 30 years old when matriculating). I would add to that any of the following: students who are financially independent for financial aid purposes, have at least part-time employment outside the university, have dependents other than a spouse (such as a parent, grandparent or sibling), and/or have dependent children.

These things all present a unique set of challenges to NT students. These factors might make it more difficult to relate to and/or find support among their traditional peers. They also present time management challenges that might make it more difficult to find study partners, participate in extra-curricular activities like shadowing, rounds, and seminars, and limit opportunities for things like summer internships and travel programs.

I'm interested to hear what the community thinks of when they think "NT". I'm also interested in hearing about any unique challenges NTs faced during veterinary school, and if there is anything they think schools could to to better support NT students. Did/does your school have an organization for NT students? Do you wish they did?

I would remove your "financially independent" criteria because all those who are in grad school are considered financially independent for financial aid purposes - so basically this includes all vet students.


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[wildlifer]

I don't know that I have a precise definition, but I'm pretty sure I'm NT!

Late 30's, previous career, spouse, child, mortgage.... I like to say that even though this was always the destination I had in mind, I took the scenic route. 🙂

I am glad I am not the only one who considers their journey towards vet school a scenic route. If I get accepted during this upcoming cycle, I'll be turning 30 during my first year.

 

[LyraGardenia]

I think that's the way most people think of NT. But, given that many students have to apply more than once cycle to get in, I'm not sure that 1-2 years between undergrad and matriculation is really that far outside the norm.

More importantly, how much different is the veterinary school experience for a student that matriculated straight out of undergrad than that of a student who applied 1-2 more times? In my experience, those students seem to integrate pretty seamlessly with their peers.

To me, NT means that the student has a different set of experiences and challenges during veterinary school due to a status that remains with them the whole 4 years. The number of years between undergrad and matriculation is a one-time thing, that doesn't necessarily affect anything else about the veterinary school experience.

Agreed, I'll be starting vet school at 24 as a third-time applicant, but I wouldn't consider myself non-traditional. I generally agree with missdarjeeling's criteria (career changers, students over 30, students with kids). I wouldn't consider being financially independent as being non-traditional, since I would think the majority of people are by the time they start vet school.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

I think non-traditional refers to those who have had careers completely unrelated to vet med during the years prior to vet school (and this would include parenthood). Non-trad = Career changer.

 

[FeartheDogMonky]

I think non-traditional refers to those who have had careers completely unrelated to vet med during the years prior to vet school (and this would include parenthood). Non-trad = Career changer.

I would agree with this. Those of us who have had careers other than vet med and decided after XX years to go back to school for prereqs and apply to vet school, then those are the non-trads.

Very broad stroke of course, but it fits the bill.

 

[missdarjeeling]

My main advisor spotted me on campus over the summer and asked if I was working. I said yes. Her response was "Oh good! I think it's great when parents instill responsibility in their kids. Just make sure you tell your parents to let you quit at least 2 weeks before school starts again so you get a little break."

I wanted to punch her. I was working 80+ hours a week, full time at 2 jobs, barely making rent and debating whether I should drop out or go homeless for the semester so I could pay the semester tuition and stay in school. (Private college. Crappy financial support system when things hit the fan)

😵

That would've been a well-earned punch. Holy...

As for whether support for NT students is necessary, I can't speak to what it's like in vet school, but I imagine it depends on each specific class. It seems that some schools have much more diverse student populations and that some have a higher or lower proportion of non-trads. So what might be a good resource in one school might be mostly unnecessary in another. As someone who will be separated from a spouse, will be postponing having children right 'til around the time most women have their last, will be dealing with elderly parents who are sole caretakers for my grandmother with dementia, and will also have to worry about a stepdaughter transitioning to college, the idea of there being some kind of support system for people dealing with somewhat similar issues sounds great. It can be isolating to feel like your peers can't relate to you, and I don't think that's a good combination with the stress and rigors of going to school. If we're going to work towards promoting mental health and well-being, then providing this kind of support could potentially make a difference for a lot of students.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think non-traditional refers to those who have had careers completely unrelated to vet med during the years prior to vet school (and this would include parenthood). Non-trad = Career changer.

