I thought I would throw this out there.....

[JoeTee]

Hello fellow sufferers....

I too am walking down the IMG path with my eyes wide open.....I thought I could share some info with the rest of you as I have actually visited with the schools I had an interest in.....

Let me preface all of this by saying this is my useless, worthless opinion, nothing more, nothing less....

Some background on me...I am 32.....2.9 GPA (from ten years ago)I went back to school....3.8 Post-Bacc, 26 MCAT..... (Verbal 9, Bio 9, Phys Sci 8).....almost all of the allopathics schools rejected me immediately, as I am getting no younger, I decided why wait until 2001, let's get this ball rolling now.

I looked at Saba, St. George's, Ross, AUC,Royal College in Ireland and Guadalajara.....

One more preface.....Know this. You have to think going into this that you are going to perform well on the USMLE, otherwise securing both clerkships and residencies is going to be extremely difficult.

With that being said, I looked at strength of clinical experiences being a priority for me as I evaluated programs.

Obviously St. George's provides an education on par with most US allopathic programs. They have a strong reputation and getting into their school is competitive. Drawbacks for me (Only me here) was cost.

Royal College.....I loved it. Great school, great rep....BUT......program length was a turn off.....5 years for international students.....I want to do clerkships state side.

Saba surprised me. I liked their openness and the access they provide. They shot up my list simply because they did not try and sell me a bill of goods. Small school, reasonable cost, and friendly staff.

AUC.....Been around a long time, and also carries a decent rep. Drawback here was the size of the incoming classes. Too big for me, and made me think securing a clerkship would be tough.

Ross....Program good, but the least attractive campus for me.

Mexico.....Sorry, but I am too old to learn a new language, and just to interview they asked for 2 grand up front. It made me reevaluate.

It took me six months to visit, ask questions and learn what was important to me.....I strongly suggest if you can afford to, visit the school that you are most interested in.

I ended up ranking the programs this way.....
1. Royal
2. St. George's
3. Saba
4. AUC
5. Ross
6. Guadalajara

However, when cost was a factor, I decided on Saba, and I am off to their island in May to begin classes.

If anyone wants specific info, please feel free to email me.

Best of luck....

JT

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[Future DOc]

How about Osteopathic medicine? Why didn't you give it a shot? You would have had BETTER & MORE opportunities as far as residencies & clerkships compared to an IMG... PLUS you remain in the mainland with your family close by. Are you from the states?

With your background, I believe you would have had a shot in osteopathic medicine OR are you just that concerned about the letters after your name. IF you are, I am sorry to say but thats really foolish! Anyhow, more power to you in what you have decided to do..lets just hope it doesn't back fire on you in the future. Good luck in Saba!!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP MS II

[This message has been edited by Future DOc (edited 03-05-2000).]

 

[JoeTee]

Good question...why did I not chose the osteopathic route?

A few reasons......

One, the state I reside in (Pennsylvania)requires DO's to complete an osteopathic internship in addition to residency training for unrestricted licensure. That one year would not apply for any advance standing should I enter into an allopathic residency. I am interested in Emergency Medicine....and with my age (32) an additional year was a turn off for me.

Secondly....in a "informal" poll listed in the Pennsylvania Osteopathic Medicine Newsletter, Ob/Gyn residency directors were asked to rate their preference between IMG's and DO's. Surprisingly the numbers were in favor of the IMG's when only St. George's, Ross, and AUC were considered. This does not mean that IMG's are better, but there is still a bias against DO's that does exist with some of the MD's in positions of power.

Thirdly. This is most important. Clinicals. Speaking only from what I learned, I looked at both of the osteopathic programs in my home state, LECOM and PCOM. The clinical experience of these studets was certainly no better than those of St. George's and Saba. In fact, with PCOM's large class (250 students) clerks were being relegated to places like Suburban General in Norristown, PA....a hospital that is certainly no where near the quality of the Green Book programs I can clerk at while a student at Saba. In fact, with so many hospitals existing in Philadelphia, PCOM students face an obvious numbers crunch in securing clerkships. LECOM has had nightmares in finding secure locations for their clerks to complete their core rotations as well.

To further this....one of Saba's strongest clinical sites is St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City.....a very strong urban teaching facility that does not have an existing agreement with Kansas City's DO program. UHS-COM (Kansas City) instead places their students in smaller hospitals with a smaller range of pathology.

