I do not like Surgery

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necodaak8

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I am trying to do my homework on whether or not I would like to go into podiatry. My main question is surgery. Should I not go into this field if I do not want to do surgery? Surgery does not interest me at all. Would I still make a decent living if I choose to not go into surgery? Would I be able to private practice if I do not do surgery? Lastly, I plan to do some shadowing soon and not sure if I will get to see some surgery but when I go in do I have to get dressed up and learn how to scrub? Surgery really has me on edge. All feedback would be appreciated.
 
The profession's PMS-model residencies are surgery focused now, and you'd also probably rotate in general, vasc, plastic, ortho etc surgery fields and possibly other specialty surgical services during that residency. The reasoning is that the residencies are meant to lead to ABPS board certification in foot and ankle surgery and teach you many treatment offerings for your patients, which allows you to be a comprehensive foot and ankle care provider. You honestly might want to consider another field if you dislike surgery.

You could choose to do non-surgical podiatric medicine, wound care, etc and refer out your surgery yet still make a fine living while helping many patients, but you'd still have to do a surgical residency nowadays (or have a VERY tough time getting state license, onto hospital staff, insurance plans, etc). The bottom line is that, as a DPM, you probably won't be doing as much surgery (esp bone/joint surgery) as many pre-pods and pod students think, but there are a whole lot of patients whose foot/ankle pathology will fail good conservative care, which makes them into a surgical candidate (hence the training models).
 
I am trying to do my homework on whether or not I would like to go into podiatry. My main question is surgery. Should I not go into this field if I do not want to do surgery? Surgery does not interest me at all. Would I still make a decent living if I choose to not go into surgery? Would I be able to private practice if I do not do surgery? Lastly, I plan to do some shadowing soon and not sure if I will get to see some surgery but when I go in do I have to get dressed up and learn how to scrub? Surgery really has me on edge. All feedback would be appreciated.

I did not have to scrub in. I was required to stay in a certain area of the operating room as to not contaminate the surgery/instruments. I was still clearly able to see however.
 
You could choose to do non-surgical podiatric medicine, wound care, etc and refer out your surgery yet still make a fine living while helping many patients, but you'd still have to do a surgical residency.

Good points here.

There is a doc here in central FL who does primarily laser treatments for nail fungus. He is part of a medium sized group and I believe also gets outside referrals from pods private practice who do not have the (expensive) equipment.

The variable practice options that podiatry allows is one of it's attractors as a specialty. 👍
 
Feli's reply was excellent. Additionally, as a student, you will most likely NOT ever be asked to scrub unless you are actually a podiatry student that is rotating through that particular program via an externship.

If you aren't even in professional school, and you are simply an "observer", it is against the policy of every hospital and surgery center that I'm aware of for anyone in that capacity to actually "scrub" for obvious medical-legal reasons.

You will simply be allowed to observe and will often be told operating room etiquette to make sure you don't interfere with the procedure or break any sterile fields.

As per Feli's post, it is really almost mandatory that any DPM's training involve hands-on surgical experience and training. Once you graduate, you can decide not to perform surgery, and can specialize in geriatric care, sports medicine, non surgical diabetic/wound care, etc. You can have a relationship with another DPM and refer surgical cases to that doctor.

I know many DPM's that earn an extremely lucrative income and perform no surgery.
 
I am trying to do my homework on whether or not I would like to go into podiatry. My main question is surgery. Should I not go into this field if I do not want to do surgery? Surgery does not interest me at all. Would I still make a decent living if I choose to not go into surgery? Would I be able to private practice if I do not do surgery? Lastly, I plan to do some shadowing soon and not sure if I will get to see some surgery but when I go in do I have to get dressed up and learn how to scrub? Surgery really has me on edge. All feedback would be appreciated.
I'm just curious -- can you elaborate on what it is about surgery that you do not like and "has you on edge?"
 
I'm just curious -- can you elaborate on what it is about surgery that you do not like and "has you on edge?"

