"I want the anesthesia doctor in the room the whole time"

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inmyslumber

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This is what my patient said today.

Since I am at an academic hospital with residents, CRNAs ...and SNAs (comment withheld), I am not always able to accommodate this type of request. However, today I was able to arrange the schedule to be in the OR and did so gladly! This was a very reasonable and educated patient who stated that s/he did not want a nurse giving anesthesia.

I wish more patients were this informed. Made my day.

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If every patient knew the difference between CRNA and MD, and made this request every time, the CRNAs would have no leg to stand on.
 
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True. But >99% of patients don't know or don't care.
 
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If every patient knew the difference between CRNA and MD, and made this request every time, the CRNAs would have no leg to stand on.

If this was the case literally half of the ORs in the U.S. would grind to a halt. The public outcry would be deafening.
 
If the public knew about all the crisis situations where we have to bail out the CRNAs, they would never be allowed to practice independently anywhere. They are counting on the fact that we will not tell the patient, to avoid being sued ourselves.

And this is why I hate working with midlevels I cannot pick or fire (at least indirectly).
 
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If the public knew about all the crisis situations where we have to bail out the CRNAs, they would never be allowed to practice independently anywhere. They are counting on the fact that we will not tell the patient, to avoid being sued ourselves.
Considering the absolute nonsense that the patients can aggressively complain about, if they knew how to read the records, assuming the electronic chart is keeping the crnas honest, they would probably be horrified of some of the near miss type mismanagement that is all too routine. We don't staff more than 1:2 and you bet your ass I know what's going on in my rooms. From the door, through the window, in the OR where I'm working on other things, remotely monitoring, I know. My favorite call style is remote video and vitals monitoring. The residents and/or fellows get to practice with some independence, but it's like I'm standing in the room.
 
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One cannot continuously monitor 3 endoscopy suites (or similarly fast procedures, such as hysteroscopies or cataract surgeries), and preop patients at the same time.
 
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Considering the absolute nonsense that the patients can aggressively complain about, if they knew how to read the records, assuming the electronic chart is keeping the crnas honest, they would probably be horrified of some of the near miss type mismanagement that is all too routine. We don't staff more than 1:2 and you bet your ass I know what's going on in my rooms. From the door, through the window, in the OR where I'm working on other things, remotely monitoring, I know. My favorite call style is remote video and vitals monitoring. The residents and/or fellows get to practice with some independence, but it's like I'm standing in the room.

Unfortunately many practicing anesthesiologists are not so lucky as to have this arrangement.

For what it's worth I've also seen remote intensive care monitoring with some doc sitting in a box somewhere while I got called to put the line in, put the tube in, save the patient from a catastrophe, etc. This form of "medicine" is equally and horifically dangerous in my opinion.
 
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We don't staff more than 1:2 and you bet your ass I know what's going on in my rooms. From the door, through the window, in the OR where I'm working on other things, remotely monitoring, I know. My favorite call style is remote video and vitals monitoring. The residents and/or fellows get to practice with some independence, but it's like I'm standing in the room.
Dude, you are academic peds. You have the least of our problems (for now).
 
If every patient knew the difference between CRNA and MD, and made this request every time, the CRNAs would have no leg to stand on.

Heck, even if they made it 10% of the time, the current state of affairs in most hospitals would no longer be sustainable.
 
BTW, I was about to say "that was me!", but there's a gap of a couple months to be accounted for....
 
Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. All I am saying is that I don't believe in true medical direction when coverage is above 1:2. I would rather have independent CRNAs harming patients on their own, than 1:3+ coverage, with CRNAs doing the harm on my watch.
 
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Personally, I'm going to ask for the med student who is on anesthesia.. that way, the attending will be there the whole time
 
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my daughter had to be put under for a procedure two years ago...I made a demand that only the actual anesthesiologist touch her...no CRNA
 
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my daughter had to be put under for a procedure two years ago...I made a demand that only the actual anesthesiologist touch her...no CRNA

Are you at a teaching hospital? Were there possibly students involved?

I'll say, as a former student, and a current MD, I feel grateful for the children's airways I was able to intubate.

Absolutely, when its your kid, you want the guy who will do it first try.

I would too.

That being said.

I, personally, would not be so picky. I would like to be in the room. Make sure the pediatric anesthesiologist is in the room. I would let the intern attempt to intubate my hypothetical kid.