Yup. The people who actually had another career. Then decided to switch to vet med, went through the prereqs and whatnot later in life, then matriculated. Not 'I worked at random different job through reapplication cycles because I got rejected from vet school or wasn't quite ready to apply.'

We tend to get everyone on this forum who wants to call themselves nontrads for whatever reason. But if you make a club for it, I doubt you'll get people trying to join unless they really were nontrad and wanted the support as such. Like I doubt you'll have 24 year olds who backpacked through Europe before getting into vet school just for the sake of crashing the nontrad party like it's some cool kid's club. So I'm not sure you really need to define it and make it exclusionary. Even if "traditional aged" but have baby during school or going through divorce or whatever, I bet that person could use the support from other nontrads who can relate better than the rest of his/her peers.


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[CalliopeDVM]

I think non-traditional refers to those who have had careers completely unrelated to vet med during the years prior to vet school (and this would include parenthood). Non-trad = Career changer.

This is the best definition I've heard.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

.so why does this discussion matter or "need to be discussed", as rocketiel posted? Why do we need to define it at all?

Some of the reasons I think it deserves a discussion:

Many schools have reservations about accepting older students, and there are some studies that indicate students over 35 years old are more likely to experience academic difficulty. These students are more likely to have a GPA in the 10th percentile of the class, have an academic delay, or be dismissed for academic reasons. Obviously these students have the aptitude, or they wouldn't have gotten in. Something is happening after they get in that's the problem.

Vet school is a different experience for those who are much older than traditional students, especially if they were out of academia for several years or have children (or others) they are responsible for caring for. Like I said earlier, many NT students have a harder time feeling like they fit in with the class and finding support from their classmates. This isn't to say that the younger students aren't supportive, it's just very difficult for them to relate to the stressors that older students have (parenting, aging parents, etc.) because most of them have no point of reference for that kind of thing.

Time management is an issue for all of us, but it's even more difficult when you add the responsibilities of caring for children on top of it. I have spoken to several NT students who feel like they have to forgo opportunities like after-hours wet labs, shadowing, attending seminars, etc. because they have to be available to take care of their families. Many NT students feel like residencies aren't an option for them because of their age, or financial considerations because they have dependents. It's a source of frustration, and might possibly lead to burn out because we feel so much pressure to do it all.

I can't think of why a school would be or should be moved to do anything special to support a group as diverse as NT students.

I'm not suggesting the school do anything special for NT students. I'm talking about a student organization - just like there are student organizations for Christian students, cultural diversity, women's leadership, etc. The point is support and camaraderie, not getting special treatment from the school.

 

[dyachei]

Some of the reasons I think it deserves a discussion:

Many schools have reservations about accepting older students, and there are some studies that indicate students over 35 years old are more likely to experience academic difficulty. These students are more likely to have a GPA in the 10th percentile of the class, have an academic delay, or be dismissed for academic reasons. Obviously these students have the aptitude, or they wouldn't have gotten in. Something is happening after they get in that's the problem.

Vet school is a different experience for those who are much older than traditional students, especially if they were out of academia for several years or have children (or others) they are responsible for caring for. Like I said earlier, many NT students have a harder time feeling like they fit in with the class and finding support from their classmates. This isn't to say that the younger students aren't supportive, it's just very difficult for them to relate to the stressors that older students have (parenting, aging parents, etc.) because most of them have no point of reference for that kind of thing.

Time management is an issue for all of us, but it's even more difficult when you add the responsibilities of caring for children on top of it. I have spoken to several NT students who feel like they have to forgo opportunities like after-hours wet labs, shadowing, attending seminars, etc. because they have to be available to take care of their families. Many NT students feel like residencies aren't an option for them because of their age, or financial considerations because they have dependents. It's a source of frustration, and might possibly lead to burn out because we feel so much pressure to do it all.



I'm not suggesting the school do anything special for NT students. I'm talking about a student organization - just like there are student organizations for Christian students, cultural diversity, women's leadership, etc. The point is support and camaraderie, not getting special treatment from the school.

those aren't reasons why you need to discuss and define NT status. Those are reasons you want to have support for those you deem NT.

The interesting thing about NT students is that they are all relatively different and in different stages of their lives. Not every NT student deals with the things you have outlined. Not all NT students have children and many traditional students may have some of these same factors.

