I don't want to be a DO, but I'm struggling

[Lannister]

Also sorry for any potential arrogance I have projected.
However, you all did have the opinion of me possibly being an AAMC employee so that mean I wasn't completely dumb/un knowledgeable about match rates and stuff.

Also, does anyone know how to delete posts to prevent situations like this from reoccurring (I want to delete my post that makes me age-identifiable)?


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You can't delete posts, but you can go back and edit them. Just edit the posts and replace what you said with "deleted" or "." or whatever.

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[bears1992]

What do you want us to say? If you'd rather be a pharmacist, then do that. If being an MD means that much to you, fix your stats.

 

[Hkhan]

You can't delete posts, but you can go back and edit them. Just edit the posts and replace what you said with "deleted" or "." or whatever.

Thanks.


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[Isoval]

YES, I know...
However, it DOES take time to go through the green book (Savarese) when that time could be (better?) used for step studying.


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I literally just said that there are NO ADDITIONAL STUDY MATERIAL OTHER THAN OMM.

Many people take their STEP BEFORE taking their COMLEX. So what do you mean "could be better used for step studying"? You already took the Step at that point.

 

[Mad Jack]

I have wanted to be a doctor my whole life, but I've seriously been getting advised to apply to DO schools. I know DOs are doctors, but I know that people look down on DOs and I don't want to know that for the rest of my life, I couldn't become an MD because my grades weren't up to par and now I'm viewed as a second tier doctor. I would rather not become a doctor than become a DO because of the title. I don't care about the money. Now, I never wanted to be a pharmacist, but I'm seriously considering pharmacy school because it seems safe. I just feel weird about it because all my energy has been in wanting to be a doctor. Am I dumb for thinking this way?

I know there's a lot of MD vs DO bull****, but idk. I don't really read that stuff. Don't argue on my thread.

It's okay, we don't want you to be one of us either. The last thing we need is another DO with a chip on his shoulder.

 

[Hkhan]

I literally just said that there are NO ADDITIONAL STUDY MATERIAL OTHER THAN OMM.

Many people take their STEP BEFORE taking their COMLEX. So what do you mean "could be better used for step studying"? You already took the Step at that point.

What do you mean "many?" Many people take COMLEX first (trial run for the real thing).

By the way, not studying OMM can result in a serious COMLEX score drop (which I actually asked a question about - look in my previous posts) and OMM is not just a small thing that you study - it includes classes which means more studying time (on top of boards time), and AS I SAID, this takes away from board study time [I am mystified as to why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...more info = more studying necessary (which means MDs have more studying time AND less material to know) = lower DO board scores].

Sorry, didn't see your "other than OMM" comment.

 

[kawi609]

now I'm viewed as a second tier doctor.

You are delusional!

 

[mcworbust]

Bye Felicia.

There are a couple of pretty good reasons to avoid DO. If you intend to practice abroad or have your heart set on a particularly DO-unfriendly specialty are a few of them.

One that is a very bad reason to avoid DO is what you've just described.

Do it. Go to pharmacy school. Somebody who actually wants the DO spot can have it now.

Totally agree with this^^. @guiltysadtrash - if you had come here and said that you're hesitant to go the DO route because you've known you wanted to be a Neurosurgeon from birth then I could understand, but your reasons are ridiculous regardless of whether you're just uninformed or not.

Don't go to med school. You're here for the wrong reasons. I'm not worried about you stealing a DO seat from someone who really wants it, because you'd never get past the interview. So, I guess don't steal an interview spot from someone who is here for the right reasons. I just hope you are a troll and not for real.

 

[Ad2b]

However, you all did have the opinion of me possibly being an AAMC employee

No, that was sarcasm... Please stay on the high school threads?

 

[WyomingMedStudent]

What do you mean "many?" Many people take COMLEX first (trial run for the real thing).

