- Joined
- Jul 11, 2002
- Messages
- 892
- Reaction score
- 0
Anyone read Christensen's article? Not ground breaking, but makes some good points.
I Have Had Enough
- Thread starter Zurich5
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 737
- Reaction score
- 1
Read it, but don't want to believe he's right. I hope he's just had some bad experiences that have distorted his perception.
I want to believe that over-treating dentists are a small percentage; there are schmucks in every profession. But I can't really weigh in on that as I don't know many practicing dentists.
The one thing I don't question is his view on research. Obviously there are some problems with some of the "peer-reviewed" journals. There is simply not enough money available for dental research; so, if the research is going to get done it's likely going to be through corporate sponsors. Very difficult situation. Research isn't free. There's just not going to be an easy answer to that one.
I want to believe that over-treating dentists are a small percentage; there are schmucks in every profession. But I can't really weigh in on that as I don't know many practicing dentists.
The one thing I don't question is his view on research. Obviously there are some problems with some of the "peer-reviewed" journals. There is simply not enough money available for dental research; so, if the research is going to get done it's likely going to be through corporate sponsors. Very difficult situation. Research isn't free. There's just not going to be an easy answer to that one.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
- Messages
- 376
- Reaction score
- 4
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Messages
- 11,749
- Reaction score
- 24
I've worked with him for years/lived down the street from him.
He makes valid points, although it certainly doesn't apply to everybody. I would venture that the % of schmucks in our profession is higher than even we would imagine, however.
Above all, I think it serves as a great warning to those entering the profession (such as myself).
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
Too true.
After my sister finished her GPR in 2001 and went out looking for trial associateships, she did encounter quite a few in which the practice owner pressured her to sell expensive treatment plans with unnecessary procedures that amounts to iatrogenic dentistry.
She got out of those places REAL quick.
Guess I'm lucky I probably won't have to go through that..
After my sister finished her GPR in 2001 and went out looking for trial associateships, she did encounter quite a few in which the practice owner pressured her to sell expensive treatment plans with unnecessary procedures that amounts to iatrogenic dentistry.
She got out of those places REAL quick.Guess I'm lucky I probably won't have to go through that..
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2003
- Messages
- 1,726
- Reaction score
- 7
finally found it.
How Honest Are Dentists?
By William Ecenbarger
Reader's Digest
http://www.rd.com/common/nav/index.jhtml?articleId=9519799
How Honest Are Dentists?
By William Ecenbarger
Reader's Digest
http://www.rd.com/common/nav/index.jhtml?articleId=9519799
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2003
- Messages
- 93
- Reaction score
- 0
reading that stuff makes me sick... i truly hope that i do not become one of those jaded dentists...
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Messages
- 1,003
- Reaction score
- 1
_______________________________________________
Quote:
"Americans' dental health has improved dramatically since 1945, the year cavity-fighting fluoride was first added to local water supplies. Traditional dental practice--drill, fill and bill--has fallen off dramatically. According to the National Institute of Dental Research, the number of children with cavities in their permanent teeth dropped by more than half between the early 1970s and early 1990s. Meanwhile the population of dentists has grown by 50 percent.
"The decline in the incidence of cavities has led to increased competition among dentists," says Dr. Dodes. "Dentists, in turn, are seeking ever more ways to make money from their patients." His role with the National Council Against Health Fraud is to help protect patients against overcharging, over-treatment and outright quackery."
__________________________________________________
Didn't they kept telling you that the # of dentist is decreasing?
i hope that guy didn't get x-rays at all 50 practices...
Sigh what a depressing article...truely hope those dentist were just being *honest* and really believe that's the best treatment and not doing it to max profit....
Quote:
"Americans' dental health has improved dramatically since 1945, the year cavity-fighting fluoride was first added to local water supplies. Traditional dental practice--drill, fill and bill--has fallen off dramatically. According to the National Institute of Dental Research, the number of children with cavities in their permanent teeth dropped by more than half between the early 1970s and early 1990s. Meanwhile the population of dentists has grown by 50 percent.
"The decline in the incidence of cavities has led to increased competition among dentists," says Dr. Dodes. "Dentists, in turn, are seeking ever more ways to make money from their patients." His role with the National Council Against Health Fraud is to help protect patients against overcharging, over-treatment and outright quackery."
__________________________________________________
Didn't they kept telling you that the # of dentist is decreasing?
i hope that guy didn't get x-rays at all 50 practices...
