As a motivation for entering medicine? If there are better ways to make money, what would they be? (DO NOT say law, which is a toilet profession in decline.)
"I want to be upper-middle class." Is this really so offensive?
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It's not, but most people here will tell you it is. There are quite a few ways to make decent money other than medicine, but few of them are as reliable in terms of job security and income, assuming you can get into school. However, I'd advise that going into medicine solely for the financial security is going to make you miserable in a hurry. med school sucks bad enough when you enjoy the material. Trying to grind through it when you only have moderate interest in what you're doing will be hellish.
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Agreed. Aside from making the league minimum in professional sports, There are few professions where your basement earnings are higher than in medicine.
The ceilings for law and business are much higher than medicine but there are plenty of people in those fields making 40-50k.
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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=704991
Check out this thread. It's a recent SDN debate on this same thing.
I don't think it's a bad reason at all, as long as it's not your primary reason. I understand in this economy that money is a very large factor in any career decision, as I think it should be, but as Milkman said, you could very well end up miserable if you just do medicine for the money (this goes for any field, IMHO.)
Check out this thread. It's a recent SDN debate on this same thing.
I don't think it's a bad reason at all, as long as it's not your primary reason. I understand in this economy that money is a very large factor in any career decision, as I think it should be, but as Milkman said, you could very well end up miserable if you just do medicine for the money (this goes for any field, IMHO.)
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It seems like one side will have you believe that if you view medicine as "just a job," you're an evil, money-grubbing miser, while the other will label you a naive dreamer if you see medicine as anything else.
I think it's clear that reality lies somewhere in between. I think the majority of the people who say they would go into the profession if it made an average salary is lying to themselves, as the cost of giving up an extra 7ish years of your life (minimum) getting medical training while your friends are getting on with their lives and NOT going into crippling debt or dealing with the high stress of the field... is simply not a cost you can realistically ignore without SOME monetary compensation. However, without a doubt, medicine is a noble profession, and you do have the privilege of seeing people at their most vulnerable and the satisfaction of making a clear positive impact on their lives that I'm not sure any other profession can boast.
So to argue one side against the other is pointless, as they are both right to a certain extent.
I think it's clear that reality lies somewhere in between. I think the majority of the people who say they would go into the profession if it made an average salary is lying to themselves, as the cost of giving up an extra 7ish years of your life (minimum) getting medical training while your friends are getting on with their lives and NOT going into crippling debt or dealing with the high stress of the field... is simply not a cost you can realistically ignore without SOME monetary compensation. However, without a doubt, medicine is a noble profession, and you do have the privilege of seeing people at their most vulnerable and the satisfaction of making a clear positive impact on their lives that I'm not sure any other profession can boast.
So to argue one side against the other is pointless, as they are both right to a certain extent.
Thank you for your reasonable answers. For my part, I think I can develop a moderate interest in the subject. Just to be incendiary, I'd add that it's my right to choose short-term probable misery for long-term satisfaction, as in the case of people choosing to have children ...
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Well that is assuming you would be satisfied after finishing med school and residency. I see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't call the misery "short term." Four years of med school + 3-7 years of residency where you're dirt poor and overworked is quite a long time to go when you're not all that excited about what you'll be doing once it's all over.
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I don't think that going into medicine is the easiest way to become upper middle class. If you still want to go into the healthcare arena, I'd check out pharmacy. Normal hours + good pay and no residency required. My old roommate's brother just graduated and he's making great money at 25. My mom is also a pharmacist and it has great quality of life. Personally, I can't stand pharmacy but if I just wanted a job in medicine that makes good money, it would be the way I go. My bro is in med school now and he keeps trying to convince me to become a nurse anesthetist instead lol.
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Class isn't just about money. It's about respect. I don't think working at Walgreen's/Wal-mart really gives you all that much, regardless of what you do there.
Drives me nuts when people preach on here about not going into it for the money. EVERYONE is motivated by the money in medicine. In all truthfulness, I'm not motivated to go into medicine because helping people is my passion in life. I'm (hoping to) do it because I have a huge interest in medicine and all that it encompasses, and I can earn a nice living while I'm doing that. Helping people along the way will be a nice feeling, but I'd be lying if I said that was my driving force.
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Lol my mother doesn't have much respect for doctors because she doesn't feel more are doing their job right. She especially despises emergency room docs. She's had to go in a couple of times and basically told the doctor what to do and prescribe her. And these weren't teaching hospitals mind you.
