I hate research! Can I volunteer (in medical school)?

[sweetnectar]

So I know that people unanimously say that competitive residencies require research. However, I'm not a big fan of pushing pipettes and wearing funky goggles all day 👎. I'm much more interested in volunteering time with people, especially internationally. Are volunteering and research regarded the same (as in undergrad), or if one is looking towards a competitive residency is research the only way to go? Would the volunteering have to be really stellar (i.e. create a vaccination program for a whole village) to be considered competitive? Lastly, how competitive does clinical research fair compared to regular research?
Thanks in advance for the help!

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[JacobSilge]

So I know that people unanimously say that competitive residencies require research. However, I'm not a big fan of pushing pipettes and wearing funky goggles all day 👎. I'm much more interested in volunteering time with people, especially internationally. Are volunteering and research regarded the same (as in undergrad), or if one is looking towards a competitive residency is research the only way to go? Would the volunteering have to be really stellar (i.e. create a vaccination program for a whole village) to be considered competitive? Lastly, how competitive does clinical research fair compared to regular research?
Thanks in advance for the help!

Short answer is no. However, clinical research/epi/global health/health systems/qi type research are all regarded favorably and don't require goggles or pipettes.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Which competitive field?

 

[sweetnectar]

Which competitive field?

I'm starting med school in August, so I still am not sure which field I would want to do.

Short answer is no. However, clinical research/epi/global health/health systems/qi type research are all regarded favorably and don't require goggles or pipettes.

I'm familiar with what clinical research entails, but epi/health systems/qi research i am unfamiliar with. what typically does this entail?

 

[Perrotfish]

So I know that people unanimously say that competitive residencies require research. However, I'm not a big fan of pushing pipettes and wearing funky goggles all day 👎. I'm much more interested in volunteering time with people, especially internationally. Are volunteering and research regarded the same (as in undergrad), or if one is looking towards a competitive residency is research the only way to go? Would the volunteering have to be really stellar (i.e. create a vaccination program for a whole village) to be considered competitive? Lastly, how competitive does clinical research fair compared to regular research?
Thanks in advance for the help!

No, volunteering is not looked at the same as research for residencies. Also, medical student research almost never involves a lab. When medical students say they're doing "research" they mean

1) Case studies: When they say 'research' all they really mean is a publication. A case study is just a write up of an interesting patient in a scientific journal.

2) Retrospective Chart Reviews: The next most common type of published study, and the easiest kind of researc, involves looking over old patient charts to try and find/publish trends.

3) Anatomy research: For future surgeons. Take 20 corpes, and disect to prove something about the way some artery runs in the body.

4) Survey studies: Are patients satisfied? How well is your patient education getting across? Does the new mood lighting affect how they rate their pain on the pain scale? You hand out simple, 5 question surveys and then publish the results.

I'm sure there are more, but I think you get the idea. Pipette free research, fairly low time investmet, the kind of research that you are likely to do as an actual practicing physician.

 

[courtnes]

No, volunteering is not looked at the same as research for residencies. Also, medical student research almost never involves a lab. When medical students say they're doing "research" they mean

1) Case studies: When they say 'research' all they really mean is a publication. A case study is just a write up of an interesting patient in a scientific journal.

2) Retrospective Chart Reviews: The next most common type of published study, and the easiest kind of researc, involves looking over old patient charts to try and find/publish trends.

3) Anatomy research: For future surgeons. Take 20 corpes, and disect to prove something about the way some artery runs in the body.

4) Survey studies: Are patients satisfied? How well is your patient education getting across? Does the new mood lighting affect how they rate their pain on the pain scale? You hand out simple, 5 question surveys and then publish the results.

I'm sure there are more, but I think you get the idea. Pipette free research, fairly low time investmet, the kind of research that you are likely to do as an actual practicing physician.

Thanks for this post, Perrotfish! I wasn't aware med students were involved in anatomy research like that, it'd be a nice change from the retrospective and survey stuff.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Each field is different in regards to research. Even geography changes how important research can be.

