HPSP Contract

[idq1i]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Does anyone have information on any legal firms that have experience with HPSP?

Northeast/NY higly preferred. I tried looking for myself, but most claiming to have UCMJ experience know very little of the program.

 

[IgD]

What's going on? Why are you seeking an attorney?

 

[idq1i]

What's going on? Why are you seeking an attorney?

Nothing in particular is going on. Just looking at options.

 

[notdeadyet]

I understand the need for discretion, but it's almost impossible for folks to make any kind of recommendations for you.

You'll get different answers if you're looking for a lawyer to help you evaluate a contract you haven't signed vs. help you get out of a contract you've already signed vs. fight a complaint vs. fight a charge vs. etc.

 

[AF M4]

Does anyone have information on any legal firms that have experience with HPSP?

Northeast/NY higly preferred. I tried looking for myself, but most claiming to have UCMJ experience know very little of the program.

Been there, done that, gotten the T-shirt and blanched at the cost, timeframe and general unlikelihood of success. PM'd you the name and number of one of the best of the best if you'd like to take a crack at it, and if your case doesn't happen to be in his wheelhouse his office was very good about referring to a more appropriate specialist. Good luck.

 

[idq1i]

I understand the need for discretion, but it's almost impossible for folks to make any kind of recommendations for you.

You'll get different answers if you're looking for a lawyer to help you evaluate a contract you haven't signed vs. help you get out of a contract you've already signed vs. fight a complaint vs. fight a charge vs. etc.

The discretion is really because of the prevailing attitudes on the board, and people that feel the need to lecture others without knowing all the pertinent factors.

I am trying to see if I can do anything about the bad mistake I made when I signed up for this program, and to see if there are alternate ways to pay back, or fulfill my commitment.

I have nothing against the program. It's just that I have been hit by the horrifying realization that I was blinded by the $$$ when signing, and knowing what I know now, I am looking at 4 of the worst years of my life ahead of me.

 

[AF M4]

The discretion is really because of the prevailing attitudes on the board, and people that feel the need to lecture others without knowing all the pertinent factors.

I am trying to see if I can do anything about the bad mistake I made when I signed up for this program, and to see if there are alternate ways to pay back, or fulfill my commitment.

I have nothing against the program. It's just that I have been hit by the horrifying realization that I was blinded by the $$$ when signing, and knowing what I know now, I am looking at 4 of the worst years of my life ahead of me.

Ha! It's like talking to a version of myself from four years ago.

These aren't going to be the WORST 4 years of your life my friend. Those 4 years before death when you're sitting in a nursing home wearing adult diapers and playing bingo over a prune smoothie every day...those years are going to SUCK. So you got that going for ya.

Seriously though, call the man and get your own answers.

 

[idq1i]

...sitting in a nursing home wearing adult diapers and playing bingo over a prune smoothie every day..

You know you are in the wrong place when you find the above more appealing...

 

[eagledriver]

I read this kind of question from time to time on here, and I'm just curious, has anyone even heard of someone getting out of their contract? For legal, medical, or otherwise? I don't want out myself, just wondering . . .

 

[AF M4]

I read this kind of question from time to time on here, and I'm just curious, has anyone even heard of someone getting out of their contract? For legal, medical, or otherwise? I don't want out myself, just wondering . . .

The people who are smart enough to accomplish this are also smart enough to never brag about it, mention it, or post on this forum again.

 

[eagledriver]

The people who are smart enough to accomplish this are also smart enough to never brag about it, mention it, or post on this forum again.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Jet915]

I read this kind of question from time to time on here, and I'm just curious, has anyone even heard of someone getting out of their contract? For legal, medical, or otherwise? I don't want out myself, just wondering . . .

"Conscientious objector." Although I think it's cowardly, I heard one of our interns got out that way. It was a rumor though so it may not have been true...

 

[bustbones26]

Does anyone have information on any legal firms that have experience with HPSP?

Northeast/NY higly preferred. I tried looking for myself, but most claiming to have UCMJ experience know very little of the program.

Where are you at in the grand scheme of things? Intern? Resident? etc?

You know how it is, military medicine is kind of like the "Hotel California" as you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.


