I am a GP practice owner. Go for OS?

[Cold Front]

Having kids definitely makes a huge difference in the spending. With kids, you tend to eat out more, travel more, and the flight tickets are a lot more expensive for 4 than for just 2. We can only afford to fly economy class. You have to buy your kids cars.....It’s also more a lot more expensive to insure an inexperienced teenage driver.

I am glad that my son goes to a cheap state school. I am surprised that our overall spending has shrunk a little bit since he left for college. I thought it would cost us more. The total cost for dorm (food included) + tuition at UCLA is only $12k per quarter or $3k per month ($12k x 3 quarters/12months). Last year, when my son was in HS and lived with us, we spent a lot more than $3k per month on him….piano lessons, tennis lessons, sport wears, gas for his car, donations for his school, dinning out more often etc.

I guess I was wrong when I said earlier that it wasn’t significantly more expensive to live in CA. Are you sure the total of all your utility bills is only $400? My average electric bill alone is $650 ($450 if I don’t charge my Tesla)….water bill $150, gas bill $100, internet $120….$1k a month in total. And we only use the AC during the hot summer months, June-Oct.


Yeah, you have to find something to do to stay sane. I’d go crazy if I stay home doing nothing 7 days/wk, 365 days/year. And the easiest way to avoid this problem is to go to work. Whenever I am home, I have to find work to do around the house...gardening, washing cars, installing new home gadgets etc. I play piano and guitar but my wife keeps complaining because I keep playing the same songs over and over again.

+1.

You should write a book or learn a new language. Make new friends. I’m an avid reader, and enjoy discussing economic and financial trends with other people on Reddit, and economic blogs with like minded people. This will shock many, but my grandfathers had 4 wives each… 8-10 kids with each wife. Each of those kids had 6-8 kids on average, and their kids had more kids. I’m a big anomaly in that circle with no kids, yet. I never met or spoke to 80% of that family tree. They live across the world. But I’m always making plans with the ones I know in this country, on top of friends from d school, neighbors and people I recently met. So much to do, so little time. But its fun with a good quality of life for me.

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[Big Time Hoosier]

It is such a privilege to be here in America.

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

Agree it's not much but it is not an insignificant amount if your house is paid off.

Anyway, when I think about it, I am glad I did medicine. Not too many careers out there that one can easily find a job and make 6-figure salary while working PT.

You are right. Medicine and dentistry are both very safe health professions. Not too many careers out there that are easy to find, are stable....and pay well. Google has just laid off 12000 employees without any notice. Those poor employees woke up in the morning and found out they were no longer employed.... and it's not because they're incompetent or lazy.......It's sad!!!

 

[Cold Front]

I respect the hustle so much. It grinds my gears when I have people in my social circle with great upbringings that waste their life making excuses and feeling sorry for themself when they only have 2k to their name. Unless someone is disabled, there are no excuses. It is such a privilege to be here in America.

That’s first world problem. Parents worked very hard, and their children will work less harder, typically. If your parents were going to leave you $5-25M inheritance, which is doable for some dentists if they work hard over 35 years and saved a lot (and lived) until their 70’s, would you be worried as much about your financial future? Yes, those kids will go to college, but they don’t have to worry about money like their parents did. I’m not saying all the successful parents kids do this, but it’s common. Kids who are born into poor households are far more likely to hustle.

 

[Thehighwind87]

You are right. Medicine and dentistry are both very safe health professions. Not too many careers out there that are easy to find, are stable....and pay well. Google has just laid off 12000 employees without any notice. Those poor employees woke up in the morning and found out they were no longer employed.... and it's not because they're incompetent or lazy.......It's sad!!!

I graduated in 2010 with fellow techies while I went to dental school, and I can assure you even if they got laid off, their net worth is way way way higher then any dental graduate (factoring in debt, practice loan) then I know. And it's mainly due to stock and high compensation. They will find a job no problem.

Our gig is safe for sure as people will always need their teeth worked on. We are stable, and pay well relative to the average job. But tech is where the $ is for sure and its mainly due to stock compensation plus benefits plus less schooling/less debt.