Again...this is just what I was able to learn....nothing more, and nothing less.

The bottom line was this...I could get just as good a clinical experience at Saba for a fraction of the cost of PCOM or UHS-COM. All the while saving a year of training.

 

[Future DOc]

Good reasoning...again more power to you for deciding to attend SABA. Ofcourse, anything in life doesn't have any guarantees.

My point is that by choosing to go IMG before even trying DO just sets up MORE unnecessary hurdles to jump over to fulfill your dream, which is to become an ER doc.

Being from Penn, you are living in one of the BIGGEST DO states in the country with a plethora of AOA & AMA ER residencies to choose from....hence more chances of securing a slot if you chose DO even more so than a US MD.

The decision to jump abroad has NO guarantees. Just be careful & I hope you succeed in all the numerous hurdles set forth by going IMG.

Remember that there are a certain percentage of IMGs that do return to the states for residency. However, there is also a HUGE percentage that don't. I pray you are not in the latter.

Only my opinion & many othersas well, but you should have exausted all opportunities in US medical programs(MD or DO) before jumping abroad. Nonetheless, good luck once again!!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP


[This message has been edited by Future DOc (edited 03-06-2000).]

 

[prefontaine]

The Caribbean route is a well worn path and one that I would not hesitate to recommend. In hindsight, I would have preferred shaving off a year or two by going offshore. Several of my premed friends are a year or two ahead of me in residency by skipping the MCAT and heading to Dominica and Montserrat (now in St Maarten). The Carib grads are attaining the same quality ACGME positions as DOs and the education appears comparable (minus the OMT, of course).

 

[srose]

I really appreciate the input because, I am going to be applying to some foreign schools pretty soon and it is interesting hearing your run-down. As far as AUC...what was the size of the class? I am most interested in AUC, although, I am not sold. Small classes are a benefit for me. What is the class size at SABA?
Did they hold interviews? Thanks for your input. Good luck at Saba...who knows, maybe I will see you there in a year or so.

srose

 

[srose]

Joetee,
I also have another question for you...about your travel. When you flew down to visit AUC, where did you fly in to? And did you make a connection flight in Miami, or elsewhere? I am curious about visiting and want to check out airfare, however, I am finding it difficult to pinpoint the route. Any input on how you did this would be great!
Thanks,
srose

 

[bluesky25]

What foreign schools do NOT require the MCAT?

 

[argonx]

Alot of carb. schools do not require MCAT. However I would take it anyway. You need to get used to standerized exams (like the USMLE 1), and studying for them. Remeber the main factor that hurts alot of IMG's is the low pass rate for USMLE 1. The only school that comes to mind that requires the MCAT is St. Geog. in granda. But that school is too expensive about 40k a year for 4 years is a major turn off for me.



------------------
There is more joy in giving then there is in recieving.

 

[georgia]

JT

I am seriously considering going to the Carribean to pursue my medical education also, and have a few questions:

what was the class size at AUC for this may? and why did it look difficult to obtain a clerkship?

my undergrad gpa is 3.0, but i only have 2.48scigpa, and a 2.9 chiropractic school gpa. ive been accepted to AUC for May 2000, but heard that St. George's is a pretty good school also. do you think i would have a chance to go to St. G's with a decent MCAT, or is my gpa too low?
what is the island of saba like? does the school have good facilities? do their students match up well when it comes to coming back to US?

Thanks.

GA

[This message has been edited by georgia (edited 03-20-2000).]

 

[arnath_2000]

Please expand the full names and the cities they are located of SABA,ROSS and AUC.
Thank you.

 

[Andre]

ARNATH-2000

AUC: ST MARTIN (DUTCH/FRENCH ISLAND) THE BEST.
ST GEORGES: GRENADA (CLOSE TO VENEZUELA)
ROSS: DOMINICA (VERY POOR ISLAND, HENCE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST)
ANDRE

 

[rtk]

JoeTee;

I feel I must reply to your post stating why you chose caribean over DO to give you some 'insider info'. I'm currently a resident at Univ of MO which uses St. Lukes in KC as one of its primary teaching hospitals. You mention in your post that St. Lukes is one of the top training sites for Saba students... understandable so: it is world-renowned for cardiology (the birth-place of interventional/invasive cardio), nephrology, critical care, CV surgery, etc.

