PhD/PsyD I should probably give up on the whole idea, right?

[badpict]

thanks to helpers, can't leave this up RE opsec

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[Grenth]

When reviewing applicants for internship programs I have seen multiple applications from people who disclosed criminal histories prior to starting funded PhD programs. However, they have typically been old DUIs or juvenile delinquency not felonies nor so recent so that likely makes a significant difference. Even for the minor records we must advise applicants that it is possible they will not clear federal background checks and to investigate that before ranking our site.


In your case should you overcome your criminal record you still have the matter of your (ongoing?) sex work/substance use which if you disclose in the manner you did here, may disqualify you on ethical grounds. When someone is becoming licensed as a psychologist their supervisors must attest to their ethics and character. Even sex work/substance use positive supervisors may find this history challenging especially if it was not all strictly legal.

My final thought is you seem adamant about wanting to do research/be a scientist so I'd encourage you to first focus on taking psychological science and statistics courses. If you're not comfortable with the core components of science then it's good to know now before you make it your life's goal. Second you must gain research experience. Typically this is done by joining the lab of someone at your university while taking those courses but occasionally people can find other opportunities. The goal is to demonstrate you have a basic understanding of how psychology research works and gain practice presenting that research. If you're lucky and work hard you might even get authorship on a publication. These are also the places to find letter writers. Have these people read your application materials thoroughly so you don't over disclose or appear unprofessional while still being honest about your situation.

If you do all that you could explore applying to a clinical PhD but if your is primarily research I think your acceptance odds are better in a non license eligible subfield of psychology. Most clinical PhDs do little science after they finish their training and internship and licensure will be substantial hurdles with your background. So I'd say look into psychology PhDs outside of clinical/counseling and see if those would better meet your needs. If those aren't for you then once you've polished your CV apply to some clinical PhDs and get their specific feedback if they reject you. If the feedback is dire then an MSW or LPC might be an option but you may also encounter the same ethical issues.

 

[Spydra]

It is great that you're asking if you'll be able to get a license before starting this journey. Too many people don't do that and waste a lot of time. I imagine you know what state you want to be in long-term, so that's a good place to start. Perhaps you can speak to the state board or your former attorney and have them help you explore if it's possible to become licensed in that state of interest.

You also mention a strong interest in research. It is possible to have research career without a license to practice clinical or counseling psychology. I'm wondering if perhaps a Master's in Clinical Research would appeal to you in terms of career options, helping you solidify your research interests, and give you valuable research experience and professors to write LORs. Now you could very well stop there, but if you still want the PhD after that you'll have a much better application especially since you're saying research is what you want to do, not therapy.

 

[ihaveanxpsyd]

I'll just add about the background checks - from my understanding, most states use some kind of FBI background check for licensure, and additionally, many training sites do as well (especially if you are wanting to train in the VA or DoD settings). Although your conviction is expunged, it will still show up on these, and more importantly, you are in a tricky place where you may be damned if you do disclose and damned if you don't. I will echo what others have said about trying out research courses or perhaps pursuing a master's in clinical research or science prior to pursuing a doctorate. This conviction from only 4 years ago (I know the issue was actually 7 ish years ago), especially with the charge having started as a felony (which will likely also be visible on an FBI check) may unfortunately significantly limit your options until more time has passed.

 

[Spydra]

The response from ihaveanxpsyd reminded me something. When I was in grad school we learned of a students at other programs who had matched on internship and then had those offers rescinded after background checks uncovered old felonies. I don't know all of the specifics of those charges, but do know that they were left with no internship at the last minute. A couple of them found opportunities in post match and went on to graduate. The others focused on dissertation, reapplied the following year, and I lost track of them. After all of this the DCT at my program and those at friends programs started having regular discussions about being realistic about our options for internship, postdoc, and beyond if there was anything in our backgrounds. When I got to internship season I applied to one of the federal prisons and that required a meeting with my DCT where she straight up asked me if there was anything in my background that could cause a problem. There's nothing, but the inquiry didn't surprise me. There's probably an impact to accreditation stats if someone has their match offer pulled so again good for you figuring this out in advance.