 

[charlestweed]

I graduated in 2010 with fellow techies while I went to dental school, and I can assure you even if they got laid off, their net worth is way way way higher then any dental graduate (factoring in debt, practice loan) then I know. And it's mainly due to stock and high compensation. They will find a job no problem.

Our gig is safe for sure as people will always need their teeth worked on. We are stable, and pay well relative to the average job. But tech is where the $ is for sure and its mainly due to stock compensation plus benefits plus less schooling/less debt.

I believe the average engineer salary is around $80k. https://www.indeed.com/career/engineer/salaries/Silicon-Valley--CA. And to find better pay jobs, they have to move to certain locations…..away from their friends and family. Dentists can find job anywhere…in fact, the more rural they go, the more money they make. Many new grad dentists on here have claimed they earn $150-200k/year working only 4 days a week. If these new grad dentists work the same amount of hours (ie 8 hours a day, 5 days/wk) like the engineers, they should make more than 2x as much as the engineers.

They will find a job no problem.

Not sure if it’s easy for them to find another job that offers similar pay to what they earned from their previous job, especially during the recession...during the mass layoff periods. And the older they get, the harder it is for them to find jobs…their jobs will be taken away by younger grads. My referring dentist's husband is a former engineer. He has been out of work since he was in his early 50s....that's about 9 years ago. He is now doing the lab work at his wife's dental office. Fortunately, his wife's office is doing well.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Lol the average software engineer salary is not 80k. We talking software developer engineer data scientist.

They make way more then 80k.

My bro in law package from big tech is fat due to stock vesting- we talking about 6 figures of stock compensation on top of a 200k salary. And to add the cherry on top while I was picking up dental school in 2010 graduating in 2014... taking on a practice in 2016, building it up and paying off the loans which should be done by 2026... techies got a 16 year head start. Just zoom out on amazon/Facebook/google stock. Their vested options have been profitable hand over fist. Yes- this year is the first year where we have seen a decline in big tech stock, but if you had Facebook at 25, google stock between 2-20, and amazon at 3$... you come out far ahead. And that's where we were in 2010 working in big tech. Imagine where you would be as a software engineer at Tesla before it's big run up.

A dentist can never catch up to that kind of income.

Some Google workers who've been laid off earned as much as $1 million a year, report says

The Information reported that the job cuts announced on Friday by Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai also included some high performers and high earners.

news.yahoo.com

6 figure severance on 1 million dollars a year is not 80k. Even tho that is an outlier, you get the point.

 

[charlestweed]

Lol the average software engineer salary is not 80k. We talking software developer engineer data scientist.

They make way more then 80k.

My bro in law package from big tech is fat due to stock vesting- we talking about 6 figures of stock compensation on top of a 200k salary. And to add the cherry on top while I was picking up dental school in 2010 graduating in 2014... taking on a practice in 2016, building it up and paying off the loans which should be done by 2026... techies got a 16 year head start. Just zoom out on amazon/Facebook/google stock. Their vested options have been profitable hand over fist. Yes- this year is the first year where we have seen a decline in big tech stock, but if you had Facebook at 25, google stock between 2-20, and amazon at 3$... you come out far ahead. And that's where we were in 2010 working in big tech. Imagine where you would be as a software engineer at Tesla before it's big run up.

A dentist can never catch up to that kind of income.

Some Google workers who've been laid off earned as much as $1 million a year, report says

The Information reported that the job cuts announced on Friday by Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai also included some high performers and high earners.

news.yahoo.com

6 figure severance on 1 million dollars a year is not 80k. Even tho that is an outlier, you get the point.

Average software engineer's salary is in the low to mid $100k, not $1million. https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries. You can make a lot of money in any field, if you are exceptionally good….not just good. There are outliers in every field. There are dentists who make $1+million too. For Google to pay the guy $1million, he must have a thick resume that separates him from other candidates. And if he doesn’t peform well (ie unable to produce more than 2-3x his salary for Google), he will be let go. There are too many engineers....every 4-year college produces a few hundred of engineers every year.

There is no such thing as get rich quick or luck. Most millionaires earn their money through years of hard work, controlled spendings, saving, and investing. These people tend to appreciate their hard earned money more...and are more careful on how they spend and invest. People that make money quickly and easily (ie short term $1million job at Google, winning lottery, a sport player with a big fat contract for a year or 2, an actor that has 1 movie deal in his life time etc) tend to waste them all and become broke later in their lives.