I have worked with Saba students and residents. The students from Saba who go to St. Lukes are usually the 1st or 2nd in their class. They have all been very bright and hard working, as strong as nearly any other students from the US.

Despite the fact that Saba students rotate through all the subspecialties (Medicine, surgery, OB/Gyn, Peds, etc)at St. Lukes, Saba grads have only matched in anesthesia here. I don't understand why (maybe its IMG status), but Saba grads seem to have been 'locked out' of the other specialties. However, there are DO's in every training program offered...

This is just FYI. May help you decide where to go for med school.

 

[JoeTee]

Thanks for the information on Luke's and Saba students....however...

While Saba students have only matched to Anesthesia at Luke's it may be more of a function of what types of programs they have applied to rather than the lack of interest on behalf of St. Luke's.

I can only respond to your post with the most recent match results of Saba.

Every student matched to a US program. Among the more impressive residency appointments....Surgery at Yale, Emergency Medicine at Thomas Jefferson, Internal Medicine at Mayo, Surgery at Bellevue, IM at Baylor, and Peds at Univ of Maryland.

Those results are impressive at no matter what school anyone examines.

My point is this. If a student goes to Saba and performs well, there are few doors closed to them.

That is all I am asking for.

I appreciate the information you provided, and best of luck in your career.

JT

 

[SDN-Jim]

just a reply to keep this post current as all of the medical school postings knocked it down the list

 

[robrose]

Joe,

Ummm ... you should really reconsider applying to PCOM. I don't know where you got your information about PCOM, but you left out some very important information:

1) Clerkships - Yes we do rotate through hospitals like Suburban, but we also rotate though hospitals like:

Einstein - 600 bed/ Level 1 trauma center
Geisinger - Major Trauma Center, and hospital for all of central PA
Lehigh Valley Medicial Center - HUGE hospital, fantastic clinical experience.
MCP
Graduate Hospital
Etc .. etc ..

If you don't want to go to Suburban, you DO NOT have to ... some prefer it because of its location, as we get many applicants from all over the state.

2) If you are interested in Emergency Medicine, the EMED program at PCOM is fantastic. It is dual accredited by the ACGME and the AOA. You get dual certification. It is run out of Einstein Medical center, and you are fast tracked (meaning you rotating internship does count, and by the way that is the way most residencies work)

3) As far as where our gradutates match for residencies, we match everywhere in all disciplines. Including General Surgery, OB/GYN, Internal Medicine, etc etc.. I'm talking about MD residencies, not DO residencies.

Being a PA resident you have an advantage, as it is very competitive to get into PCOM (5000 applications/year). They love older, non-traditional students.

It is becoming harder and harder for IMG's to get residencies in the US. That is the truth.

PCOM is a great school, with a fantastic reputation. Think about it.

Rob

 

[JoeTee]

Rob,

I appreciate your comments regarding PCOM.

However, I stand by what I posted earlier.

At 32, the osteopathic internship is not an attractive requisite for me.

The program you mentioned at Einstein is run by John Kelly D.O. and John Bucher D.O. It is a very good program and it does offer a "fast=track" option, however that is a misnomer. The program is still 4 years in duration, and is considered a "fast-track" simply because it meets the requirements of an osteopathic internship.

The Geisinger Medical Center is an excellent teaching facility in Danville, PA. I know it very very well (My wife is an attending physician on staff there). The Geisinger is actually home to Jefferson. It's primary teaching contract is with Jeff students. PCOM and LECOM students are free to do rotations there, however they are usually electives not filled by Jeff students. Of course, there are exceptions to this. Geisinger further limits the number of weeks a student outside of Jeff can complete there. Currently it is 12 weeks.

Again, it is my opinion should I matriculate to a caribbean school, I would have the same opportunites as any osteopathic student.

I contacted Bob Weilty MD, Chair of Emergency Medicine at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, and if I post a competitve USMLE, I would be welcome to clerk there. What more can I ask for? EM at Hopkins? I'll take it.

I do not wish to imply that the quality of education at PCOM is less than that of an off shore school. I recognize how strong PCOM is. That being said I am also convinced that with some motivation on my part, my education, especially my clinical education can be the equal of most osteopathic programs.

Once again......and the bottom line.....the length of post graduate training required to practice in Pennsylvania for DO's is a significant obstacle to me at my age.

I appreciate your information you provided, and best of luck to you.

