"I don't think you want to go to med school; I think you want to get in."

[circulus vitios]

Yes, I do. And I also know people YEARS out of residency who do not.
One FM making around 150
Two Peds at around 130
And one Ophtho making around 115!! He told me he should have went dental.

I have a distant relative who has been out of law school for around 5 years. He handled an agricultural case for a few local farmers who received contaminated seed from a crop company. The farmers were granted a little over a cool million in the settlement. The lawyer who took their case, lets just say he is doing just fine .

Ask him how many million dollar settlements he's handled in the past 5 years. Probably one.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Regarding the OP's original question, the answer is:

I don't think it matters.

I'm not a med student yet (I matriculate in the fall.) However, as a pre-med, I struggled for YEARS over whether my motives were "pure" enough to warrant me going to medical school, whether I was just paying lip service with the usual soundbites of "helping people, like science, etc."

Ever read Hamlet? With all his dilly-dallying, failures to launch, and to-be-or-not-to-be's? That's me with whether or not to go to med school.

Truth is, some people are lucky in that they are either inherently called to the medical profession or they have some profound experience that convinces them of the fact. However, I suspect that for most applicants, there is not enough impetus to meet the lofty bar set by the medical community/admissions committees.

I think that's okay however. Why? Because what your "feelings/motivations" are currently will probably have little bearing over how you will feel as a physician. Time and again, the consensus stands among practicing physicians that you don't actually know whether you'll like medicine/your specialty until your chief residency year or maybe even beyond. By then, chances are you will be a completely different person than you are now. Compare yourself now to when you were in a high school freshman, or even a college freshman. Note the changes in outlook, life philosophy, wants, needs, etc. The disparity between who you are now and who you will be as an attending physician will likely be just as drastic.

No matter how many pre-meds say on their personal statements or in their interviews how SURE they are that they want to go into medicine, I believe that NO one is 100% sure. There is an inherent, built-in, and unavoidable level of uncertainty to this whole process. The thing I was sure about was that if I didn't go to med school, I would have no job prospects worth a damn in this Bear-ish economy now or in the future. I was willing to risk a little "Oooo, this kinda sucks for a minute" than "I have no food to eat now or in the indefinite future."

So your SO is putting your motives under scrutiny. So what? It's not like he can predict with certainty that your current "mis-motives" will determine the course of your future. No one can do that. Life is too variable.

Don't kill your story before it even lifts off the ground. Who cares if it doesn't begin perfectly? I say, if you have a shot, take it.

 

[chemsmith]

Yes, I do. And I also know people YEARS out of residency who do not.
One FM making around 150
Two Peds at around 130
And one Ophtho making around 115!! He told me he should have went dental.

I have a distant relative who has been out of law school for around 5 years. He handled an agricultural case for a few local farmers who received contaminated seed from a crop company. The farmers were granted a little over a cool million in the settlement. The lawyer who took their case, lets just say he is doing just fine .

well that settles it

 

[punkedoutriffs]

well that settles it

I think... Yes, I think I will withdraw now.

 

[pepes1lv1a]

No matter how many pre-meds say on their personal statements or in their interviews how SURE they are that they want to go into medicine, I believe that NO one is 100% sure. There is an inherent, built-in, and unavoidable level of uncertainty to this whole process. The thing I was sure about was that if I didn't go to med school, I would have no job prospects worth a damn in this Bear-ish economy now or in the future. I was willing to risk a little "Oooo, this kinda sucks for a minute" than "I have no food to eat now or in the indefinite future."

I didn't really know what sort of answer I was looking for but this is it. Thank you. I did the Hamlet gig in college with choosing a major -- and I balked, and took a hillion skillion credits per semester so I wouldn't miss out on the right major if I found it, and now my grades are the main thing holding me back (and my job prospects with my neuro b.s. are bogus). I'm not sure how realistic my chance is but I've asked about it in other threads before, and from what I gather, I'm better off trying and failing and trying again next year than waiting.

 

[Bamfu]

Haha! What an awesome gif!

 

[tantacles]

What's with the rude posts?

The OP has brought up an interesting point, and probably one that many people haven't fully weighed; in my opinion the medical school application process is rigorous enough that it takes away time from actually reflecting on whether medical school is what a person really wants to do. Admissions has become an ends in itself.

And the top law schools still have mid to high 90% post-graduation employment rates.

That includes employment in any field, not just law. That includes starbucks barista, bank teller, and factory worker.

 

[deleted307836]

That includes employment in any field, not just law. That includes starbucks barista, bank teller, and factory worker.

Yep. I think I remember an article from a few years ago that mentioned some schools would even hire their recent grads to do menial work, publish the employment stats, and promptly let them go...

