HPSP: Army vs. Navy??

[bustinbooty]

I received 4 year scholarships for both and I am trying to decide which one to take. Does anyone have any valuable input on either? Can anyone dispell or confirm the rumor that Navy Docs MUST be gen. med. docs for their first 2 years of service? How much time do Navy docs spend at sea per annum? Thanks for any responses.

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[bowsplash]

I asked my Navy recruiter the same question. Straight from the Medical Corps (in case you don't speak Navy Medicine: GMESB-Graduate Medical Education Selection Board, GMO-General Medical Officer):

At the 2000 GMESB the number of interns selected to continue into GME was low to increase the number of interns available to meet the GMO requirement in the field. Intern availability nadir will be this summer and the GMO requirement peaks this summer. GMO billets have been evaluated for conversion to specialty billets. As GMO billets are converted fewer interns will be needed for GMO tours and the number of GME seats filled will increase. The projected trend for the gap between GMO vacancies and interns available is downward! (their exclamation, not mine)

To translate--they'll have a surplus of GMOs in 2-3 years, meaning most (of us) new grads will go straight into residency. Of course, anything can change...

My recruiter also forwarded me a graph of this, but I don't know how to put it here.

Go Navy

 

[pyoj]

since you can't loose by taking the scholarship from either branch, you have to be a little selfish and figure out what they offer you in terms of post grad training and your personal interests.

i chose army over air force because i knew i could get excellent experience in their world renowned medical centers (Brooke, Madigan, Walter Reed, Tripler, etc). i didn't apply for the navy scholarship because the mandatory GMO tour turned me off. plus i have family ties in army medicine (my aunt is chief of child psych. at Water Reed). i also felt that because the army had so many teaching hospitals, i have the opportunity to consider different specialties...i really never expected the army to be as accomodating and flexible as they have been through this entire process...i also have this fantasy for becoming a "team doctor" either in a major university or a pro team. i figured that army would best fit that dream.

it's a little wierd having two institutions fight over you after having spend months trying to impress a medical school to accept you. like i said before, it's time to get a little selfish and ask "what the country can do for you".

good luck and congrats.
~j
COMP '05

 

[pyoj]

another thing, my recruiter told me that navy is the only branch that currently requires a GMO tour. this is what they told me in january.

 

[bustinbooty]

This is pretty consistent with what I have heard. Army certainly has its advantages and a very attrative one is the quality of their hospitals/teaching centers. PYOJ, when you say the Army was flexible with you, to what were you specifically referring?
Anyone have anything to say about the Navy? Any reason to choose Navy OVER Army?
Thanks.

 

[dcpayne]

I think you should chose the Navy over the Army because it would free up a potential scholarship for me!

 

[pyoj]

my comment on flexibility refered to my experience with the recruiters. they were able to arrange the commissioning ceremony around my personal schedule. plus i had the choice of either doing the OBC this summer or next summer. then again it might have seemed that way because i expected much more strict rules and regulations, etc.

~j
COMP '05

 

[BretSebastian]

I just finished 10 years in the Navy and have worked with both services a great deal. I applied for, and was accepted by both the Army and the Navy. As far as the GMO thing goes, there is a great possibility you will be required to do a GMO tour. Most Medical Officers I have served with have found these tours to be a great time! You are the man in charge, get paid very well, and get to travel the world. If you are looking into a competative residency, ie. ortho, this GMO tour will nearly guarentee a spot for you in a highly paid residency slot. Also, Navy flight surgeons are pilots as well. You get to go to Pensacola, FL and learn to fly while getting paid. Not too bad and a lot of fun. Most MO's find these tours a good relaxer before rushing back into a hectic acedemically oriented atmosphere, plus you'll have time to read up on your prospective residency literature. I guarentee you will have a blast! The Navy is a high class organization and very competative. Hope this helps!

 

[j8463dp]

I am now an official Navy HPSP student! This summer I'm going to attend OIS in Newport RI. Has anyone been to OIS? What are some tips (if any) do you have? When you say if you do a GMO tour the chance of getting a competitive residency increase. Do you know this from experience yourself or from classmates? How does it work with the detailers? (Do they give you the lowdown on what is available? and how are they to work with? What would your advice be concerning applying for, clerkships & internships.

Thanks

J

 

[joseph-arveson]

I don't want to sound like a jerk, and I know I am personally very prejudiced because of having to grow up around them, and I really DO respect service to one's country and think the military has some un-paralleled opportunitues------but, i would hardly call the organization that gave us Ollie North, blood-pinnings, the whole "Dreyer affiair," "initiation" of the rifle drill team, and tailhook (many of the worst offenders were flight surgeons) to be "High Class."