By the way, not studying OMM can result in a serious COMLEX score drop (which I actually asked a question about - look in my previous posts) and OMM is not just a small thing that you study - it includes classes which means more studying time (on top of boards time), and AS I SAID, this takes away from board study time [I am mystified as to why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...more info = more studying necessary (which means MDs have more studying time AND less material to know) = lower DO board scores].

Sorry, didn't see your "other than OMM" comment.

Dude, just step away from the keyboard. You really have little to nothing to contribute to this conversation.

 

[Hkhan]

Dude, just step away from the keyboard. You really have little to nothing to contribute to this conversation.

If that's your defense mechanism when you know you're beat ok bye.


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[clamsauce]

The op sounds like the equivalent of a homeless person saying they only drive audis

 

[Hkhan]

The op sounds like the equivalent of a homeless person saying they only drive audis

I mean they could have a 4.0 s/cGPA with a 520+ MCAT. I mean you never know lol.


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[JustintheDoctor]

This has to be the highest amount of ignorance I've seen in years

 

[clamsauce]

Yeah no doubt google those "highest IQ in the world " people and they look pretty shaggy. Hell why am I talking I'm a shag myself minus the high IQ

 

[altblue]

Ah my bad, thought @Ad2b was quoting OP lol. Advice I gave still applies to you. And I retract my apology for being harsh to the OP.

Lmao I was about to say, why are people telling a high schooler they need to apply DO

 

[ParallelLines]

This thread is all sorts of lulz

 

[bananafish94]

Guys, it's a troll. Just let it go. It's obviously somebody who's read SDN long enough to know what will rile people up, and then posted something to rile people up.

 

[altblue]

What do you mean "many?" Many people take COMLEX first (trial run for the real thing).

By the way, not studying OMM can result in a serious COMLEX score drop (which I actually asked a question about - look in my previous posts) and OMM is not just a small thing that you study - it includes classes which means more studying time (on top of boards time), and AS I SAID, this takes away from board study time [I am mystified as to why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...more info = more studying necessary (which means MDs have more studying time AND less material to know) = lower DO board scores].

Sorry, didn't see your "other than OMM" comment.

You know way wayyy too much about med school for your age. You'd be better served using your tendency to research educational institutions to figure out what colleges are right for you

 

[Ad2b]

Haha but have you ever met a 15 year old who wasn't an arrogant know-it-all? I think those are pretty typical qualities for a 15 year old, so it's pretty forgivable.

I don't know typical 15 year olds that come to a premed board and troll. Seems pretty stupid and might add, insecure? Parents aren't around? No friends? Nothing better to do?

What do I know about raising kids though, right?

 

[Ad2b]

Also, does anyone know how to delete posts to prevent situations like this from reoccurring (I want to delete my post that makes me age-identifiable

first, you have the hSDN which indicates you're in high school

second, you have to pay for the delete capability

third, maybe it's best you don't post that way you don't have to worry about deleting things on forums that aren't relevant to you (yet)?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Wow... I'm not sure how my post could have been so spectacularly misinterpreted but here goes.

FIRST of all, what I am saying is that no applicant can have a good idea of what medical field they want to pursue before third year, and going to a USMD allows a chance of becoming a doc in the applicant's desired field (this is a known fact supported by MULTIPLE figures, so go ahead and try to contest lol).

As a medical student that is almost done with his third year and who continues to be interested in the same specialty he thought he wanted to do when he was 16, I would wager I have a bit more insight than someone who might actually be 16, but this isn't relevant to the rest of the post. What is relevant is that if someone is going to a DO school, they should go with the understanding that the most competitive specialties (surgical subspecialties + derm + rad onc + IR) are essentially out of reach. If you would rather not be a doctor than be a doctor in not one of those specialties, then don't go to a DO school. Simple as that.