 

[WisNeuro]

My state is one of many that uses the Federal background checks, so they'd see that. My first piece of advice would be to contact the state boards of a couple of the states that you could envision yourself being licensed in, carefully craft a statement explaining the situation, and ask about whether licensure is possible, assuming no further legal issues.

 

[Grenth]

I should have been clearer that the stimulants are legally prescribed and the sex work is actually legal, being online and all that. But I appreciate you giving me the full picture regardless. I’m in one of the most leftist states that has a lot of social justice initiatives especially within the schools around so maybe I’ll be ok with an LPC but you’re right, I need to call a lawyer within this state and see what they can do for me or at least tell me. It’s hard to reach out for advice to anyone within the school system because I’m afraid of disclosing my work there when I could feasibly dress it up as something else on an application.

The world tells sex workers to stop doing their jobs but when we reach for anything else, inevitably our hands are always slapped away. I knew but thank you for confirming. I appreciate you taking the time.

I think you're in better shape in that case and I definitely wouldn't say I confirmed anything. In fact I think you have a fighting chance it's just going to require a lot of hard work and a clear sense of potential limitations (internships/license states with federal background checks). I hope you're able to accomplish your goals! I'd agree with others that contacting licensing boards is a smart move.

If you haven't looked already there's a bunch of similar old threads here that show it's very much a case by case thing. Here's a good example

VA internship with criminal record

Question for those of you affiliated with VA sites...I have a friend (not on SDN) who is currently in a clinical psych grad program who is thinking toward applying to internship. She has a record from both fraud and drug convictions which were well over 10 years ago at this point. She has...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[ClinicalABA]

... I’m in one of the most leftist states that has a lot of social justice initiatives especially within the schools around so maybe I’ll be ok with an LPC...

It may seem counterintuitive, but liberal states can have very conservative licensure laws. Protecting the citizens from harm is at the heart of most licensure laws, and prioritizing the needs of the many over the needs of the few is a more liberal ideology.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

It may seem counterintuitive, but liberal states can have very conservative licensure laws. Protecting the citizens from harm is at the heart of most licensure laws, and prioritizing the needs of the many over the needs of the few is a more liberal ideology.

This. I was first licensed in a DEEP south conservative red state. It was an absolute joke getting licensed, legit didnt take much at all and the office itself was a hot mess (like Jimmy McGill's office early on in Better Call Saul). The more progressive state i got licensed in....way more patient/public focused.

 

[PsyDuck90]

On the background check side: I don’t know if this is the norm, but when I got accepted into my program at a state university in the northeast, the acceptance was contingent upon a clean background check (I think they wanted to make sure they weren’t admitting folks who would be ineligible to be licensed). I also did practicums in several large AMCs, which all required their own background checks during the onboarding process. OP, I echo another poster’s suggestion of speaking with your attorney about these issues. The last thing you want is to spend all this time and effort and money on applications only to find that you’ll be ineligible. In the mean time, the suggestion of getting more involved in clinical research and maybe enrolling in a research masters program as others have suggested can be a good way to beef up your CV and also ensure you actually enjoy that aspect of psychology.

 

[tr]

Here's the thing: I want a PhD. In psychology, not counseling. I don't want to be a midlevel, I've railed against them in medicine for years, I don't wanna be one. I want to do research, or at least be immersed in it, before I get anywhere near a client. Maybe I'll only want to do research. Even if I go clinical, I want to serve people with real, EB solutions and 2 years doesn't seem like nearly enough time to qualify anyone to be inside someone else's head.

I have no idea about psychology PhDs but if you are interested in research, FWIW we had someone in my (brand-name) neuroscience PhD program who had been a practicing neurosurgeon but lost his medical license due to a substance use issue and decided to retool into a research career. I think the legal barriers may be lower in programs that don't lead to clinical responsibilities towards other human beings.