I am not trying to discourage you, but should be prepared to hear "no"

If that is the case, make the best of the next four years. There are ways to minimize the pain. I can be done.

 

[IgD]

I have nothing against the program. It's just that I have been hit by the horrifying realization that I was blinded by the $$$ when signing, and knowing what I know now, I am looking at 4 of the worst years of my life ahead of me.

That may be short sighted. Serving in the Navy made me a better person and I learned a lot. I did leave after my 4 years but honestly I'm glad I did it. I think being a resident will be difficult no matter where you go. Even if you feel like you can't get your choice of specialty, that can be worked around. What is your career goal and why don't you think you can get it in HPSP?

 

[idq1i]

That may be short sighted. Serving in the Navy made me a better person and I learned a lot. I did leave after my 4 years but honestly I'm glad I did it. I think being a resident will be difficult no matter where you go. Even if you feel like you can't get your choice of specialty, that can be worked around. What is your career goal and why don't you think you can get it in HPSP?

I am a senior resident that, looking at the selection boards in the past few years, is realizing that he may not get a fellowship for 2012 that he went into the medical field to do. I am horrified at the prospect of having to serve out my commitment as a generalist, and then trying to get back into a 1-2yr specialized fellowship at a time when most post-fellowship people have an established family and respectable income. Furthermore, the fellowship structure in my field is changing, and I don't know what is going to happen 5 years from now. My upcoming wedding has reinforced this fear.

I appreciate your opinion, but at this point in my life, I don't need anything to change me as a person, particularly the military. Let's just say that I was frightened by the people I was surrounded by @ OBC (most were prior service) that cared more about the reflective polish on their boots, memorizing cadences and trying to boss around the civilian classmates rather than anything else. Once again, there is nothing wrong with being like that. It's just that I was incredibly miserable around them.

Once again, I am not blaming anyone for my predicament. I also am not interested in the conscientious objector/discovering long-repressed homosexual lust moves

 

[idq1i]

Where are you at in the grand scheme of things? Intern? Resident? etc?

You know how it is, military medicine is kind of like the "Hotel California" as you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.


I am not trying to discourage you, but should be prepared to hear "no"

If that is the case, make the best of the next four years. There are ways to minimize the pain. I can be done.

I am not irrational, and "No", while dreaded, is expected. I just wanted to talk to someone (legal) who can give me an honest, tailored assessment after listening to my situation.

I didn't want this post to turn into a whine-fest, and I hope my posts have not descended to this level. I am simply trying to explain my motivation in response to multiple queries.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I expect that you will fail to be relieved of your commitment. I also would seriously consider whether you want the bullseye on your back that you could get for trying.

If OBC was your only contact with the military, I presume you are either FTOS or deferred. If its the former, you actually have two obligations (HPSP and GME), so, depending on the length of residency, may actually owe more than 4 years.

OBC is not the military. Its summer camp and the people who want to make themselves important run around pretending like they are warriors. When you get to an MTF, you will probably find that there are far more people who just want to be doctors. You might even like your job.

Fellowship training has always been a carrot in the military for people who have completed a tour. It isn't universally true but if you've never even taken care of .mil patients as a resident, you can imagine that you are not at the top of the list for fellowship (plus, once you try to get out of your commitment, there's no way I would ever want you if I were doing the selecting...too likely you would bail later).

The only things that I've seen lead to separation for physicians are things that could cause you trouble in your professional life (DUI, petty theft, etc). Not getting to do a fellowship isn't going to come close to that threshold. If you and your attorney can't make a WAY more compelling argument than that, I'd recommend against even trying.

 

[idq1i]

I expect that you will fail to be relieved of your commitment. I also would seriously consider whether you want the bullseye on your back that you could get for trying.

If OBC was your only contact with the military, I presume you are either FTOS or deferred. If its the former, you actually have two obligations (HPSP and GME), so, depending on the length of residency, may actually owe more than 4 years.

OBC is not the military. Its summer camp and the people who want to make themselves important run around pretending like they are warriors. When you get to an MTF, you will probably find that there are far more people who just want to be doctors. You might even like your job.