Essentially, what you are saying is that the applicant should just blindly go to DO school, and if they want to pursue derm or PRS, well too bad - because time was wasted [sorry, "spent"] on OMM they didn't have as much time to study and therefore got a lower step one score - But wait! they got a 600 on their COMLEX. As they eagerly submit this to their ACGME PD, they soon realize s/he doesn't care/know what that even means and takes into account their 220 step I. Now they have to go to the <50 - bed community program doing gsurg and hope to god that they match into a fellowship (chances ≈ 0). So I mean yeah, I guess what you are saying holds true, that one can become a licensed doc either way, but why restrict yourself to certain specialties right out of the gate (and force you to work harder/limit yourself because of OMM as well as going to a DO school)???

You are putting words in my mouth. Again, if you don't want to do neurosurgery or ENT or something, then DO is a perfectly sound option. Someone going to a DO school should not presume that they will be able to go into a highly competitive specialty.

Also, DO grads have [yes, slightly] lower match rates, so why be in that <1%?

This is not a significant difference and not a good argument against going to a DO school.

However, I do agree with the popular opinion that the OP should goto a DO school vs pharm if they want to be a doc, but they need to get their reasons straight first before making any major life decisions at this point (the road to being a doc is long & hard).

Yes

This is still not even remotely true. The match rates for DOs are lower in non-primary care specialties because (for the most part) DO schools really, really push primary care. It's not because it's "just harder for them to match". A DO and an MD with comparable/the same board scores have essentially equal shots at a vast majority of residency positions.

False. DO discrimination is real. Step 1 is not the great equalizer. A DO with a high step score will still be locked out of many competitive programs even in specialties like IM and Gen Surg. Sucks, but it's true.

I want to note, though, that there are indeed some residency programs that are harder to enter as a DO. These programs are certainly the minority.

Mid to high tier (for lack of a better word - this isn't really how residencies work but it's how premeds seem to understand them) academic programs, almost all programs in neurosurgery, ENT, orthopedic surgery, urology, ophthalmology, integrated plastics, integrated vascular, integrated CT, interventional radiology, radiation oncology, and dermatology.

TCOM literally just graduated someone who went on to a neurosurgery residency at Mayo.

The exception that proves the rule.

It's not a once-in-a-blue-moon phenomenon for DOs to match their (logical) top choice residencies.

Top choice has many meanings. Do you mean top choice as in your dream residency or the best program you applied to or the program you ranked #1? You can't rank a program if you don't interview there, so you have to specify what you mean by "top choice".

No - that's exactly what I'm saying...it is harder for DO students to have higher board scores because of the multiple hours a week spent studying OMM. Think about it - USMD with more time to study basic sciences vs a DO who needs to have OMM classes, labs, and devote valuable studying hours to [OMM]. Simply, this is a large factor as to why DOs have lower board scores.

The board scores don't account for most of the discrepancy.

Many, many ACGME programs discriminate DOs - and so does popular opinion... the average US citizen will not know what a DO is, and will almost certainly know what an MD is (in fact, there is an SDN thread describing this very phenomenon).

Popular opinion doesn't discriminate against DOs. Some residencies (and fellowships) have some bias towards USMD.

 

[Lannister]

I don't know typical 15 year olds that come to a premed board and troll. Seems pretty stupid and might add, insecure? Parents aren't around? No friends? Nothing better to do?

Tbf I didn't read most of his posts and am too lazy to do so, but I can totally see a 15 year old posting on SDN and coming off like a troll, when really they're just being a completely serious s***head 15 year old.

 

[clamsauce]

Wow some people taking this thread too serious.

Back when I was fifteen I was busy learning a craft and just discovered women exsist.


By craft I mean playing Starcraft and women I mean typing tits in google search and giving myself medial epicondylitis in my left forearm.

 

[Ad2b]

Wow some people taking this thread too serious. Back when I was fifteen I was busy learning a craft and just discovered women exsist. By craft I mean playing Starcraft

I'm so sorry that's such a @#$ty game

 

[clamsauce]

Omg u dissed muh starcraft. TRIGGERED

 

[Ad2b]

Omg u dissed muh starcraft. TRIGGERED

cha, scared me jeebies u play red too (if it's red, it's dead)

 

[clamsauce]

Go way I'm batin

 

[ParallelLines]

Awww poor baby wants nice and shiny MD letters after his name but doesn't have the grades to get in. My heart is broken. Someone hand this guy a sympathy acceptance

 

[holdthemayo]

Omg u dissed muh starcraft. TRIGGERED

 

[clamsauce]

Cant even hold my faps in now. Thanks bruh.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Wow... I'm not sure how my post could have been so spectacularly misinterpreted but here goes.

