There are two students in my chem class who are in their thirties and back in school to fulfill their prereq's, and they are the biggest gunners/grade grubbers I know. They always are the first to arrive at class, try to act super put-together, and constantly ask the professor to change their grades (eg whining for full credit when they get the units all wrong). I think someone should put all the gunners in a separate class and have them battle it out american gladiator style with their three-ring binders and ti-89's.
hum...sounds like you dislike gunners rather than non-trads never mind...most non-trads are the opposite in my experience (but hey, I'm biased as I am one...)
aaww come on, I can say the same about these teeny-bopping, britney spears loving, just out of their teens premeds that have stepped into their first Gen Chem class thinking they're the kind of the world. PUH-LEASE. Do not generalize. In my opinion, most non-trads are more laid back and easy going because they have seen more of life and hardly think a "B" is as important than say....getting to home ON TIME so their child in daycare is not left alone. By the way, I am right smack in the middle between non-trad and trad. So I fit in neither category.
so you hate them because they are competitors in the medical admission field... and are *gasp* competitive?
This reminds me of a lady I knew who actually was a grand mother, a premed, and also a business woman. To make things worse, she was applying to medical school in the year I knew her, plus she was taking care of a relative's kid who had to be kept in day care because this lady was already doing so much. I was just a silly premed back then who didn't know much about life, but in retrospect, I really admire her for doing all this at the same time. Kudos to those who are doing this at a later age, and an even bigger kudos to those that are doing it with children. I for one, could not have done so much.
It's funny. When I read this it reminded me that when I was taking second semester general chemistry, there were two older, nontraditional students who drove me nuts. I mean I couldn't stand them. They were exactly the same. Constantly trying to get their grades changed, whining about how unfair a question was, etc. This was way back in the fall of 1992. Now here I am, in my thirties (barely), trying to get into medical school again, and I find myself sympathizing with the gunners in imperator's class. I think they just have a different perspective on classes and a greater feeling of urgency. I wonder if I would be like that now. I, like lola, took my prerequisites back in college. So, I guess I'll never know.
It's understandable that they might be a little anal about their grades; they threw away whatever other standing in their lives they'd been working towards their entire life and are taking a shot at medical school - they've sacrificed a lot, and they want to make sure they make every effort to ensure their sacrifice is not in vain.
I am a non-trad as well and I love the fact that the ones that the OP mentioned are trying to get every fraction of a point that they can. To the OP: you may not believe it, but you are fighting in a war. Admission to med school (at any age) is a series of battles that need to be won decisively in order to win the war. These non-trads may be trying to overcome an awful transcript from 10 years ago and they are doing whatever they have to in order to make themselves competitive applicants. Let's hope that in 10 years some 20 year old isn't complaining about you if you have to take a req over again (assuming the worst) and are trying to maximize what is probably your last chance to become a doctor.
I'll stick up with imperator on this one. Most of the non-trads I have come across in pre-med coursework have been whiny, b!tchy, guys (and gals) who take up time in the class with stupid questions, a ridiculous sense of entitlement, and the feeling that perhaps because they are little older than the average student they ought to be treated different/ better than everyone else. I hope others have had a better experience with this crowd than what I have but with my experiences so far I've got to agree with imperator. My experience with gubber students is similar too.
I hear you man. Reading this thread gave me the goosebumps. I remember a while ago when I took an OChem class and we had this one old lady (late 40s I guess) and man did she annoy the whole class. She would sit in the very front of the class and everytime the prof made a small error on the chalkboard, she would enthusiastically raise her hand and point it out to everyone even though the correction made no difference. And then, she would ask all these questions that should have been asked in section and thus holding up the entire class. I've always wanted to say to her...My god woman, it's only a 50 min lecture, stop taking up everyone's time! So if anyone wants to look smart by impressing the prof, please do it during his office hours not during lecture. Thanks.
