How do I get out? I'm late 40's. I have a Masters. I went into this career fairly late in life and it just never took off for me. The state that I lived in most of my life was so saturated with school psychs that I relocated to another state and that hasn't worked out either. The problem is that I just don't like what i'm doing. On each position that I've held, once the initial glow of garnering a new job with regular decent pay has worn off, I find myself dreading getting up and going to work. I hate the school setting. I hate sitting through meetings, I hate working with teams. I hate giving oral reports. Most of all, I hate not being my own boss and being susceptible to being fired just because a principal or director doesn't like me or because I have strong opinions. It's often not about the kids, but rather about what's best for the crummy school district. Also, the districts cram the school psychs onto any crummy little space for an office that they can find most times. My last job, I was in a closet and they had cut a window out for the door. I want out. The money is good now, but what good will that do me since I cannot keep a job due to "personality differences" or all the other BS in the schools?? A colleague told me to see what additional classes I would need to take to be licensed as a professional counselor or a marriage and family therapist without actually having to get another degree. I'm going to see if I can do that at this point. I actually knew i would like to be a therapist and work with adults instead of kids when I was going through my fieldwork. I should have dropped school psychology like a rock many years ago. Any thoughts or advice?
I Hate School Psychology
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I don't know what the question is here exactly, but if this is a common theme in your vocational life, I would not be so dismissive of it. Sounds like this may be worthy of reflection.
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I'm not happy being in a school atmosphere and working with teams of people. I am happiest working by and for myself. I don't want any bosses or supervisors. I hate the svhool setting. I was lured into this field by the " great teacher schedule".
The question is, would you stay in the career that made you the happiest? Or the one that paid you the most money? I am not happy with school psychology.
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You hate the school setting, but you chose to pursue a school psychologist degree? Did you come to this realization before or after going to grad school?
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Is there really no path for someone with a school psych degree to work independently? I have very limited knowledge of the field as I ruled it out almost immediately because I don't like kids, but I'm surprised there aren't consultant roles or private practice options. Or are there and the OPs area just isn't the best location for them?
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There are independent practice positions, and other locations, like juvenile detention facilities and the like, but they are the minority of positions available. Not wanting to work in schools just takes a huge number of potential jobs off the table.
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This really doesn't fit with being a healthcare provider of any type these days. Networking, communication, and collaboration is pretty key to having a successful practice.
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K. Not exactly how you worded it in the quoted post above.
Sounds like you fit with private practice. If you're ready to put in the hours, could be a fine move. If you want paid time off, Subsidized health insurance, pension, etc then obviously not. This will be a decision based on your values and many, many social, interpersonal and financial variables which you not yet disclosed. No one on this board can tell you what the best decision is for you.
Sounds like you fit with private practice. If you're ready to put in the hours, could be a fine move. If you want paid time off, Subsidized health insurance, pension, etc then obviously not. This will be a decision based on your values and many, many social, interpersonal and financial variables which you not yet disclosed. No one on this board can tell you what the best decision is for you.
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Ditto to the above.
I know very little about school psych, but the challenges sound very similar to those in my world (prison psych). I decided to get back for my PhD while I'm still in my 30s, but a lot of my MA-level friends/colleagues who were in their 40s and 50s got sucked into a political whirlpool and were "advised" to consider different work options by the new-guard directors when the long-term director of the program retired. One had to take a substantial pay cut because there were minimal opportunities locally and she couldn't relocate (single mother of three teenage girls). One ended up taking a job +/-1300 miles away in order to keep his income and do something he actually enjoyed. Career shifting is painful at the master level. If you can get a master-level license to practice elsewhere, it might be worth slowly/gradually transitioning into it and private practice. It's one thing to be miserable in a career and not able to do anything about, but it's another to be miserable in a career when you are working to change it (the audacity of hope and all).
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Going into a clinical, counseling, or school psych PhD program could be a good beat. If you go the school psych PhD route, there are some programs that are much more child clinically oriented and that place a lot of students in non-school settings.