I will update this thread when I actually have kids.
 
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I, personally, would not be so picky. I would like to be in the room. Make sure the pediatric anesthesiologist is in the room. I would let the intern attempt to intubate my hypothetical kid.
.

this is hypocrisy. i rarely let parents in the room for induction, and never for intubation or any other portion of the anesthetic. most family members in medicine expect this and get it.
 
this is hypocrisy. i rarely let parents in the room for induction, and never for intubation or any other portion of the anesthetic. most family members in medicine expect this and get it.

I guess it depends on the hospital. You're absolutely right, the parents usually aren't there for intubation at my institution. Not sure why I should be anything other..
 
During residency, it was actually quite common for nurses (RNs and CRNAs) to demand either an attending or senior resident. They specifically asked to not have a CRNA involved in their case. Granted, these were all bigger cases which CRNAs at my institution were not allowed to do any ways but I always thought it was interesting that they would make these requests. For VIPs, potential donors, etc, they were all done by the chief of the division along with either a chief resident or a fellow. For professional athletes, celebrities and heads of state, we would do these cases on the weekends or after hours with a separate anesthesia team not part of the call pool. They would be done by the chief of the division along with the chief resident but the attending never left the room. For the most part, if patients requested MD only anesthesia, we would accommodate them by either doing the case on the weekend or after hours.
 
At the Congressional NFL United Nations NBA Hospital, what you hadn't heard of it before?
 
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Heads of state/athletes? Where do you work??

I was an intern at the hospital formerly known as the National Naval Medical Center.

They didn't let me take care of the President or any Senators during my 4 week anesthesia rotation though. I don't think any of the residents or SRNAs were booked for those cases either ...
 
I was an intern at the hospital formerly known as the National Naval Medical Center.

They didn't let me take care of the President or any Senators during my 4 week anesthesia rotation though. I don't think any of the residents or SRNAs were booked for those cases either ...
It's because the attendings were intimidated by your medical prowess and didn't want you to make them look bad in front of POTUS. Right? RIGHT?!?
 
I was an intern at the hospital formerly known as the National Naval Medical Center.

They didn't let me take care of the President or any Senators during my 4 week anesthesia rotation though. I don't think any of the residents or SRNAs were booked for those cases either ...

Residents did some of those cases (not the president, obviously). I avoided those patients like the plague.
 
Very wise. If everything goes well, you get a handshake, tops. If anything goes less than well, you are stigmatized.
 
I work in an area with a highly educated patient population, so it is not uncommon to get requests like this. We always accommodate. We just stay flexible and move things around so a solo attending is in the room.
 
This is what my patient said today.

Since I am at an academic hospital with residents, CRNAs ...and SNAs (comment withheld), I am not always able to accommodate this type of request. However, today I was able to arrange the schedule to be in the OR and did so gladly! This was a very reasonable and educated patient who stated that s/he did not want a nurse giving anesthesia.

I wish more patients were this informed. Made my day.
:biglove::highfive:
 
For the most part, if patients requested MD only anesthesia, we would accommodate them by either doing the case on the weekend or after hours.

And the surgeons were ok with that?
 
During residency, it was actually quite common for nurses (RNs and CRNAs) to demand either an attending or senior resident. They specifically asked to not have a CRNA involved in their case.

Not been my experience at all. In fact I've found that a lot of requests (and that's what they are, not demands) go to the CRNAs. You know why? Because people generally have no clue what we do, even the circulator in the room who watches you day in and day out. They just know whether you are "nice" or not. And that's what a lot of this comes down to. Being nice. You can be a complete assassin but if you're nice you get a pass.
 
In my experience, CRNAs choose certain CRNAs, and certain MDs to direct, never residents. Many surgeons will ask for MD-only, no CRNAs, no residents. OR nurses ask for CRNAs they know, non-OR nurses will prefer MD-only, even with residents.
BuzzPhreed said:
You can be a complete assassin but if you're nice you get a pass.
Truer words have never been spoken, but they apply not only to residents, but to all anesthesia "providers", including attendings. That's why we have all those less-competent and lazy people, who are experts mainly at schmoozing and brown-nosing, but who are well-regarded by everybody. The bigger the place, the higher their proportion. If a non-favorite makes a mistake, they blow it out of proportion, and the entire OR will know by the end of the day. If one of the favorites makes a much bigger mistake, nobody wants to notice. It's not about what you know, it's about who you know (and how much they like you).