I appreciate all the support and feedback. In regards to your question about elaborating on what I do not like about surgery comes down to several aspects. Surgery for me would be extremely intense. The whole procedure from start to finish is extremely detailed and the responsibility is immense. I would not be happy doing surgery. I could not imagine myself doing surgery due to consistently being nervous. I plan to shawdow in a few weeks to completely decide if this field is truly for myself. What is podiatry like in California? Are there a lot of restrictions from a surgical perspective in the state of Cali? Lastly, how does residency work? Do I have to work in a certain residency to be able to practice in certain states? Thanks in advance everyone!
 
I appreciate all the support and feedback. In regards to your question about elaborating on what I do not like about surgery comes down to several aspects. Surgery for me would be extremely intense. The whole procedure from start to finish is extremely detailed and the responsibility is immense. I would not be happy doing surgery. I could not imagine myself doing surgery due to consistently being nervous. I plan to shawdow in a few weeks to completely decide if this field is truly for myself. What is podiatry like in California? Are there a lot of restrictions from a surgical perspective in the state of Cali? Lastly, how does residency work? Do I have to work in a certain residency to be able to practice in certain states? Thanks in advance everyone!

1st - as a podiatrist you will be a doctor making decisions that affect your patient's life whether you do surgery or not. Telling someone that they must be NWB, or take a break from an activity that they love until their ailment heals can be life altering. If you choose to put your patient in a cast or CAM walker for immobilization and they get a DVT, this is obviously life altering. If the patient has fungal nails and you put them on lamisil and they develop liver failure. These are all stress inducing events for the patient and you. Each decision you make for the patient conservative care or step by step in the OR can have life altering effects to your patient. So if it is nerves and responsibilty, I would seriously re-think a career in medicine at all. I know that sounds harsh.

2nd - Cali is one of the best states to practice in for podiatry. THe residency will not dictate which state you can get a liscence in.

3rd - I am still confused why some people consider sports medicine a conservative specialty in podiatry. Many sports injuries if occured in the non-athlete would be managed conservatively/non-surgically. But, in the athlete many injuries are treated surgically specifically because they are athletes.
I definitely look at sports medicine as a surgical specialty.


That is my 2 cents on the issue.
 
Wound care requires surgery...ie. incision and drainage of wound abscesses, debridement and amputations.
 
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I agree with a significant amount of what Krabmas has to say. If you are afraid of responsibility, you should re-think the entire medicine field. Even if you were to practice "non-surgical" podiatry, there are important decisions made on a daily basis that take considerable responsibility as krabmas pointed out.

Yes, I did mention both wound care and sports medicine as "non-surgical" alternatives. Yes, both of those "specialties" can certainly encompass a significant amount of surgical care, but both of those specialties can also be practiced without significant surgical intervention.

A wound care practice can involve office care and simple debridement, prevention, infection management, etc., with referral for complicated cases. A sports medicine practice can also include fracture care, tapings, physical therapy modalities, orthoses, injections, sport specific training, bracing, etc., with referral for surgical cases.

I personally know of two different DPM's who have these types of practices and do not perform any surgical procedures other than simple wound debridements, nail procedures, soft tissue lesion excisions (warts) and biopsies.
 
The bottom line is that, as a DPM, you probably won't be doing as much surgery (esp bone/joint surgery) as many pre-pods and pod students think.

So how much surgery does the average podiatrist (who chooses to) performs?
 
I really don't think there's an accurate answer to your question. If you ask 10 podiatrists, you'll probably get 11 different answers!

Additionally, there are some surgical procedures that are much more complicated than other procedures and/or much more time consuming. I prefer not to use the term "minor" surgery vs. "major" surgery, because to a patient there is no such thing as "minor" surgery.

As one of my mentors once told me, there is no such thing as "minor" surgery, there are only "minor" surgeons. His point was that you should never trivialize any surgery.

There are surveys each year by the APMA and Podiatry Management magazine and the numbers often vary. Considering that there are doctors that I know that perform 8-12 cases weekly, and others that I know that perform 2-4 monthly, I would say that the national average would probably be 1-2 procedures weekly. Naturally, as stated there are some that perform significantly more and some that perform significantly less, but I'd say 1-2 weekly is probably a fair "average".
 
Thanks PADPM. That sounds pretty good though.
 