After. When I started my fieldwork.
Thanks. I can no longer afford for a rinky dinky school district to be in charge of my future. I want to assume that role which is why I want to work for myself. All I want to do with school psychology now is to be an independent contractor while I work toward a clinical license. Independent contracting is where the money is right now in this field. I want to be able to deliver services without anyone telling how to deliver those services and what hours to work. I don't want to be supervised. This is how I want to work my way out of school psychology while I build a practice as a therapist. I will probably want to do independent psycho educational evaluations for parents at the school district's expense, but I don"t ever want to be an employee in a school setting.
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I know very little of the field of school psychology as I'm a psychiatrist, but when I read the above lines it had me wondering how much of your unhappiness was about the setting and how much may be about you. Did/do you have such interpersonal conflicts in other jobs/settings?
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Yeah, this whole thread seems to be less about school psychology as a discipline and more about contextual factors, whether they are issues with this particular school district or personal problems for OP.
A friend and fellow school Psychologist just experienced some of the same things in her school district and just quit. I don't like working with people in general as in I don't IIke coworkers, if that answers your question. I would much prefer to be one-on-one with a person, or a task, or doing a job. So even though what I describe as some of the problems in the field of school psychology are accurate, I would acknowledge that they are magnified for me because I don't like being forced to work alongside others that I dislike.
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Private consulting can be a good gig, but you'll still need to be contracted and paid by these same school districts. If you are truly someone who has frequent personality conflicts with school administrators, teachers, etc., that can be a kiss of death for a school consultant. Special Education Coordinators are a tight group (heck- in my area, it's pretty common for them to move to a new district in the area every now and again). If you develop, or already have, a reputation for being difficult, they simply won't contract with you.
I agree with you. This is pretty much why I want out and don't want to have anything to do with school districts.
I think that, for me, it simply comes down to wanting to be my own boss and not take direction from others. Where else can I do that in besides private practice? I also would like to do teletherapy or work from home, or out of my home-maybe. All things that would be diificult to do working for school districts. I also don't find school psychology interesting like I do clinical psychology. I remember how one of my fieldwork supervisors (who had a clinical social worker license) remarked to my other supervisor that I was actually a "therapist". This woman could see back then that I wasn't that interested in school psychology. It's interesting to a degree, but having to be in the school setting takes the enjoyment out of it for me. I also want to work with adults, do marriage therapy. As a school psychologist, I'm stuck working with kids.
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Be mindful of scope of practice concerns. Unless you went to a combined program and completed all of the clinical requirements for licensure as a clinical psychologist, there will be limitations with what you can do. Each state is different with the nuances, but just a word of caution that there are distinct differences in training amongst clinical v. school v. other psych training.
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Tread lightly there. I know a lot of people who explored telehealth, and the cost of being HIPAA compliant is painful.
If I am understanding your reply, I know that I wouldn't be able to do any of this with a school psychology certification, which is why I am exploring LPC or MFT licensure now.
Thanks.
I have done what you are looking to do. I have a School/clinical child PhD. While I was in school, I was able to get a non-terminal MA and state license to work as a school psychologist. It was a great job for a while - I was a roving school psychologist for the Dept of Non-public education, which meant I traveled to Catholic schools, hospital-based schools, Yeshiva schools, and some home-schooling situations to do testing. Pay was decent. Working conditions varied. I then got a 3 day a week permanent position in a school. I know what you are talking about in terms of being trapped in this type of position
However, now I am done grad school, I have my PhD - ever since internship (standard APA accredited in a hospital setting) I have been working in a private practice as a clinician (in NJ you get a temporary license to practice under supervision until you are fully license eligible)
The difference between working in a private practice and school setting is humongous. I love my current job, and my boss is allowing me to bring my caseload with me to private practice once I am licensed (which should be in the next two months or so.) I can't wait to be the complete master of my own schedule (market forces permitting, of course!)