 

[deleted1129370]

I will echo much of what has been stated by others - get some basic research experience under your belt, try to get on a few conference abstracts and see if the foundational science is something you can like, tolerate, etc. Like Wise mentioned, I would also touch base with the state(s) you would ideally see yourself getting licensed to see if your legal background is a dealbreaker or not. Also, if you'd like, I am happy to chat with you privately about the Psy.D. route (this topic tends to be brought up and then beaten like a dead horse, so I'd rather not do that).

It sounds like you really want to craft a new life for yourself while also doing the best you can do. We all make mistakes (myself included). I have worked with excellent psychologists who themselves had an extensive history of substance use challenges and work both inside and outside the federal government. As for the sex work stuff, good for you! I think people are allowed to be themselves, especially if it's in a jurisdiction that has legalized it. I think what you do in your own time is yours.

 

[Ollie123]

Non-clinical degrees are often quite a bit more flexible, but even within clinical there is some precedence. That said, it is a very competitive field and to be competitive for admission you are likely looking at a 2-3 year road back in. If you're willing to do the legwork (still with no guarantees) I think it is <possible>. If you are not, I'd look to easier paths. And that isn't a value judgment on "willing to do the legwork" - it really is a tough decision and it is absolutely not right for everyone.

Non-clinical degrees will have fewer barriers (but not zero). One of the more "out" examples I've seen - I'm sure there are plenty more who do not publicize their history - but see: Noel Vest | SPH

 

[Sanman]

A few thoughts:

1. There is a lot of info in the OP, but I don't see anything mentioned about exactly what you plan to do with your degree (or would like to)

2. As others mentioned, research degrees may be more lenient as they are less competitive and not as governed by state and federal laws as health service provider subfield. Likewise, substance abuse treatment providers sometimes have a history of substance use (and possibly legal troubles). This may be something to look into if it aligns with you interests. Definitely speak with an emoyment attorney and state boards before spending time and money.

3. Dreams are a good thing. However, given your history of extralegal pharmaceutical sales and current online small business pursuits, I have to ask if your financial situation can withstand up to 7 years of minimal income. Your current business may not be illegal, but may breach the ethical standards of less understanding programs or professors. If not, I would consider a midlevel program despite your lack of enthusiasm about their rigor, if only to supply you with a decent legal income while working toward a PhD later on. We all have to eat and this profession is not partularly understanding of problems of that afflict the lower portion of the SES scale. Most of the people judging you will be upper middle class white women, statistically speaking.

 

[PsyDr]

Point Of Order: those posters are SDN 2.1, at best. I’m not even OG. Sanman was passing out Werthers originals out of his cardigan before we came around.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

Point Of Order: those posters are SDN 2.1, at best. I’m not even OG. Sanman was passing out Werthers originals out of his cardigan before we came around.

So his profile pic checks out, eh?

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

I also echo the advice to at least consider non-licensure-oriented options for the PhD. There are fewer barriers (since achieving licensure is a non-issue), and they tend to be less competitive (with some exceptions...social psych PhD programs are weirdly competitive). Having a PhD in, say, cognitive psych or experimental psych would not only not disqualify you from producing clinically-meaningful research and even interacting with clinical samples in the research context, but it would actually make you a valuable asset for academic medical centers/research institutes with a particular skill set in research and/or cognitive neuroscience.

If your heart is set on clinical/counseling psychology (yes, counseling psychology is different from just "counseling"), you can ignore this altogether, but it's worth thinking over.

Best of luck!

 

[Sanman]

Point Of Order: those posters are SDN 2.1, at best. I’m not even OG. Sanman was passing out Werthers originals out of his cardigan before we came around.

 

[WisNeuro]

@Sanman was here when it was still an AOL chat room. He used to search for things on Netscape.

 

[Sanman]

@Sanman was here when it was still an AOL chat room. He used to search for things on Netscape.

I miss Netscape Navigator. That was a great web browser that did not try to profit from your very existence and sell you something at every turn.