The reason for this is that all non-anesthesia personnel have zero idea about the technical merit of what we are doing; all they can figure out is the artistic impression. Surgeons get a big part of their "information" about anesthesiologists from their scrub techs and circulators. Very few of them are knowledgeable/experienced enough to be able to appreciate the difference a smart anesthesiologist makes, and only after they worked with us a number of times.

That's why the truly clever anesthesiologists go into a subspecialty where being nice is not enough, and one actually needs a brain.
 
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Heck, even if they made it 10% of the time, the current state of affairs in most hospitals would no longer be sustainable.
17 states allow CRNA to practice independently already...
 
That doesn't mean it happens 100% of the time in these states. Far from it.

The nurses union is way too strong... why don't physicians have that kind of union? *Disappointed*
 
The nurses union is way too strong... why don't physicians have that kind of union? *Disappointed*

They are way too busy saving lives and preparing for the next re-re-licensing cycle.

(At least, that's the lie I want to believe.)
 
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The nurses union is way too strong... why don't physicians have that kind of union? *Disappointed*

Are you serious? Why? Because we can't! But this really has nothing to do with this issue.

(I know you are actually a student and there is a lot to learn moisne. Stick around this forum. You will learn a lot.)
 
Are you serious? Why? Because we can't! But this really has nothing to do with this issue.

(I know you are actually a student and there is a lot to learn moisne. Stick around this forum. You will learn a lot.)
I'm not a student, I'm a teacher :p

No, I would be considered a MS0 if there is such things. I do admit that i know nothing about politics :(.

So you think CRNA will never take over? Not all patients are that informed.
 
Do you think CRNA will never take over? Not all patients are that informed.

No, that wasn't my point. My point was doctors can't unionize.

See my comments on the other thread. I'm ready to cut them loose.
 
Are you serious? Why? Because we can't! But this really has nothing to do with this issue.
Of course we can (unionize), as long as we are employees, and not partners.
Physicians employed by a hospital or healthcare system CAN unionize as long as they are actual employees. Typically, this means being paid a salary reported on a W-2 form. Salaried doctors at public hospitals can also unionize.

This necessary status as an employee excludes supervisors. That detail has been repeatedly used (or abused) by hospital employers who do not want their physician staff to unionize.

The “supervisor” issue was at issue in a Washington State case. There, doctors at 46 primary care clinics voted to be represented by the United Salaried Physicians and Dentists Union. Their employer, Medalia Healthcare, argued to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) that the doctors were “supervisors” because they were clinic administrators or served on management committees. The NLRB sided with the doctors, concluding they could organize. The reason: they did not have authority to hire, fire or make managerial decisions. Under the National Labor Relations Act, these characteristics defined a “supervisor”. This standard has been upheld in subsequent cases, including in Arizona and New York.

Attempts to shoehorn private practitioners as “employees” by arguing “de facto employment” have failed.

In United Food and Commercial Workers v. AmeriHealth Corp, a blue collar union wanted to represent 450 New Jersey physicians in negotiations with their HMO. The union argued the HMO imposed so many conditions on the practice of medicine and on the doctors themselves, that the doctors were reduced to being employees. However, the NLRB agreed with the HMO that since the doctors made independent medical decisions, provided their own facilities and support staff, and could leave the HMO at any time, they were independent contractors and not eligible to unionize.
The entire article is worth reading: http://blog.medicaljustice.com/can-doctors-form-a-union/ .
 
Keep reading. That article also explains why this doesn't happen. Do you personally know any doctor anywhere the U.S. in any specialty who is in a union? Just name one.
 