If you aren't sure which field you plan to enter and where you want to train, I would highly advise doing research. You don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

So I know that people unanimously say that competitive residencies require research. However, I'm not a big fan of pushing pipettes and wearing funky goggles all day 👎. I'm much more interested in volunteering time with people, especially internationally. Are volunteering and research regarded the same (as in undergrad), or if one is looking towards a competitive residency is research the only way to go? Would the volunteering have to be really stellar (i.e. create a vaccination program for a whole village) to be considered competitive? Lastly, how competitive does clinical research fair compared to regular research?
Thanks in advance for the help!

I chose basic science because it afforded a great deal of liberty, freedom, and choice in which direction I wanted to take the research.

For people who don't like bench research (pipetting, caring for animals), the alternative is chart pulling. Some department will want you to build a database by going through thousands of old charts, building an excel spreadsheet on age, complications, treatment, whatever. You build the database, probably write the paper, and get your name on the paper... last. But its a GOOD way to get to know a department. Forming connections that get you what you want rather than the actual production of research (which it sounds like you aren't really interested in).

On the flip side, going to Haiti for disaster relief (even if you're an incompetent monkey who gets in the way and eats much needed food) is apparently excellent "clinical time" if you want to do IM. Not sure what impact it has on other fields, though... So don't right off doing volunteer or some cool health-related mission stuff. It can be helpful. I emphasize CAN. Not is.

 

[shadowfox87]

I am the opposite. I actually find research pretty awesome as you get to learn cutting edge stuff and experiment. Anyone can do volunteering, but only a few people can do research and publish papers. The way you're describing it, yea it does seem boring. It maybe due to different research positions or just perspective. Find a research position that you like, although, any research position is going to look good for residencies.

 

[osumc2014]

No, volunteering is not looked at the same as research for residencies. Also, medical student research almost never involves a lab. When medical students say they're doing "research" they mean

1) Case studies: When they say 'research' all they really mean is a publication. A case study is just a write up of an interesting patient in a scientific journal.

2) Retrospective Chart Reviews: The next most common type of published study, and the easiest kind of researc, involves looking over old patient charts to try and find/publish trends.

3) Anatomy research: For future surgeons. Take 20 corpes, and disect to prove something about the way some artery runs in the body.

4) Survey studies: Are patients satisfied? How well is your patient education getting across? Does the new mood lighting affect how they rate their pain on the pain scale? You hand out simple, 5 question surveys and then publish the results.

I'm sure there are more, but I think you get the idea. Pipette free research, fairly low time investmet, the kind of research that you are likely to do as an actual practicing physician.

But there are plenty of students that are doing basic science research as well (albeit the easier to get published projects)

 

[Hemichordate]

Do clinical research papers take less time for journals to review than basic science papers?

 

[Perrotfish]

But there are plenty of students that are doing basic science research as well (albeit the easier to get published projects)

You know, I know a lot of people who signed up for basic sciences research, especially in between MS1 ans MS2, but I don't personally know anyone who translated that research into an authorship. I'm working with a pretty small n, of course, but it seems a like this kind of resesarch might be low yield.

 

[fadingin]

For what it is worth I just finished up my first year of school and I am doing neuro/behavioral psychiatry research and getting a lot of useful information out of it. Not all research is benchwork. Mine is basically a self directed secondary analysis that, with the help of my mentor, will be included in the final paper - in addition, I get to help screen participants, go on rounds, help out with the other ongoing study, and am also working with the research team to pilot two other studies.

Keep your options open, because there are plenty of opportunities sans lab gear.

 

[CatFactorial]

Basic research takes the cake.

Volunteering and other feelgoodery are good to do for their own sake, but are otherwise too easy to cultivate much of a CV.

 

[premed101]

Do clinical research papers take less time for journals to review than basic science papers?

I would be interested in hearing the answer to this as well.

Also, if anyone has any advice on "walking into a good situation" that would help identify a high yield (least time and greatest worth on CV) project, I think we would all be very grateful. 😀

 

[obgyny]

For residency, do they favor any kind of research? For example, would they be more impressed with basic research than case study reports? Or is it all about the amount of publications you produce?

I'm considering going back to my old research lab (basic science) to do research during the summer between M1 and M2 (my old research lab is at the same university I'm going to medical school). I like the research and I'm already trained in all the procedures, so I could get a lot of experiments done in a summer. But I'd also like to try clinical research out of curiosity.

Any advice?