At least for dentistry, you can do very well for being just an average dentist. Being your own boss is a huge plus. You set your own work schedule and will never get fired. If your office doesn’t do well, you can always work P/T for a dental corp to supplement your income. My sister and I are not outliers….we are just average dentists. My own 3 small ortho practices don’t have enough patients (because I am in a very competitive market and I don’t have good marketing skill) so I have to work part time for the corp office to increase my income. I just work much harder than the average dentists.

 

[DDS9994]

+1.

You should write a book or learn a new language. Make new friends. I’m an avid reader, and enjoy discussing economic and financial trends with other people on Reddit, and economic blogs with like minded people. This will shock many, but my grandfathers had 4 wives each… 8-10 kids with each wife. Each of those kids had 6-8 kids on average, and their kids had more kids. I’m a big anomaly in that circle with no kids, yet. I never met or spoke to 80% of that family tree. They live across the world. But I’m always making plans with the ones I know in this country, on top of friends from d school, neighbors and people I recently met. So much to do, so little time. But its fun with a good quality of life for me.

Cold Front where are your parent from originally?

 

[Cold Front]

Cold Front where are your parent from originally?

The Horn of Africa. The Indian Ocean side.

 

[Splenda88]

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

 

[yappy]

It’s very demanding. I’m not sure if some of you have friends who went to OS residency, but I have 2 friends who did OS from my class. I ran into them at a wedding of another classmate in Toronto last spring. We’re all about the same age.., but both OS guys aged faster than anyone else, specially in their 40’s, specially the one who did the 6 year path. I dont know what exactly they endured from day to day, but it involved far less sleep for anyone’s liking, and it was probably bad enough to cause significant aging. I slept 8 hours in my 30s, still do in my early 40s… most can’t put a price to that. Still, I respect OS residents and the specialty in general. But the training comes at a cost, even though they don’t want to admit it.

This is bro science 😂

 

[Thehighwind87]

Average software engineer's salary is in the low to mid $100k, not $1million. https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries. You can make a lot of money in any field, if you are exceptionally good….not just good. There are outliers in every field. There are dentists who make $1+million too. For Google to pay the guy $1million, he must have a thick resume that separates him from other candidates. And if he doesn’t peform well (ie unable to produce more than 2-3x his salary for Google), he will be let go. There are too many engineers....every 4-year college produces a few hundred of engineers every year.

There is no such thing as get rich quick or luck. Most millionaires earn their money through years of hard work, controlled spendings, saving, and investing. These people tend to appreciate their hard earned money more...and are more careful on how they spend and invest. People that make money quickly and easily (ie short term $1million job at Google, winning lottery, a sport player with a big fat contract for a year or 2, an actor that has 1 movie deal in his life time etc) tend to waste them all and become broke later in their lives.

At least for dentistry, you can do very well for being just an average dentist. Being your own boss is a huge plus. You set your own work schedule and will never get fired. If your office doesn’t do well, you can always work P/T for a dental corp to supplement your income. My sister and I are not outliers….we are just average dentists. My own 3 small ortho practices don’t have enough patients (because I am in a very competitive market and I don’t have good marketing skill) so I have to work part time for the corp office to increase my income. I just work much harder than the average dentists.

Hmm, I do agree with the overall picture you paint of dentistry.

I don't really agree with the assessment of software. Like I said I married into a family of computer degrees of various degrees, and some of my friends from undergrad work in the big tech areas. I know their compensation packages, and I know that linked in recruiters are always asking them to jump ship for even better packages on the daily.

The amount of money they make is way way way more then you listed and its mostly due to compounding effects of stocks. At the end of the day their valuations are much higher then what dentists make. For example: You just can't beat getting 50-100k or even 200k worth of Facebook stock at 30$/50$/X amount a share every few years as a vesting option. Like there is no way a dentist can compete.

But at the end of the day, its about doing what makes you happy and the quality of life. I do see that my software friends do work alot when projects are due etc, and their jobs can be technically cut at any moment when you work for a big conglomerate. However, they are always in demand and can find a job as their skillset is hard to find and replace. Dentistry on the other hand offers 4 days a week, no on-call, and well since you are the boss you can never be fired and can set your own rules/schedules. But being the boss also comes with its cons to- right.