Sigh what a depressing article...truely hope those dentist were just being *honest* and really believe that's the best treatment and not doing it to max profit....
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2000
- Messages
- 2,938
- Reaction score
- 658
The other point that Gordo made that is totally valid is about the CE lecturers who spend more time pitching products than actually talking about techniques. I was at at CE lecture about a week and a half ago given by Newton Fahl, a restorative dentist out of Brazil. While he had some clinical presentations of some very nice composite work, he literally spent the first 2 hours of the day just naming off products left and right Also, as you'll see when you start going to ALOT of CE courses, these lecturing docs that are paid by materials manufacturers and get their supplies at little or no cost, just don't seem to realize that for us "regular" dentists that aren't being compensated by the manufacturers, we'd see a substantial jump in our overheads just to stock all of the materials that they pitch as "essential", unless of course we could get all of our patients to pay $500 for a 1 surface composite!
The scary thing that you start to see as you goto more and more CE lectures, especially about composite techniques, is thatbjust about every one of the lecturers will advocate that you have 5 or 6 different and complete composite systems in your office For reference sake, my office just did our roughly bi-monthly big restocking of our composite shades(the 5 or 6 shades that you'll find you'll use 90+% of the time, and C4 isn't one of them ), and that was about $2000 of composite. Now, just imagine if your ordering and stocking from 6 different companies.
You'll likely come to realize that when when a CE lecturer says that they don't get any financial compensation for this product, that they probably do, but in the ways that Gordon mentioned his Dentaltown article
Also, as you'll see when you start going to ALOT of CE courses, these lecturing docs that are paid by materials manufacturers and get their supplies at little or no cost, just don't seem to realize that for us "regular" dentists that aren't being compensated by the manufacturers, we'd see a substantial jump in our overheads just to stock all of the materials that they pitch as "essential", unless of course we could get all of our patients to pay $500 for a 1 surface composite!The scary thing that you start to see as you goto more and more CE lectures, especially about composite techniques, is thatbjust about every one of the lecturers will advocate that you have 5 or 6 different and complete composite systems in your office
For reference sake, my office just did our roughly bi-monthly big restocking of our composite shades(the 5 or 6 shades that you'll find you'll use 90+% of the time, and C4 isn't one of them ), and that was about $2000 of composite. Now, just imagine if your ordering and stocking from 6 different companies.You'll likely come to realize that when when a CE lecturer says that they don't get any financial compensation for this product, that they probably do, but in the ways that Gordon mentioned his Dentaltown article
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 480
- Reaction score
- 7
I'm not going to defend these unscrupulous dentists. However, what does amaze me is how much dentistry is attacked when many other fields incolve this same level of exploitation. Do you really think physicians don't rip patients off? Let me ask you how many times physicians will order X-rays and other unnecessary exams in addition to scheduling repeated visits for minor complications. Brokers, lawyers, chiropracters etc. exploit their clients to some degree. The fact of the matter is that a job that includes an element of sales will often involve some level of deceit and exploitation.
Yes, what these dentists do is wrong. But other fields have been doing the same for years yet dentists seem to have a bigger magnifying glass focused on them.
Case in point, LASIK physicians often provide a "free" eye exam or some type of exam to see if a candidate "qualifies" for LASIK. I wonder how many patients these eye surgeons actually turn away. Get my drift. I wonder how many plastic surgeons turn away patients and say: "Oh your breasts look fine, you don't need anything." That's never the case. They will always suggest a lift or something else to "enhance" the patient's appearance. Dermatologists will often pawn off various skin creams, and other pocedures like microderm abrasion when patients don't need it. How many times do you see psychiatrists and psychologists feel that enough therapy has been undergone. No, it's never enough. They always schedule many follow up consultations etc.
If a family practice doc has his own X-ray machine, you count almost count on leaving his office with at least a few X-rays done. Stomach ache? Oh, we better order an X-ray to see if there could be further complications.
This is not just limited to dentists.
Yes, what these dentists do is wrong. But other fields have been doing the same for years yet dentists seem to have a bigger magnifying glass focused on them.