Stick with it - at least half my practice is testing, but now I decide who I test and what tests I use. It's so much more satisfying and enjoyable.
However, now I am done grad school, I have my PhD - ever since internship (standard APA accredited in a hospital setting) I have been working in a private practice as a clinician (in NJ you get a temporary license to practice under supervision until you are fully license eligible)
The difference between working in a private practice and school setting is humongous. I love my current job, and my boss is allowing me to bring my caseload with me to private practice once I am licensed (which should be in the next two months or so.) I can't wait to be the complete master of my own schedule (market forces permitting, of course!)
Stick with it - at least half my practice is testing, but now I decide who I test and what tests I use. It's so much more satisfying and enjoyable.
I also completed PhD programs in both clinical psychology (child/adolescent focus) and school psychology. In my case I started in clinical and decided to add in the school psych piece late in the game (although still before graduating,) thinking that the school psych aspect might give me a better schedule while having/raising young children, and still allow me to work as a psychologist with children (which I love). That said, I ultimately decided to be an at-home parent after graduating with my PhD in my early 30s and now that I am looking to go back to work in my early 40s, I do not think that I could be happy working in a traditional school setting. Who I am has changed (in no small part to raising 3 children who all have special education needs), and the role of a school psychologist has continued to evolve. In combination, I think that there would be a poor fit and I would be at risk of finding myself in a situation similar to the one that you describe (frustrated and uninspired).
.......
Sorry, I just re-read and edited because it looks like your goal is to work as a therapist with minimal additional schooling/hoops to jump through and you are ambivalent to working with children vs. adults....If therapeutic work is your bliss and independent practice is a goal, maybe a psychologist isn't the right fit and some of the counseling roles suggested above would be a faster path to that end. I think that given your experience in school psychology you might want to "try before you buy" when making this change. Learn more about the counseling options available to you and the training involved in achieving them. Learn about the jobs you are considering and talk to people doing them (are they happy? would you be if you were doing what they do?). I would just ask people in your area if they have roadblocks to a robust practice that you need to watch out for (problems with insurance reimbursement, market saturation like you found before, etc). Can you shadow someone (probably not due to confidentiality issues, but worth asking)? Can you volunteer? In any case, I wish you luck in finding greater happiness in your career.
.....
Editing again because I just re-read everything that you've stated above and I'm going to be so bold as to suggest that despite what you've said, maybe you do not really want to be a therapist (unless you just wrote this when very upset and are simply blowing off steam rather than speaking honestly).
To reflect back some of what you shared above:
-You do not want co-workers or to have anyone dictating how you do your job....You need co-workers (and likely a boss) unless you go into independent practice. Unless you are so talented and your area so affluent that you do not need to accept any insurance, you will have to deal with insurance companies (in your independent practice) who may challenge your desire to avoid dealing with restrictions of any sort.
-You suggest a desire to do marriage and family therapy, but you acknowledge that you do not work well/comfortably with others. Marriage and family therapy is all about improving interpersonal dynamics and it sounds like this isn't a strength of yours.
-You speak of doing independent psych evals for the school districts, but in my experience these are only done in cases where the scope and complexity of a child's problems are so vast that the level of expertise available within the school district is inadequate to answer the educational questions; generally this is done by a neuropsychologist or the like. I think that few school districts would find it cost-effective to outsource to a non-licensed master's level school psychologist rather than use in-house talent (but perhaps your area is different). If you are suggesting that you want to earn a PhD/licensure and then do independent evals for schools as your next career, I would suggest that you reconsider this goal. You state that you don't like working with kids. This would be working with kids. Additionally, this is a big deal for parents/children. Families need to advocate hard to get an independent eval done at the school district's expense (sometimes hiring an advocate or attorney to make it happen). They often wait a long time for one, during which time their child is languishing in school. The person doing the evaluation should be really talented and skilled in working with kids who may be challenging, resistant, and struggle with the testing tasks. If you don't like the kids, they'll figure that out and it will not increase compliance or the validity/utility of your findings. It is a privilege to serve children with special education needs in this way, and should be treated as such. It should not be pursued because that's "where the money is."