I'm just saying in general, dentistry ain't that bad. But the debt burdens (mortgage, practice loan, student loan), and opportunity cost (4 years of deferred earnings while interest ticking), makes the job questionable (today in 2023- not when you started in the 90's 00's). Software is a great field as you don't have practice loan, minimal student loan, no opportunity cost, and you have stock that is vested and ticks up as the market goes up which keeps up with inflation. Dentistry is the total opposite since we don't keep up with inflation, and ironically, we have inflating costs (staff, rent, utilities, supplies) that makes it "doubly" bad- so our bottom line shrinks on both ends.

 

[charlestweed]

Hmm, I do agree with the overall picture you paint of dentistry.

I don't really agree with the assessment of software. Like I said I married into a family of computer degrees of various degrees, and some of my friends from undergrad work in the big tech areas. I know their compensation packages, and I know that linked in recruiters are always asking them to jump ship for even better packages on the daily.

The amount of money they make is way way way more then you listed and its mostly due to compounding effects of stocks. At the end of the day their valuations are much higher then what dentists make. For example: You just can't beat getting 50-100k or even 200k worth of Facebook stock at 30$/50$/X amount a share every few years as a vesting option. Like there is no way a dentist can compete.

But at the end of the day, its about doing what makes you happy and the quality of life. I do see that my software friends do work alot when projects are due etc, and their jobs can be technically cut at any moment when you work for a big conglomerate. However, they are always in demand and can find a job as their skillset is hard to find and replace. Dentistry on the other hand offers 4 days a week, no on-call, and well since you are the boss you can never be fired and can set your own rules/schedules. But being the boss also comes with its cons to- right.

I'm just saying in general, dentistry ain't that bad. But the debt burdens (mortgage, practice loan, student loan), and opportunity cost (4 years of deferred earnings while interest ticking), makes the job questionable (today in 2023- not when you started in the 90's 00's). Software is a great field as you don't have practice loan, minimal student loan, no opportunity cost, and you have stock that is vested and ticks up as the market goes up which keeps up with inflation. Dentistry is the total opposite since we don't keep up with inflation, and ironically, we have inflating costs (staff, rent, utilities, supplies) that makes it "doubly" bad- so our bottom line shrinks on both ends.

Many of your tech friends are around your age.....30-35yo, right? Of course, they are doing well. They are at their peak years. They should do better than many dentists, who are in this same age range because like you said, they were 4 years ahead and they had minimum student loans. They bought houses, drove nice cars, traveled everywhere while I was still in school doing my ortho residency (and I had to take out additional student loan for this). Wait until they get older (in their late 40-50s)….if they don’t keep up with their skills and knowledge, their jobs will be replaced by the younger software grads. In dentistry….the older you get, the more skilled dentist you will become and with the reputation that you’ve built over the years, your practice will get busier and make more money. Most dentists get rich by investing also. Many banks are willing to lend money to successful dentists.

....today in 2023- not when you started in the 90's 00's...

We, dentists, who graduated in the 90s, didn’t make as much as what today new grads make. The starting salary for a new grad GP in the 90s was $250-300 a day. I graduated in 2001 and my starting salary was $800 a day. Today new grad orthos make $1300-1500 a day. I still admit that one huge advantage that we had over today new grads is we had much lower student loan debt.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Many of your tech friends are around your age.....30-35yo, right? Of course, they are doing well. They are at their peak years. They should do better than many dentists, who are in this same age range because like you said, they were 4 years ahead and they had minimum student loans. Wait until they get older (in their late 40-50s)….if they don’t keep up with their skills and knowledge, their jobs will be replaced by the younger software grads. In dentistry….the older you get, the more skilled dentist you will become and with the reputation that you’ve built over the years, your practice will get busier and make more money. Most dentists get rich by investing also. Many banks are willing to lend money to successful dentists.

We, dentists, who graduated in the 90s, didn’t make as much as today new grads. The starting salary for a new grad GP in the 90s was $250-300. I graduated in 2001 and my starting salary was $800 a day. Today new grad orthos make $1300-1500 a day. I still admit that one huge advantage that we had over today new grad is we had much lower student loan debt.

