HPSP After M-1?

[ATrim7]

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I was speaking to a physician who said she only did HPSP for 3 years - and in turn only owed three years service. Is it possible to apply for HPSP during the M-1 year to be commissioned at the start of the M-2 year?

Thank you for your responses

 

[majahops]

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

The thing about the commitment isn't as simple as the # of years you do in medical school, though. It's EITHER the # of years you do in medical school or the # of years you do in sum(Residency+Fellowship), whichever one is greater.

So if you took 3 years worth of scholarship money for medical school from the military, then did a 4 year residency, you'd owe 4 years. If you did a 3 year residency, I suppose you'd owe 3. But again, if you read the fine print, you commit to a total of 8 years when you commission.

Hope this helps.

 

[ATrim7]

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

The thing about the commitment isn't as simple as the # of years you do in medical school, though. It's EITHER the # of years you do in medical school or the # of years you do in sum(Residency+Fellowship), whichever one is greater.

So if you took 3 years worth of scholarship money for medical school from the military, then did a 4 year residency, you'd owe 4 years. If you did a 3 year residency, I suppose you'd owe 3. But again, if you read the fine print, you commit to a total of 8 years when you commission.

Hope this helps.

Red-

Your response was very helpful - my only other question than is if you happen to not match into your chosen specialty in the military (may be uncommon) and match as a civilian - would you only owe for the years paid as a student?

AT

 

[majahops]

So first off, it's terribly difficult and rare to match into an "outside" residency (despite the initial impression they might give you - ask them for the #s). However, IF you do match into a residency "outside," not only will you have to pay back those years from medical school, but you a) won't get the pay of a military officer during residency that you would if you did an "inside" residency (and residency is the only time you get paid relatively "well" as a military doc) and b) will still technically be committed to serve for 8 of the 8 years you signed up for initially.

I have the actual HPSP contract in PDF form, if you want it. (You know how I do, man).

And that won't be your only other question, I assure you that you'll have plenty more, as I still do and I've been asking a LOT!

Red-

Your response was very helpful - my only other question than is if you happen to not match into your chosen specialty in the military (may be uncommon) and match as a civilian - would you only owe for the years paid as a student?

AT

 

[Sara010]

I'm Army, so not sure if this applies to you... I am on a 3 1/2 yr scholarship and was NOT able to get it retroactively paid for my first half of M-1. Then again this was before the 20K signing bonus, etc; so maybe its changed.

The one thing to keep in mind that there is a 2 year minimum active duty requirement (i.e. if you get one of the rare 1 year scholarships you will still owe 2 years active duty).

 

[Dwindlin]

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

The thing about the commitment isn't as simple as the # of years you do in medical school, though. It's EITHER the # of years you do in medical school or the # of years you do in sum(Residency+Fellowship), whichever one is greater.

So if you took 3 years worth of scholarship money for medical school from the military, then did a 4 year residency, you'd owe 4 years. If you did a 3 year residency, I suppose you'd owe 3. But again, if you read the fine print, you commit to a total of 8 years when you commission.

Hope this helps.

So I just spoke with AMEDD recruiter about doing HPSP for my four years of medical school. I was told that I would owe four years of service FOLLOWING residency. I'm very much considering the program however the part I bolded from the quote makes me nervous. Can you explain this majahops?

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

Not true. Unless they've made a radical change, HPSP can not be applied retroactively.

 

[majahops]

I was told by an Army doc that they would pay for it retroactively, HOWEVER, I trust your report - even though I've never met you - over their response. The scariest part is, I'm dead serious.

I'm Army, so not sure if this applies to you... I am on a 3 1/2 yr scholarship and was NOT able to get it retroactively paid for my first half of M-1.

 

[majahops]

Sure, no problem man!

So... You commit to 8 years of service when you sign up, okay? This is unequivocally stated in the official HPSP contract form. I'm told that you'll be required to serve a minimum of 2 if, say, you drop out during your first year of medical school. However, the Army "technically" reserves the right to make you serve the rest of the 8.

Now... Medical school obviously doesn't count against those 8 years.