-You state that, "I don't like being forced to work alongside others that I dislike." Clients are going to be challenging/unlikable at times. It is often part of the process. You mention juvenile detention centers as a possible job site in terms of this transition. This will not be a likable population by-and-large and also involves kids, which is a population that you state that you do not like. It seems like this option shouldn't be on the table.
Finally, I cannot ignore the language that you use throughout your posts, which is very victim-based. You were "lured" into a field that you don't like, crammed into poor work conditions, left at the mercy of "rinky-dink" school districts, and are "stuck" working with kids. You speak of money on several occasions, but never about a desire to serve clients in any capacity. This is a helping profession. There is no shame in not being oriented toward/fulfilled by helping others, but it is not really ethical to work with clients who you do not have an intrinsic desire or talent to help beyond your personal economic gain (I am not suggesting that this is your situation, but it is the gist of the information that you have provided). Moreover, it sounds like using money as a motivator has landed you in a field that you hate by your reports. If it is likely that you will hate being a different sort therapist, money will no longer be enough to keep you going in that role either..
You reflect upon experiences wherein you realized that school psychology was a poor fit, and it may just be that therapy is a poor fit (kudos to you for recognizing this and taking action to change careers if it is the case). Many people start graduate school in some area of psychology and learn over time that this is not what they wish to do or not a skill set that they possess. That is totally okay, but accepting money for a service job that you do not like to do and may not do well in the available circumstances, is worth reflecting upon. I continue to wish you luck in finding a career path that brings you happiness.
.......
Sorry, I just re-read and edited because it looks like your goal is to work as a therapist with minimal additional schooling/hoops to jump through and you are ambivalent to working with children vs. adults....If therapeutic work is your bliss and independent practice is a goal, maybe a psychologist isn't the right fit and some of the counseling roles suggested above would be a faster path to that end. I think that given your experience in school psychology you might want to "try before you buy" when making this change. Learn more about the counseling options available to you and the training involved in achieving them. Learn about the jobs you are considering and talk to people doing them (are they happy? would you be if you were doing what they do?). I would just ask people in your area if they have roadblocks to a robust practice that you need to watch out for (problems with insurance reimbursement, market saturation like you found before, etc). Can you shadow someone (probably not due to confidentiality issues, but worth asking)? Can you volunteer? In any case, I wish you luck in finding greater happiness in your career.
.....
Editing again because I just re-read everything that you've stated above and I'm going to be so bold as to suggest that despite what you've said, maybe you do not really want to be a therapist (unless you just wrote this when very upset and are simply blowing off steam rather than speaking honestly).
To reflect back some of what you shared above:
-You do not want co-workers or to have anyone dictating how you do your job....You need co-workers (and likely a boss) unless you go into independent practice. Unless you are so talented and your area so affluent that you do not need to accept any insurance, you will have to deal with insurance companies (in your independent practice) who may challenge your desire to avoid dealing with restrictions of any sort.
-You suggest a desire to do marriage and family therapy, but you acknowledge that you do not work well/comfortably with others. Marriage and family therapy is all about improving interpersonal dynamics and it sounds like this isn't a strength of yours.