 

[Alvarez13]

You know, I know a lot of people who signed up for basic sciences research, especially in between MS1 ans MS2, but I don't personally know anyone who translated that research into an authorship. I'm working with a pretty small n, of course, but it seems a like this kind of resesarch might be low yield.

I don't think many people understand how hard it is to contribute something novel to the field of medicine through bench research. Anatomy and physiology probably aren't going to give you some major insight into a topic that hasn't already been looked at. Institutions that have spent years in the field have trouble making the journal cut. Unless you have a unqiure undergrad experience that gives you a leg up, the best you can hope for is to input data into excel and clean some test tubes. Not how I'm going to spend my last summer.

I think there's a lot to be said about case reports. You could definitely get yourself in the literature and probably get a lot of good clinical experience/dept connections at the same time.

 

[Isoprop]

This thread has cleared up a lot of misconceptions about research for me. Thanks. 👍

 

[ArcGurren]

I don't think many people understand how hard it is to contribute something novel to the field of medicine through bench research. Anatomy and physiology probably aren't going to give you some major insight into a topic that hasn't already been looked at. Institutions that have spent years in the field have trouble making the journal cut. Unless you have a unqiure undergrad experience that gives you a leg up, the best you can hope for is to input data into excel and clean some test tubes. Not how I'm going to spend my last summer.

I think there's a lot to be said about case reports. You could definitely get yourself in the literature and probably get a lot of good clinical experience/dept connections at the same time.

I spent several months doing exactly this at a gov't lab, and what felt like pointlessly running gels. Near the end when I acquired about authorship, they were like "sorry, this research has been going on for years, the stuff we're gonna publish with what you've been involved with will probably take another 5-6 years to get anything good out, so the likelihood is you're not even going to make it to 10th author on this paper IF it gets published." Needless to say, I'm never ever going back to basic sciences research and I haven't even bothered to keep in contact with that lab. Plus the people I worked with... left a lot to be desired. There is some truth IMO to what they say about the anti-social nature of being a lab-bench ridden PhD.

On the other hand, I worked on a clinical research project for 2 months over one of my undergrad summers BEFORE entering that stupid lab ("cutting edge research" my ***) and got a paper published out of it as 3rd author. Most of what I did was manipulate data, do statistical regressions, and write an abstract which got published 2 years down the line. I'll take this over the crapfest of basic sciences research any time of the day (not to offend people who like it... just giving my opinion).

OP - you'll be surprised at how much more interesting/fulfilling you might find clinical research. Plus it's not a massive time commitment depending on how fast you read or analyze data. For my paper it took me a while mostly because I was sifting through literally thousands of patient data points, but most projects aren't even that big numbers-wise.

 

[Hemichordate]

I spent several months doing exactly this at a gov't lab, and what felt like pointlessly running gels. Near the end when I acquired about authorship, they were like "sorry, this research has been going on for years, the stuff we're gonna publish with what you've been involved with will probably take another 5-6 years to get anything good out, so the likelihood is you're not even going to make it to 10th author on this paper IF it gets published." Needless to say, I'm never ever going back to basic sciences research and I haven't even bothered to keep in contact with that lab. Plus the people I worked with... left a lot to be desired. There is some truth IMO to what they say about the anti-social nature of being a lab-bench ridden PhD.

On the other hand, I worked on a clinical research project for 2 months over one of my undergrad summers BEFORE entering that stupid lab ("cutting edge research" my ***) and got a paper published out of it as 3rd author. Most of what I did was manipulate data, do statistical regressions, and write an abstract which got published 2 years down the line. I'll take this over the crapfest of basic sciences research any time of the day (not to offend people who like it... just giving my opinion).

OP - you'll be surprised at how much more interesting/fulfilling you might find clinical research. Plus it's not a massive time commitment depending on how fast you read or analyze data. For my paper it took me a while mostly because I was sifting through literally thousands of patient data points, but most projects aren't even that big numbers-wise.

It took your abstract 2 years to get reviewed/published?

 

[ArcGurren]

It took your abstract 2 years to get reviewed/published?