FIRST of all, what I am saying is that no applicant can have a good idea of what medical field they want to pursue before third year, and going to a USMD allows a chance of becoming a doc in the applicant's desired field (this is a known fact supported by MULTIPLE figures, so go ahead and try to contest lol).
Essentially, what you are saying is that the applicant should just blindly go to DO school, and if they want to pursue derm or PRS, well too bad - because time was wasted [sorry, "spent"] on OMM they didn't have as much time to study and therefore got a lower step one score - But wait! they got a 600 on their COMLEX. As they eagerly submit this to their ACGME PD, they soon realize s/he doesn't care/know what that even means and takes into account their 220 step I. Now they have to go to the <50 - bed community program doing gsurg and hope to god that they match into a fellowship (chances ≈ 0). So I mean yeah, I guess what you are saying holds true, that one can become a licensed doc either way, but why restrict yourself to certain specialties right out of the gate (and force you to work harder/limit yourself because of OMM as well as going to a DO school)???

Also, DO grads have [yes, slightly] lower match rates, so why be in that <1%?

However, I do agree with the popular opinion that the OP should goto a DO school vs pharm if they want to be a doc, but they need to get their reasons straight first before making any major life decisions at this point (the road to being a doc is long & hard).

It is very possible for an applicant to have a good idea of what specialty to choose before third year of med school. Especially with 100s of hours shadowing or many years of healthcare working experience.

There are more reasons than OMM one may choose the DO route.

Also reading match lists and looking at rates is futile. People are judged individually on their own merits. We can speak in generalities and say MD>DO but on an individual basis it doesn't matter. There are DOs in every specialty in medicine including derm, rad oncol, neuro, Ortho, etc. Was it harder for them to match in those specialities than for an MD? Maybe, maybe not. Too many factors to consider.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

Umm no... I'm not saying DOs are worse or whatever but the reality is that it IS harder to match as a DO. If you look at any specialty it is very clear. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned an orthopod DO and guess what - it was much harder for him to match than the MD one step above him on the match list. Just sayin


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No. DOs match at the same rates as MDs. Yes it is harder to get into the super competitive specialties, although remember that in these fields you are literally talking about 10ths of a percent difference because few medical students as a whole go into these fields.

Wow... I'm not sure how my post could have been so spectacularly misinterpreted but here goes.

FIRST of all, what I am saying is that no applicant can have a good idea of what medical field they want to pursue before third year, and going to a USMD allows a chance of becoming a doc in the applicant's desired field (this is a known fact supported by MULTIPLE figures, so go ahead and try to contest lol).
Essentially, what you are saying is that the applicant should just blindly go to DO school, and if they want to pursue derm or PRS, well too bad - because time was wasted [sorry, "spent"] on OMM they didn't have as much time to study and therefore got a lower step one score - But wait! they got a 600 on their COMLEX. As they eagerly submit this to their ACGME PD, they soon realize s/he doesn't care/know what that even means and takes into account their 220 step I. Now they have to go to the <50 - bed community program doing gsurg and hope to god that they match into a fellowship (chances ≈ 0). So I mean yeah, I guess what you are saying holds true, that one can become a licensed doc either way, but why restrict yourself to certain specialties right out of the gate (and force you to work harder/limit yourself because of OMM as well as going to a DO school)???

Also, DO grads have [yes, slightly] lower match rates, so why be in that <1%?

However, I do agree with the popular opinion that the OP should goto a DO school vs pharm if they want to be a doc, but they need to get their reasons straight first before making any major life decisions at this point (the road to being a doc is long & hard).