PADPM,

I just want to clarify something. So in your experience you would say that the average is 1-2 procedures per week or 1-2 cases per week. The podiatrist that I am shadowing is in his OR about 1-2 times per week but he usually performs more than 1 procedures at a time on the same patient.
 
... you would say that the average is 1-2 procedures per week or 1-2 cases per week...
It all depends on the DPM. ACFAS and APMA prac mgmt surveys have ran the numbers, and the only factors strongly correlated to higher income were ABPS cert and seeing more pts (ie getting out of bed in the morning and working hard)... not necessarily doing more surgery.

I'm sure that ABPS rearfoot recon ankle cert DPMs do more surgery than ABPS foot cert do more than non-ABPS, and residency affiliated DPMs do more surg than non-affiliated, etc. However, there are exceptions to every rule.

Like PADPM said, you see the whole spectrum when you get out there on office, school, and clerk/resident rotations. There are guys who refer out all surgery, guys who fix just one or two bunions/toes every month, and guys who usually board double digit foot/ankle cases each week. A lot depends on training level, number of pts they see, and just what they want their practice/consults/referrals emphasis to be... biomech, wounds, elective, trauma, etc.
 
Feli is correct. There are so many factors involved, and in my opinion, geographic area can also play a major role in those numbers.

In some areas, patients are insured primarily by managed care contracts and these patients may be "capitated", which means the doctor is payed one lump sum per month, no matter how many times a patient is seen and no matter what procedure(s) are performed, including surgery.

Therefore, you can perform a major reconstructive surgery on a patient with an external frame and spend hours out of the office, in the O.R. and collect ZERO dollars for the case.

Yes, ideally we should all be performing surgery when indicated and treating patients and not insurance companies. But the reality is that doctors would be going out of business if they were aggressively pursuing surgical cases and spending their entire day in the O.R. on these capitated patients. So unfortunately many doctors with a lot of capitated managed care contracts simply choose not to perform much surgery.

Additionally, many younger doctors are rather aggressive and some are aggressive gathering cases in order to obtain board certification. In our practice, we actually keep an eye on this, to make sure that our younger docs are only performing surgery when indicated.

And some of us have "been there, done that" and realize that despite excellent training, having obtained all the certifications and letters and initials after our names, etc., etc., sometimes conservative care is a great alternative for a patient.

For example, I had a patient that was "primed and ready to go" in my office yesterday. She was 88 years of age and entered my office REQUESTING a bunionectomy. She was seen two weeks earlier by another DPM who does not perform surgery. He recommended conservative care and she wasn't happy with that recommendation.

Therefore, she sought my opinion, knowing that I've performed surgery on some of her friends, relatives, etc. She had a painful lesion on her 2nd toe secondary to pressure from her hallux/bunion. Therefore, she wanted her bunion corrected. She had absolutely NO bunion pain. She had bilateral pedal edema, no hair growth to bilateral lower extremities and faint pulses.

Regardless of her vascular status and/or age, she had NO bunion/HAV pain and a very small keratotic lesion in the first interspace. Simple padding to prevent irritation was all that was required to prevent recurrence, in addition to shoes with a slighter wider toebox.

One of our younger associates was in the office and was licking his chops and didn't understand why I would "pass up" on a patient that was actually ASKING for surgery!!!! He thought I was crazy, until I sat him down and gave him a dose of reality.

Having served as a surgical residency director, I had exposure to a lot of DPM's and can tell you that the amount of surgeries a DPM performs is NOT always linked to his/her training, or his/her credentials (APMA, ABPS, ACFAS) but can often be linked to a doctors morals and ethics.

I've seen doctors that I wouldn't let cut my pet's toenails book 10-15 cases a week. Out of those 10-15 cases, I would say it's safe to say that if those patients were in my office only 1 or 2 would end up in the O.R.

Obviously, the better your training, the more surgery you will be able to perform. I always tell my residents that it's their role to use their skills responsibly, and with control. Patients are placing their TRUST in you, therefore, I urge them to only use their surgical skills when they are truly indicated, not for financial gain and not to boost their egos.
 
great post. there are many lessons to be learned here and philosophies to carry forward.
 