From my own observation, I think that some non-trads who have been in the work force for a while may approach school the way they approach work- treating going to class as their "job" and the professor as the "boss". I go to a state school with a large post-bac program, and have had non-trads in all of my pre-req classes, so I have gotten to know quite a few students in their thirties and even forties planning to apply to med school. While they all have different motivations and pasts and therefore exhibit a wide range of behavior in the classroom, I have certainly noticed some that display the type of habits that imperator was commenting on. I too used to find this very annoying, until I made the connection between their behavior and that of people I have worked with who are always kissing up to the boss in an effort to get a raise or promotion. I think some non-trads try these same tactics (which are, despite their transparency, often effective in the workplace) when they are in a college setting as well. While showing up to work early and complimenting your boss on her new suit may be helpful to your career, professors usually aren't impressed by that sort of thing and it probably won't help your grade. Same goes for the whining attempts to change a grade- you can appeal a bad evaluation at work, but test grades are usually based on the number of questions you got right and aren't open to interepretation. However, you really can't hold it against people if they try doing what has worked for them in the past in a new setting. As was stated earlier, non-trads often have more to lose, and are just trying to perform well in college the only way they know how. I have also had some of the same non-trads in more than one class over time and have often noticed a reduction in these "gunner" type behaviors as they learn the game, so to speak- what works and what doesn't. They usually come to realize that it is more important to be prepared for the test than to be in class 15 minutes early and make a point of asking a "question" each lecture that is really just a thinly veiled attempt to show off that they've read ahead in the text. I hope I haven't offended anyone in writing this; again I am not talking about all non-trads, just the ones who exhibit aggravating gunneresque attitudes/behavior, and this is just my theory about why they may behave this way based on the similarity between brown-nosers in the workplace and in the classroom. I have known plenty of laid back non-trads, although in my experience most do seem to be a bit more high-strung when it comes to the whole process, which as pointed out earlier is probably because they have already often sacrificed a lot to be back in school. I think many also realize that because of their age they are at something of a disadvanatge in the process and feel they need to do "perfectly" now to make up for this. Anway, I think all this non-trad v. trad stuff is silly, the point is that you have different kinds of people from different backgrounds approaching doing the same thing in (surprise!) different ways. Sometimes the way people choose to do something can seem stupid to others, but you can't ascribe it to something as simple as the fact that they are a "traditional" or "non-traditional" (whatever those terms mean, anyway) applicant.
Yet another post that makes me wonder where all the love has gone on SDN. It used to be a positive forum, but now it is has so many people bitching about people who bitch, and whining about people who whine. Hmmm...maybe not all non-trads are alike..maybe not all trads are alike... And in defense of those who are non-trad...my class is predominantly non-trad and are very laid back, well-balanced people. Perhaps those two nontrads are just two stressed out premed students, which there seems to be tons of these days. I've met both non-trads and trads who were amazingly wonderful people, and I've met non-trads and trads who were anal, self-centered, and insecure. I am amazed at how much generalizing goes on in the SDN forums these days.
I think that you tend to get a couple of people like this in every class and sometimes they are non trads but other times they are just know it all regular students. I couldn't fit a 200 level micro class that was required for my minor into my schedule until I was a senior. I had already most all of the biochem and micro classes so this was a walk in the park for me but we had this totally annoying girl in our class that had done summer research (she calibrated pipettes all summer by her own admission) that just was enamored by her awesome research credentials. She spent 1/2 of every class going on about this d*mn research and the other half coming off like an idiot acting like she knew stuff that she did not. She constantly tried to point out things that she thought the professor was wrong about that in all truth, she just did not have the scientific knowledge to understand why that in this particular circumstance, it was indeed true. She insisted on racing to answer every question even when she didn't have a clue what she was talking about and then would argue with this PhD why her answer was correct. The unfortunate truth was that she did crappy in this class, as well as made the class unbearable for the other students, because she thought she knew everything and was not open to learning anything. I was a traditional student and I can say that at times the other trads got on my nerves. My philosophy is that you have to put in some effort to learn and if you refuse to do that then don't waste the other students and profs time. Miami is a big party school and we had people that came to class everyday whining about how bad they were doing, but they never opened a book and were hungover 95% of the time. I'm all for have fun, college should be fun but you have to take some responsibility for your own education. I have always gone out on the weekends and occasionally during the week if my schedule allowed but not on the night before a big exam. We actually had people hungover taking the MCAT. I mean, come on, I have serious worries about someone that can't control their behavior for one night in light of something as important as the MCAT. I don't think that most trad students can really understand the pressures on a non trad student. Their goals and priorities are much different and there is a great pressure to succeed for them because it is a last ditch effort for some, others have families that are sacrificing for them to have this shot, and they have many more responsibilities than most trad students.