Quite frankly, you sound dumb. You have no idea what you are talking about.

No - that's exactly what I'm saying...it is harder for DO students to have higher board scores because of the multiple hours a week spent studying OMM.

No one spends multiple hours a week on OMM except the day before the exams.

Simply, this is a large factor as to why DOs have lower board scores.

No it's not. Not even close.

I don't care about TCOM - that's also n = 1. The reason you can't show overall rates is because they're worse.

Also, just tell me this - why do MD schools have higher MCAT/GPA/sGPA and are always aimed at as a first option. DO schools are [generally] looked at when MD is unattainable unless someone is in love with OMM (which is not awfully common).

Quoting Goro from his 1000s of WAMC responses, "500+ for DO, 505+ for MD." And this is an adcom at a DO school, so this advice is solid.

Explain .


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Yes DO schools have slightly lower entrance stats. I remind you many of the established schools have entrance stats at the level of low tier MD schools. I'm not sure what your point is.

but they have to waste time preparing for COMLEX [for AOA match

Again, you have no clue how any of this works. DOs need the COMLEX because that is the exam that allows them to be licensed and practice medicine. It has nothing to do with the AOA match. And generally students take COMLEX after the USMLE. You go all in on USMLE, and then cram OMM after that test is done.

However, you all did have the opinion of me possibly being an AAMC employee so that mean I wasn't completely dumb/un knowledgeable about match rates and st

Sorry if I am not impressed, this means nothing.

YES, I know...
However, it DOES take time to go through the green book (Savarese) when that time could be (better?) used for step studying.


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Not if Step is already taken.

Many people take COMLEX first (trial run for the real thing).

Just stop, no they don't.

If that's your defense mechanism when you know you're beat ok bye.


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I suggest you learn to know when you are dead wrong and in way over your head, it's a good skill to learn. Maybe you should get into college before you start telling medical students they are wrong.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but on an individual basis it doesn't matter.

It most definitely matters, don't think it doesn't. Having the MD makes life a lot easier.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

It most definitely matters, don't think it doesn't. Having the MD makes life a lot easier.

Maybe some people don't want an easy life and they choose DO for the challenge.

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[Ad2b]

This is where the ladies be at boyz... (Starcraft ) @holdthemayo @clamsauce

 

[clamsauce]

I've already spent my last round on kerrigan faps.

 

[Ad2b]

But the transmog!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Maybe some people don't want an easy life and they choose DO for the challenge.

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Then those people are very stupid

 

[Bacchus]

As a DO, I think this is a ridiculous thread. But, as an attending, I feel I need to help y'all out.

The picture was anonymized. It also removed identifying information. Whole comment removal were sop box comments which had nothing to do with myself.

I may be self biased, but I hardly think I'm second rate. I've been here about a year, but most patients who request to see me have heard something good from word on the street. My employer does not hide the fact I am a DO.

 

[Hkhan]

Ok, I'm dumb I get it... I guess I'm back to hSDN to talk to seniors about how medicine is 4 years after college and not within it - and weigh in on whether kids with NO medical experience/ mediocre grades should apply BSMD (or BSDO, no discrimination here lol).
Btw guys in case you didn't know the OP was almost definitely a troll trying to rile people up about a well - debated topic. Also, just so we're clear, I was being a bit trolly and I DO not believe DOs are less than MDs, just that DO school is easier to get into (which is I think is something we can all agree upon).
Also, I didn't know COMLEX-I wasn't used for AOA match - I just assumed it was, sorry abt that.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

Ok, I'm dumb I get it... I guess I'm back to hSDN to talk to seniors about how medicine is 4 years after college and not within it - and weigh in on whether kids with NO medical experience/ mediocre grades should apply BSMD (or BSDO, no discrimination here lol).
Btw guys in case you didn't know the OP was almost definitely a troll trying to rile people up about a well - debated topic. Also, just so we're clear, I was being a bit trolly and I DO not believe DOs are less than MDs, just that DO school is easier to get into (which is I think is something we can all agree upon).
Also, I didn't know COMLEX-I wasn't used for AOA match - I just assumed it was, sorry abt that.