Best Wishes to all...JA

Originally posted by BretSebastian:
•I just finished 10 years in the Navy and have worked with both services a great deal. I applied for, and was accepted by both the Army and the Navy. As far as the GMO thing goes, there is a great possibility you will be required to do a GMO tour. Most Medical Officers I have served with have found these tours to be a great time! You are the man in charge, get paid very well, and get to travel the world. If you are looking into a competative residency, ie. ortho, this GMO tour will nearly guarentee a spot for you in a highly paid residency slot. Also, Navy flight surgeons are pilots as well. You get to go to Pensacola, FL and learn to fly while getting paid. Not too bad and a lot of fun. Most MO's find these tours a good relaxer before rushing back into a hectic acedemically oriented atmosphere, plus you'll have time to read up on your prospective residency literature. I guarentee you will have a blast! The Navy is a high class organization and very competative. Hope this helps!•

 

[DocHunter9]

WARNING!!!!! I am an ARMY HEALTH CARE RECRUITER AND THE INFORMATION I RECIEVE IS SOMETIMES VERY BIASED. PLEASE VERIFY ANYTHING I SAY WITH ANOTHER(PREFERABLY A NAVY) SOURCE.
If you do a GMO tour out of medical school instead of your residency, you will pay back your HPSP time in GMO. If you then do a Navy residency you will owe even more time, actually extending your time in the Navy. Army HPSP payback and residency payback are served concurrently so that only in certain few specialties do you incur any aditional time owed. With the GMO scenario it would seem to me that this splits up the payback so that it cant be paid back concurrently .
It would also seem to me that attending a residency then getting experience practicing in that specialty would be more advantagous than practicing as a GMO then doing a residency then entering the Medical Market place at the same time and at the same experience level profesionally as a Med Student who graduated six years after you.

 

[Big Bill]

Dochunter9, A couple of questions concerning age is the age cut off at 36 and can you get a waiver if you have prior service time. I am considering a scholarship yet I am a little worried about the age. Also you make it sound that if you do a residency that this counts towards your payback is that true?

 

[DocHunter9]

Big Bill,
Sorry if you misunderstood. You cannot pay back HPSP time in residency. There is a payback for residency and it is year for year just like the HPSP. The thing is, residency pay back time and HPSP payback time can be paid back concurrently (at the same time). The situation that I was pointing out is that if you pay back your HPSP in GMO, you would then incur another obligation for your residency, if you do a military residency, that you would have to pay back as well.
Here's my example. 4 years in med school on HPSP, go in the army, 1 year internship 3 years gen surg residency, then 4 years to pay back HPSP. Done, 8 years total. OR 4 years in med school on HPSP, go in the navy, 1 year intership, 2 year GMO, 3 year gen sug residency, 3 more years pay back (2 for HPSP and 3 for residency paid back concurrently but three years total) Done, 9 years total.

 

[bustinbooty]

DocHunter
Your math is mind-boggling. Where is that extra year coming from? If you spend the same amount of time in school, where is the catch that you are not paying the same time back, whether you are serving concurrently for your residency and HPSP or not?
Somehow I am more confused than before. Can you explain it a different way?

 

[Big Bill]

Thanks for your reply, That description sounds right My eyes just lit up thinking that you could count residency to that time. Now about the age thing. I will be 38 at the time of med school and I do have 5 years prior marine corps. Will that push my age back and could I get a waiver. Also will the 5 years count concerning pay and variable special pay.

Im not real worried about the years running concurrently because in the long run it will not matter considering the money you would have to pay back. If you do the scholarship then look at the amount you would pay back in the long run it is inmaterial. I am looking strongly at hpsp because of my time and money I am just worried about age.

 

[Zero Cool]

Originally posted by BretSebastian:
•If you are looking into a competative residency, ie. ortho, this GMO tour will nearly guarentee a spot for you in a highly paid residency slot•

I'm not sure you are guarenteed anything, but I did a little research on the ortho program at Walter Reed and they said this regarding the PGY2:

" This person has completed their internship and usually one or two year utilization tour as a General Medical Officer or Flight Surgeon." So, It looks almost like a requirement, at least for this program.

 

[DocHunter9]

Bustinbooty,
Both the HPSP and the residency incur a payback obligation. They can be paid back concurrently. if the are not paid back concurrently they are paid back seperately so theoretically(although I doubt it would happen) you could pay back your entire HPSP obligation on a GMO tour and then reobligate yourself by doing a military residency. In my previous example 2 years of the HPSP was paid back while on GMO leaving 2 years of obligation remaining. When the residency was completed an obligation now exists for that as well. They would take the greater of two obligations ( in this case it would be the 3 year obligation for the residency) and that would be the total obligation owed with the remaining HPSP obligation paid concurrently.

