Hypothetically speaking, can you lie about your EC's, shadowing, and research?

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ReptarBar said:
lol good job equating cheating to crime. you must have done well on verbal.
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The logic is the same: why bother respecting institutions and expectations in place if there's an easier way to get ahead?

Same logic, and just as wrong
 
If you value hard work and effort, you would not be a fan (at least personally) of cheating and academic dishonesty.

I take academic honesty seriously, because I want to receive a decent education, but I am not going to tell on anyone unless there is a true ethical crisis involved.

If you are pursuing a professional degree, currently or in the future, you have no business lying about your credentials or your work. If you get caught, you likely deserve the punishments involved, such as an acceptance being rescinded.
 
Mt Kilimanjaro said:
In a high-stakes competition like this, cheating and dishonesty should be expected.

Personally I think it would be pretty easy to cheat on the MCAT.

Send in someone who knows science and hasn't given biometric data to AAMC in the past with a fake ID. I'm sure it's happened many, many times.
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They take a picture of your face when you go to take the test - so I'm pretty sure someone somewhere along the line will realize the picture you send in with your secondary or the face they see at the interview does not match the picture associated with your MCAT.

Yes, a member of the NSA or Mossad could probably get away with it, but no one here is in the NSA or Mossad...
 
Radon XP said:
While I do agree that university in this country has moved away from being a place of education to being a rat race, I don't think cheating is the answer. You're undermining education when you cheat, and adding to the problem.
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cheating is not the solution, you are right. but you act as if a cheater will go on to become a subpar doctor. that is simply not true. there are countless checkpoints during your medical career that will ensure you are fit to practice medicine.

who really cares if you lie about one activity in the grand scheme of things? what if an unqualified applicant with a burning desire to practice medicine just wants that opportunity? i say go ahead and let that person cheat.
 
Radon XP said:
The logic is the same: why bother respecting institutions and expectations in place if there's an easier way to get ahead?

Same logic, and just as wrong
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If the point is to rat race and gun down bitches, I stand by my method. The reward is much better than cheating.
 
ReptarBar said:
cheating is not the solution, you are right. but you act as if a cheater will go on to become a subpar doctor. that is simply not true. there are countless checkpoints during your medical career that will ensure you are fit to practice medicine.

who really cares if you lie about one activity in the grand scheme of things? what if an unqualified applicant with a burning desire to practice medicine just wants that opportunity? i say go ahead and let that person cheat.
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I think we're talking about many different things.

If you're talking about exaggerating your extra-curriculars, I really don't care about that (as long as it is within reason).

If you're going to make up ECs entirely, then you do so at your own risk.

If we're talking about cheating on the MCAT/in your classes in college, then that's not only wrong, but you deserve the academic suspension that will likely follow.
 
Radon XP said:
The logic is the same: why bother respecting institutions and expectations in place if there's an easier way to get ahead?

Same logic, and just as wrong
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what is right and wrong is determined ultimately by the INDIVIDUAL, not the institution, but the institution simply has the power to enforce what it believes is right and wrong. that is why i support cheating if one feels it is necessary to achieve his or her own goals. there will be harsh penalties in store if he/she is caught, but that's just how it is.
 
ReptarBar said:
cheating is not the solution, you are right. but you act as if a cheater will go on to become a subpar doctor. that is simply not true. there are countless checkpoints during your medical career that will ensure you are fit to practice medicine.

who really cares if you lie about one activity in the grand scheme of things? what if an unqualified applicant with a burning desire to practice medicine just wants that opportunity? i say go ahead and let that person cheat.
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Dude I'm unqualified but I just have a burning desire to chill with piña coladas on my yacht with models serving me sirloin steak. Let me go ahead and rob an armored car.
 
ReptarBar said:
what is right and wrong is determined ultimately by the INDIVIDUAL, not the institution, but the institution simply has the power to enforce what it believes is right and wrong. that is why i support cheating if one feels it is necessary to achieve his or her own goals. there will be harsh penalties in store if he/she is caught, but that's just how it is.
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I am a believer in objective morality, so I guess that's where we disagree.

This "every man for himself" mentality, if taken to its logical conclusion, will see the demise of all institutions that uphold mankind everywhere.
 
ReptarBar said:
what is right and wrong is determined ultimately by the INDIVIDUAL, not the institution, but the institution simply has the power to enforce what it believes is right and wrong. that is why i support cheating if one feels it is necessary to achieve his or her own goals. there will be harsh penalties in store if he/she is caught, but that's just how it is.
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So you support my plan? Do you think it can get me my life goal? It's the only way I can achieve it. Please, I need some reassurance. 🙁
 
inycepoo said:
So you support my plan? Do you think it can get me my life goal? It's the only way I can achieve it. Please, I need some reassurance. 🙁
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go ahead and rob that armored car. all you have to do is risk your life and potentially murder someone. if that is what seems right for you in this crazy universe of ours, then go ahead. again, great risk, great reward.

it's up to you to decide what good and bad in this world means. some would say that robbing a corrupt billionaire for $5 million is fine, but our institution would say it's not. some would say that illegally searching a known drug lord's house to convict him is fine, but our institution says it's not.

it's not all black and white.
 
