I need some advice

[doe_eyes]

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Hi everyone.

So I am currently in a dilemma and could really use some advice. I have started the VMCAS application for this cycle and I am pretty far ahead and would say I am making good progress with it. I currently have 2 LORs, one from a professor and one from my research supervisor. As everyone probably knows, at least one LOR must be from a veterinarian (which is required by most schools). My in-state is Davis and they require at least one from a vet. Well, I just finished interning for a vet and asked her for a LOR. She told me that she was not able to write one for me because she is already writing 2 LORs this summer and does not think that she will have time to write another. So, I was basically set on asking her after my internship was over (ie. now), but was not really anticipating her to say no. I know I should have more than 1 vet I can ask, but wait! Let me tell you about my first time trying to apply last year. I had interned for a local vet in my hometown on and off through high school and the beginning of college (during holiday breaks) racking up around 200 hours. She was also our family vet for ~10 years and we had taken our dog to see her when he was alive. Well, when I was attempting to apply last year, I had given her a call to ask for a LOR (I am away for school). She was not able to come to the phone so I left a message with the receptionist. Three days later, there was no call back, so I left another message with the receptionist. STILL, no call back 2 days later. I had left 3 messages with the techs/receptionist, all ensuring that she has got my message and will call back when she can. Well, after 2 weeks of hearing nothing, I decided to just drive back home one weekend and go see her in person. With my luck, I arrived and they told me that she had taken a day off that day . So I left another message, along with a folder with my 1st draft PS, transcript, experience history, etc. I never got a call back and by the end of around a month of waiting, I finally realized that she was not going to call me back and so I just reluctantly decided that I could not apply this cycle (she was the only vet that I had worked closely with and had a good relationship with, or so I thought). After this incident, I was extremely frustrated, sad, angry, that she could not have given me the courtesy of a phone call. I eventually got over it and "started over" with a new internship in the beginning of June. I just finished and well, again, no LOR for me....🙁

Okay, here is my question. I have been interning for another (different) vet for about a month now and have less than 100 hours working with her. Should I ask this vet, even though I do not know her as well and have the least experience with working with her? I don't feel like she can write me a strong LOR simply because I have not worked with her for that long. I know if I ask, and she says yes, then I can apply and see how everything goes from there. And if she says no, well, then I have no option but to wait until next year.

Sorry for the long post. It honestly feels good to kind of write about this and let all my frustrations out.... Any advice would help! Thank you.

 

[Felixor90]

Ask the other vet. If you don't ask, you're left with no other option but to wait another year. If you ask and end up with a mediocre letter, you can at least apply this cycle and start looking for other opportunities with other vets in case you don't get in this round. Honestly, I believe that if your stats are strong, you don't need a glorious letter as long as they do mention your positive qualities and talk about your work ethic, etc. Just my opinion, though.

 

[doe_eyes]

I think I will have to ask the other vet. @Felixor90 you are right that I should at least ask and see how it goes. Should I explain my situation though, or no?

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think I will have to ask the other vet. @Felixor90 you are right that I should at least ask and see how it goes. Should I explain my situation though, or no?

No. Think about how that sounds, "so the only two vets I've worked extensively with over the past however many months or years won't write me a LOR, and I can't apply without one. Can you write me one?"

Just ask and don't mention all of that. No need to cloud whatever judgment s/ he has of you.

 

[Bismarck]

It's not a bad idea to approach this other vet and be honest with your intentions. Something to the effect of "I am interested in pursuing a career in veterinary medicine and will be submitting applications to XYZ vet schools this fall (perhaps their alma mater?). Because I will be working under your close supervision these next few weeks, do you feel that you could write a strong letter in support of my application given advanced notice?"

I would also offer to sit down and have a chit chat if they have questions or want to get to know you better. I agree that there is no need to mention that others have turned down writing LORs. Good luck.

 

[VetADMIN]

Hi everyone.