The worst is when these gunner types ask 'questions' which are really just poorly veiled statements of their own knowledge: "Yes, um Professor, with regards to your discussion on the Kreb's cycle, I know from my previous role as a research physicist that in Austria there is currently work looking at reagents involved in the Calvin cycle (which we all know is the photosynthesis pathway) and their possible similarity to photon emissions in solar energy. What are your thoughts on that?" MUST...CONTROL......FIST..OF.......DEATH........
Hey, I'm an "oldie" but still as shy in the classroom as out of it so I would never speak during lecture. I can't speak for other people but I know for myself if I had a question I tried my damndest to figure it out for myself, spend hours and hours (and hours) in the library or at my desk at home working on a problem before I would actually ask the professor. That's why I got tutors sometimes, too. I think both oldies and traditional students can be irritating but what bugs me most is when people ask questions without having done the hard work on their own first. Dang, that's what we're supposed to be learning how to do, work on our own. I probably did bug my younger student peers, but I am a million years older and used to working really hard by myself and when I came into lab with all my supplemental texts my fellow lab-mates would groan ... maybe too, because I wouldn't give them all the answers for nothin'. And alot of people have asked ... I am hardworking, but I try and only compete with myself.
This is as opposed to the droves of undergrads who whine and bitch about their grades... Or maybe it's just that UCLA has the most babied students in the world. In my 6+ years of TAing; usually the non-trads were more laid back... more so than the ones who (1) grade grub (a vast majority were TRADITIONAL undergrads and (2) those who cheated (again, TRADITIONAL PREMED UNDERGRADS)... I think that there are always a few non-trads that thing that they are superior to lowly normal pre-meds... but then again... don't normal, typical, pre-med, gunners feel superior to the vast majority of their classmates! C
You're right, souljah! We shouldn't use stress as an excuse to be nasty to each other. Different strokes for different folks!
Okay then...can we at least agree that we hate the "sitting in the front row, hogging all the classtime, groveling for the high score, whining, bitching POS's" if we ignore whether they are nontrad or trad? Those jerks. (god...I think I was one of those people...)
don't worry guys... everyone hates the annoying premeds, it's not like people can't see through their bull****. more often than not, professors can tell who's a ******* and who's sincere. that's what LOR's are for. for the professors who can't tell, well, they're dumb and shouldn't be trusted with your LOR anyway. haha
You have just summed up the majority of the pre-med students that I have ever know. Unfortunately, I think that the medical school admissions process selects for these types; old and young alike.
Yeah, I always find the psycho premed trads more annoying than anyone else almost. They do the grade grub thing and size up "competition." (in quotes because everyone else doesn't think of class as competition around here) It's obnoxious really, and lots of them tend to ask really stupid questions and do the classtime hogging thing as someone mentioned. (note that the key modifier here is "psycho" )...
at my school, and a lot of others from what I've heard, students tend to segregate into groups of trads (straight out of college or one year off), those in-between (reapplicants and/or those who took 2-4 years off), and non-trads who are usually married, engaged, or in serious relationships. Although there can be friendly interactions between the different groups at times, I wish there weren't such segregation. People also tend to segregate by race, although it's not nearly as bad as what I've heard about at other schools (and seen at one other school on the East Coast which will remain nameless). It's a shame that people can't be more open-minded. I also notice that people tend to spend time ONLY with their significant others and make no effort to make friends outside their relationship, maybe occasionally for study groups but not even there. Damn shame that we med students can't be more open-minded. Unfortunately, I think Tufts is actually one of the better schools on this front (and for people that are incredibly wound-up and defensive, NO I don't think that my school is equivalent to Harvard or UCSF and this is just my opinion).