 

[Ar2]

Ask him how many million dollar settlements he's handled in the past 5 years. Probably one.

This wasn't the only one. Now, I'm not saying by any means that they just all land in his lap. But this is not the only one he has handled. Not bad for just being 5 years out. It also kind of eases your daily workload when you receive 1 to 2 mill in a settlement. I personally don't know any physicians netting a million 5 years out of residency. But of course, just because I don't know of any certainly doesn't mean that they do not exist. I know my reference is anecdotal, but I was just chiming in with a little info that I knew of first hand.

Every job is just that....a job. One has to work hard & be dedicated to their craft in order to be successful. This applies to any profession. It all comes down to finding what you enjoy doing, & what fits your given personality. If you work hard & continue to refine your craft, success will follow. A little luck in life never hurts either

 

[yellowfish]

That includes employment in any field, not just law. That includes starbucks barista, bank teller, and factory worker.

I'm well aware of that. And the $160,000 median post-graduation salary rate.

 

[yellowfish]

Yea...this is simply not true. What the law schools post is complete BS. Employment rates don't specify what type of employment..did they get a job in law? Also, many law schools...especially top ones that want to keep their rankings high..have been paying for fellowships at top firms for their students to work in after they graduate. So the school basically pays the salary for the graduate while they work at the firm. They count that in their employment rates.

It's not true because they didn't get a job specifically in law? Oh, ok.

Rationalization at its best. SO surprised to hear this kind of stuff in a medical forum.

 

[Textbookversion]

Law is a scam.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

 

[thefritz]

One cause of burnout: being attracted (subconsciously) to the prestige and importance of being a physician, getting in and realizing it's not what you signed up for, but having too much loan debt to quit.

This. Parents cram it down their kids throats their whole lives because of the inflated incomes and they subconsciously feel inferior if they do anything other than become a doctor (why does so-and-so get to make 5 times as much money as I do, I did better than him in high school and college and work really hard). They want to want to do it and suppress any feelings of possibly it not being that great after all. Most of med school hides the day to day practice. Med school is not equal to being a doctor. Med school, you get to relax when the test or rotation is over because you're done. There's no way to really get an idea what it is until you actually have to do it. Otherwise your mind will spin it to justify the money and recognition, which is subconsciously what you want.

 

[LiamNeesons]

My SO said this to me the other day and it gave me pause. He has just finished law school, though he majored in molecular biology as an undergraduate and scored well on the MCAT (he won't tell me exactly because it's well over my 34Q and he doesn't want to be an ass about it) -- he took the MCAT and the LSAT before going overseas for 2 tours in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq. He had a lot of time to think about where he wanted to end up after his active-duty service, and chose law school. He's just now finishing his last semester and beginning to prepare for the bar, and by all accounts he could not be happier to finally be done. He thought the majority of the courses were extraordinarily boring and hated the endless legal briefs and papers. He is passionate about going into criminal law, but not so much law school itself.

He didnt score well on the MCAT. He doesn't want to lie, and he doesn't want you to think he's stupid.

 

[chemsmith]

He didnt score well on the MCAT. He doesn't want to lie, and he doesn't want you to think he's stupid.

Those were my thoughts exactly.

 

[dennycrane59]

The top 14 law schools graduate about 5,000 people a year.. As a general rule of thumb these guys are going to be pretty well off (they may not get the outcome they would like but they will get decent outcomes). Columbia Law School (my school) has a 1.6% unemployment rate 9 months after graduation. 75.6% of last years class went on to NLJ 250 firms (biglaw) with a median starting salary of $162,000.

Now that 75.6% is pretty exceptional.. but most of the rest of the top 14 (harvard to cornell) are close behind and actually self-select out of biglaw (students who want to do biggov, academia, public interest, prestigious clerkships, etc). At the top level.. law students who would have gone to medical school or engineering school or whatever else struck their fancy if they had skipped law school (like OP's SO).. life is still pretty good. As long as you aren't the very very bottom of your class you are going to end up doing alright.

 

[Wifey1985]

The top 14 law schools graduate about 5,000 people a year.. As a general rule of thumb these guys are going to be pretty well off (they may not get the outcome they would like but they will get decent outcomes). Columbia Law School (my school) has a 1.6% unemployment rate 9 months after graduation. 75.6% of last years class went on to NLJ 250 firms (biglaw) with a median starting salary of $162,000.

Now that 75.6% is pretty exceptional.. but most of the rest of the top 14 (harvard to cornell) are close behind and actually self-select out of biglaw (students who want to do biggov, academia, public interest, prestigious clerkships, etc). At the top level.. law students who would have gone to medical school or engineering school or whatever else struck their fancy if they had skipped law school (like OP's SO).. life is still pretty good. As long as you aren't the very very bottom of your class you are going to end up doing alright.