So I am currently in a dilemma and could really use some advice. I have started the VMCAS application for this cycle and I am pretty far ahead and would say I am making good progress with it. I currently have 2 LORs, one from a professor and one from my research supervisor. As everyone probably knows, at least one LOR must be from a veterinarian (which is required by most schools). My in-state is Davis and they require at least one from a vet. Well, I just finished interning for a vet and asked her for a LOR. She told me that she was not able to write one for me because she is already writing 2 LORs this summer and does not think that she will have time to write another. So, I was basically set on asking her after my internship was over (ie. now), but was not really anticipating her to say no. I know I should have more than 1 vet I can ask, but wait! Let me tell you about my first time trying to apply last year. I had interned for a local vet in my hometown on and off through high school and the beginning of college (during holiday breaks) racking up around 200 hours. She was also our family vet for ~10 years and we had taken our dog to see her when he was alive. Well, when I was attempting to apply last year, I had given her a call to ask for a LOR (I am away for school). She was not able to come to the phone so I left a message with the receptionist. Three days later, there was no call back, so I left another message with the receptionist. STILL, no call back 2 days later. I had left 3 messages with the techs/receptionist, all ensuring that she has got my message and will call back when she can. Well, after 2 weeks of hearing nothing, I decided to just drive back home one weekend and go see her in person. With my luck, I arrived and they told me that she had taken a day off that day . So I left another message, along with a folder with my 1st draft PS, transcript, experience history, etc. I never got a call back and by the end of around a month of waiting, I finally realized that she was not going to call me back and so I just reluctantly decided that I could not apply this cycle (she was the only vet that I had worked closely with and had a good relationship with, or so I thought). After this incident, I was extremely frustrated, sad, angry, that she could not have given me the courtesy of a phone call. I eventually got over it and "started over" with a new internship in the beginning of June. I just finished and well, again, no LOR for me....🙁

Okay, here is my question. I have been interning for another (different) vet for about a month now and have less than 100 hours working with her. Should I ask this vet, even though I do not know her as well and have the least experience with working with her? I don't feel like she can write me a strong LOR simply because I have not worked with her for that long. I know if I ask, and she says yes, then I can apply and see how everything goes from there. And if she says no, well, then I have no option but to wait until next year.

Sorry for the long post. It honestly feels good to kind of write about this and let all my frustrations out.... Any advice would help! Thank you.

Call UC Davis and ask to speak to the Associate Dean for Student Programs (me) - I can answer your question.

 

[pp9]

I don't want to be discouraging at all, but I'll share my experience with my first application cycle:

I had decent (roughly average for veterinary schools) grades, decent hours (although not sky high), and I think 5 or 6 letters, I can't remember. One was from a vet who I had worked about 100 hours with. I will tell you that that single letter was a red flag in every single file review I did, and I applied to/was rejected by 5 schools. Each veterinarian/school is different, but one school specifically told me that having a letter from a veterinarian who has essentially spent only ~3 weeks of time with me was a huge red flag. If I'm applying, I need to have developed relationships with a veterinarian(s) over a longer period of time. Also, another school told me that they "prefer" letters from vets who you've worked with for at least 1 year. Plus, that veterinarian wrote just a few sentences about me because she was very busy and probably didn't have much material on me at that point. She wrote a much better letter the next year. While I don't think that letter was the main reason for any rejection, it certainly didn't help me at all.

If you don't have stellar grades and hours, I would sit back and really decide if you want to risk it. Ask every school you apply to if it matters how long you've worked with someone. It was a lot of money that I spent on that first cycle, and I didn't even get any interviews. In my opinion, with having only three letters, the only veterinarian-written letter should probably be pretty outstanding. Make sure she doesn't seem uncomfortable with the idea of it or anything.