Ahhh. I see what you guys are saying. Thanks Feli and PADPM for your very informative posts 👍
 
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So I had my ingrown toenails removed today (2nd time). Previously, one toe was very infected and I was in a lot of pain. This time because the toe was not infected the doctor used a chemical to kill the root. I was able to have a very nice conversation with the podiatrist. He was very informative and helpful. I asked him if it would be necessary for me to do surgery if I wanted to become a podiatrist and he made it clear that it was not necessary when you actually practice but you will have to go through surgical procedures before you actually become a Podiatrist. Moreover, he stated that it is actually more beneficial in terms of salary to do more non surgical procedures in comparison to surgical.

Lastly, he stated that he would like me to come back in a month for a check up. Do you know if the Doctor will charge for me coming back for a check up? Also, in general how much does he get for an ingrown toenail removal? Thank you!
 
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..Additionally, many younger doctors are rather aggressive and some are aggressive gathering cases in order to obtain board certification. In our practice, we actually keep an eye on this, to make sure that our younger docs are only performing surgery when indicated...

...She had absolutely NO bunion pain. She had bilateral pedal edema, no hair growth to bilateral lower extremities and faint pulses. Regardless of her vascular status and/or age, she had NO bunion/HAV pain and a very small keratotic lesion in the first interspace. Simple padding to prevent irritation was all that was required to prevent recurrence, in addition to shoes with a slighter wider toebox.

One of our younger associates was in the office and was licking his chops and didn't understand why I would "pass up" on a patient that was actually ASKING for surgery!!!! He thought I was crazy, until I sat him down and gave him a dose of reality...
Very good point there. I'm actually fairly concerned about this. If I start my own practice, even in a non-saturated region, I'll obviously have relatively few pts in the beginning. With the way things are set up now, there is always that pressure in the back of your mind to board many/diverse cases for ABPS cert. It kinda twists your arm, but with the way so many residencies fudge their RF numbers or claim the residents are doing "C" cases when they're basically just watching/retracting, I respect that ABPS effectively tries to act as the guard dog for pt safety and pod F&A surgeon competence.

With those numbers in mind, I've switched my plans to buying in/out with a surg or semi-surg practice or joining a multi-spec group while I start my own practice. I think that's honestly the best way to go so that I have a decent number of pts and can get ABPS cert relatively fast without having to "push" surgery as much in those early years out of residency. The numbers/diversity ABPS requires are very reasonable IMO (65 forefoot, 30 rearfoot), but it getting to those marks depends a lot on the level of saturation in your practice area as well as DPM scope/privileging/expectations in the community. Who knows, though... a lot can change between now and when I finish residency.
 
I've seen doctors that I wouldn't let cut my pet's toenails book 10-15 cases a week.

I know this was not the point of your post but...

Your pets toe nails (I am assuming you are talking about a cat or dog) may be more challenging to cut that your patient's. It is easy to cut the quick and cause the dog undue pain and bleeding. So I would only trust a professional to cut my dog's nails. And, he has onychomycosis, anyone know a good doggy podiatrist?

So, did you send the patient with the faint pulses for a vascular consult?
 
krabmas,

Wow, are you busting my stones or WHAT??? Yes, I know the intricacies of actually cutting the nails of a feline and canine, but you knew I was simply attempting to make a point....

No, I did not send the patient for a vascular consult yet, because I did not believe it was indicated. Our office has non-invasive vascular testing in house, and we get well paid for the testing, but I did not believe it was indicated. Although the pulses were faint, they were palpable and no surgery was being performed or scheduled....yet. Treatment simply consisted of trimming of a painful keratotic lesion and the application of accommodative padding to prevent recurrence of the lesion and recommending shoes with a wider/higher toebox.

If at any time I believe there is vascular compromise, or surgical intervention IS being considered, the patient will be referred for a vascular consult. In the interim, I did not see the indication, nor did I see the need to "pad" the insurance bill by performing the vascular testing in our office.
 
krabmas,

Wow, are you busting my stones or WHAT??? Yes, I know the intricacies of actually cutting the nails of a feline and canine, but you knew I was simply attempting to make a point....