I think we need to focus more on the fact that everyone is an individual than differentiating what kind of individual you are.

I definitely had NT and trad friends in vet school.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Some of the reasons I think it deserves a discussion:

Many schools have reservations about accepting older students, and there are some studies that indicate students over 35 years old are more likely to experience academic difficulty. These students are more likely to have a GPA in the 10th percentile of the class, have an academic delay, or be dismissed for academic reasons. Obviously these students have the aptitude, or they wouldn't have gotten in. Something is happening after they get in that's the problem.

That sounds like a non-sequitor to me......the fact that they might be having academic difficulty doesn't mean anything is "happening to them" after they got in. It's not that uncommon for students to have academic difficulty after getting admitted - being admitted to the program doesn't in any way indicate that there won't be difficulties in the journey. Maybe whatever is causing over-35s to have some academic difficulty happened before they got admitted. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if 95% of vet students have academic difficulty at some point (at all points?) during school. Are schools really hesitant about accepting older students based on their age, or is that just a presumption?

Vet school is a different experience for those who are much older than traditional students, especially if they were out of academia for several years or have children (or others) they are responsible for caring for. Like I said earlier, many NT students have a harder time feeling like they fit in with the class and finding support from their classmates. This isn't to say that the younger students aren't supportive, it's just very difficult for them to relate to the stressors that older students have (parenting, aging parents, etc.) because most of them have no point of reference for that kind of thing.

I'm sure it is a different experience for older students. But it's also a different experience for students who are parents, or for students who have health challenges. Etcetera. I was an older student who didn't have children or aging parents, I couldn't relate to what you define as an "older student" either. That goes back to the point that there are more differences among non-traditional students than between "non-traditional" and "traditional".

Time management is an issue for all of us, but it's even more difficult when you add the responsibilities of caring for children on top of it. I have spoken to several NT students who feel like they have to forgo opportunities like after-hours wet labs, shadowing, attending seminars, etc. because they have to be available to take care of their families. Many NT students feel like residencies aren't an option for them because of their age, or financial considerations because they have dependents. It's a source of frustration, and might possibly lead to burn out because we feel so much pressure to do it all. See my points above - the group of non-traditional students you want to include (eg parents) might exclude some of the non-traditional student you want to include (older age), and therefore make their interdependent support less likely.



I'm not suggesting the school do anything special for NT students. I'm talking about a student organization - just like there are student organizations for Christian students, cultural diversity, women's leadership, etc. The point is support and camaraderie, not getting special treatment from the school.

Ah......when you asked if our school had an organization or did we wish it, I thought you meant a school-created organization.

See my answers in green, above. I know what you're getting at, but "non-traditional" is too broad and heterogeneous. Perhaps you'd do better with a "parent" group that is unlimited by age, academic history, or previous career. It's far easier to say vet students who are parents have more stressors in common than a diverse group that might include a pastor who is returning to school now that her children are older, a 30 year old man who took a few years off to recover from an accident and has some hearing loss, and a chemical engineer who quit her work when she got married but now wants to pursue her childhood dream.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

...than a diverse group that might include a pastor who is returning to school now that her children are older, a 30 year old man who took a few years off to recover from an accident and has some hearing loss, and a chemical engineer who quit her work when she got married but now wants to pursue her childhood dream.

That was exactly my point. It's shifting the definition of non-traditional to "Someone who experienced some **** before or during their transition to vet school," or pretty much..... "Life."

 

[DVMDream]

those aren't reasons why you need to discuss and define NT status. Those are reasons you want to have support for those you deem NT.

The interesting thing about NT students is that they are all relatively different and in different stages of their lives. Not every NT student deals with the things you have outlined. Not all NT students have children and many traditional students may have some of these same factors.

I think we need to focus more on the fact that everyone is an individual than differentiating what kind of individual you are.

I definitely had NT and trad friends in vet school.

This, I'm a very traditional student but I've definitely dealt with ill patents (they aren't elderly but age has no bearing on sickness), a grandmother with dementia. Greater age doesn't equal more life experience. Many younger students can have the same issues/concerns as older ones, heck many of them have kids too. This is sounding more of wanting to have people for support for life things and non traditional/traditional shouldn't be a divide.