However, residency does (assuming you do it IN the military) and so does the time you spend in the military AFTER residency.

So let's say you do a 3 year residency... then, technically you'll owe 5 years to the military. That's just going by the rules (they of course reserve the right to be lenient with their rule). However, if you do a 4 year residency, you owe 4 years.

The tricky part comes in if you do a 5 year residency... because there, the payback time (5 years) overrides the 8-year minimum service commitment. So, you'll owe *5* years of service after your residency, putting you at 10 years total.

So we're talking about two fundamental rules here (and any deviation from them is a consideration given by the Army), assuming you do 4 years of HPSP-supported medical school:

Rule #1: You will be committed to the Army for 8 years after the date of graduation.
Rule #2: You will be committed to serve as a physician in the Army following your residency/fellowship for a number of years equal to the number of years you spend in medical school under the HPSP scholarship, or the number of years you spent in a military sum(residency+fellowship), whichever is greater.

So I just spoke with AMEDD recruiter about doing HPSP for my four years of medical school. I was told that I would owe four years of service FOLLOWING residency. I'm very much considering the program however the part I bolded from the quote makes me nervous. Can you explain this majahops?

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd strongly urge anyone considering HPSP to do a full read on the HPSP stickie. Folks (inmho) get dangerously close to signing without having a very good grasp of the scholarship.

Anyone commissioned in the military signs up for an 8 year military service obligation. Period. Usually, only part of this is required to be active duty. The remainder can be spent in the select reserves in which you drill one weekend/month and two weeks per year or the IRR (which is essentially your name in a computer and you do not drill).

For HPSP, you owe one year active duty for every year you take the scholarship. You also owe one year for every year of a military residency you take, with the exception of your internship year; it does not add or lessen to your obligation. Your years of active duty owed from HPSP and from residency start being served as soon as you are working as a fulltime doc (non-training) and are served concurrently. If you do a civilian residency (rare, in spite of what they may tell you), you do not accrue more years of service owed, but you are not lessening any years either, and you are only making your civilian residency pay during this time.

A few examples after med school graduation, all assuming 4 years of HPSP:

1. 3 year military family practice residency. After this, you owe 4 years from HPSP and 2 years from your FP residency (internship doesn't count). You serve four years then can leave active duty and switch to IRR for 1 year (3 FP + 4 AD + 1 IRR= 8 year MSO).

2. Internship. Then you do not match into your specialty in the military and are given a civilian deferral to do a four year neurology residency. You finish your residency and return to the military. You owe 4 years from HPSP then can leave active duty and switch to IRR for 3 years.

3. Internship. Then you do not match into your specialty in the military and are refused a civilian deferral. You do a two year GMO tour, then you do a four year neurology residency. You paid off two years of HPSP as a GMO tour, which leaves two years. But you then accumulated four years of residency payback, so you owe 2 years HPSP and 4 years residency, which can be paid off concurrently. You must serve four years active duty and then can resign (no need to do IRR, because you've been in the military long enough now).

4. Internship. Then you do not match into your specialty in the military and are refused a civilian deferral. You do a two year GMO tour and become disgruntled with the military and want to get out. You do another two year GMO tour. You have now paid off your 4 years of HPSP and can switch to IRR for four years.

Make sense? You have to figure out exactly what your scenario will be. A 4 year HPSP scholarship is pitched as "4 years in the military" to a lot of folks.

Actually, bare minimum, you'll be serving 7 years active duty MINIMUM (assuming a 3 year residency primary care residency with no GMO tour). If you do something like Emergency Medicine, in which GMO tours are much more common, you are looking at 9 years or more.

 

[notdeadyet]

Rule #2: You will be committed to serve as a physician in the Army following your residency/fellowship for a number of years equal to the number of years you spend in medical school under the HPSP scholarship, or the number of years you spent in a military sum(residency+fellowship), whichever is greater.

Accurate, except that your internship year neither accumulates time you owe to the military (like the rest of residency does) nor does it pay off time owed (like a GMO tour or utilization tour would).