Good, someone posting about law who actually knows something about the profession beyond what is on the internet and in the NYT.

I am genuinely baffled by the hostility on SDN towards legal peeps. It is seriously dragging me down the rabbit hole and I'm sure it's just better not to engage all the BS comments, but I will say this: unless you personally work in the legal profession, you should probably stfu about how much it "sucks."

@OP, I'm really sorry your thread was hijacked, and I'm really sorry that I participated in that hijacking. AND, I'm really sorry some decided to jump down your throat about your SO. You sound like a smart girl (I assumed you're a girl, sorry if that's wrong), and I'm sure you can make grown up decisions about your own relationship. As for your original question, I think the fact that you're taking pause to ask yourself these questions shows a level of maturity beyond what many pre-meds possess. Good luck with your decision, and I hope you kick major butt if you decide to apply. It might be an uphill battle because of your "low" GPA, but adversity builds character. Embrace that and make it part of your story

 

[pepes1lv1a]

He didnt score well on the MCAT. He doesn't want to lie, and he doesn't want you to think he's stupid.

Those were my thoughts exactly.

It's an insult my intelligence that so many people are coming here to tell me this. Please read the followup post before any more people come to harass me about what an ******* I'm dating. "I got a higher score than you on the MCAT, but I won't tell you what it is" is not how I found out.

 

[circulus vitios]

I am genuinely baffled by the hostility on SDN towards legal peeps. It is seriously dragging me down the rabbit hole and I'm sure it's just better not to engage all the BS comments, but I will say this: unless you personally work in the legal profession, you should probably stfu about how much it "sucks."

Or unless you've spent any appreciable amount of time reading about horror stories from Inside the Law School Scam, AutoAdmit, top-law-schools.com, JDUnderground, lawschooltransparency.com, etc.

 

[dennycrane59]

Or unless you've spent any appreciable amount of time reading about horror stories from Inside the Law School Scam, AutoAdmit, top-law-schools.com, JDUnderground, lawschooltransparency.com, etc.

Saying that there are a lot of foolish people going to low ranked law schools they shouldn't go to and failing to think about the costs/benefits (debt/employment) is very different from the mantra on this site that law is a dead profession that only idiots enter. There are plenty of high paying legal jobs now and there will be plenty in 30 years. People who go to Cooley Law aren't going to get them though. But someone who goes to a t-14 on a halfway decent scholarship? Its very likely they're gonna be alright

 

[deleted393595]

It's an insult my intelligence that so many people are coming here to tell me this. Please read the followup post before any more people come to harass me about what an ******* I'm dating. "I got a higher score than you on the MCAT, but I won't tell you what it is" is not how I found out.

Stage I: Denial

 

[Microglia]

It's an insult my intelligence that so many people are coming here to tell me this. Please read the followup post before any more people come to harass me about what an ******* I'm dating. "I got a higher score than you on the MCAT, but I won't tell you what it is" is not how I found out.

I don't know how all this flaming happened (I'm guessing talking about a lawyer with a high MCAT score is a on SDN haha), but sorry that it did OP. As to your original question, I think it sounds like you have a good idea of what you're doing; trust your instincts and choose the path that seems right. It's all anyone can really do in life.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

It's an insult my intelligence that so many people are coming here to tell me this. Please read the followup post before any more people come to harass me about what an ******* I'm dating. "I got a higher score than you on the MCAT, but I won't tell you what it is" is not how I found out.

I still don't understand the timeline. He took both LSAT and MCAT at the end of college, hopped into the military, did four tours in Iraqistan and 5-7 years minimum in the military, then somehow used those expired scores to get into law school?

Edit: Just went back and read your comments. It still seems tough to squeeze in a Bachelor's degree, Marine Corps basic, special ops qualification and training, four combat TDYs/deployments, LSAT, MCAT, law school applications, and three years of law school before your 28th birthday. He's either Superman or embellishing.

I picked up a hitchhiker a few years ago who told me he won two Medals of Honor...

 

[pepes1lv1a]

I still don't understand the timeline. He took both LSAT and MCAT at the end of college, hopped into the military, did four tours in Iraqistan and 5-7 years minimum in the military, then somehow used those expired scores to get into law school?

Edit: Just went back and read your comments. It still seems tough to squeeze in a Bachelor's degree, Marine Corps basic, special ops qualification and training, four combat TDYs/deployments, LSAT, MCAT, law school applications, and three years of law school before your 28th birthday. He's either Superman or embellishing.

I picked up a hitchhiker a few years ago who told me he won two Medals of Honor...

To anyone that actually answered my question, I sincerely appreciate knowing I'm not the only one who feels crazily zoomed in on the app process. To everyone else, I am leaving now, bicker amongst yourselves

 

[ToldYouSo]

I am genuinely baffled by the hostility on SDN towards legal peeps.