 

[rockatiel]

Same here!
What's the group called?

EDIT: found the group. It was hidden. Are you part of it? I just requested to join.

I'm not! I hope you got into though! 🙂

 

[Squeaksmom]

My school doesn't have anything formal for NT students, but I don't really think it's necessary. We are a small school, so we tend to find each other. My biggest challenge in this vein is that my hubby and son are in a different city (several hours' highway time) than where I go to school. I miss out on a lot of socialization with my classmates because I drive home almost every weekend to spend time with them. But that's nothing a student organization could help with, and I definitely don't regret making my family my priority!

I found the comment about NTs not considering specialization an option interesting. For me it's actually kind of the opposite. Because of my age and the fact that I have some health challenges already, I'm very aware that there are aspects of general practice that I may not be capable of for as long as I'd like. For a long time I had hoped to do equine practice, but I honestly don't think it would be feasible for more than a few years. This has contributed to me wanting to specialize, in the hope of maximizing my career longevity. Both in the sense that I can potentially/hopefully avoid or minimize doing some of the things that are more likely to be an issue, and in the hope that when my body eventually drives me out of practice I may be good enough and well enough known to carry on in other capacities (instructing, writing, whatever) rather than simply being forced to retire completely.

 

[that redhead]

It seems to me that many people coming to these boards are eager to label themselves as non-traditional applicants...and the more and more people apply as NT, the less and less they are actually non-traditional Sure, the majority of most veterinary classes are made up of mid-twenties, white, relatively affluent women. However, I think every student here could name at least one person in their class to fit the various NT angles: age, experiences, children/spouses/ill family members, previous careers, etc. In fact, I could name many classmates in each category and my class size was only 63 people, which is far smaller than the typical school.

I'm with @wheelin2vetmed: everyone, no matter their age, race, SES, academic history, family status, has had some obstacles in their life. And veterinary school is tough on everyone, not just people with "NT" histories; some are just more obvious than others. I kind of wish the labeling would fade out.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I also feel like nontrads all know each other within each school. What if you just reached out to those people in your class and set up an informal lunch? Maybe make it a once a month kind of thing, and it can spread by word of mouth. Not sure how much more helpful it would be to make it an official club per se.


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[Shreddr22]

I think some people feel a little self-conscious about the fact that they didn't have a straight shot right out of high school towards college and vet school afterwards. Especially when they're new to a forum such as this one, filled with experienced veterinarians and young vet school applicants. They might feel inadequate in a small way or very different and seek to place a label on themselves to explain it. Of course I don't think this is the case all the time, and personally I've always felt like I didn't quite belong to any group in college and sought out those individuals that had more life experience and maturity as my friends (the "non-trads" I suppose). Until I finally became one myself, haha. I really don't see the harm in a label, and I think having a group for non traditional vet students to join would be something positive if we choose to see it as such.

 

[Lupin21]

I don't think it is a big deal to be an older applicant. In fact, since I started on here, seems we make up a decent portion of the crowd. While people are always posting am I too old to do this, I think a little search of those threads prove that the "NT" student is not a rare roast beast. I have never had any issues nor anyone else in my class that is older, had another career or family. Biggest thing is we are anxious to just get home so drinks out don't appeal for the most part, but we are always invited.

Our school does in fact have a NT student group, but I never bother because I really don't feel that out of place. To each their own though.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

I'll say this, a group is a nice gesture, but I would likely not join it.

I'm just doing my thing. I'd join a local group of SCI gimps who're trying to do things in their respective fields if I was looking for support. Otherwise, yes other vet students won't be dealing with my specific challenges, but I'm sure a bunch of us can still lean on each other for support, regardless.

Might just be me though.

 

[Posey]

The college where I completed pre-reqs has a decent-sized non-trad population and has a club for us. I was never able to participate in clubs at that school, including the pre-vet club, because meeting times were inconvenient. However, I knew the other non-trads in my classes and we were all friendly. Usually, age wasn't an issue, but every now and then it was nice to have someone in the same boat.