 

[TheGoose]

i dont think that 'majahops' is making any clear distinction between an active duty obligation and the individual ready reserve (IRR). This is a very important distinction to make.

to atkinsje: you're right about 4 years after residency...that would be active. Then you would have 4 years on the IRR (you can leave, go home, start your own practice or job...but you're on a piece of paper if WWIII breaks out)

 

[majahops]

I always speak in terms of the worst case scenario, when it comes to contracts, because that's what you're agreeing to - and you should understand it.

IRR is best case scenario, and it just happens to ALSO be most commonplace. However, you AGREE to serve active duty for 8 years, if need be.

I didn't want to distinguish between the two at the point I wrote that response because, if you look at the HPSP contract wording, it surely doesn't.

I realize what typically happens, but going in, it's most important to know what COULD happen.

i dont think that 'majahops' is making any clear distinction between an active duty obligation and the individual ready reserve (IRR). This is a very important distinction to make.

to atkinsje: you're right about 4 years after residency...that would be active. Then you would have 4 years on the IRR (you can leave, go home, start your own practice or job...but you're on a piece of paper if WWIII breaks out)

 

[Sara010]

I was told by an Army doc that they would pay for it retroactively, HOWEVER, I trust your report - even though I've never met you - over their response. The scariest part is, I'm dead serious.

Both of my parents are Army docs and have numerous family connections and we all tried to get it paid for retroactively to no avail. But part of that *may* be because I was not able to get the scholarship in the first 1/2 of the year because I was disqualified due to a TBI incurred ~1 yr prior to trying to apply and had to wait until they were sure I suffered no long-term consequences.

 

[majahops]

Congrats on the no long-term consequences!!! 🙂

Both of my parents are Army docs and have numerous family connections and we all tried to get it paid for retroactively to no avail. But part of that *may* be because I was not able to get the scholarship in the first 1/2 of the year because I was disqualified due to a TBI incurred ~1 yr prior to trying to apply and had to wait until they were sure I suffered no long-term consequences.

 

[Perrotfish]

I was told by an Army doc that they would pay for it retroactively, HOWEVER, I trust your report - even though I've never met you - over their response. The scariest part is, I'm dead serious.

There is no way to do HPSP retroactively. You CAN do something like FAP, and I think there's a loan repayment option there, but the obligaton can work out to be longer for less money. On the upside you get to go through civilian match if you do that, whereas a 3 year HPSP still requires you to go through military match.

Also, the military obligation is either length of HPSP scholarship or length of residnecy/fellowship not counting your intern year. So if you go with the 3 year HPSP, and you get straight through training in a 4 year residency, you don't actually extend your obligation. Of course, GMOs can also lengthen your obligation... I know it's complicated.

 

[NavyFP]

I was speaking to a physician who said she only did HPSP for 3 years - and in turn only owed three years service. Is it possible to apply for HPSP during the M-1 year to be commissioned at the start of the M-2 year?

Thank you for your responses

Yes, you can do 4, 3, 2, or 1 year. Payback is year for year with a minimum service obligation of 3 years. So if you do a 2 or 1 year, you will be in uniform for 3 but internship counts as one of those years. The 3 and 4 require 3 or 4 years not in internship or residency to pay back.

 

[NavyFP]

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

Definately not. No retroactive benefits.

 

[trail doc]

I was in the same boat. Really wish they would have paid for first year retroactively, especially since I did 4 years after internship anyway. I've been working for the Navy "for free" for the past year.😡

Something you can consider is taking a 2 year scholarship (with a 2 year AD commitment) and if you like it, you can extend for 2 years under the loan repayment program. You'd have to crunch the numbers to determine if this is worth it to you- I bet the monitary value of the scholarship would wind up being less when compared to a 3 year HPSP, but you have the added advantage of an early out. In retrospect I think the 3 year scholarship is a better path, but tuition was high at my med school. Many people on this board probably think pulling the handle early would be worth a fair sum.

 

[stonewall22]

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

The thing about the commitment isn't as simple as the # of years you do in medical school, though. It's EITHER the # of years you do in medical school or the # of years you do in sum(Residency+Fellowship), whichever one is greater.