Lawyers and doctors are natural enemies in the wild. They have an instinctual and genetic dislike for one another, similar to that of lions and hyenas.

 

[chemsmith]

To anyone that actually answered my question, I sincerely appreciate knowing I'm not the only one who feels crazily zoomed in on the app process. To everyone else, I am leaving now, bicker amongst yourselves

see ya, give your boyfriend a big ol' kiss for us

 

[Wifey1985]

Lawyers and doctors are natural enemies in the wild. They have an instinctual and genetic dislike for one another, similar to that of lions and hyenas.

Well then why so many Huxtable-esque couples out there in the real world?

 

[thefritz]

The major difference between medicine and law consist of 2 things

1)The barrier to entry in Medicine is getting into an American Medical school. Once you do that you will probably work as a doctor. The barrier for entry in law(first job in law) is a combination of your school rank/class rank/connections/luck/ability to hustle

2) There is virtually 0 unemployment in medicine. A lot of you underrate the job security medicine provides. Even if you "make it" in law you can lose it at any time. Most dudes who get big law get pushed out after a few years, some land good jobs after that, some dont. Even biglaw partners get pushed out sometimes. There are plenty of stories of former equity partners working temporary doc review at an hourly rate with no benefits.

It's not all peachy once you get your acceptance letter. The suck has just begun. Medicine is extremely unforgiving. If you don't pass your boards, if you have a delay to graduation, if you go to a crappy school, if you develop a mental illness, etc, then you can very likely end up high and dry. People get dismissed from med school, people fail to match a residency (even qualified applicants), people get dismissed from residencies, people loose their license, people get fired, people have to compete for clients, your practice can go under, you can be sued for negligence, all of this **** can still happen. There are plenty of stories of docs screwing up and taking locum tenens when they can find one nearby or working for low hourly rates at nursing homes, prisons, rural walk-ins, etc.

The system doesn't allow for a normal life. Forget about being able to visit any sort of establishment that is only open during business hours (i.e., banks, post offices, other doctors offices, your child's school, the cleaners, or even go outside in the sun for 15 minutes and read the newspaper on a park bench -- you know, things that most non-imprisoned, non-disabled people do), you're lucky if you can eat a lunch while sitting down. Learn to dictate with your mouth full and power walk everywhere. Learn to live on 5 hours of sleep a night if you want a semblance of home life. You either adapt to this unofficially demanded superhuman pace or washout bitter and broke and find another line of work or kill yourself.

Getting into med school is not the winning lottery ticket most people think it is.

 

[thefritz]

One FM making around 150
Two Peds at around 130
And one Ophtho making around 115!! He told me he should have went dental.

I know an IM with 20 yrs experience at 80k/yr working 60hrs/week + q4 call.
He could make a little more if he saw more patients, but he is more concerned with giving them more than a 10 minute great and treat than lining his pockets. He's probably the best internist I know.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

I know an IM with 20 yrs experience at 80k/yr working 60hrs/week + q4 call.
He could make a little more if he saw more patients, but he is more concerned with giving them more than a 10 minute great and treat than lining his pockets. He's probably the best internist I know.

Yea but that's a choice, not a necessity. He could very well work as a hospitalist for a little more than half the hours and make 3x the money.

 

[Entadus]

It's not all peachy once you get your acceptance letter. The suck has just begun. Medicine is extremely unforgiving. If you don't pass your boards, if you have a delay to graduation, if you go to a crappy school, if you develop a mental illness, etc, then you can very likely end up high and dry. People get dismissed from med school, people fail to match a residency (even qualified applicants), people get dismissed from residencies, people loose their license, people get fired, people have to compete for clients, your practice can go under, you can be sued for negligence, all of this **** can still happen. There are plenty of stories of docs screwing up and taking locum tenens when they can find one nearby or working for low hourly rates at nursing homes, prisons, rural walk-ins, etc.

The system doesn't allow for a normal life. Forget about being able to visit any sort of establishment that is only open during business hours (i.e., banks, post offices, other doctors offices, your child's school, the cleaners, or even go outside in the sun for 15 minutes and read the newspaper on a park bench -- you know, things that most non-imprisoned, non-disabled people do), you're lucky if you can eat a lunch while sitting down. Learn to dictate with your mouth full and power walk everywhere. Learn to live on 5 hours of sleep a night if you want a semblance of home life. You either adapt to this unofficially demanded superhuman pace or washout bitter and broke and find another line of work or kill yourself.

Getting into med school is not the winning lottery ticket most people think it is.

LOL WOW!!!!