If you cannot be honest about your credentials and the work you put forth in order to become a doctor, medicine or any other "profession" (engineering, accountancy, lawyer) is likely not a good choice.
 
ReptarBar said:
go ahead and rob that armored car. all you have to do is risk your life and potentially murder someone. if that is what seems right for you in this crazy universe of ours, then go ahead. again, great risk, great reward.

it's up to you to decide what good and bad in this world means. some would say that robbing a corrupt billionaire for $5 million is fine, but our institution would say it's not. some would say that illegally searching a known drug lord's house to convict him is fine, but our institution says it's not.

it's not all black and white.
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Wrong. Re: The Categorical Imperative.
 
ReptarBar said:
irrelevant. Kant isn't allowed to dictate anyone's actions.
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Of course "Kant" himself can't. Explain to me a morality that makes sense to you.
 
tmn said:
Of course "Kant" himself can't. Explain to me a morality that makes sense to you.
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no system of morality is proper.
 
That is certainly one stance. To me that seems like a slippery slope, but I digress.
 
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Timeout.

Everyone let's chill.

I think we can all agree that lying about credentials is immoral.
 
This ****'s getting serious.

I'm pretty sure someone just brought up Kant.
 
ReptarBar said:
ok
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What's your morality then?! It can't be "none." If yours is a morality of power then: if I want it and I'm capable then I'm gonna f****** take it? Does that make sense to you?
 
We should do one of those anonymous polls to see what percentage of SDN knowingly embellished their ECs.

I think cheating on the MCAT and throughout undergrad is less relevant because it's probably way too uncommon. I mean, if someone NEEDS to cheat to get in, then they would have needed to cheat their way through all of ochem, bio, physics, etc etc.

Where I went to school cheating on lab reports and homework was kinda prevalent, but very very very few people had the balls to cheat on a midterm or final. Most of them got caught too.
 
tmn said:
What's your morality then?! It can't be "none." If yours is a morality of power then: if I want it and I'm capable then I'm gonna f****** take it? Does that make sense to you?
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Even if this is the philosophy all premeds went with, cheating would still be very uncommon. If the goal is to do whatever it takes to beat other premeds it becomes substantially easier to report cheating offenses - no risk/high reward (that guy's done for - I don't need to worry about him anymore).

Everyone would just become a member of the academic honesty secret police :laugh:
 
LuciusVorenus said:
Even if this is the philosophy all premeds went with, cheating would still be very uncommon. If the goal is to do whatever it takes to beat other premeds it becomes substantially easier to report cheating offenses - no risk/high reward (that guy's done for - I don't need to worry about him anymore).

Everyone would just become a member of the academic honesty secret police :laugh:
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Agreed. It would take a very "fit" (read as Darwin fitness) person to strong-arm their way into med school.
 
Radon XP said:
This "every man for himself" mentality, if taken to its logical conclusion, will see the demise of all institutions that uphold mankind everywhere.
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This.
 
Just a reminder that disagreeing and arguing is fine, but personal attacks are not. Keep it respectful.
 
I could see people stretching the truth about their ECs as probably somewhat common. The Hours, or puffing up leadership duties and so on.

Straight up making stuff up? Probably wouldn't get caught, but is it wrong? Yes.
 
moco89 said:
If you cannot be honest about your credentials and the work you put forth in order to become a doctor, medicine or any other "profession" (engineering, accountancy, lawyer) is likely not a good choice.
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Extracurricular activities are just another bull**** hoop to jump through. They mean nothing, and lying about them has literally zero impact on anything or anyone.
 
circulus vitios said:
Extracurricular activities are just another bull**** hoop to jump through. They mean nothing, and lying about them has literally zero impact on anything or anyone.
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This coming from someone whose statements have been repeatedly rebutted by adcom members and medical students alike. 😉 Might not be a great source of wisdom....


Lying on your ECs or any other part of your application is lying. Period. Don't do it.
 
music2doc said:
This coming from someone whose statements have been repeatedly rebutted by adcom members and medical students alike. 😉 Might not be a great source of wisdom....


Lying on your ECs or any other part of your application is lying. Period. Don't do it.
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A few medical students who are in their preclinical years and who are stuck in the premed mindset.
 
circulus vitios said:
Extracurricular activities are just another bull**** hoop to jump through. They mean nothing, and lying about them has literally zero impact on anything or anyone.
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Cool. Apply to med schools with no ECs. See what happens. We'll have the popcorn. :corny:
 
moco89 said:
if you value hard work and effort, you would not be a fan (at least personally) of cheating and academic dishonesty.

I take academic honesty seriously, because i want to receive a decent education, but i am not going to tell on anyone unless there is a true ethical crisis involved.
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+1
 
Hey y'all, I'm currently an EMT student (2 weeks left of class) and I didn't find it to be really that appealing to what I wanted to do. What I noticed from my ER clinical's, I like the hospital atmosphere better. So, I'm thinking of doing surgical tech next year. My question is, can I count the OR hours as clinical hours or it has to count as work? Or could it be both?
 