Joe

 

[robrose]

Joe:

I know you are not bashing PCOM, believe me I do

You are right, the Emed program at Einstein is four years. Its a great program though.

As far as Geisinger, its actually part of the Penn State/Hershey system. But they are getting "divorced". We have CORE rotations at Geisinger in Internal Medicine, OB/GYN, and General Surgery. These are not electives, but core rotations.

I understand why you want to go to off shore. I was faced with the same decision two years ago. I worked at a major medical center in the Northeast, and had applied once to allopathic schools, and got rejected everywhere. My problem, like yours was my undergraduate GPA (2.92). It didn't matter that my B.S. was in Electrical Engineering, and I have a Masters in Biomedical Engineering (3.8 GPA), and scored a 34 on my MCATs, or the fact that I did tons of research and volunteer work.

When I toyed with the idea of applying offshore I got an application from St. George's. In it was a cover letter saying that what the emphasis of the school was to give you a good solid 2 year pre-clinical education, then they would strongley encourage you to try to transfer to a US school after your second year. They also warned that in recent years their transfer rates have dropped from almost 60% to less than 10%.

I know people who went off shore and had a hard time even securing clerk-ship spots in the US. I know an IM resident at the hospital I worked at who feels his was the last class (St. Georges) that would be really competative for US residencies. I spoke with lots of doctors that I worked with and they didn't seem to react to well about me going off-shore. I'm just relaying my own personal experience. I'm sure there are lots of other stories that are positive.

You just have to be careful. A lot of times the carribean school will tout their match results. You just have to realize that there are two types of residency spots, categorical and preliminary. If you look closely at their results most of them are for preliminary spots. That means they are not guaranteed to finish the program. Only categoricals are guaranteed to finish the program, preliminaries are in limbo, and can spend years in programs and not be able to sit for the boards.

I am sure that schools like St. Georges are fine institutions, and you will get a good education. Just be careful. The climate is changing, and it will become more difficult for IMG's to secure categorical residency positions. My own opinion is that if you are good, it doesn't matter where you gradute from, you will do well.

I wish you all the luck, and please keep us posted as too your progress.

If you have any questions about PCOM please feel free to shoot me some email.

Warmest regards,

Rob
[email protected]

 

[robrose]

I don't want you to think I'm bashing offshore schools. I worked with IMG's and FMG's and they are top notch doctors with solid training.

-Rob

 

[UHS03]

Originally posted by JoeTee:
Rob,
I contacted Bob Weilty MD, Chair of Emergency Medicine at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, and if I post a competitve USMLE, I would be welcome to clerk there. What more can I ask for? EM at Hopkins? I'll take it.

What does it mean "to clerk there"? Is that a residency spot he's talking about or an internship spot? If i t's an internship spot, then your not coming out any quicker than a DO student would.

Again, it is my opinion should I matriculate to a caribbean school, I would have the same opportunites as any osteopathic student.

True, the effort you put in is probably what you'll get out, but you will be limited in residency choices far more than ANY American trained doctor (MD or DO), no matter how much effort you put into it. In addition, the government is cutting back on residency spts offerred to FMG's. In fact, if you really want to talk about who has more opportunities, DO's have more residiency options that anyone because they can choose from the MD and DO programs. I find it commendable that you want to go foreign if it's because you don't agree with the whole DO thing and really want to be an MD. I find it sad if the only reason your going foreign is to slice a year off your training. Medicine is not the career for people in a hurry. Good luck, I hope you get everything that you want.

 

[JoeTee]

UHS03,

To "clerk" means to complete a clerkship at that specific hospital. Very different from either an intership or residency.

While D.O.'s enjoy the benefit of applying to both allopathic and osteopathic post-graduate programs, you may want to take a close look at the number concerning the allopathic match.

This year's most current match had the osteopathic students "unmatched" percentage at approximately 32%.

While I certainly recognize the quality of an osteopathic education, and it is obvious there are D.O.'s that are among the most respected physicians in our country, I still think they also face some discrimination from the "old-school" allopathic physicians in our country.

To the same degree as an IMG? I would think not.

Interestingly enough, this is not a decision I have taken lightly. In fact, I contacted every single EM residency director in the State of Pennsylvania to inquire what they thought of IMG's. Surprisingly, they all offered support and told me this with no b.s. attached to it. It does not matter where I attend medical school. If my board scores are high enough, my choice of medical school will be irrelevant. High board scores, strong clinical experiences, and letters of support attesting to my competency will be the defining characteristics for my success as an applicant.