So if you took 3 years worth of scholarship money for medical school from the military, then did a 4 year residency, you'd owe 4 years. If you did a 3 year residency, I suppose you'd owe 3. But again, if you read the fine print, you commit to a total of 8 years when you commission.

Hope this helps.

They will not retroactively pay time before you signed up. You can do a three year scholarship and owe three years, but if you take the $20k sign bonus for a three year scholarship then you owe four years.

 

[stonewall22]

I was told by an Army doc that they would pay for it retroactively, HOWEVER, I trust your report - even though I've never met you - over their response. The scariest part is, I'm dead serious.

Two recruiters (one Navy, one Air Force) both told me it will NOT pay retroactively, except that it will pay for the semester you're currently in, but not previous semesters.

 

[MaximusD]

I call BULL****. I signed up during M1 year and they gave me 3 years. If they could have given me 4, I'm sure they would have. Don't give out information unless you KNOW it's true. Recruiters can say just about anything unless you're recording them.

The contract you sign has a provision that says nothing a recruiter says is binding. Really.

T-Bomb -

I'm not sure about that scenario (although it seems reasonable), but I *was* told that you can pick up the scholarship after first year and they will retroactively cover your first year and the rest of medical school.

 

[MaximusD]

They will not retroactively pay time before you signed up. You can do a three year scholarship and owe three years, but if you take the $20k sign bonus for a three year scholarship then you owe four years.

Most people I know given this decision took the bonus. I did not. I am pretty sad at this point, because I'm thinking that I'm interested in specializing at this point and that I'll end up owing more time anyway. Eff.

 

[MaximusD]

I'm Army, so not sure if this applies to you... I am on a 3 1/2 yr scholarship and was NOT able to get it retroactively paid for my first half of M-1. Then again this was before the 20K signing bonus, etc; so maybe its changed.

The one thing to keep in mind that there is a 2 year minimum active duty requirement (i.e. if you get one of the rare 1 year scholarships you will still owe 2 years active duty).

How the hell did you get 1/2 of a year paid for? Are you sure you didn't just get stipend during that 1/2 year? How much time do you owe... 3.5 or 4 years?

 

[NavyFP]

How the hell did you get 1/2 of a year paid for? Are you sure you didn't just get stipend during that 1/2 year? How much time do you owe... 3.5 or 4 years?

Army and Navy do rolling admissions, so you could be 3.5 years. Payback would be 4 though. Payback is rounded up to the next full year. So even 3.1 years would owe 4.

 

[MaximusD]

Army and Navy do rolling admissions, so you could be 3.5 years. Payback would be 4 though. Payback is rounded up to the next full year. So even 3.1 years would owe 4.

Thanks for clearing that up. That might have changed my mind had I been told about it. Ugh.

 

[sarahl86]

Sure, no problem man!

So... You commit to 8 years of service when you sign up, okay? This is unequivocally stated in the official HPSP contract form. I'm told that you'll be required to serve a minimum of 2 if, say, you drop out during your first year of medical school. However, the Army "technically" reserves the right to make you serve the rest of the 8.

Now... Medical school obviously doesn't count against those 8 years.

However, residency does (assuming you do it IN the military) and so does the time you spend in the military AFTER residency.

So let's say you do a 3 year residency... then, technically you'll owe 5 years to the military. That's just going by the rules (they of course reserve the right to be lenient with their rule). However, if you do a 4 year residency, you owe 4 years.

The tricky part comes in if you do a 5 year residency... because there, the payback time (5 years) overrides the 8-year minimum service commitment. So, you'll owe *5* years of service after your residency, putting you at 10 years total.

So we're talking about two fundamental rules here (and any deviation from them is a consideration given by the Army), assuming you do 4 years of HPSP-supported medical school:

Rule #1: You will be committed to the Army for 8 years after the date of graduation.
Rule #2: You will be committed to serve as a physician in the Army following your residency/fellowship for a number of years equal to the number of years you spend in medical school under the HPSP scholarship, or the number of years you spent in a military sum(residency+fellowship), whichever is greater.