No we collected a lot more data from other resources. I only collected from within the institution where I was working... we also got stuff from our state dept, etc to add to the data. It would have been a faster pub but it was more of a side project for my PI and the affiliated docs so we delayed publication as well a couple times.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

You know, I know a lot of people who signed up for basic sciences research, especially in between MS1 ans MS2, but I don't personally know anyone who translated that research into an authorship. I'm working with a pretty small n, of course, but it seems a like this kind of resesarch might be low yield.

I first authored three papers at mid level journals, won an award (and some cash) for my research contribution, poster presented like it was my job (aka free travel to some hot cities around the country), and know more about the kidney than most people forget.

My N of 1 is pretty small, but this **** was awesome. Granted I put in 60-80 a week in my MS1 summer and 10-20 a week through MS2, but it totally paid off.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

I spent several months doing exactly this at a gov't lab, and what felt like pointlessly running gels. Near the end when I acquired about authorship, they were like "sorry, this research has been going on for years, the stuff we're gonna publish with what you've been involved with will probably take another 5-6 years to get anything good out, so the likelihood is you're not even going to make it to 10th author on this paper IF it gets published." Needless to say, I'm never ever going back to basic sciences research and I haven't even bothered to keep in contact with that lab. Plus the people I worked with... left a lot to be desired. There is some truth IMO to what they say about the anti-social nature of being a lab-bench ridden PhD.

This is why you need to be upfront with your desires. "Im coming into your lab to do a summer's worth of research. I'm not going to do more than that, and I want a paper. I'll put in hours of hard work, for a small stint. I might not even get paid for it. That's ok. As long as I get a paper. If that's not possible at this lab, then I should go look somewhere else." They probably would have told you that their lab is for experience, and not for publishing.

Or even better, if you've got a dean or research coordinator who can get people set up with the right gig, talk to them first. Experiences like this can bite you, especially if you aren't clear on your expectations AND their expectations up front.

 

[justdoit31]

OP- I'm not a fan of lab stuff either. I did a clinical chart review study last summer in the field I want to go into. The nice thing about it was that it hasn't been a year and I already have presented it at a national meeting (got an award for it), the abstract is being published as part of the award, and a full article is in the works (will finish it after I take step).

I got lucky and the physicians who approached me about the project told me from the start they wanted it published and were very flexible with my time (I spent as much time in the clinic with them as I did pulling charts). They also surprised me with 1st authorship on it.

If you want to do something competitive research is a big factor so try to find something that you can live with- I spent a total of 10 hours a week for my 7 week summer on the project and then a few days over the course of the year running statistics or editing stuff so it wasn't too time consuming but looks good on the resume.

 

[Hemichordate]

For those of you who did statistics instead of data analysis by other means (i.e. coding responses, analyzing charts), did you know/study statistics before you joined the project, or did you learn while you worked on it?

 

[sweetnectar]

For those of you who did statistics instead of data analysis by other means (i.e. coding responses, analyzing charts), did you know/study statistics before you joined the project, or did you learn while you worked on it?

Much thanks to everyone for the informative responses! This has definitely realigned my perspective towards research. I'm also curious to how you guys were able to qualify for the research. I mean, I can make a pie chart out of excel, but that maybe as far as I go.

Thanks again to everyone for the help. Do most people do research during the summer of 1st year? Is it not easy to do it otherwise??

 

[PTPoeny]

You know, I know a lot of people who signed up for basic sciences research, especially in between MS1 ans MS2, but I don't personally know anyone who translated that research into an authorship. I'm working with a pretty small n, of course, but it seems a like this kind of resesarch might be low yield.

I'm an MD/PhD student, but the lab that I did my thesis research in had medical students every single summer that I was there and every single one of them got published. That was the point of them being in our lab. My advisor always has them work with people who were finishing up papers or revising papers because it is so handy to have an extra person at that time that can do all the little simple experiments that flesh out your paper and make it look better, but the person who did most of the experiments is the one that needs to be writing and redoing all the figure to the standards of the journal and stuff like that.

 

[CWWinning]

I know many medical students who say they have published research, but when you look at the actual pub expecting to find they were first/second author and wrote the manuscript,etc., it turns out they are near the bottom of the authorship list (like 4th or beyond).

I know everybody agrees that any authorship regardless of position is better than none, but any idea how Program Directors value a low-authorship publication where it seems you were at best only peripherally involved and at worst gifted an authorship position by a generous principal investigator?