In a different spin........if I attended a DO school and was ranked in the lower half of my class, with average board scores, my success in gaining an EM residency in the State of Pennsylvania would be suspect. Should I matriculate to a off-shore program, ace my USMLE, and gain support for my application.....I will gain a spot.

Bottom line is this. Irrespective of where I go to school, I must be able to demonstrate high academic performance, doing so will open enough doors for me to achieve my career goals.

Best of luck to you!!

Joe

 

[robrose]

Joe,

You are right, last year the DO's matched at about a 70% rate. At the same time IMG's matched at a 21% rate. DO Match results are going up every year, while IMG match results are going down. I saw the 1999 match statistics book first hand. Just be careful. Also those stats don't take into consideration the DO's that went onto Osteopathic residencies, so I suspect the number is actually higher than published.

And I hate to break it to you, if you rank in the lower half of your class at a DO school, and perform poorly on the boards, you will do the same at an offshore school. You will prolly rank higher in your class, but your board scores will still stink.

We have a pass rate much higher than any offshore school (>90%).

You seem determined to go the IMG route. I wish you luck, but I really think you should try US schools first. I know of lots of people who have spent lots of money on offshore schools, and got nowhere.

Rob

 

[UHS03]

Well, good luck to you Joe. While I don't agree with your reasoning, it is clear you have researched it. If you feel confident that off-shore is the way to go, I wish you luck. I'm sure you'll do fine. You appear to want to go back to Pennsylvania, which is great. What will you do if you are one of the 79% of unmatched IMG's? I'm just curious.

One other thing I wanted to mention. I have heard that if you get licensure as a DO in any of the 45 states that don't require a rotating internship, you can pretty easily gain licensure in the states that do. My impression has been that the strict requirement to do a rotating internship really only applies if your initial licensure is in one of those states. I'm not positive about this, but it's worth checking.

 

[robrose]

Actually in the coming years you really won't need to do the rotating internship. The AOA has finally recognized that there are a shortage of AOA rotating internships, and they passed a resolution that if you get into a ACGME residency, and it meets certain requirements they will sign off on it and count it as your intern year.

Also, most residency programs are accredited by both the ACGME and the AOA and are fast-track. Most of the major hospitals are starting AOA approved rotating internships that also count as your Intern year. I even think Geisinger will soon offer a ACGME/AOA approved Surgical residency program that is fast-tracked through their AOA intern program. Thats what a residency representative said during last years residency fair, but so far I haven't heard any other news.

Some food for thought ...

Too be honest having to do an extra year shouldn't even factor into the equation. A lot of ACGME residency programs love DO's who have that extra year of experience because they can guide the other interns. Guess who takes call first night? The DO with the rotating internship under their belt, because they know they can handle it.

Plus if you are so worried about that extra year why is Royal number one on your list? It is a five year program for international students.

 

[JoeTee]

Robrose...

Before you try and make a point about my mentioning of Royal as my number one foreign school.....you want to try and read the entire post. Let me repeat what I wrote in the original post...."The drawback with Royal was program length" I address that right there for you. I thought, and still do think, Royal offers the best foreign medical school open to US residents, but when you factor things like program length and cost into the equation, you may have to re-evaluate.

Your comment about the internship not being required is not correct, at least according to the Pennsylvania Osteopathic Board of Medicine. No matter what the AOA signs off on, if the state licensing board does not agree.....too bad. That is the case right now.

Last year, the voting block of the AOA passed resolution 721. A resolution that gave each state licensing board the ability to consider a "waiver" of the internship based on previous graduate medical training.

What did this change in Pennsylvania? NOTHING

As far as the internship being a reuirement in the state of Pennsylvania. Those DO students that have not completed a formal osteopathic internship have absolutely no chance of gaining an unrestricted license in the state of Pennsylvania. I called and spoke to the Penn State Board of Osteopathic Medicine themselves (717) 783-4858, and they have affirmed to me in no uncertain terms, that without the internship there will be no license.

There is a way around this, you can complete as Robrose mentioned a fast track program, which only applies to osteopathic training programs. If you meet the requisite clinical training guidelines which are:
One month of Family Practice
Three months of General IM
Three months of surgery
One month of Ob/Gyn
One month of Peds
3 months of electives
you can apply directly to the AOA for a "special circumstances" consideration. In essence, the AOA reviews your residency curriculum, and determines if it meets the guidlines I listed above. If it does, you can re-apply back to the state osteopathic board for unrestricted licensure.