Fellowship training has always been a carrot in the military for people who have completed a tour. It isn't universally true but if you've never even taken care of .mil patients as a resident, you can imagine that you are not at the top of the list for fellowship (plus, once you try to get out of your commitment, there's no way I would ever want you if I were doing the selecting...too likely you would bail later).

The only things that I've seen lead to separation for physicians are things that could cause you trouble in your professional life (DUI, petty theft, etc). Not getting to do a fellowship isn't going to come close to that threshold. If you and your attorney can't make a WAY more compelling argument than that, I'd recommend against even trying.

I am not making any "arguments" at this point. I am coming to realize that I made a very big mistake, and I am looking at my options,, if any. Above ALL, I want to be a competent, specialized physician (not a military officer that happens to be a physician). I do not view a "tour" as somehow making you more qualified to further your education - this is exactly why I want nothing to do with the med core. I think a fellowship should be based on your academic achievement and potential, not on how well you shape your beret or how loud your "hooaa" is or how crisp your salute is.

I simply want to convey a message that the military and I are a very bad fit, and that I am willing to take an alternate payback option if one is made available to me, including full $ reimbursement.

I feel like the deeper the thread becomes, the more I am having to justify my position. It wasn't my original intent, and i think I will stop with this post. If someone feels that my position is wrong, it's their prerogative. From my perspective, being a part of the system is having a very negative impact on my (and my fiancee's) life - current, and future. I think it would be better for everyone involved if I was no longer a part of the system.

Having said all of the above, I will not do anything dishonorable to get out of my commitment, and I will do my best to serve the men and women of the armed forces should I have no option to resign.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Ultimately, if you are talking to a lawyer and trying to get out of your commitment, you do need to make a compelling argument (in the legal sense of the word).

I didn't ask you to justify your position because, from my standpoint, there really isn't adequate justification. Your reasons are irrelevant to me. Despite that, I was actually trying to help.

You seem really fixated on things that are irrelevant to nearly every military physician and it suggests to me that you have a very inaccurate perception of military medicine. Although, once you declare yourself someone who wants to bail, expect that you will receive way more of the business end of the .mil stick than I ever will.

The reason that fellowship, in part, is based on service is that we need generalists. So, they hold fellowship as a carrot to encourage people to complete a generalist tour within their specialty. This isn't about saying Hooaa (or whatever your Army types say), its about seeing patients. When you accepted residency, they didn't guarantee fellowship and, if you had asked, everyone would have told you that it probably wasn't going to happen up front.

I suspect that your perception (bias) of what life in mil med is like has created a great deal of anxiety for your fiance. If you go in expecting to hate every minute, your spouse will have to deal with all that negativity. Bad for a marriage and for your sanity.

If you want to reveal your specialty, we could talk in more specifics about it. But, get over the military stuff. There are great doctors at every MTF with haircuts that have never been within regs, etc. If that stuff doesn't matter to you, you can just ignore 99% of it.

There is a huge difference between talking to a lawyer and letting that lawyer get involved on your behalf. The former is a totally reasonable waste of money. The latter is a bad idea.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I am not making any "arguments" at this point. I am coming to realize that I made a very big mistake, and I am looking at my options,, if any. Above ALL, I want to be a competent, specialized physician (not a military officer that happens to be a physician). I do not view a "tour" as somehow making you more qualified to further your education - this is exactly why I want nothing to do with the med core. I think a fellowship should be based on your academic achievement and potential, not on how well you shape your beret or how loud your "hooaa" is or how crisp your salute is.

I simply want to convey a message that the military and I are a very bad fit, and that I am willing to take an alternate payback option if one is made available to me, including full $ reimbursement.

I feel like the deeper the thread becomes, the more I am having to justify my position. It wasn't my original intent, and i think I will stop with this post. If someone feels that my position is wrong, it's their prerogative. From my perspective, being a part of the system is having a very negative impact on my (and my fiancee's) life - current, and future. I think it would be better for everyone involved if I was no longer a part of the system.

Having said all of the above, I will not do anything dishonorable to get out of my commitment, and I will do my best to serve the men and women of the armed forces should I have no option to resign.