 

[Kalyx]

For those of you who mentioned that you did some statistical analyses for clinical research, could you specify what you did? Did you learn SPSS/Stata/SAS and do things like logistic or linear regressions? Or are we talking about very basic descriptive analyses in Excel? I'm just curious to know what people are doing/learned to do.


~Kalyx

 

[CatFactorial]

I know many medical students who say they have published research, but when you look at the actual pub expecting to find they were first/second author and wrote the manuscript,etc., it turns out they are near the bottom of the authorship list (like 4th or beyond).

I know everybody agrees that any authorship regardless of position is better than none, but any idea how Program Directors value a low-authorship publication where it seems you were at best only peripherally involved and at worst gifted an authorship position by a generous principal investigator?

Middle authorship is still authorship.

That program directors would think that is nonsensical. But that's also why people interested in research should actually put in the requisite work for a first authorship.

Edit
Not that one HAS to go 1st authorship or bust.

 

[obgyny]

For residency, do they favor any kind of research? For example, would they be more impressed with basic research than case study reports? Or is it all about the amount of publications you produce?

I'm considering going back to my old research lab (basic science) to do research during the summer between M1 and M2 (my old research lab is at the same university I'm going to medical school). I like the research and I'm already trained in all the procedures, so I could get a lot of experiments done in a summer. But I'd also like to try clinical research out of curiosity.

Any advice?

bump 🙂. anyone?

 

[justdoit31]

For those of you who did statistics instead of data analysis by other means (i.e. coding responses, analyzing charts), did you know/study statistics before you joined the project, or did you learn while you worked on it?

I had a semester of Biostats in college (by a very good medical epidemologist who had done work with the CDC) and the bare bones from medical school. I did the majority of the stats by myself but one of the physician I researched with was very good at statistics (math degree before med school) so if it was something more detailed than what I could do she would help me and teach me the concepts too.

 

[TOcho118]

Slight bump.

So on another note, I just got the opportunity to be involved in some research at a well known optho institute. It will be sifting through charts, following docs on clinic, and even some OR time. The downside, however, is that there are probably 15 or so students working on this project and the possibility of getting any authorship credit is slim to none. Also, this involves around 30 hrs per week. Is this worth it during summer before MS1? Will residencies down the line care at all about research I did if it did not lead to publication?

 

[CWWinning]

Slight bump.

So on another note, I just got the opportunity to be involved in some research at a well known optho institute. It will be sifting through charts, following docs on clinic, and even some OR time. The downside, however, is that there are probably 15 or so students working on this project and the possibility of getting any authorship credit is slim to none. Also, this involves around 30 hrs per week. Is this worth it during summer before MS1? Will residencies down the line care at all about research I did if it did not lead to publication?

If any of the other 15 students are already medical students and obviously know more and probably will have a hand in writing the manuscript, an MS0 shouldn't expect authorship, an acknowledgement for data collection, ok.

And you're going to be surprised by how much "research" does not lead to publication.

 

[TOcho118]

If any of the other 15 students are already medical students and obviously know more and probably will have a hand in writing the manuscript, an MS0 shouldn't expect authorship, an acknowledgement for data collection, ok.

And you're going to be surprised by how much "research" does not lead to publication.

Only a couple are current med students. Most are either MS-0 and one or two are undergrad. Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked whether or not residencies down the line will care about research if it did not get published. I am already aware of the fact that I will most likely not get authorship, ok.

 

[CWWinning]

Only a couple are current med students. Most are either MS-0 and one or two are undergrad. Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked whether or not residencies down the line will care about research if it did not get published. I am already aware of the fact that I will most likely not get authorship, ok.

I see what you did there. oO

Yes, any research experience in my opinion is valuable and you'll probably learn a lot and convey that to residency programs in the future. The vast majority of medical students I know are not and will not be published. Don't undervalue the worth of enjoying the summer and entering MS1 with a rested body and mind.

 

[Jolie South]

You know, I know a lot of people who signed up for basic sciences research, especially in between MS1 ans MS2, but I don't personally know anyone who translated that research into an authorship. I'm working with a pretty small n, of course, but it seems a like this kind of resesarch might be low yield.