The Buff OP said:
Hey y'all, I'm currently an EMT student (2 weeks left of class) and I didn't find it to be really that appealing to what I wanted to do. What I noticed from my ER clinical's, I like the hospital atmosphere better. So, I'm thinking of doing surgical tech next year. My question is, can I count the OR hours as clinical hours or it has to count as work? Or could it be both?
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Damn, you buff, OP.
 
circulus vitios said:
A few medical students who are in their preclinical years and who are stuck in the premed mindset.
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You were told by an M3 as well as myself and a couple others plus at least one adcom that I recall. You really should get a filter for your fingers. They're going to get your mouth in trouble.
 
LuciusVorenus said:
We should do one of those anonymous polls to see what percentage of SDN knowingly embellished their ECs.

I think cheating on the MCAT and throughout undergrad is less relevant because it's probably way too uncommon. I mean, if someone NEEDS to cheat to get in, then they would have needed to cheat their way through all of ochem, bio, physics, etc etc.

Where I went to school cheating on lab reports and homework was kinda prevalent, but very very very few people had the balls to cheat on a midterm or final. Most of them got caught too.
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Ha, I majored in chemistry at a top ten undergrad. Atleast half the people in my classes would manage to acquire "illegal" study material such as old exams that the prof did not provide the class, knowing that the profs mostly recycled old exam questions. Keeping illegal crib sheets under chairs, in laps, etc. was also very common during exams, along with sharing answers with the people around you. I only know of two people who were caught during an exam and they were just given a light scolding. And probably about 90% of the class used old lab reports from former students and molded them into their own. The people who cheated the most rampantly came out top of our class and most of them are going to/in medical school....not saying any of this is okay, but maybe some people on here are just not aware of what their fellow classmates are up to...
 
tryptophan2013 said:
Ha, I majored in chemistry at a top ten undergrad. Atleast half the people in my classes would manage to acquire "illegal" study material such as old exams that the prof did not provide the class, knowing that the profs mostly recycled old exam questions. Keeping illegal crib sheets under chairs, in laps, etc. was also very common during exams, along with sharing answers with the people around you. I only know of two people who were caught during an exam and they were just given a light scolding. And probably about 90% of the class used old lab reports from former students and molded them into their own. The people who cheated the most rampantly came out top of our class and most of them are going to/in medical school....not saying any of this is okay, but maybe some people on here are just not aware of what their fellow classmates are up to...
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My gf said her sorority always had old tests that they'd pass down for years at emory. Pretty much anything science related was passed down but none of it applied to her since she wasn't pre med. I don't think she'd have used the stuff anyways. And based on a few other interactions with premeds there I'd bet money that pretty much every other sorority or frat had similar systems. Heck there were even people who outright put friends who ran their own business or whatever as references but had little or nothing to do with that business/leadership position.

Kind of messed up if you ask me especially if the amount of people actually cheating is more than we think it is. And when you sit down and think about the risk/reward, I think a lot of people would compromise whatever their ethical code is (maybe just once) if it helps get them into a program where the end result is a prestigious degree and a very nice paycheck. That might be making it more competitive and difficult for candidates with less impressive numbers to get in. I guess they still have to do well on the MCAT but an edge is an edge. It's the same as professional athletes taking PEDs imo.
 
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Personally, I would feel pretty ashamed if I got into med school based on lies.

That said, I do understand the impulse to exaggerate about EC's. After working so hard to build a good application over the past few years, I felt a little disappointed seeing it all listed out in the work and activities section. My friend lied pretty extensively about his EC's and got into 6 or 7 schools. And this was actually at the urging of his mom who is a physician.

Beyond feeling like it's crummy behavior, I would be perpetually scared of getting caught. And then having to LIE in interviews when you are already stressed out?! Yikes.
 
inycepoo said:
Cool. Apply to med schools with no ECs. See what happens. We'll have the popcorn. :corny:
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i'm convinced that you are an idiot. you completely misunderstood his simple comment rofl. the funny thing is that you are blissfully unaware...
 
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Agent B said:
And so it begins. :corny:
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it's true, though. how could anyone infer that circulus believes applying to medical school without EC's is acceptable? he clearly said it's a "hoop to jump though," meaning that it's necessary to do but possesses little value.

all i can say is WTF?


"Extracurricular activities are just another bull**** hoop to jump through. They mean nothing, and lying about them has literally zero impact on anything or anyone."
 
ReptarBar said:
it's true, though. how could anyone infer that circulus believes applying to medical school without EC's is acceptable? he clearly said it's a "hoop to jump though," meaning that it's necessary to do but possesses little value.

all i can say is WTF?


"Extracurricular activities are just another bull**** hoop to jump through. They mean nothing, and lying about them has literally zero impact on anything or anyone."
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And that assertion was already disproved long ago, along with many of circulus' other rants.
 
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