 

[Tommyguns89]

Or unless you've spent any appreciable amount of time reading about horror stories from Inside the Law School Scam, AutoAdmit, top-law-schools.com, JDUnderground, lawschooltransparency.com, etc.

or unless you are a current law student who knows a bunch of people in the top 20% of their class looking for 2l internships.

The thing that makes Medicine>>>>>law from a purely financial standpoint is the security. You arent going to see a US Med graduate who didnt majorly screw something up in whatever the medical equivalent of document review is. It is not uncommon for those who get biglaw to end up in doument review years later. Thats the ****ed up part of the way the law school game is these days. That six figure salary, is temporary for most graduates. This isnt a big deal when the economy is booming, just go in house after you get pushed out. However bad economy + massive over supply of lawyers leads to situations where you have Harvard Grads with bigfirm experience applying for entry level 60k a year positions.

That being said law school is a good deal these days IF you want to be something like a criminal defense attorney. As in you want to do it because you think you will enjoy the career even if you dont make a lot of money. Its easy to get full tuition scholarships to tier 2 schools and lower tier 1s, because college grads are wising up and those that break 160 on the lsat have applied in fewer numbers in recent years.

 

[Tommyguns89]

It's not all peachy once you get your acceptance letter. The suck has just begun. Medicine is extremely unforgiving. If you don't pass your boards, if you have a delay to graduation, if you go to a crappy school, if you develop a mental illness, etc, then you can very likely end up high and dry. People get dismissed from med school, people fail to match a residency (even qualified applicants), people get dismissed from residencies, people loose their license, people get fired, people have to compete for clients, your practice can go under, you can be sued for negligence, all of this **** can still happen. There are plenty of stories of docs screwing up and taking locum tenens when they can find one nearby or working for low hourly rates at nursing homes, prisons, rural walk-ins, etc.

The system doesn't allow for a normal life. Forget about being able to visit any sort of establishment that is only open during business hours (i.e., banks, post offices, other doctors offices, your child's school, the cleaners, or even go outside in the sun for 15 minutes and read the newspaper on a park bench -- you know, things that most non-imprisoned, non-disabled people do), you're lucky if you can eat a lunch while sitting down. Learn to dictate with your mouth full and power walk everywhere. Learn to live on 5 hours of sleep a night if you want a semblance of home life. You either adapt to this unofficially demanded superhuman pace or washout bitter and broke and find another line of work or kill yourself.

Getting into med school is not the winning lottery ticket most people think it is.

The point is that if you get into Med school and matriculate there is a greater than 90% chance that you will be working as a doctor. For law school that number according to Campos is around 33%(actual full time long term JD/bar required employment). Other sources put that number closer to 50% but I trust Campos as he has a first hand account of how schools manipulate the numbers as a law professor. Either way it is no comparison.

Working as a doctor may suck for you(not you specifically) but that is something you should determine before going to Med School.

 

[deleted307836]

I know an IM with 20 yrs experience at 80k/yr working 60hrs/week + q4 call.
He could make a little more if he saw more patients, but he is more concerned with giving them more than a 10 minute great and treat than lining his pockets. He's probably the best internist I know.

Yea but that's a choice, not a necessity. He could very well work as a hospitalist for a little more than half the hours and make 3x the money.

Yeah, exactly. Not that thefrtiz is arguing otherwise, but that doctor is very much an outlier. I would think most RN's make more on an hourly basis.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

this thread is delightful

It's not all peachy once you get your acceptance letter. The suck has just begun. Medicine is extremely unforgiving. If you don't pass your boards, if you have a delay to graduation, if you go to a crappy school, if you develop a mental illness, etc, then you can very likely end up high and dry. People get dismissed from med school, people fail to match a residency (even qualified applicants), people get dismissed from residencies, people loose their license, people get fired, people have to compete for clients, your practice can go under, you can be sued for negligence, all of this **** can still happen. There are plenty of stories of docs screwing up and taking locum tenens when they can find one nearby or working for low hourly rates at nursing homes, prisons, rural walk-ins, etc.

The system doesn't allow for a normal life. Forget about being able to visit any sort of establishment that is only open during business hours (i.e., banks, post offices, other doctors offices, your child's school, the cleaners, or even go outside in the sun for 15 minutes and read the newspaper on a park bench -- you know, things that most non-imprisoned, non-disabled people do), you're lucky if you can eat a lunch while sitting down. Learn to dictate with your mouth full and power walk everywhere. Learn to live on 5 hours of sleep a night if you want a semblance of home life. You either adapt to this unofficially demanded superhuman pace or washout bitter and broke and find another line of work or kill yourself.

Getting into med school is not the winning lottery ticket most people think it is.

you gotta be reaaaaaaaal special to get kicked out of med school, and you have to make a few mistakes not to match

 

[thefritz]

Yea but that's a choice, not a necessity. He could very well work as a hospitalist for a little more than half the hours and make 3x the money.