I think it really depends on the project. If you have a good PI, that's aware of what can be accomplished in a short amount of time, you can do a small part of a bigger project and actually complete something.

I did this for two months this spring. My name is going on the paper when it gets submitted this summer.

FWIW, I'm now working on two chart reviews and words cannot express how much it blows to read charts all day for a month and a half.

 

[ArcGurren]

This is why you need to be upfront with your desires. "Im coming into your lab to do a summer's worth of research. I'm not going to do more than that, and I want a paper. I'll put in hours of hard work, for a small stint. I might not even get paid for it. That's ok. As long as I get a paper. If that's not possible at this lab, then I should go look somewhere else." They probably would have told you that their lab is for experience, and not for publishing.

Or even better, if you've got a dean or research coordinator who can get people set up with the right gig, talk to them first. Experiences like this can bite you, especially if you aren't clear on your expectations AND their expectations up front.

Fair enough, but at the time I wasn't really looking for publications anyway... more so experience.

All that aside the working environment was horrendous. They were nice enough when interviewing me to see if I wanted to work there as an intern but come time for the actual work, they were total douches and had a complete lack of courtesy. I would not have minded had the lab staff been generally more helpful and friendly.

I'm trying to get a research position now (which is irritating as I don't even have a step 1 grade back to show to them).

 

[Hemichordate]

I think it really depends on the project. If you have a good PI, that's aware of what can be accomplished in a short amount of time, you can do a small part of a bigger project and actually complete something.

I did this for two months this spring. My name is going on the paper when it gets submitted this summer.

FWIW, I'm now working on two chart reviews and words cannot express how much it blows to read charts all day for a month and a half.

Why does it blow so much? Is it that boring? I would think at least it's fairly relaxing, and it sure beats a lab job.

 

[Jolie South]

Why does it blow so much? Is it that boring? I would think at least it's fairly relaxing, and it sure beats a lab job.

Yea, stationing myself in medical records, walking back and forth to the chart rack, deciphering illegible handwriting, and typing in excel spreadsheets is awesome. My alphabetization skills are top notch now.

I much prefer lab work. There's at least a procedure and daily results that provide some degree of satisfaction.

 

[obgyny]

For residency, do they favor any kind of research? For example, would they be more impressed with basic research than case study reports? Or is it all about the amount of publications you produce?

I'm considering going back to my old research lab (basic science) to do research during the summer between M1 and M2 (my old research lab is at the same university I'm going to medical school). I like the research and I'm already trained in all the procedures, so I could get a lot of experiments done in a summer. But I'd also like to try clinical research out of curiosity.

Any advice?

Sorry to bump this again, but does anyone have any thoughts on the topic?

 

[ArcGurren]

Yea, stationing myself in medical records, walking back and forth to the chart rack, deciphering illegible handwriting, and typing in excel spreadsheets is awesome. My alphabetization skills are top notch now.

I much prefer lab work. There's at least a procedure and daily results that provide some degree of satisfaction.

Satisfaction? It takes like 10 years to get a reasonably good basic sciences lab paper published. I would die of boredom

 

[Jolie South]

Satisfaction? It takes like 10 years to get a reasonably good basic sciences lab paper published. I would die of boredom

10 years? If that was true, the PhD students I know would never graduate.

And at least with basic sciences work, you know whether what you're doing is going anywhere while you're doing it (i.e. this PCR was crap, this transfection assay worked, I'm seeing expression on immunohistochemistry). I've been doing this chart review mindlessly for weeks and have no idea if any of the data will mean anything. Meanwhile, my eyes are bleeding from reading charts day in and day out.

 

[ArcGurren]

10 years? If that was true, the PhD students I know would never graduate.

And at least with basic sciences work, you know whether what you're doing is going anywhere while you're doing it (i.e. this PCR was crap, this transfection assay worked, I'm seeing expression on immunohistochemistry). I've been doing this chart review mindlessly for weeks and have no idea if any of the data will mean anything. Meanwhile, my eyes are bleeding from reading charts day in and day out.

Well PhD curriculum is pretty variable... I do know people who've taken ten years to complete their thesis.

Either way, chart review at least for me expresses results which could potentially be useful. At the labs I've worked at the basic fact was that it would take 20-30 years for any actionable use of the research being done there to have any real usefulness.