No, I did not send the patient for a vascular consult yet, because I did not believe it was indicated. Our office has non-invasive vascular testing in house, and we get well paid for the testing, but I did not believe it was indicated. Although the pulses were faint, they were palpable and no surgery was being performed or scheduled....yet. Treatment simply consisted of trimming of a painful keratotic lesion and the application of accommodative padding to prevent recurrence of the lesion and recommending shoes with a wider/higher toebox.

If at any time I believe there is vascular compromise, or surgical intervention IS being considered, the patient will be referred for a vascular consult. In the interim, I did not see the indication, nor did I see the need to "pad" the insurance bill by performing the vascular testing in our office.



1st: I like balls better than stones.

2nd: I'm glad to see that you have a sense of humor.

3rd: I was not questioning your decision making just wondering. Have you found the non-invasive equipment helpful in making clinical decisions? What tests can you do? I would argue that palpable pulses are not a good indication of perfusion, but again as you mentioned with out the trauma of surgery the pt will most likely be fine.
 
I'm happy to hear that you like balls better than stones. That should make many men happy.

Although our practice does own a "state of the art" vascular unit, I'm still of the belief that each specialty should do what it does best. I am not a vascular surgeon, and therefore do not take advantage of our vascular unit on a regular basis. I leave the vascular expertise up to the vascular experts, and they leave the lower extremity expertise up to me.

Although I am also well versed regarding infections, etc., I still consult with the infectious disease specialists, 'cause that's what THEY do the best. I think you get my point.

Yes, during residency you are being trained to learn and become competent in everything, but in private practice it's sometimes more prudent to let each specialty do what they do best. UNLESS you practice in an area where there simply aren't competent specialists.

I am fortunate and practice close to one of the most prestigious major teaching hospitals in the country. As a result, I have the ability to consult with top notch specialists, some of whom literally "wrote the book" on many topics. Therefore, I DO utilize these amazing resources, because ultimately it's my patients that benefit, and naturally I learn from their expertise.

Some of my partners don't always share my practice philosophy and simply like to use the vascular testing as a good way to add extra income.

Although high ankle/brachial indexes (ABI's) are not necessarily indicative of good perfusion (since an ABI can be falsely elevated due to vascular calcification), I have found that if a patient has palpable pulses, it is a very good indicator that there is usually pretty good perfusion.

As a matter of fact, the chief of vascular surgery at one of the largest and most prestigious teaching hospitals in this country shares my belief. We have discussed many cases, and his feeling is that barring extenuating circumstances, if a patient has palpable pedal pulses, no additional vascular testing is indicated.

And in my 20+ years of practice, I can not think of one single patient that had palpable pedal pulses that had a non healing wound or some type of vascular compromise or some type of complication linked to a vascular complication. Naturally, I am not referring to patients with vasospastic disorders such as Raynauds or other underlying contributing diseases.
 
Although our practice does own a "state of the art" vascular unit, I'm still of the belief that each specialty should do what it does best. I am not a vascular surgeon, and therefore do not take advantage of our vascular unit on a regular basis. I leave the vascular expertise up to the vascular experts, and they leave the lower extremity expertise up to me.
Yep.

Although I am also well versed regarding infections, etc., I still consult with the infectious disease specialists, 'cause that's what THEY do the best.
Yep.

Yes, during residency you are being trained to learn and become competent in everything, but in private practice it's sometimes more prudent to let each specialty do what they do best. UNLESS you practice in an area where there simply aren't competent specialists.
Yep.
 
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Surgery is an acquired taste.

You really don't know if you will like it until you do it for a while. It can break up the monotony of a boring week by doing something a little more challenging.

Just remember though, podiatry is heavy on surgical procedures. We are surgeons and physicians of the foot and ankle and higher in some states.
 
Whiskers,

You state "Just remember though, podiatry is heavy on surgical procedures".

What does that mean and what statistics do you have to back up that statement? What does "heavy on surgical procedures mean?

I've been ABPS board certified for a long time, I've been an examiner for the ABPS and perform the full spectrum of foot/ankle surgery in a very busy practice and NEVER described my practice "heavy on surgical procedures".