Try this one on though. Last year alone, Pennsylvania received 25 applications from osteopathic physicians who did not formally complete an osteopathic internship but did meet the guideline requirement. Care to guess how many they approved? 3.

My point......No matter how you stretch this, It will take less time for me to go to a foreign school, and complete a 3 year residency program than it would be to go to a US osteopathic medical school, and complete a four year training program.

The worst part for me. If I did go the osteopathic route, and following my requisite internship, entered into a allopathic training program at say the Geisinger or Temple, I would be completing a PGY-1 year all over again. Who wants to do that? I am sorry, but not me. I have no interest in completing two intern years.

As far as getting advanced standing with my osteopathic internship, call Doug Kupas MD, residency program director at the Geisinger, and he will tell you the same thing. No advance standing, you start all over again at year one. No thanks.

I will roll the dice with a foreign school.

It is obvious, we are going to have to agree to disagree........

Best of luck

Joe

 

[UHS03]

Just a note, the decision as to whether or not a program gives PGY1 credit for the osteopathic internship is entirely up to that program. Obviously the program you are interested in does not, but many do. I was serious before though..do you have a contingency plan for if you don't match (I know we are talking 4 years down the road, but I'm curious about what you would do.) Does PA place any special requirements upon FMG's who want to get licensure, or do they just have to pass USMLE?

[This message has been edited by UHS03 (edited 03-27-2000).]

 

[robrose]

Joe,

The resolution I was talking about was just passed a couple days ago. PA requires the completion of an AOA approved rotating internship, if the AOA signs off on a ACGME intern year, then PA has to accept it. The reason behind this is that currently there are not enough intern spots for all DO graduates.

I'm not going to argue with you, you seem to have made up your mind. I wish you luck, and please let us know how you make out!

Take care,

Rob

 

[Taylor DO]

This is an interesting topic, and as an osteopathic physician in Harrisburg, PA. I think I can offer some insight to your questions.

To begin with, there is no single resolution under the AOA that can mandate or dictate unrestricted licensure to any state. The American Osteopathic Association can pass any by-law, any resolution it wants to. However, doing so does not mandate any state to follow its recommendation.

Currently I serve on the council for osteopathic graduate medical education for POMA. There is no move within our state to absolve any current or future osteopathic graduate from entering into an osteopathic internship. There are many reasons for this.

To begin with, the osteopathic intern is a cheap source of good labor. Hospitals depend on that. The osteopathic hospitals in the state of Pennsylvania, as well as the small community hospitals that have internship programs could not nor will not survive without osteopathic intern physicians.

The medical and hospital lobby is strong enough in Pennsylvania to make sure that does not happen.

With all of this to consider, if you are not 100% certain that osteopathic medicine and its requisite internship are not for you, by all means do what you think is best for you. I salute JoeTee for his efforts in researching this and making an educated decision. Not many people do that these days.

As far as the IMG route is concerned, I will guarantee that regardless of the propaganda being written in Washington, residency slots in allopathic programs will not be reduced any time soon. Again, for this reason. Money. Inner city hospitals could not survive if it were not for the efforts of the IMG resident physician. They provide a resource that will never be taken away. If they remove IMG's from inner city programs and the hospital closes, what congressman will allow that to happen in their district? None.

Moreover, in last month's AMA Academic Medicine Profile, Gilbsurg et al estimated the cost of reducing the number of residency positions in the US. It would cause health care in urban facilities to rise almost 65%. That will not be tolerated.

Imagine the cost of hiring an attending physician to take call on a Saturday night in an urban hospital? You can not calculate numbers that high without an adding machine and a very good CPA.

Joe you are correct. If you score well enough on your board exams, you will not have any difficulty in gaining a training spot. I wish you well son, do what is in your heart.

One last item to address. No program can give you advance standing credit at their discretion. With respect to Emergency Medicine, program directors follow the academic guideline set forth by their boarding specialty. The ACEP determines what is considered to be credit worthy.

I am off, I wish you all well, and I enjoyed the professional and respectful dialogue in your ongoing discussion.