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[Posey]

My biggest challenge in this vein is that my hubby and son are in a different city (several hours' highway time) than where I go to school. /QUOTE]

If you don't mind my asking, how does that work logistically? Do you rent near school, have a roommate?
My hubby and I are trying to figure out logistics for next year. We're deciding between two schools. He has a job offer near one, but the prospects are slim near the other. So, there's a scenario where he stays put.



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[MassDVMMPH]

I really think that, once you're in vet school, the differences that seem so large between the non-trads and the "youngsters" (as I always thought of them) kind of fade away. The best friends I had in vet school were all about 12 years younger than I was. Age just didn't matter. The school-related problems we shared brought us together. We all felt like we were in the same boat, and making it through the Hell that is vet school was our shared focus.

 

[vetschoolhopeful]

Well, I think that I qualify for the non-traditional route. I'm 44, was an electrician for 12 years and a farrier assistant for 3 years. I had my daughter at 19. She is now 24, graduated college, and engaged. I was a single mom with little financial support from her father, but we made it through. My dream was to be a vet since I was very young, but I wasn't sure how my performance would fare going back to school. I have a 3.97 GPA over the last 4 years, am in university and departmental honors, and have been doing research for the last 2 years. I work 30 hours a week and volunteer and attend school full time. I do not personally feel that age has anything to do with how well a person performs in school. I think it is individual and varies with circumstances. I am very close with a lot of my "traditional" classmates, as well as the girls I work with that are in their early 2o's. While I know I am quite a bit older, we share the same struggles in school and life. I honestly don't feel old, I think I have a young spirit and am just overjoyed at the second chance I have in life. I haven't felt out of place at all to this point, and really hope that that continues through vet school. 🙂

 

[Squeaksmom]

@Posey honestly I'm very lucky! I have some family and several friends (from before vet school) in the city where I'm going to school. I rent from one of them (I get the "friends and family" rate 😉 ) when I'm going to school and come home for the summers. I'm told I'm pretty low maintenance because I don't drink or stay out late or anything (and no boy drama lol), and I'm usually studying, plus going home most weekends. I'm pretty self-sufficient and don't expect the people I'm staying with to have to change or disrupt their lives for me being there.

I'm not going to lie, it was a really hard adjustment. I don't sleep well when hubby isn't beside me, so especially at first I have to be really strict with myself as far as things like going to bed at a reasonable time. Realistically, though, I couldn't be doing this without hubby's income, so he has to stay where his job is.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

If you don't mind my asking, how does that work logistically? Do you rent near school, have a roommate?
My hubby and I are trying to figure out logistics for next year. We're deciding between two schools. He has a job offer near one, but the prospects are slim near the other. So, there's a scenario where he stays put.

My husband and kids are 5 hours away. He works in a very specialized field, so there's no possible way for him to move here during the 4 years I'm in vet school. It's hard being away from each other, but we're making it work. I have an apartment near school, and I go home over the long breaks. No roommate because my husband and kids come visit on a semi-regular basis. When they're not here we keep in contact via phone, Skype, FaceTime, etc. I help my daughter with her math homework via Skype several times a week. 🙂

Last semester was hard. I realized that we need to make a commitment to talk to each other on a regular basis, and not just about "business" (what kind of maintenance needs to be done on the house, bills, etc). You have to make time for each other, even when you feel like you don't even have time to sleep. Otherwise days can go by when you haven't spoken to your husband and kids for more than 5 minutes. My husband and I have met halfway a couple of times just for the night without the kids. It's definitely do-able.

 

[LetItSnow]

I think non-traditional refers to those who have had careers completely unrelated to vet med during the years prior to vet school (and this would include parenthood). Non-trad = Career changer.

I agree with this. I get a little tired of 23-year-olds coming on SDN and calling themselves "non-traditional" because they took a year off to lay around and decide what to do in life. Makes me yawn. Yes. SO non-traditional. To me, non-traditional should refer to those who have had a real career (not "I worked at a starter job for 2 years") or who have been out of school for a significant (7+ years) amount of time.

That said, I think you should let people self-identify and if they consider themselves "non-traditional" ... more power to 'em. I'm still going to roll my eyes at the 23-year-old who took one year off after graduating from undergrad and is now calling herself "non-traditional" - but whatever. She's got the freedom to do that, and I've got the freedom to think she's overly dramatic. Easy enough to co-exist.