Case in point, LASIK physicians often provide a "free" eye exam or some type of exam to see if a candidate "qualifies" for LASIK. I wonder how many patients these eye surgeons actually turn away. Get my drift. I wonder how many plastic surgeons turn away patients and say: "Oh your breasts look fine, you don't need anything." That's never the case. They will always suggest a lift or something else to "enhance" the patient's appearance. Dermatologists will often pawn off various skin creams, and other pocedures like microderm abrasion when patients don't need it. How many times do you see psychiatrists and psychologists feel that enough therapy has been undergone. No, it's never enough. They always schedule many follow up consultations etc.
If a family practice doc has his own X-ray machine, you count almost count on leaving his office with at least a few X-rays done. Stomach ache? Oh, we better order an X-ray to see if there could be further complications.
This is not just limited to dentists.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
- Messages
- 258
- Reaction score
- 0
oh I so agree with
mcataz, In fact that's exactly what I was thinking about when reading the article. My friend works in a Medical Office and I often get the stories of how "clever" the docs are there when it comes to money. The latest I heard was to fake/switch MRI results to suggest extensive treatment for individuals that were in an "accident" There things are nothing new to me, and most of us one day or another will come across these issues. JUst don't forget why you choose this profession.
Good luck to all of you.
mcataz, In fact that's exactly what I was thinking about when reading the article. My friend works in a Medical Office and I often get the stories of how "clever" the docs are there when it comes to money. The latest I heard was to fake/switch MRI results to suggest extensive treatment for individuals that were in an "accident" There things are nothing new to me, and most of us one day or another will come across these issues. JUst don't forget why you choose this profession.
Good luck to all of you.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Messages
- 11,749
- Reaction score
- 24
I think one difference upon which patients tend to dwell, is that they typically have NO clue as to what we are doing in their mouths.
When you see a physician, you at least have an idea of what they are doing, and you can physically see them doing it.
With us, all they know is that their mouths are open and we have tools in their mouths.
Not that this is a great excuse, but I think it plays a part. People generally base their feelings of a "good doctor" on what they can see. With dentistry, they can't see much.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
- Messages
- 187
- Reaction score
- 0
Come on dude thats BS. I know its nice to think that dentistry is somehow held to a higher standard than everything else, but thats just not the case. ALL health professions are under scrutiny.
True, just like SOME dentists, there are SOME physicians who overtreat.
Keep in mind though that 95% of physicians are paid by HMOs, which are notorious for only reimbursing half or less of the actual cost of procedure.
Dentistry is not as infiltrated with money-grubbing HMOs, so their reimbursement percentage as function of actual cost is much higher than physicians for that reason.
Another thing with physicians is that they get sued like crazy and are often the target of bogus lawsuits. That happens some with dentists, but not NEARLY as much as with physicians. In order to protect themselves against lawsuits, physicians have to order extra lab tests and stuff thats not really necessary.
Come on man thats just BS. Physicians face just as much, if not MORE, scrutiny than dentists.
Besides, its stupid to argue that since other people do it that it somehow lessens the offense. All healthcare providers need to do a better job, including dentists AND physicians.
Actually, the success rates for LASIK is extremely high. If they were just taking anybody and everybody and not thoroughly screening them, then there would be a high percentage of people for which LASIK fails. If you check the stats though, the VAST majority of LASIK patients do great.
Thats another bad example. The job of the plastic surgeon is not to say one way or the other how somebody looks--obviously the patient would never have gone to the doc to begin with if they liked their appearance.
Instead, their job is to decide whether they can help the patient or not. If what you said was true, then a very high percentage of plastic surg patients would come away from the operation unsatisifed. However, statistics dont bear that out.
How do you define "often"? Do you have actual statistics? I'm sure dermatologists do what you say TO SOME DEGREE... but is it rampant and commonplace? I havent seen any evidence of that.
Is this just a made up example or do you have some kind of data to back it up?
OF COURSE its not limited to dentists, nobody ever said that. All groups have bad apples and greedy fools who rip people off. HOWEVER, thats really a poor excuse for ignoring the issue and trying to lessen the impact that poor care can have on patients.
ALL OF US NEED TO DO BETTER!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
- Messages
- 187
- Reaction score
- 0
This situation is outright fraud. If your "friend" doesnt report it, he's part of the problem.
I've never heard of any doctors doing that sort of outright fraud.
There seems to be a tendency in this thread to say "HEY, other doctors do this all the time, so get off our back!"
Thats totally stupid reasoning. I dont recall anybody or any article saying that ONLY dentists can be frauds.
Similar threads
- Question