-You speak of doing independent psych evals for the school districts, but in my experience these are only done in cases where the scope and complexity of a child's problems are so vast that the level of expertise available within the school district is inadequate to answer the educational questions; generally this is done by a neuropsychologist or the like. I think that few school districts would find it cost-effective to outsource to a non-licensed master's level school psychologist rather than use in-house talent (but perhaps your area is different). If you are suggesting that you want to earn a PhD/licensure and then do independent evals for schools as your next career, I would suggest that you reconsider this goal. You state that you don't like working with kids. This would be working with kids. Additionally, this is a big deal for parents/children. Families need to advocate hard to get an independent eval done at the school district's expense (sometimes hiring an advocate or attorney to make it happen). They often wait a long time for one, during which time their child is languishing in school. The person doing the evaluation should be really talented and skilled in working with kids who may be challenging, resistant, and struggle with the testing tasks. If you don't like the kids, they'll figure that out and it will not increase compliance or the validity/utility of your findings. It is a privilege to serve children with special education needs in this way, and should be treated as such. It should not be pursued because that's "where the money is."
-You state that, "I don't like being forced to work alongside others that I dislike." Clients are going to be challenging/unlikable at times. It is often part of the process. You mention juvenile detention centers as a possible job site in terms of this transition. This will not be a likable population by-and-large and also involves kids, which is a population that you state that you do not like. It seems like this option shouldn't be on the table.
Finally, I cannot ignore the language that you use throughout your posts, which is very victim-based. You were "lured" into a field that you don't like, crammed into poor work conditions, left at the mercy of "rinky-dink" school districts, and are "stuck" working with kids. You speak of money on several occasions, but never about a desire to serve clients in any capacity. This is a helping profession. There is no shame in not being oriented toward/fulfilled by helping others, but it is not really ethical to work with clients who you do not have an intrinsic desire or talent to help beyond your personal economic gain (I am not suggesting that this is your situation, but it is the gist of the information that you have provided). Moreover, it sounds like using money as a motivator has landed you in a field that you hate by your reports. If it is likely that you will hate being a different sort therapist, money will no longer be enough to keep you going in that role either..
You reflect upon experiences wherein you realized that school psychology was a poor fit, and it may just be that therapy is a poor fit (kudos to you for recognizing this and taking action to change careers if it is the case). Many people start graduate school in some area of psychology and learn over time that this is not what they wish to do or not a skill set that they possess. That is totally okay, but accepting money for a service job that you do not like to do and may not do well in the available circumstances, is worth reflecting upon. I continue to wish you luck in finding a career path that brings you happiness.
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I had posted a response to the OP on a similar thread, but basically, I've found that while what you say is sometimes true, it does depend a lot on the school and the administration. I've experienced almost everything you talk about, but I've also worked (and currently work) in much better environments with good people who value your skills. The administrations at various schools have a lot of power, and can make all the difference between your life being heaven or hell.
Finding testing space though, that's very often a pain. Being in New York where space is at a premium probably doesn't help. Most of the time I have good office space of my own, but I often do need to be more flexible and creative about where I test people. I don't necessarily consider it to be a big deal though, but your mileage may vary. I did once work one day a week where I had my own private office that I could test in. That was nice, although when I wasn't testing I preferred having other people around.
The ethics thing is a big deal, in the past I've had some serious clashes with administration when asked to do some wildly unethical things. Luckily that hasn't happened to me in awhile. Sometimes I might not be able to give a child the services I'd like due lack of resources, or simply due to other people having a different opinion about what they need. The lack of resources part is unfortunate, but differences of opinion don't bother me as long as I feel that what I say is valued and considered. I don't mind if I don't always get my way, after all, who is to say that I'm always right?
This. Thank you. I'm not talking about anyone on here, but it seems to me like a lot of people don't understand why I want to get out of the schools. From what I understand from your post, you are a clinical psychologist? I am already 50 years old, and to pursue a PHD or a Psy D would be a lot of debt for me. I am currently trying to find out if I can get licensed in my state as an LPC with my current Masters in educational psychology, that way I don't have to get anothet degree. I'm sure I would have to take some additional classes and do the post degree experience hours, but I should be able to get that experience in a paid position, right?
As a LPC in private practice, would I make a lot less than a clinical psychologist doing the same thing (therapy)?