So if I opt to do something like Psychiatry or Peds, two residency options they don't really have in the military/have almost no slots for, am I going to be "punished" for this option by being forced to do a GMO tour and then civilian residency? I'm applying for Navy but despite reading through the contract I'm still confused....

 

[notdeadyet]

So if I opt to do something like Psychiatry or Peds, two residency options they don't really have in the military/have almost no slots for, am I going to be "punished" for this option by being forced to do a GMO tour and then civilian residency? I'm applying for Navy but despite reading through the contract I'm still confused....

Where are you getting this from? You're misinformed....

 

[sarahl86]

Where are you getting this from? You're misinformed....

Yep, reading through more posts I'm realizing how incorrect this is. I'm just getting more and more apprehensive about doing this whole thing with the Navy because of the likelihood of doing a GMO tour. Things are not looking good because it looks like they'd much rather stick people in a GMO tour than a civilian residency deferment...yet I'm hearing from my (apparent liar of a) recruiter that they're doing away with the GMO tours. I don't really see any indication of this.

Basically at this point I can't justify selling my soul to the military if I have no assurance that I will or won't be putting of my medical training 2-4 years and not getting on with my life. Military residency? Fine. Obviously I'm aware of the active duty service obligations but postponing the time between completing medical school and beginning residency is entirely too much to ask in my opinion.

 

[notdeadyet]

yet I'm hearing from my (apparent liar of a) recruiter that they're doing away with the GMO tours. I don't really see any indication of this.

That's a bit harsh. They are trying to do away with GMO tours. The disagreement is how fast it's being done. Some folks are convinced that they'll be gone by the time you finish med school. Others (including me) are a bit more dubious.

Basically at this point I can't justify selling my soul to the military if I have no assurance that I will or won't be putting of my medical training 2-4 years and not getting on with my life.

Then don't sign up. No one can guarantee that you won't do a GMO tour. If that's a deal-breaker, you have no business joining. That makes it a much easier decision.

but postponing the time between completing medical school and beginning residency is entirely too much to ask in my opinion.

Then definitely don't join. No service can guarantee you carte blanch that you won't be doing a GMO tour. Period. If that's a deal-breaker, don't join. Period.

 

[sarahl86]

That's a bit harsh. They are trying to do away with GMO tours. The disagreement is how fast it's being done. Some folks are convinced that they'll be gone by the time you finish med school. Others (including me) are a bit more dubious.

Fair enough. Seeing a few posts on here set me off because my initial issues with doing HPSP were previously addressed by my recruiter and a few military docs and my problems addressed. Then I started reading more into things...

Then don't sign up. No one can guarantee that you won't do a GMO tour. If that's a deal-breaker, you have no business joining. That makes it a much easier decision.

My question is if this is specialty-specific. Am I more likely to end up in a GMO tour if I do one specialty versus another? I know there's no definite promise I won't do a GMO tour in any branch but with them being phased out and trying to satisfy vacancies with PAs and NPs as they are able, I was simply wondering if anyone can tell me if there is or isn't a correlation between specialties and 1) assignment to GMO tour and 2) civilian deferrals.

 

[notdeadyet]

My question is if this is specialty-specific. Am I more likely to end up in a GMO tour if I do one specialty versus another?

Most definitely. If you end up going into EM, expect a GMO tour. If you go into psychiatry, you have a good shot of straight through training.

The problem is that the pool of Navy docs and residency slots is very small, so the competitiveness for a particular residency can change significantly from year to year.

So even if you go into something like Psych, since a GMO tour is an apparent deal-killer, do not take the deal.

 

[BOHICA-FIGMO]

Army and Navy do rolling admissions, so you could be 3.5 years. Payback would be 4 though. Payback is rounded up to the next full year. So even 3.1 years would owe 4.

Yep, I'm on the 3.5 yr plan (due to paperwork SNAFU, long story). Sure wish there was chance to get reimbursement for my first semester of med school that I took loans. C'est la vie, I guess.