B. Taylor DO

 

[UHS03]

I appreciate your comments, doctor. With regard to the decision as to whether or not to allow credit for PGY1 after an osteopathic internship, are you saying that even the allopathic programs cannot accept you as a second year resident after the completion of a rotating osteopathic internship? I was always under the impression that they had this choice and some do while others do not. I appreciate you sheding some light on this issue. The topic of the rotating osteopathic internship and what effect entering directly into a categorical allopathic residency will have on new osteopathic physicians is a source of confusion for many students, including me. Thank you again.

 

[Taylor DO]

UHS03,

I will try and answer your question through example.

Let us consider an allopathic Internal Medicine Program.

More, Let us say it is a medium size program with 7 slots each year for an IM program three years in length.

That is a total of 21 residents in this program.

No Allopathic Program can admit you as a PGY-2 simply because they are at their allotment of 7 from the previous class. Where would they put you? The program is rigidly budgeted, and accredited. Where would they put an osteopathic intern?

The only place is back at the PGY-1 level. Of course you can apply for spots that have become available through attrition, but those programs may not be your first choice.

Concerning osteopathic programs that is a different story, you can enter with some credit from your internship.

B Taylor DO

 

[unsure]

JoeTee, I find your personal reasons for going offshore interesting. However, the extra year of intership by going DO doesn't seem as much of an inconvienece as leaving a spouse for at least 2 years and most likely 4 depending on where you do clerkships. At least if you went to PCOM, NYCOM, or LECOM you could see each others on weekends. Just curious how your wife feels about this.

 

[RollTide]

Taylor DO,

Have you read the new AOA resolutions? I fear that your statements might be incorrect. For the class of 2001, there will be 700 fewer osteopathic internships than graduating students. The AOA does not think that funding will be available in the near future to create enough internships for all graduates. The AOA is currently working with the ACGME to alot transitional year slots for osteopathic graduates instead of osteopathic internships because they serve the same purpose and many are going unfilled. The AOA is also going to allow students for the next six years to use other ACGME training to meet the osteopathic internship requirement with as long as they pursue CME in OPP/OMM. How can you say that PA would not accept this as the osteopathic internship if the AOA says it is equivalent to the internship and plans on using it as internships for students?

 

[Epi35]

Joe,

What school will you be attending? Do you start in the fall?

Best of luck wherever you decide.
Steven

 

[cool runnings]

did you check out the IUHS medical school in St.Kitts?

My friend told me there's one there. I hard a lot about the one in SABA and St. Martin

 

[Andre]

Hello Cool Runnings:
For anyone: after trying hard to enter US med schools, if one is still determined to be a doctor,
then the established Caribbean schools offer a good alternative.
I personally recommend St Georges first, followed close by AUC (St Martin).
Way down my list is the UAG&Ross for those with masochistic tendencies.. Last choice is Saba.
Any other school is UNPROVEN; hence should be AVOIDED.
My own wife just completed MS-2 at AUC, and she is soon starting clinicals in USA.
I have no doubt that she will get a good residency.
Good luck to you all..
Andre

 

[dlbruch]

Andre- Several people have written responses to your posts on the "Am I missing something" thread. I've been anxiously awaiting your response!

 

[UHS03]

He's a recruiter and bolts as soon as anyone mentions it. It's like clockwork.

 

[Besyonek]

Originally posted by UHS03:
He's a recruiter and bolts as soon as anyone mentions it. It's like clockwork.

yes, check out his heated defense of IMGs on the thread "what next"

I think his wife (if she actually exists) gets tuition discounts for every student he recruits

 

[Andre]

dlbruch + UHS03 + Besyonek:

You are ALL acting extremely immature.
You don't know me, and I don't care for you juveniles.
Didn't your momma spank you enough and tell you NOT to talk about people that you don't know??
I am excited about my wife finally becoming an MS-3, and grateful that a Caribbean school gave her that chance.
You are all lucky, US med students;
WHAT is YOUR BUSINESS in this IMG forum?
To boost your fragile egos??
I will answer any questions that you may have on IMG issues.
I am just a working-class husband of a 2nd class Med student (read: IMG)
My understanding of Compassion comes with HUMILITY, and being exposed to poor, 3rd world living conditions as all Caribbean grads do!! Hence, I believe, more Carib students become compassionate FAMILY doctors, while high achievers like yourselves run after top-paying specialities.
I never said Carib schools are better than US, just said that my favorite 3, AUC, StG and Ross has comparable education.. comparable to average US schools. IVY leagues are irrelevant, they only belong to you high achievers (or those of you with right connections)
Please act like grown ups, not a bunch of kids in a feeding frenzy.
Andre Gurses, MS, MBA, PE
[email protected]

 

[Besyonek]

Originally posted by Andre:
dlbruch + UHS03 + Besyonek:

"You are ALL acting extremely immature.
You don't know me, and I don't care for you juveniles."