It just doesn't seem like your situation is any different than almost every other person that signs an HPSP contract. If I would have known 4 years ago how my life would look right now, I wouldn't have taken the contract either. It makes my life (and my spouse's life) extremely difficult as he now has to try in match in the same area that I'll be stationed. But, such is life.

It's hard for me to believe that the military is going to think that it's better if you were no longer "part of the system" considering they financed your education. They don't need the money back; they need doctors. Considering you were likely deferred out, they need doctors in your specialty enough that they were willing to let you train civilian.

I am curious as to what you think adequate payback would be if it didn't include monetary reimbursement.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Ultimately, if you are talking to a lawyer and trying to get out of your commitment, you do need to make a compelling argument (in the legal sense of the word).

I didn't ask you to justify your position because, from my standpoint, there really isn't adequate justification. Your reasons are irrelevant to me. Despite that, I was actually trying to help.

You seem really fixated on things that are irrelevant to nearly every military physician and it suggests to me that you have a very inaccurate perception of military medicine. Although, once you declare yourself someone who wants to bail, expect that you will receive way more of the business end of the .mil stick than I ever will.

The reason that fellowship, in part, is based on service is that we need generalists. So, they hold fellowship as a carrot to encourage people to complete a generalist tour within their specialty. This isn't about saying Hooaa (or whatever your Army types say), its about seeing patients. When you accepted residency, they didn't guarantee fellowship and, if you had asked, everyone would have told you that it probably wasn't going to happen up front.

I suspect that your perception (bias) of what life in mil med is like has created a great deal of anxiety for your fiance. If you go in expecting to hate every minute, your spouse will have to deal with all that negativity. Bad for a marriage and for your sanity.

If you want to reveal your specialty, we could talk in more specifics about it. But, get over the military stuff. There are great doctors at every MTF with haircuts that have never been within regs, etc. If that stuff doesn't matter to you, you can just ignore 99% of it.

There is a huge difference between talking to a lawyer and letting that lawyer get involved on your behalf. The former is a totally reasonable waste of money. The latter is a bad idea.

A quick glance through his previous post history would let you know.

 

[idq1i]

I appreciate your reasonable post, Gastrapathy
Here are my reasons, in order of decreasing importance:
1-I made a mistake, having been blinded by $. I don't fit in any way for many reasons, some of which I already listed.
2-I went into radiology to do neuroradiology. Military doesn't need too many of them.
3- my fiancee is geographically limited by reasons beyond the scope of this post

 

[idq1i]

It just doesn't seem like your situation is any different than almost every other person that signs an HPSP contract. If I would have known 4 years ago how my life would look right now, I wouldn't have taken the contract either. It makes my life (and my spouse's life) extremely difficult as he now has to try in match in the same area that I'll be stationed. But, such is life.

It's hard for me to believe that the military is going to think that it's better if you were no longer "part of the system" considering they financed your education. They don't need the money back; they need doctors. Considering you were likely deferred out, they need doctors in your specialty enough that they were willing to let you train civilian.

I am curious as to what you think adequate payback would be if it didn't include monetary reimbursement.

I all for monetary reimbursement

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I all for monetary reimbursement

I was actually looking for ways of reimbursement aside from monetary reimbursement that you felt reasonable.

 

[idq1i]

I was actually looking for ways of reimbursement aside from monetary reimbursement that you felt reasonable.

Aaaah, and this is the original point of my thread: to see if there are options.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Aaaah, and this is the original point of my thread: to see if there are options.

I can't imagine there are, which was my point to begin with. It sucks, but they're going to get their pound of flesh. Like Gast. above me said, mil med is a different beast than the military in general (and I've been exposed to both all my life). It may not turn out to be as miserable as you seem to think it will.

 

[idq1i]

I can't imagine there are, which was my point to begin with. It sucks, but they're going to get their pound of flesh. Like Gast. above me said, mil med is a different beast than the military in general (and I've been exposed to both all my life). It may not turn out to be as miserable as you seem to think it will.

No offense, but this why I was seeking a professional opinion.

You don't know my situation to tell me about potential misery. Not trying to be rude, just honest.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

No offense, but this why I was seeking a professional opinion.

You don't know my situation to tell me about potential misery. Not trying to be rude, just honest.