Are you trying to establish a definition for the purposes of restricting entry, or for the purposes of helping people decide if they fit the bill? If the former, I wouldn't do that. If the latter ... well, that's probably a useful thing. As long as you call it "guidelines" or something.

 

[LetItSnow]

I really think that, once you're in vet school, the differences that seem so large between the non-trads and the "youngsters" (as I always thought of them) kind of fade away. The best friends I had in vet school were all about 12 years younger than I was. Age just didn't matter. The school-related problems we shared brought us together. We all felt like we were in the same boat, and making it through the Hell that is vet school was our shared focus.

Yeah. I mean. I agree AND disagree with this.

I didn't feel like the <differences> faded away: the 20-somethings had more energy, they could learn faster and retain better, they had a different dynamic between them and the teachers, etc. Teachers tended to view me more as an 'adult', I had other life obligations to deal with that many/most of my classmates didn't, and on clinics clients automatically gave me some (completely unearned and inappropriate) deference that younger classmates didn't get.

But one of my best friends is a young 20-something classmate who I think is a top notch doctor now and she's one of the few people I really regularly stay in touch with.

So I wouldn't say the differences faded away - I would just say that they weren't differences that really MATTERED. I still interacted well with my classmates, had friends, got along with people, worked on teams fine, etc. Having differences wasn't a problem.

MasDVMMPH is right - everyone is in the same boat and you all have the same goal. That overcomes a lot of difference.

 

[pp9]

I agree with this. I get a little tired of 23-year-olds coming on SDN and calling themselves "non-traditional" because they took a year off to lay around and decide what to do in life. Makes me yawn. Yes. SO non-traditional. To me, non-traditional should refer to those who have had a real career (not "I worked at a starter job for 2 years") or who have been out of school for a significant (7+ years) amount of time.

That said, I think you should let people self-identify and if they consider themselves "non-traditional" ... more power to 'em. I'm still going to roll my eyes at the 23-year-old who took one year off after graduating from undergrad and is now calling herself "non-traditional" - but whatever. She's got the freedom to do that, and I've got the freedom to think she's overly dramatic. Easy enough to co-exist.

Are you trying to establish a definition for the purposes of restricting entry, or for the purposes of helping people decide if they fit the bill? If the former, I wouldn't do that. If the latter ... well, that's probably a useful thing. As long as you call it "guidelines" or something.

Better than the person who was claiming NT because she had a facial piercing....

 

[Posey]

Better than the person who was claiming NT because she had a facial piercing....

Awesome! I don't know why, but this reminded me of the vampire who worked for one of my previous employers. He appeared typical during the interview but disclosed his vampire-ness after he was hired. This was way before Twilight and TVD.


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[Squeaksmom]

Awesome! I don't know why, but this reminded me of the vampire who worked for one of my previous employers. He appeared typical during the interview but disclosed his vampire-ness after he was hired. This was way before Twilight and TVD.


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😵

 

[hazelmoo]

Awesome! I don't know why, but this reminded me of the vampire who worked for one of my previous employers. He appeared typical during the interview but disclosed his vampire-ness after he was hired. This was way before Twilight and TVD.


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People are so weird.

 

[WildZoo]

I agree with this. I get a little tired of 23-year-olds coming on SDN and calling themselves "non-traditional" because they took a year off to lay around and decide what to do in life. Makes me yawn. Yes. SO non-traditional. To me, non-traditional should refer to those who have had a real career (not "I worked at a starter job for 2 years") or who have been out of school for a significant (7+ years) amount of time.

That said, I think you should let people self-identify and if they consider themselves "non-traditional" ... more power to 'em. I'm still going to roll my eyes at the 23-year-old who took one year off after graduating from undergrad and is now calling herself "non-traditional" - but whatever. She's got the freedom to do that, and I've got the freedom to think she's overly dramatic. Easy enough to co-exist.

Are you trying to establish a definition for the purposes of restricting entry, or for the purposes of helping people decide if they fit the bill? If the former, I wouldn't do that. If the latter ... well, that's probably a useful thing. As long as you call it "guidelines" or something.

I'm non-traditional because I'm only eleventeen and have 5 children on the way!