I really don't care what your opinion is of me. I do care when you make ridiculous assertions about IMGs being "more compassionate" than US med students.

"WHAT is YOUR BUSINESS in this IMG forum?"

This is an open board. You certainly aren't shy about suggesting carib schools to just about every pre-med who posts on any thread here.

"My understanding of Compassion comes with HUMILITY, and being exposed to poor, 3rd world living conditions as all Caribbean grads do!!"

As you are apparently unaware, third-world living conditions exist here in the US; the teaching hospital at my school sees very extreme and tragic cases of illness and injury wrought by poverty, ignorance and lack of access to basic healthcare.

"Hence, I believe, more Carib students become compassionate FAMILY doctors, while high achievers like yourselves run after top-paying specialities."

The truth is that carib students are where they are because they could not get into a US MD/DO program, or because they were unwilling to spend an extra year or two strengthening their application. They are NOT at these schools because they had a burning desire to learn in a third-world atmosphere. Most will become FP because that is just about the only kind of residency program open to IMGs. I'm sure that plenty of these students would jump at the chance to match for surgery, ENT or derm if they could. You are deluding yourself if you think that all US grads want to go into subspecialties (I plan on becoming an FP myself), but I guess it's easier to believe this fiction that all the US students are cold, greedy heartless types and the carib students are the future Albert Schweitzers, rather than accept the distinction I noted above.

I have no doubt that your wife would have gone to a US program if she had the opportunity. The fact that so many IMGs try to transfer out suggests that, at the minimum, they are either not happy with their education or they want to escape the stigma of getting a diploma from a carib school.




[This message has been edited by Besyonek (edited 03-30-2000).]

 

[Spang]

I think there's too much flaming on this board and people, in general, are too quick to jump new posters. That said, I went back and read the "MCAT worries" thread and would also be interested in hearing Andre clarify his "32-35" MCAT comment. Also, Andre, you could set this to rest my denying that you are a recruiter or receive any kind of compensation from foreign medical schools. Or don't, that's obviously your right.

Spang

 

[sabadtb]

Good choice. I am a 3rd year Saba student. You will do fine, if you work hard and prove yourself during clinicals, you can do anything.

 

[robrose]

I was wrong about the match statistics for IMG's.

the 2000 match had the following info:

Osteopathic: 71.6%
IMG (US Citizen): 51%

The US IMG match rate was higher than I originally thought.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[stephew]

Good luck Joe; I think Saba will probably treat you well; they placed very well this year. I would suggest to others in the process of applying however not to consider cost too much. Youll be in debt no matter what. All things being equal, fine, consider cost, but otherwise... For IMGs, WHERE you go makes a huge difference; And there are hidden factors; Several carib schools will boast of a high USMLE board pass rate. You can scrutinize the numbers and hey they look good. BUt... what they dont tell you is that of the, say 200 kids entering, only 50% were allowed (ie sponsored by the school) to sit the exam because grades/internal examination indicated they wouldnt pass. So that "97%" pass rate takes on a whole new meaning. I graduated frmo sgu; I can tell you that 90% of students take the USMLE in a timely (ie with the rest of the class) way and the pass rate for us citizens is about 94 or 95% (I forget which). So its 94% of that 90%. Check this out with Ross, SABA, AUC -ask what percentage sit the USMLE on time. As for RCS in Ireland, EXCELLENT place in an excellent area (center of Dublin, baby) as is University College of Dublin.
All the best, Joe
Steph

 

[PB]

Stephew,
what do you think the requirements are to get into RCS in Dublin? I've heard that it's pretty tough. Hope to hear from you soon.
PB

 

[stephew]

Hi PB. My husband used to teach at Uni College of Dublin. He knows the RCS guys so ill ask him. I belive that a good portion of RCS is foreign (ie non-Irish); medical education is free to all Irish citizens so they make their money this way. Many are arab students. At any rate its a good school and Ill find out what i can.
Steph