I seriously doubt your situation is much different than many other people's, which is probably why you're not getting a lot of help here. Not trying to be rude, just being honest.

 

[Jet915]

I appreciate your reasonable post, Gastrapathy
Here are my reasons, in order of decreasing importance:
1-I made a mistake, having been blinded by $. I don't fit in any way for many reasons, some of which I already listed.
2-I went into radiology to do neuroradiology. Military doesn't need too many of them.
3- my fiancee is geographically limited by reasons beyond the scope of this post

Good luck to you, but to be honest, if those are your reasons, you have close to zero shot of the military letting you go.

 

[IgD]

I feel like the deeper the thread becomes, the more I am having to justify my position. It wasn't my original intent, and i think I will stop with this post. If someone feels that my position is wrong, it's their prerogative. From my perspective, being a part of the system is having a very negative impact on my (and my fiancee's) life - current, and future. I think it would be better for everyone involved if I was no longer a part of the system.

So to sum up you have changed your mind and are asking to be released out of the contract. Not only are you asking for special treatment to be released from a contract that everyone completes, you are asking for special treatment to be given a fellowship without a utilization tour. On top of that you are being very defensive with people who are trying to help you.

Like some of the other posters suggested, your efforts will backfire and whatever situation you find yourself in will be worse.

Tell us what is going on and we can tell you the best course of action.

 

[notdeadyet]

Tell us what is going on and we can tell you the best course of action.

In fairness, IgD, the OP was pretty up front in just wanting to speak to a lawyer to see about helping him out, rather than turning this into a whine-fest.

If he can't find any legal recourse (and I highly doubt he can; saying, "but I changed my mind!" is pretty notoriously weak grounds for getting out of a contract with the government), maybe he'll come back to post what the personal and professional reasons are that he's unhappy in the military. Pushing him for specific details on why he's miserable at this point is just bordering on voyeuristic.

 

[idq1i]

So to sum up you have changed your mind and are asking to be released out of the contract. Not only are you asking for special treatment to be released from a contract that everyone completes, you are asking for special treatment to be given a fellowship without a utilization tour. On top of that you are being very defensive with people who are trying to help you.

Like some of the other posters suggested, your efforts will backfire and whatever situation you find yourself in will be worse.

Tell us what is going on and we can tell you the best course of action.

I think it is best that I discontinue posting in this thread. I predicted the response before posting, and went against my better judgment. In reality, I was only looking for a name of a legal group familiar with HPSP. I have ended up trying to justify my position.

I know that my chances are very low, and I know that my actions, should I take any can backfire. I don't really need to hear it from anyone. I also don't need to hear another "Suck it up" or "It's not as bad as everyone says it is" comment, especially from medical students. I am not being defensive - I am genuinely annoyed to hear certain comments like "...Serving .... made me a better person and I learned a lot." Seriously, you are not talking to a 14 year old.

Anyway, I appreciate the constructive comments, particularly from AF M4.

Btw, IgD, this post is not specifically directed at you, even though i pulled the quote from you post.

 

[idq1i]

In fairness, IgD, the OP was pretty up front in just wanting to speak to a lawyer to see about helping him out, rather than turning this into a whine-fest.

If he can't find any legal recourse (and I highly doubt he can; saying, "but I changed my mind!" is pretty notoriously weak grounds for getting out of a contract with the government), maybe he'll come back to post what the personal and professional reasons are that he's unhappy in the military. Pushing him for specific details on why he's miserable at this point is just bordering on voyeuristic.

Thank you.

There are reasons that I am not posting the whole story of my life on a board that is open to everyone.

Btw, I am well-aware of the "weakness" of the above quoted argument. If that's all I had, IgD, do you really think I'd even bother? (No)

 

[notdeadyet]

I think it is best that I discontinue posting in this thread. I predicted the response before posting, and went against my better judgment. In reality, I was only looking for a name of a legal group familiar with HPSP. I have ended up trying to justify my position.

Fair enough. Folks can PM you if they have any actual legal recommendations. Let me know if you'd like to have the thread closed. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this is going...

 

[Gastrapathy]

The governing instruction is the MILPERSMAN. There are detailed instructions for separation for enlisted members for hardships but the officer instructions are deliberately vague. The relevant sections are the MILPERSMAN 1920-010 to 1920-250.