Yes, it's pretty clear the only reason someone would sign up for hospitalist work is because they need the money, which isn't that great either. And the schedule required for that kind of work is miserable (long continuous blocks followed by downtime).

I don't see the appeal at all. Primary care physicians have all sorts of other ways to supplement their income that doesn't require squeezing in more patients or becoming a hospital resident-employee/social worker.

 

[thefritz]

this thread is delightful



you gotta be reaaaaaaaal special to get kicked out of med school, and you have to make a few mistakes not to match

If you have the luxury of going to a top med school, the argument holds some validity.
If you're borderline at nowhere U's med school, then you could end up in trouble.

Also, matching in specialty (>3 year programs) is no cakewalk, especially last year. Again, top school you'll probably be ok for most fields with average or even below average scores. Lower schools, you need to blow away your usmle and shine on aways to have a shot at anything competitive. Below average from lower school? Good luck. DO trying MD or foreign? Prepare for a prelim with no categorical. It's bad and getting worse every year. I knew an excellent DO grad, fantastic resident, failed to match ortho --> failed to match FM --> prelim, programs surgery residency wouldn't take her after finishing --> did 2nd prelim --> still no categorical. I felt awful for her. Way more qualified than the bozos in the program. That said, I still think people should pick their residency based on what they want to do, not based on what has the highest average income or least working hours to match up with their board scores.

With the law school analogy, residencies are becoming the big law firms. Grads are going way up, open slots aren't. To have a good shot, you have to come from a name school or be top of your class. Applications get screened based on name of program and usmle scores. Tough, but that's about all they got to go on. Everybody's got glowing letters.

Law school was a pretty sure thing until the recession hit and caught everyone with their pants down spending money their future dollars before they got them.
Hmm, is there anything that could possibly cause the same kind of effects in medicine that nobody sees coming? Hmm, how are residency programs funded again? hmm...

 

[thefritz]

Yeah, exactly. Not that thefrtiz is arguing otherwise, but that doctor is very much an outlier. I would think most RN's make more on an hourly basis.

RNs don't make that much at all. They do ok, but unless you're a CRNA (whose time is about up), it's a solid middle class profession.

The $80k earnings of the physician, while scoffed at, still puts him in the realm of similar highly educated working professionals (engineers lawyers, architects, computer scientists, etc). His wife works and they take nice vacations and are able to raise a child. They're not rich, and they do alright. He wishes he made more, but he is happy with his job. That's more important because it makes him a better doctor. He has a waiting list a mile long for new patients.

 

[JohnFe]

I just want to say that I had to use Urban Dictionary to figure out what "SO" means.

 

[dennycrane59]

What are employment prospectives like for DO and carribean grads? These strike me as the equivalent of tier 2 and tier 3 law students in that they were most likely not competitive enough for spots at top US MD programs and decided to roll the die on the chance a riskier option might still pay off

 

[thefritz]

Believe what you want, but just because medicine's been a golden goose for some people doesn't mean it will be for you in 10-20 years. If you're applying to medical school, you should think hard about whether you will enjoy the hectic lifestyle and responsibility the job carries, and whether you can afford to go to medical school. NOT whether it is a safer way towards a higher income than law school. If you're after money, pursue what you enjoy and what you're best at. For instance, people rip on engineering because it doesn't pay well. Well, the 8-5 job doesn't pay well, but it gives you access to become an expert. You get rich by working on your own time, at home developing software, devices, whatever, that you can spin into your own business and sell. And you do that because you love doing it. I know at least 10 engineers than have done this sort of thing. And usually you don't even go looking for it. You just get good at what you do because you love it, and opportunities just pop up and you fall into it.

I find it paradoxical that people come to law school or med school because they are after money, but can't think outside of the box enough to consider it any more than a day job. If you stop at the 9-5 job in any field, including medicine and law, you'll never go far. If you pursue something you don't love simply because the BLS.gov website tells you it's got a super high average income, then you're not going to go far. You probably aren't going to want to be building medical devices in your spare time as a doctor. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just having a job, but I'm saying that if you guys are really serious about making money, real money, you'll understand that collecting fee for services from patients, or even worse, a paycheck from a hospital, isn't the way to do it.

 

[JohnFe]

Believe what you want, but just because medicine's been a golden goose for some people doesn't mean it will be for you in 10-20 years. If you're applying to medical school, you should think hard about whether you will enjoy the hectic lifestyle and responsibility the job carries, and whether you can afford to go to medical school. NOT whether it is a safer way towards a higher income than law school. If you're after money, pursue what you enjoy and what you're best at. For instance, people rip on engineering because it doesn't pay well. Well, the 8-5 job doesn't pay well, but it gives you access to become an expert. You get rich by working on your own time, at home developing software, devices, whatever, that you can spin into your own business and sell. And you do that because you love doing it. I know at least 10 engineers than have done this sort of thing. And usually you don't even go looking for it. You just get good at what you do because you love it, and opportunities just pop up and you fall into it.