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As always, there is a huge difference in private practice and academia. I work in an extremely busy, well-run, by-the-TEFRA-rules ACT private practice doing nearly 100,000 procedures a year with nearly 200 MD's, AA's, and CRNA's. 99% of our cases (we don't do hearts or transplants) are done by AA's or CRNA's, all the regional and CVLs are done by the anesthesiologists, and on most days, we run 1:3, with the capability to run 1:1 if needed. It IS possible to keep up with the rooms that are in progress and do other things at the same time, and that is all perfectly legal and allowable under TEFRA. We do it every day. There are a several keys to this - one, hiring quality, knowledgeable, and proficient AA's and CRNA's that are committed to the ACT concept. No cowboys need apply. Two, the docs are going to be working, not sitting in the office - there's plenty for them to do. Many years ago, the single doc drinking coffee in the office while the CRNA's did everything in 15 OR's was not unusual. Not anymore. Those seven rules of TEFRA that specify what the anesthesiologist must do? They do them. And lastly, an understanding with your surgical staff and hospital on how things are done. Every surgeon knows that their surgical cases will be done by anesthetists, with significant anesthesiologist direction and presence on each and every case. A well run, safe, efficient and profitable ACT practice is quite possible but it takes a concerted effort on all fronts to make it work.
 
No offense, jwk. But I seriously doubt you are able to maintain that 100% of the time. The TEFRA requirements are b.s. and damn near impossible to follow especially in a busy OR unless the surgeons are willing to allow it. It's hard to do at 3:1. It's not possible to follow at 4:1 even with staggered starts. This is the wink, wink nudge, nudge that goes on with CMS. If most practices were honestly audited for times they'd be found guilty of fraud. I'm willing to bet on it.

Turn 'em loose.
 
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Not been my experience at all. In fact I've found that a lot of requests (and that's what they are, not demands) go to the CRNAs. You know why? Because people generally have no clue what we do, even the circulator in the room who watches you day in and day out. They just know whether you are "nice" or not. And that's what a lot of this comes down to. Being nice. You can be a complete assassin but if you're nice you get a pass.

Request? I didn't request anything, I told the surgeon my kid would have a doc doing the gas personally or I would get a different surgery center. The surgery center didn't grant my request, they accepted the terms of doing business with me.

Granted my daughter's situation was not an emergency dept trauma and was a scheduled procedure.
 
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I told the surgeon my kid would have a doc doing the gas personally or I would get a different surgery center.

In many places they would simply explain to you why they couldn't do this and would be prepared to let you walk. That's just the reality. Glad you were accommodated.
 
True. But >99% of patients don't know or don't care.

Which is why a well designed ad campaign alerting the public of the difference between anesthesia providers would work wonders for the profession. Until that happens, I will see the ASA as being as bad for the future of the field as the AANA is.
 
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Request? I didn't request anything, I told the surgeon my kid would have a doc doing the gas personally or I would get a different surgery center. The surgery center didn't grant my request, they accepted the terms of doing business with me.

Good for you!

This can be difficult in other settings, however, such as when the patient/family doesn't even know who will be in charge of anesthesia until they walk in the door and introduce themselves as "Bob from anesthesia". Try requesting something at that point... and just see how that goes over.
 
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Good for you!

This can be difficult in other settings, however, such as when the patient/family doesn't even know who will be in charge of anesthesia until they walk in the door and introduce themselves as "Bob from anesthesia". Try requesting something at that point... and just see how that goes over.

I fully agree, if I had sprung that demand on them day of...I'd be messing with their staffing and it would likely be impossible. In an emergency/trauma situation, also likely difficult to impossible. And as I don't know the reimbursements for medicare (I was within my deductible and basically cash pay at the time) it might not be financially feasible for some patients payment models.

But this was scheduled a week in advance and we shopped surgery centers to find someone with experience doing this procedure on young peds.

Speaking from a patient's view here (and admitting my free market view on everything) if MD/DO anesthesiologists don't want CRNAs getting private practice rights everywhere, it would be a good idea to be as flawlessly accommodating as possible when someone actually has the knowledge to ask for doctor only anesthesia.
 
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Speaking from a patient's view here (and admitting my free market view on everything) if MD/DO anesthesiologists don't want CRNAs getting private practice rights everywhere, it would be a good idea to be as flawlessly accommodating as possible when someone actually has the knowledge to ask for doctor only anesthesia.

Thanks for the heads up Mr student :uhno:
 
Thanks for the heads up Mr student :uhno:

I know it's fun to crap on students but this one is on your side. It is counterproductive to your goals of refuting crna independence to also refuse the patients that recognize your superior skills and ask for them.
 
Thanks for the heads up Mr student :uhno:

I love the condescension in your tone. It's almost as if the opinions of students/patients/parents of patients/etc have no value whatsoever.



Have you considered that such opinions are valid... but perhaps they come from point of view you aren't personally acquainted with?
 
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