With that being said, LORs don't usually bear a significant amount of weight in application processes. If your grades are great you have really good experience, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

As for the doctor that snubbed you, don't take it personally. I volunteered at a wildlife rehab center for ~2 years. It was a 45 minute drive one way, and I did it weekly while working two jobs and going to school. The vet there wrote me a letter while I was volunteering, but completely ignored my calls/emails during my second cycle. I had moved across the country and was no longer volunteering there. Some vets just don't have time, others don't like being hit up like that. Who knows.

 

[Felixor90]

Some vets just don't have time, others don't like being hit up like that. Who knows.

And some are just dinguses...Just because they're a vet doesn't make them immune from being a human. 😉

 

[doe_eyes]

I don't want to be discouraging at all, but I'll share my experience with my first application cycle:

I had decent (roughly average for veterinary schools) grades, decent hours (although not sky high), and I think 5 or 6 letters, I can't remember. One was from a vet who I had worked about 100 hours with. I will tell you that that single letter was a red flag in every single file review I did, and I applied to/was rejected by 5 schools. Each veterinarian/school is different, but one school specifically told me that having a letter from a veterinarian who has essentially spent only ~3 weeks of time with me was a huge red flag. If I'm applying, I need to have developed relationships with a veterinarian(s) over a longer period of time. Also, another school told me that they "prefer" letters from vets who you've worked with for at least 1 year. Plus, that veterinarian wrote just a few sentences about me because she was very busy and probably didn't have much material on me at that point. She wrote a much better letter the next year. While I don't think that letter was the main reason for any rejection, it certainly didn't help me at all.

If you don't have stellar grades and hours, I would sit back and really decide if you want to risk it. Ask every school you apply to if it matters how long you've worked with someone. It was a lot of money that I spent on that first cycle, and I didn't even get any interviews. In my opinion, with having only three letters, the only veterinarian-written letter should probably be pretty outstanding. Make sure she doesn't seem uncomfortable with the idea of it or anything.

With that being said, LORs don't usually bear a significant amount of weight in application processes. If your grades are great you have really good experience, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

As for the doctor that snubbed you, don't take it personally. I volunteered at a wildlife rehab center for ~2 years. It was a 45 minute drive one way, and I did it weekly while working two jobs and going to school. The vet there wrote me a letter while I was volunteering, but completely ignored my calls/emails during my second cycle. I had moved across the country and was no longer volunteering there. Some vets just don't have time, others don't like being hit up like that. Who knows.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I do understand that a mediocre-bad LOR can hurt me in the application process. I have mediocre grades and good experience and research hours. I was hoping that because my grades are not that great (GPA: 3.4), that the other parts of my application will make up for it somewhat. It kind of sucks that my Davis is my in-state school because they don't even take into account LORs in their admission decisions (plus my gpa are not that great anyway for them). That's why I was already preparing to apply to other schools that do consider the LOR in their decisions (even if minimal). But now, I need to, like you said, really think about whether I should apply or wait another year.

 

[doe_eyes]

No. Think about how that sounds, "so the only two vets I've worked extensively with over the past however many months or years won't write me a LOR, and I can't apply without one. Can you write me one?"

Just ask and don't mention all of that. No need to cloud whatever judgment s/ he has of you.

Thanks for the advice. Yeah I was thinking about this and I don't want it seem like a "last resort" type of deal, cause that can rub people the wrong way and make things awkward. And I really like all the vets that I have worked with recently so I don't want to insult/offend them in that way! 😀

 

[Felixor90]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I do understand that a mediocre-bad LOR can hurt me in the application process. I have mediocre grades and good experience and research hours. I was hoping that because my grades are not that great (GPA: 3.4), that the other parts of my application will make up for it somewhat. It kind of sucks that my Davis is my in-state school because they don't even take into account LORs in their admission decisions (plus my gpa are not that great anyway for them). That's why I was already preparing to apply to other schools that do consider the LOR in their decisions (even if minimal). But now, I need to, like you said, really think about whether I should apply or wait another year.