I simply perform surgery when indicated and when conservative options have not been successful.

By the way, exactly what is your status in terms of your training? Are you a student, resident, fellow, attending?
 
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From some of the statements that have been made by "Whiskers", I'm not sure if he/she is any of the above.
 
From some of the statements that have been made by "Whiskers", I'm not sure if he/she is any of the above.

I find wiskers entertaining - and this is not a sarcastic comment.

I find his/her honestness refreshing.

If Wiskers infact was in pod school and finished he/she shoule be in residency and either a 2nd or 3rd year. If my calculations are correct.

He/she used to post about things that happened in pod school that one would only know if they attended a pod school.

If wiskers all the sudden let us know who he/she was or where they went to school or residency they would not be able to be so honest. just imo.
 
There's a huge difference between honesty and constant sarcasm and downright "nasty".

In a different thread a college student asked for some information regarding a research paper. Some people came on in an attempt to help the kid, but "Whiskers" instead decided to degrade the kids knowledge and education, etc.

Later on when someone eventually did provide the original poster with useful advice and the original poster was appreciative enough to reply with a "thank you", of course "Whiskers" was a wise ass and had to come back and respond with a "you're welcome".

In my opinion, this can only reflect "Whiskers" future interactions with his/her patients and reflects an overall attitude that I see as unhealthy.

There are many comments that "Whiskers" makes that prove that there is not much experience beyond the comments made. Comments such as Medi-scam (referring to Medicare) and the fact that we should all drop out of Medicare, etc. are just one example.

I attempted to explain just one reason why dropping out of Medicare would be disastrous for most podiatric physicians in an earlier post. However, if Whiskers has a grandmother or elderly relative that requires foot care, or has a diabetic complication or has ANY medical ailment for that matter, would he/she be satisfied if there were NO doctors availble to treat his grandmother because they all decided "Medi-scam" was not worthy and dropped out?

In my years in the profession, I've been exposed to a very wide variety of personalities and I know what eventually equates with success.

Yes, some can argue that when hidden behind an anonymous internet screen name, you can act any way you want, but I don't buy that theory.

Additionally, no one is asking for Whiskers to identify his/her name or program to blow his/her cover. I simply asked the present level of training in very general terms, such as student, resident, fellow or attending. I fail to see how that will interfere with the "honesty" of the replies.

My wife and kids aren't DPM's but can also recite some pretty accurate stories/events of the past!
 
There's a huge difference between honesty and constant sarcasm and downright "nasty".

In a different thread a college student asked for some information regarding a research paper. Some people came on in an attempt to help the kid, but "Whiskers" instead decided to degrade the kids knowledge and education, etc.

Later on when someone eventually did provide the original poster with useful advice and the original poster was appreciative enough to reply with a "thank you", of course "Whiskers" was a wise ass and had to come back and respond with a "you're welcome".

In my opinion, this can only reflect "Whiskers" future interactions with his/her patients and reflects an overall attitude that I see as unhealthy.

There are many comments that "Whiskers" makes that prove that there is not much experience beyond the comments made. Comments such as Medi-scam (referring to Medicare) and the fact that we should all drop out of Medicare, etc. are just one example.

I attempted to explain just one reason why dropping out of Medicare would be disastrous for most podiatric physicians in an earlier post. However, if Whiskers has a grandmother or elderly relative that requires foot care, or has a diabetic complication or has ANY medical ailment for that matter, would he/she be satisfied if there were NO doctors availble to treat his grandmother because they all decided "Medi-scam" was not worthy and dropped out?

In my years in the profession, I've been exposed to a very wide variety of personalities and I know what eventually equates with success.

Yes, some can argue that when hidden behind an anonymous internet screen name, you can act any way you want, but I don't buy that theory.

Additionally, no one is asking for Whiskers to identify his/her name or program to blow his/her cover. I simply asked the present level of training in very general terms, such as student, resident, fellow or attending. I fail to see how that will interfere with the "honesty" of the replies.

My wife and kids aren't DPM's but can also recite some pretty accurate stories/events of the past!

Well said. I agree.
 
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