I do not know why Jane77 edited out her post. Everything she said was true and exactly what I have experienced and the reason I want out! Yes, I was lured in by the salary and the great "teacher hours", but found out that those things are not worth my integrity. I was asked to do highly unethical things, shoved in closets and one director of special education even made up a fake performance plan to shove me out. The superintendent of curriculum stood behind her even when the teachers union pointed out the inconsistencies in the document, backing up my assertion that I had never laid eyes on it before. Admin sticks together! Make no mistake, they will find ways to punish you if you refuse to do what they want.
So glad someone understands what I am going through. I can't "help" kids or anybody else in this career. I am a testing robot and nothing more.
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How long can we expect the rant to continue this time?
Wow! A rant?? You're really helpful. NOT! Feel free to ignore my thread.
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Please, tell us more about how everyone else is the problem in your working situation and all that you really need is a job where you don't have to work for or with anyone else.
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Yes, a rant. It's fine to ask questions, happens all of the time. But, to resurrect old threads to just rehash a bunch of hyperbole and over-generalizations? That's a rant. To answer the question that you tucked inside of that rant, yes, as a masters level licensed professional you will be paid less (generally) than a psychologist for similar services.
I DIDN'T RESURRECT AN OLD THREAD. There were several posts that were new to this thread FOR ME that I hadn't read yet. You don't own this site, and I can respond to the new information as I like. You keep harping on "over-generaizations". These are not that. These are very real and common ways that most school psychologists are treated in the school districts.
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I would think that this is less of the case when talking about private practice therapy services. I have called around and there are more than a few masters level clinicians charging per hour the same as psychologists.
Will insurance companies reimburse psychologists at a higher rate? If so, how much?
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More than a few, less than a lot, some, maybe. etc. And, you'll have to check with regional carriers to answer that question.
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Alex, I'll take confirmation bias for $1000.
When I think about therapy, animal therapy, sociopathy, mental disorders, helping people free up their mental energy, those things excite me. When I think about curriclum, playgrounds, school cafaterias, those things leave me cold. I also want to write relationship books, books on how to recognize and deal with mental disorders. I would also maybe like to explore substance abuse certification.
D
deleted343839
Many factors determine income. You need to learn about your local market to have an idea of what's possible or likely. I live in a city with many psychologists and master's level clinicians. The LPCs usually earn less than psychologists, but there are exceptions. The LPCs I know who are doing well financially have taken the time to get training and experience in a specific area and have learned to market themselves well (networking, getting exposure, building relationships with referral sources). But if you're going to set up a generalist-type practice, see 5-6 people a day, and take mostly insurance, then you'll probably make less than a psychologist.
Also, recognize that in private practice you're really not just answering to yourself at the end of the day. Your patients/clients need to be happy enough with your services to come back. Same goes for the people who refer to you. And you need to have enough self-motivation and know-how to get exposure for yourself. Being a competent therapist and providing services that people will pay for and come back for are not necessarily one and the same.
Thanks, Mama! This makes a lot of sense. My parents always told me that whatever I do, do it to the bset of my ability. I think that I can do this in a career and setting that I actually like.
Jane, why did you delete your very valid post?? People that are considering entering the field need to hear the realities of the job.
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You know, I appreciate the advice on here. I really do. Having said that, it's easy to say, "Oh, she's a victim", "Or she's going on another rant" when you're on the outside looking in. I wonder how many of you psychologists would put up with being forced to work out of a broom closet?...
Psych. meout, I'll take 0 for $1,000.
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There's certainly something to be said for "small" things such as office space, which can speak to (true or not) how much the employer values your services and, relatedly, how valued you feel by them. Although this of course has to be viewed relatively to some extent. It's one thing if everyone's working out of a broom closet; if it's just you, that could be irritating.
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deleted343839
As a matter of fact, both of the treatments offices I've worked in are former janitorial/storage closets. They're big closets, but still.
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Many people have an idealized version of what things are like in other institutions. It's rarely the nice big, book lined, offices that you see in TV/movies.