I don't think a 3.4 is in the range where LORs make it or break it for you, especially if your GRE scores are decent as well.

 

[pp9]

I don't think a 3.4 is in the range where LORs make it or break it for you, especially if your GRE scores are decent as well.

I'm going to disagree with this. A 3.4 is slightly below average for a veterinary school. It certainly doesn't mean you have a bad GPA or could never stand a chance, but you're going to need a LOT of experience hours, a really good GRE, and killer letters/essays to offset that. I would have said letters don't matter as much for you if you were above a 3.7. What other experiences do you have? Based off the OP, it makes it sound like you might have only a few hundred hours. The difference between my 1st and 2nd application cycles were experience and letters. My GPA and GRE were the same.

I think your first step, before making any decisions, is to check with the schools you want to apply to and see if they will ding you on the fact that your only vet LOR is from one you've known for a month.

 

[thelemonzest]

If you are applying to Davis, you should know that they do not require actual LORs; they use the PPI evaluation, which allegedly takes 15 minutes and just requires rating you on various qualities. Might want to try mentioning that to your first-choice letter writer.

 

[WillowLeaf]

It kind of sucks that my Davis is my in-state school because they don't even take into account LORs in their admission decisions (plus my gpa are not that great anyway for them).

But they do take into account PPI evaluations, so that might help offset an average or slightly low GPA.

If you are applying to Davis, you should know that they do not require actual LORs; they use the PPI evaluation, which allegedly takes 15 minutes and just requires rating you on various qualities. Might want to try mentioning that to your first-choice letter writer.

Maybe the PPI evaluation has changed since I applied, but I remember it including a space for explanation of each rating. It might take only 15 minutes to pick a number rating for each quality, but it's a stronger evaluation if the evaluator can write a short description of why they rated you that way or an example of a time you demonstrated a strong positive quality. From what my evaluators told me, I got the impression the PPI took some time to complete fully.

 

[VetADMIN]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I do understand that a mediocre-bad LOR can hurt me in the application process. I have mediocre grades and good experience and research hours. I was hoping that because my grades are not that great (GPA: 3.4), that the other parts of my application will make up for it somewhat. It kind of sucks that my Davis is my in-state school because they don't even take into account LORs in their admission decisions (plus my gpa are not that great anyway for them). That's why I was already preparing to apply to other schools that do consider the LOR in their decisions (even if minimal). But now, I need to, like you said, really think about whether I should apply or wait another year.

Again, I would encourage you to call me as I can give you accurate and useful information regarding your application with regard to UC Davis - no urban legend, no I heard this, no rumor, just an objective review of your application, grades, GPA etc. Moreover, if you have questions about your chances/application you should always call the schools associate dean or admissions officer. I mean no disrespect but message boards are not always the best source of information. Always go the the source.

 

[Skimble]

Again, I would encourage you to call me as I can give you accurate and useful information regarding your application with regard to UC Davis - no urban legend, no I heard this, no rumor, just an objective review of your application, grades, GPA etc. Moreover, if you have questions about your chances/application you should always call the schools associate dean or admissions officer. I mean no disrespect but message boards are not always the best source of information. Always go the the source.

I will second this as the admissions counselors at Penn were extremely helpful to me, and even reviewed my personal statement for me.

 

[twelvetigers]

Well *I* heard that UC Davis only accepts people with at least a 3.6 and a vet reference that has known them for a minimum of three years.





And the PPI form includes a 3,000 word essay on ways that the applicant has demonstrated their ability to comprehend veterinary medicine and follow specific instructions in stressful situations.





And the applicant's birthday should fall within four days of a full moon in the desired year of matriculation.








And they kinda prefer brunettes, because blonde hair is *so* last year.



Yeah, probably best to listen to the actual admin from the school.

 

[dyachei]

Moreover, if you have questions about your chances/application you should always call the schools associate dean or admissions officer. I mean no disrespect but message boards are not always the best source of information. Always go the the source.

quoted for truth.