When you say my math is horrendous I understand what you mean. Here is the point.
if you complete all of your education to include residency before you begin payback the payback time for both is done at the same time. If you pay them back separately (as in my example), part of the HPSP payback before residency, part of it after. You will incur an additional obligation if your residency payback is longer than your remaining HPSP obligation. In my example the reamining HPSP obligation was two years and the residency obligation was three. You cant say that you paid for that concurrently with the HPSP payback you did in GMO because you hadnt incurred the obligation yet.
On this same point if your residency program is say, a two year fam practice. No additional payback would be incurred.

 

[Big Bill]

Dochunter9, remember me, the age thing.

 

[DocHunter9]

Big Bill,
Sorry about that. The age cutoff for the HPSP is 36. Prior ACTIVE service can be subtracted from your age to meet the cutoff. Age waivers are considered (not just for prior service reservist's)and I would say in your situation a waiver would be very possible.

 

[bustinbooty]

DocHunter - Thanks for the clarification. I think I got it that time.

 

[Big Bill]

Thanks for your help. Im thinking it is the marines so as long as Im in shape I think it will be ok.

 

[Big Bill]

That didnt make a bit of sense. Let me rephrase. I think it will happen because of my time in the corps and as long as I am in shape. That is a little better.

 

[8404]

Here is another scenario to ponder.

1)4 year Navy HPSP, you graduate and owe them four years 2) Internship (doesnt count as payback, still owe four years 3)Two years as GMO on ship, clinic, etc..(two years paid back, now you owe two years) 4) Navy FP residency (two years of training) 5) Now...you owe the navy whichever is longer: the number of payback years you owe (2 in this case), or the number of years of the residency training (2 in this case) 6)Now serve two years and then decide to stay in or get out. Total time on active duty after graduation: 7 years, nice. Of course, any residency longer than FP (3 years total GME)will add a year or two onto your contract, but you can figure that out yourself. Serve your last two years with the FMF if your a hard charger!

8404

 

[8404]

And, of course if you are on a HPSP less than four years you can do the math to see what you will owe. In the above scenario on a three year HPSP the residency will add a year to your obligation thus you serve a total of seven years active duty (as if you had a four year deal) bummer.

Alternate, if on three year HPSP, do internship, then serve three year payback as GMO in clinic in hawaii or somewhere insane like that, then get out and do civilian residency. Total active duty time: four years.

My point: as if you havent already, just work it all out ahead of time to see whats right for you. As a former fleet/FMF sailor, I believe you can make the GMO work out for you if you soul in with the sea service. poetic, isnt it?

 

[8404]

what i meant was "your soul is with the sea service" sorry, comlex cramming is getting to my brain

8404

 

[bustinbooty]

This question is a little off the thread:
How much is the Army/Navy monthly stipend now? I just talked to my Financial Aid Rep. who stated that almost all HPSP students also needed some Federal Money to help pay expenses. I know that some of this depends on your "standards of living" and whether or not you have a family. But, a single guy like me who is willing to live fairly cheaply should be able to get by on the stipend alone, right?

 

[KCOM2005]

As of July 1st, the stipend will be $1,058.

 

[pyoj]

Originally posted by KCOM2005:
•As of July 1st, the stipend will be $1,058.•

Is this taxable income? i'm going to try the first year without any loans. i figure the army stipend and the money I saved up from working this past year can cover the rent and utilities and other living necessities. living costs near COMP is not too bad...of course this is coming from someone who has lived in NY all his life.

~j

 

[KCOM2005]

Straight off the Air Force HPSP site:

Stipend and active duty tour (ADT) pay are subject to federal, state and local taxes and must be reported. You will receive a W-2 from the government. If you don't receive your W-2 by February 15, contact AFRPO/FMEQ-P at 1-888-898-0886.

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 changed the law concerning the tax status of scholarships awarded under a condition of service to be performed. Subsequent legal opinions have concluded that this change in law applies to HPSP/FAP. However, DoD has been involved in a continuous effort over the last several years to resolve this issue both administratively and legislatively. To date, no student has been taxed for their scholarship benefit.

 

[pecan]

I have a few question about the HSPS:

*Must you use the service for residency support?
*Can you use the HSPS four years and school and support yourself through residency?
*What is the income like during residency?
*How much actual income will a HSPS recipient take home monthly after taxes?

Can someone answer these with factual information?