 

[IgD]

Have you guys ever heard of any physician, resident or med student break an HPSP contract or other military medicine service obligation? I saw one situation involving a death where a staff physician was granted an administrative separation. I've seen it happen for health reasons (found unfit via a medical board), misconduct or academic failure.

 

[IgD]

I know that my chances are very low, and I know that my actions, should I take any can backfire. I don't really need to hear it from anyone. I also don't need to hear another "Suck it up" or "It's not as bad as everyone says it is" comment, especially from medical students. I am not being defensive - I am genuinely annoyed to hear certain comments like "...Serving .... made me a better person and I learned a lot." Seriously, you are not talking to a 14 year old.

The comments I made were sincere and based on years of experience in military medicine and post-residency training. There are some "medical students" here but there are also posters with decades of experience who have witnessed the type of situations you are describing. If you want feel free to PM me with the specifics of the situation and I'll give you my honest assessment.

 

[IgD]

Here is what the Air Force has to say according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-3209:

2.21. Withdrawal from Military Medical Educational Assistance Programs.

2.21.1. An officer may be involuntarily discharged who has been properly withdrawn by the Air Force from a military medical educational assistance program for any of the following reasons:

2.21.1.1. Removal from the medical training program by the medical institution operating the program.

2.21.1.2. Voluntarily withdraw from the medical training program without the prior permission from the agency administering the educational assistance program.

2.21.1.3. Lack of satisfactory progress toward completion of a medical training program, as determined by the head of Air Force agency with authority to withdraw the officer from the educational assistance program.

2.21.1.4. Failure to obtain state or national licensure necessary to be able to successfully complete the terms of the educational assistance contract the officer has with the Air Force.

2.21.1.5. Failure or refusal to meet medical, academic, conduct, officership, or administrative requirements or standards of the US Air Force, as prescribed by this or other DoD or Air Force instructions or directives.

2.21.1.6. Approved voluntary request for withdrawal by the officer from their education assistance program when HQ AFPC/DPPRS has determined the officer cannot be utilized elsewhere in the Air Force, no matter whether the officer has also voluntarily tendered their resignation or not.

2.21.2. Before initiating a discharge case for any of the above reasons, forward the case to HQ AFPC/DPPRS, Randolph AFB TX 78150, to determine if the officer can and should be utilized in another capacity within the Air Force.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Based on his prior posts in this chain (he said he was in a specialty with 1 year fellowships), when I wrote that I pegged him as a surgeon, radiologist or ophthalmologist. Thats why I asked what specialty he's in.

He's a radiologist. The likelihood he'll have to deal with a Marine XO (or equivalent) approaches zero. Unless he tries to get out and someone tries to prove a point with his backside.

Your anesthesiologist who claimed that was the reason he wasn't retained is pretty funny. He wasn't retainable anyway.

The Army is different than us. They tend not to deploy their specialists in GMO jobs (then they ask the Navy for bodies and we provide specialists to fill Army GMO billets).

I would argue that most .mil docs need to understand military culture because it impacts our patients and we shouldn't be ridiculously fat. But thats about it.

 

[idq1i]

The comments I made were sincere and based on years of experience in military medicine and post-residency training. There are some "medical students" here but there are also posters with decades of experience who have witnessed the type of situations you are describing. If you want feel free to PM me with the specifics of the situation and I'll give you my honest assessment.

I appreciate the informative posts, and your willingness to help. I was simply objecting to the chastisement that I saw in some posts in this thread. The "medical students" comment was simply based on the self-assigned "Status" below the names of certain posters in the thread.

Like I said in my prior post, I feel that it would be futile to continue with this discussion, especially as I am sure it is being monitored at some level by "the Man." I assure you I have better reasons for wanting to speak to a lawyer, beyond saying "I made a mistake and now help me renege on my contract."

 

[idq1i]

The governing instruction is the MILPERSMAN. There are detailed instructions for separation for enlisted members for hardships but the officer instructions are deliberately vague. The relevant sections are the MILPERSMAN 1920-010 to 1920-250.

I read the Army equivalent, and Army Regulation 40–501. Hence my original post.