Yeah, I do overall agree with that assessment, but man, 10 years+ of a bull market run with average stock options of FANGS in that have 10x'd since 2010...well even if they are replaced by younger software grads- I think they can retire just fine at 40 with millions in the bank.

I dunno man, it just seems like a hurdle to overcome when money flows so easily in the tech world. One of my friends signed on with a FANG and they literally gave him 200k in salary and 200k in vested stock if he sticks around for 2 years at X stock price. If said stock price doubles by the time the period ends he makes 400k. And if he doesn't cash it out- it sits and goes up. I know dentists can do well do well do- don't get me wrong. But we talking about a 25 year old making that kind of money...while us dentists are sitting around in school accumulating debt.

 

[charlestweed]

Yeah, I do overall agree with that assessment, but man, 10 years+ of a bull market run with average stock options of FANGS in that have 10x'd since 2010...well even if they are replaced by younger software grads- I think they can retire just fine at 40 with millions in the bank.

I dunno man, it just seems like a hurdle to overcome when money flows so easily in the tech world. One of my friends signed on with a FANG and they literally gave him 200k in salary and 200k in vested stock if he sticks around for 2 years at X stock price. If said stock price doubles by the time the period ends he makes 400k. And if he doesn't cash it out- it sits and goes up. I know dentists can do well do well do- don't get me wrong. But we talking about a 25 year old making that kind of money...while us dentists are sitting around in school accumulating debt.

Hopefully, these young 22-25 yo engineers are fully aware of the possibility of the pay cut and layoff when they get older. Hopefully, they don’t cash out their investments and spend money on stupid things. Most young people have the YOLO mentality and don’t save/invest for their retirements. When they have zero income, money will run out quickly even if they have millions of dollars in their investments (if the stock crashes at the time that they get laid off). At 40-45, many still have young kids to support. 40-45yo is a long way from 59.5, the age that they can take out the 401k money…..from 62, the age that they can collect social security money. Dentistry offers job security.

I hope your friend doesn’t live in the silicone valley area, where most of the big tech companies are located….where the average home price is $1.5 million. The salary of $200k/year is not much when one has to pay the mortgage on a $1.5-2 million house. Dentists can earn $200k/year anywhere in the country…the more rural they go, the more money they make

 

[DDS9994]

The Horn of Africa. The Indian Ocean side.

Cool, Somalia I presume, mine are from Haiti originally. The immigrant parent is no joke. lol.

 

[AONLINE]

Average software engineer's salary is in the low to mid $100k, not $1million. https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries. You can make a lot of money in any field, if you are exceptionally good….not just good. There are outliers in every field. There are dentists who make $1+million too. For Google to pay the guy $1million, he must have a thick resume that separates him from other candidates. And if he doesn’t peform well (ie unable to produce more than 2-3x his salary for Google), he will be let go. There are too many engineers....every 4-year college produces a few hundred of engineers every year.

This is exactly my thoughts. People here keep talking about how software engineers are making bank, and that dentistry is on its death bed. But there are 7000 new grad dentists every year, and there are currently about 200k dentists in the workforce versus 4.4 millions software engineers. The software engineers that make bank at big techs/FAANG are the outliers, not the norm.

 

[Allthebags]

This is exactly my thoughts. People here keep talking about how software engineers are making bank, and that dentistry is on its death bed. But there are 7000 new grad dentists every year, and there are currently about 200k dentists in the workforce versus 4.4 millions software engineers. The software engineers that make bank at big techs/FAANG are the outliers, not the norm.

Exactly. People talk about software engineers as if they all work at big tech companies. The process to get into those positions is very difficult... it's the equivalent of saying all dentists make $500k and have 3 practices each.

 

[Splenda88]

Exactly. People talk about software engineers as if they all work at big tech companies. The process to get into those positions is very difficult... it's the equivalent of saying all dentists make $500k and have 3 practices each.

Yeah...

Maybe ~5% of software engineers work for big tech. It's only in SDN people use outliers to make a point. The average software engineer probably make ~90k/yr and has no job security.