I find it paradoxical that people come to law school or med school because they are after money, but can't think outside of the box enough to consider it any more than a day job. If you stop at the 9-5 job in any field, including medicine and law, you'll never go far. If you pursue something you don't love simply because the BLS.gov website tells you it's got a super high average income, then you're not going to go far. You probably aren't going to want to be building medical devices in your spare time as a doctor. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just having a job, but I'm saying that if you guys are really serious about making money, real money, you'll understand that collecting fee for services from patients, or even worse, a paycheck from a hospital, isn't the way to do it.

 

[Tommyguns89]

If you have the luxury of going to a top med school, the argument holds some validity.
If you're borderline at nowhere U's med school, then you could end up in trouble.

Also, matching in specialty (>3 year programs) is no cakewalk, especially last year. Again, top school you'll probably be ok for most fields with average or even below average scores. Lower schools, you need to blow away your usmle and shine on aways to have a shot at anything competitive. Below average from lower school? Good luck. DO trying MD or foreign? Prepare for a prelim with no categorical. It's bad and getting worse every year. I knew an excellent DO grad, fantastic resident, failed to match ortho --> failed to match FM --> prelim, programs surgery residency wouldn't take her after finishing --> did 2nd prelim --> still no categorical. I felt awful for her. Way more qualified than the bozos in the program. That said, I still think people should pick their residency based on what they want to do, not based on what has the highest average income or least working hours to match up with their board scores.

With the law school analogy, residencies are becoming the big law firms. Grads are going way up, open slots aren't. To have a good shot, you have to come from a name school or be top of your class. Applications get screened based on name of program and usmle scores. Tough, but that's about all they got to go on. Everybody's got glowing letters.

Law school was a pretty sure thing until the recession hit and caught everyone with their pants down spending money their future dollars before they got them.
Hmm, is there anything that could possibly cause the same kind of effects in medicine that nobody sees coming? Hmm, how are residency programs funded again? hmm...

This actually isnt exactly true, law has been glutted for decades. Its just that things are especially bad now and information is much more widely available. Also student loan debt was much lower and a law degree was actually useful for non legal employment back then.

You bring up a good point about the future, but for the time being if you go to a US Med School the odds are overwhelming that you will end up a practicing doctor. Maybe not in the specialty you want but you will be working a job that only somebody with a medical degree can do. It is a long ways off until we get to the point where 50% of US Med grads are working at starbucks.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Believe what you want, but just because medicine's been a golden goose for some people doesn't mean it will be for you in 10-20 years. If you're applying to medical school, you should think hard about whether you will enjoy the hectic lifestyle and responsibility the job carries, and whether you can afford to go to medical school. NOT whether it is a safer way towards a higher income than law school. If you're after money, pursue what you enjoy and what you're best at. For instance, people rip on engineering because it doesn't pay well. Well, the 8-5 job doesn't pay well, but it gives you access to become an expert. You get rich by working on your own time, at home developing software, devices, whatever, that you can spin into your own business and sell. And you do that because you love doing it. I know at least 10 engineers than have done this sort of thing. And usually you don't even go looking for it. You just get good at what you do because you love it, and opportunities just pop up and you fall into it.

I find it paradoxical that people come to law school or med school because they are after money, but can't think outside of the box enough to consider it any more than a day job. If you stop at the 9-5 job in any field, including medicine and law, you'll never go far. If you pursue something you don't love simply because the BLS.gov website tells you it's got a super high average income, then you're not going to go far. You probably aren't going to want to be building medical devices in your spare time as a doctor. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just having a job, but I'm saying that if you guys are really serious about making money, real money, you'll understand that collecting fee for services from patients, or even worse, a paycheck from a hospital, isn't the way to do it.

I agree, I just think the comparisons to law are kinda silly.

 

[thefritz]

This actually isnt exactly true, law has been glutted for decades. Its just that things are especially bad now and information is much more widely available. Also student loan debt was much lower and a law degree was actually useful for non legal employment back then.

You bring up a good point about the future, but for the time being if you go to a US Med School the odds are overwhelming that you will end up a practicing doctor. Maybe not in the specialty you want but you will be working a job that only somebody with a medical degree can do. It is a long ways off until we get to the point where 50% of US Med grads are working at starbucks.