Data actually shows that it's harder to get into DO than MD. Do your research first

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Can the mods just close this thread? There are literally like 1000s of these already on SDN. The same back-and-forth dialogue occurs every time.

No one can say what is a better route for an individual, except for them. Grow up and make your own decisions instead of turning to random people on the internet, many of whom happen to be extremely biased against DO, to make a decision for you.

If you know what you want for your career, and you know that being a DO will not stop you from accomplishing those goals, then go for it. If you know that being a DO will significantly hamper your chances for accomplishing your goals, go MD. If you care about going to a top-tier residency or are interested in a super competitive specialty, don't go DO. If you just want to be a doctor, go wherever you get in and wherever you feel most comfortable, if you have the chance to choose between schools. It's really not that complicated.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Data actually shows that it's harder to get into DO than MD. Do your research first

No it's not. Not even close.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Data actually shows that it's harder to get into DO than MD. Do your research first

Wat?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Wat?

I'm pretty sure he's just looking at the number of applicants per seats, but that doesn't account for any other admittance factor or the competitiveness of those applicants.

 

[Peach Newport]

Let's get one thing straight. DOs are not doctors. DOs are osteopaths. It's in their degree name for god's sake. We just let them play doctor because it makes them feel better about their MD rejections. We're actually really nice to them, for the poor second-rate losers they are. Let it not be said that that the medical institution isn't magnanimous.

We let them manage patient healthcare.

We let them independently practice medicine, prescribe drugs, and do surgery.

We pay them a full physician's salary and benefits.

We let them apply for "physician" positions at hospitals and universities, Hire them, and pay them accordingly.

We let them serve as department chairs.

We let them do the same residency training programs as MDs.

We protect them with the exact same laws, policies, and regulations as REAL doctors.

We even give them the exact same training and education!

Don't let this fool you, though. A REAL doctor has "MD" after his name, and don't you forget it. At the end of the day, an MD can look at the initials on their business card and know who's the REAL doctor.

 

[JustintheDoctor]

Let's get one thing straight. DOs are not doctors. DOs are osteopaths. It's in their degree name for gods sake. We just let them play doctor because it makes them feel better about their MD rejections. We're actually really nice to them, for poor second-rate losers they are. Let it not be said that that the medical institution isn't magnanimous.

We let them manage patient healthcare.

We let them independently practice medicine, prescribe drugs, and do surgery.

We pay them a full physician's salary and benefits.

We let them apply for "physician" positions are hospitals and universities, Hire them, and pay them accordingly.

We let them serve as department chairs.

We let them do the same residency programs as MDs.

We protect them with the exact same laws, policies, and regulations as REAL doctors.

We even give them the exact same training and education!

Don't let this fool you, though. A REAL doctor has "MD" after his name, and don't you forget it. At the end of the day, an MD can look at the initials on their business card and know who's the REAL doctor.

This is brilliant

 

[altblue]

Can the mods just close this thread? There are literally like 1000s of these already on SDN. The same back-and-forth dialogue occurs every time.

No one can say what is a better route for an individual, except for them. Grow up and make your own decisions instead of turning to random people on the internet, many of whom happen to be extremely biased against DO, to make a decision for you.

If you know what you want for your career, and you know that being a DO will not stop you from accomplishing those goals, then go for it. If you know that being a DO will significantly hamper your chances for accomplishing your goals, go MD. If you care about going to a top-tier residency or are interested in a super competitive specialty, don't go DO. If you just want to be a doctor, go wherever you get in and wherever you feel most comfortable, if you have the chance to choose between schools. It's really not that complicated.

I like the sentiment but I don't think OP has reached this level of sophistication in their thinking. It seems to just be an ego issue, which is a far more simple and basic concern than any of the reasoning you've outlined

 

[Lucca]

Had some good times, but I think this thread has run its course and the main points towards answering the OP have been given from multiple perspectives.