We (forum dwellers) also tend to tell applicants to call the schools more often than not. 🙂

 

[VetADMIN]

Well *I* heard that UC Davis only accepts people with at least a 3.6 and a vet reference that has known them for a minimum of three years.





And the PPI form includes a 3,000 word essay on ways that the applicant has demonstrated their ability to comprehend veterinary medicine and follow specific instructions in stressful situations.





And the applicant's birthday should fall within four days of a full moon in the desired year of matriculation.



See what I mean, the applicant's birthday should actually fall with 6 DAYS of a full moon...this is exactly how rumors get started 🙂





And they kinda prefer brunettes, because blonde hair is *so* last year.



Yeah, probably best to listen to the actual admin from the school.

 

[doe_eyes]

Well *I* heard that UC Davis only accepts people with at least a 3.6 and a vet reference that has known them for a minimum of three years.





And the PPI form includes a 3,000 word essay on ways that the applicant has demonstrated their ability to comprehend veterinary medicine and follow specific instructions in stressful situations.





And the applicant's birthday should fall within four days of a full moon in the desired year of matriculation.








And they kinda prefer brunettes, because blonde hair is *so* last year.



Yeah, probably best to listen to the actual admin from the school.

I'm so glad I decided to dye my hair back to it's natural dark shade! 😛 My blondie friend though....sucks for her.

Anyway, I'm waiting to retake my GREs in a couple of days before I actually finalize which schools I'm applying to (or if I'm applying), since everything else is pretty much set....

Thanks everyone for the help and advice! I really appreciate it!! 🙂

 

[VetADMIN]

and yet my phone still does not ring....sigh 🙂

 

[pp9]

Again, I would encourage you to call me as I can give you accurate and useful information regarding your application with regard to UC Davis - no urban legend, no I heard this, no rumor, just an objective review of your application, grades, GPA etc. Moreover, if you have questions about your chances/application you should always call the schools associate dean or admissions officer. I mean no disrespect but message boards are not always the best source of information. Always go the the source.

I just want to say that I think it's great that you seem to take such an interest in connecting with pre-vets and potential applicants. It seems like some schools almost don't want to communicate with potential applicants or won't give them as much helpful information as they can/should. Personal opinion there though. I've had a phenomenal experience with a few schools, as well 🙂

 

[VetADMIN]

I just want to say that I think it's great that you seem to take such an interest in connecting with pre-vets and potential applicants. It seems like some schools almost don't want to communicate with potential applicants or won't give them as much helpful information as they can/should. Personal opinion there though. I've had a phenomenal experience with a few schools, as well 🙂

As educators, we/I are in the "making veterinarians" business and as such, students can take their hard earned educational dollars to the school that best serves them as a customer. Vet schools are not doing students favors by letting students in, they are making a business decision - just like students are not doing the school a favor by choosing to attend. I believe in treating our future students (customers) with the respect that they deserve. I want them to succeed and to be happy with their choice of school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

and yet my phone still does not ring....sigh 🙂

The trend we see here, is that the most logical advice always gets ignored.

 

[VetADMIN]

The trend we see here, is that the most logical advice always gets ignored.

I always promise myself that I will not offer unsolicited advice...and then promptly break that promise 🙂

 

[doe_eyes]

and yet my phone still does not ring....sigh 🙂

Not purposely ignoring your advice! Like I said above, waiting to take the GRE in a couple days and didn't want to call before having all my stats.... Will definitely call once those are in!

BTW. I asked the other vet I am interning for, and she agreed to write a letter for me!

 

[VetADMIN]

Not purposely ignoring your advice! Like I said above, waiting to take the GRE in a couple days and didn't want to call before having all my stats.... Will definitely call once those are in!

BTW. I asked the other vet I am interning for, and she agreed to write a letter for me!

okay, I feel better now 🙂