I agree with you, but this has a lot to do with the strigent med school admissions criteria. By picking only students with 3.9 and up GPAs from competitive colleges, schools effectively weed out more balanced applicants who lack resources or have complicating life issues. These people are far more likely to make it through the hell of med school and residency without saying, eh, this isn't worth it, I'll do something else, or have financial or personal problems pop up during school and cause them to fail. I.e., it's not that med school and residency are easy and you can't fail. Trust me you can and people do. It is very hard to get through med school and pass the USMLE. The programs thus far are pretty good at selecting the most obsessive singularly focused students who uniformly do well. There's a reason everybody in med school looks the same and dresses the same and does the same things in their free time. Because they pretty much are the same. More and more new schools are popping up. We'll see what happens.

Like I said, med school is not winning the lottery letting meaning you can relax and breathe easy from now on. If you get in, you will have to bust your ass even harder than you did in undergrad just to pass. The career is conceptually difficult, but not that conceptually difficult. What makes it hard is the pace. And the pace just gets faster the farther you go in this profession.

 

[thefritz]

This actually isnt exactly true, law has been glutted for decades. Its just that things are especially bad now and information is much more widely available. Also student loan debt was much lower and a law degree was actually useful for non legal employment back then./QUOTE]

The issue with the legal field is that everyone wants to live in NYC, Boston, or LA.

Those markets are saturated. There are law firms all across the entire country that you don't need a top 10 diploma to work for. And a lot of these guys make a killing. In the podunk town I grew up in, one of the partners in the smaller firms (2 or 3 attorneys) drove an Aston. And it wasn't a PI firm either. There's work to be had.

People complain because they can't fathom living outside of NYC or doing anything besides corporate law and because they see a $50k associate opening in some small town and think that's their income for the rest of their life, which isn't true. Doctors are a little different in that they get that big fat carrot as soon as they hit the street.

 

[Tommyguns89]

This actually isnt exactly true, law has been glutted for decades. Its just that things are especially bad now and information is much more widely available. Also student loan debt was much lower and a law degree was actually useful for non legal employment back then./QUOTE]

The issue with the legal field is that everyone wants to live in NYC, Boston, or LA.

Those markets are saturated. There are law firms all across the entire country that you don't need a top 10 diploma to work for. And a lot of these guys make a killing. In the podunk town I grew up in, one of the partners in the smaller firms (2 or 3 attorneys) drove an Aston. And it wasn't a PI firm either. There's work to be had.

People complain because they can't fathom living outside of NYC or doing anything besides corporate law and because they see a $50k associate opening in some small town and think that's their income for the rest of their life, which isn't true. Doctors are a little different in that they get that big fat carrot as soon as they hit the street.

This isnt really true. The main problem is that there is about 20,000 new positions each year for around 40,000 grads.

True, that the situation is worse in metro areas, but breaking into a smaller market involves connections or a strong regional school for that area which most people dont have. Why would an employer hire an outsider when he has more than enough local applicants? One thing that is overlooked is that the region of your law school matters(unless you have strong ties to an area). Lawschooltransparency confirms this, as very few people find a job outside of the state their school resides in.

But we have derailed this topic more than enough already.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This actually isnt exactly true, law has been glutted for decades. Its just that things are especially bad now and information is much more widely available. Also student loan debt was much lower and a law degree was actually useful for non legal employment back then./QUOTE]

The issue with the legal field is that everyone wants to live in NYC, Boston, or LA.

Those markets are saturated. There are law firms all across the entire country that you don't need a top 10 diploma to work for. And a lot of these guys make a killing. In the podunk town I grew up in, one of the partners in the smaller firms (2 or 3 attorneys) drove an Aston. And it wasn't a PI firm either. There's work to be had.

People complain because they can't fathom living outside of NYC or doing anything besides corporate law and because they see a $50k associate opening in some small town and think that's their income for the rest of their life, which isn't true. Doctors are a little different in that they get that big fat carrot as soon as they hit the street.

@ thefritz

I know people who graduated from law school and some of them take 2-3 years just to find a job (in none of the states you have mentioned). These people are not in the top 10 or even top 50 schools for that matter. Plus you have to take the bar exam again for each state (only the state law portion), if applying across the country, so that is also a pain in the butt as well.

 

[circulus vitios]

I find it paradoxical that people come to law school or med school because they are after money, but can't think outside of the box enough to consider it any more than a day job. If you stop at the 9-5 job in any field, including medicine and law, you'll never go far. If you pursue something you don't love simply because the BLS.gov website tells you it's got a super high average income, then you're not going to go far. You probably aren't going to want to be building medical devices in your spare time as a doctor. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just having a job, but I'm saying that if you guys are really serious about making money, real money, you'll understand that collecting fee for services from patients, or even worse, a paycheck from a hospital, isn't the way to do it.

The vast majority of engineers never do this. Medicine is still the safest route to >$175k/year.