I took bio in the summer, and there were a few non-trad. students. In addition, there was one guy who was a high-school bio teacher who wanted to take the quarter on genetics in order to be updated on new information. Talk about messing up the curve! (and no he didn't audit). Luckily he didn't speak up much in class, and when he did he asked good questions. Oh btw, don't you just hate those people who get 98/100 on orgo exams, especially when the average is a 60?
just an observation: interesting how when non-trads are trying for good grades and to make a good impression on the profs, people rush to defend them by pointing out how much more they have at stake. however, when trads exhibit similar behavior, they are described as "psycho." as a trad, i'll be the first to admit that i'm a little on the high strung side when it comes to my schoolwork, though i don't think anyone would have ever considered labelling me as "psycho." I do think my attitide is because i honestly do feel that i have a lot at stake at this point in my life.i don't do much kissing up, i definitely don't cheat and i rarely brought my stress to my professors unless i truly was doing poorly, but i still always took my assignments very seriously. i am more than willing to acknowledge that in a few years i'm going to laugh at how seriously i took every grade when i was younger, but for the time being, getting into medical school (and most things associated with it) is one of my tippy-top priorities since i don't have kids, serious money issues, health problems, serious family issues, etc. at the moment to occupy my attention. as a student who was in several classes with post-bacs, i definitely did this: several times a class despite my own attitude towards education, but i've always respected the dedication it takes to come back to school after leaving it for a while (so....those just graduated from college people get a little less respect in this sense) because, invariably, there are issues to contend with once you're out of school for an extended period of time. in summation to my rather long post, i guess i want to say that, for our "limited" perspective (well, mine is limited...i know some trads with some extensive life experience even if they're only 21), getting into med school and becoming a doctor is just as important to (some of) us as is it to (most of) the non-trads out there.
All i got to say on this useless topic is damn vixen is a hottie which med school are you going to be going to? BTW i wish i was a little more whiny this whole process would be a lot easier if my gpa was even .1 higher than it is.
I'm an in-betweener (proudly making that word up, thank you very much), and I've seen this type of annoying behavior by both trads and non-trads. Gunners and other annoying people come in all ages, shapes, and sizes, as do helpful and nice pre-meds. Souljah1 and Tweetie were right (as they usually are)-- don't generalize, especially when you don't know the person's situation. Yes it's highly annoying when people ask questions that are irrelevant and/or just showing off how much they know. But you know what? There are going to be people like that in every aspect of your life in med school and beyond. Get over it-- you have better uses for your energy. Focus on YOUR education and YOUR application. And if you don't like these people's behavior, just ignore it (it takes practice, but you can do it), and do your best to be supportive of your fellow classmates and not mirror their behavior. Play nice, kids. You're going to have to be around and work with people that you find annoying for your entire life. Learn how to work with people now and save yourself some headache in the future.
I'm a bald non-trad. Why do you hate me? Does the glare off the top of my head blind you during lecture?
I love both non-trads and trads, especially the non-trads since I am one. As a TA for Orgo (a weed out class at UC-Irvine), I witnessed a lot of cheating among the trads. Even caught one girl stuff a cheat sheet down her blouse. Funny thing was that she couldn't even transfer the answers from the sheet to the test correctly! Another student of mine propositioned me after she found out that she was getting a 'D' in the class. As for the nontrads, they were on top of their game. Like SweetTea said, we all need to get along even if that means putting on a tactful fake smile. We will undoubtedly come across annoying patients also, so let's start practicing now.
I have a question? how old do you have to be to be considered no-trad? seriously... I'm interested....