It doesn't matter who respects whom. If I had to pick between a lousy doctor and a great pharmacist, my vote always goes to the latter. If you want my respect, you have to earn it.
Class may not be about money, but it also isn't about where you work. It's about who you are as a professional AND as an individual.
Plus, there is always inpatient pharmacy 👍
anyway, my whole point to the OP was that md/do is not the easiest way to become "upper middle class". I have no problem with people who want to pursue this but it's far too miserable a path to take for monetary reasons.
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I think you are mixing respect amongst professionals and hierarchical class among the general population. I respect pharmacists in that they know all about the drugs that I spend a semester learning and subsequently forget. However the general public doesn't equate the two.
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In my head they are the same, and most people I've met don't say/feel that pharmacists are inferior in either sense. But to each his own. Maybe I just know very strange people 😛
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Again, the general public doesn't really know much about healthcare period and doesn't know the difference between a Pharmacist or a Pharm tech. They just know them as they guy who gives them their pills at Walmart. It really is a shame the decline (similar to optometry) that has been seen with large chain stores.
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Yeah...but neither do they know the difference between the NP or charge nurse in the white coat or the actual doctor. You're right about this lack of awareness , but I don't feel it is so disturbing as you might (at least in the pharmacy context).
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I can speak from experience about retail pharmacy....
most just want their pills and treat you like you are a fastfood worker.
Not to mention if you have to say no to something or if there is an insurance problem with your Medicaid. I am so sorry you did not give me the correct, new insurance card so the general public including myself can pay for you. Instead of thanking me, you are cussing me out because of your stupidity....
retail pharmacy is great...🙄
most just want their pills and treat you like you are a fastfood worker.
Not to mention if you have to say no to something or if there is an insurance problem with your Medicaid. I am so sorry you did not give me the correct, new insurance card so the general public including myself can pay for you. Instead of thanking me, you are cussing me out because of your stupidity....
retail pharmacy is great...🙄
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I hope you have other reasons but it is not wrong to want a comfortable life.
Business can give a nice life but usually requires alot of moving around to get up the corporate ladder.
Other healthcare professions, dentistry, pharmacy, etc.
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Here's a HINT:
Being a lawyer basher is not cool, especially for a doctor. It shows your ignorance about what the vast majority of lawyers really do. They don't chase ambulances. They provide honest representation to people and companies who need help.
It is fashionable to attack lawyers, unless you need one.
Being a lawyer basher is not cool, especially for a doctor. It shows your ignorance about what the vast majority of lawyers really do. They don't chase ambulances. They provide honest representation to people and companies who need help.
It is fashionable to attack lawyers, unless you need one.
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IMHO, if that's your real reason for entering the field, you will want to kill yourself during med school, internship, and residency. But i don't think it's bad to want to be financially stable and comfortable.
Most people are motivated at least a little by the money they make or they wouldn't go to work at all. That goes without saying. If money is your PRIME motivator, you are going to hate your life. Especially because as a doctor, you might not have a whole lot of time to spend that money.
Not caring about how much money I make was a problem for me because I couldn't decide between MD, PA and DPT at first. I realized I would not be happy if I didn't KNOW as much as I possibly could about what I was doing. Now, granted, I would not do any of those jobs if they were causing me to struggle to support myself. So again...money is important, but don't think that it's THE big thing for everyone. I think a lot of people have a sort of money comfort zone, where they don't want to earn anything BELOW a certain dollar sign, but are happy if they aren't earning anything ABOVE it.
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The **** piles up so fast here you need wings to stay above it.
You who are so singularly focused on upper class status and image, you have been blinded by a white collar culture of elitism and self-worth measured by consumption rather than production. You will never achieve satisfaction in your lives. No, you didn't sell your dreams out because you never had any dreams to begin with. Being a doctor is not a means to and end. If your life's work is a means to an end, then your life and your work is irrelevant.
There are those in this who want to achieve and make a difference in the field of medicine. Saying that you only want to become a doctor to have a certain lifestyle and image cheapens the work that we are trying to do.
Everytime I load this site, I am amazed that another one of these threads has popped up and found support, like a bad case of viral warts that just won't go away.
You who are so singularly focused on upper class status and image, you have been blinded by a white collar culture of elitism and self-worth measured by consumption rather than production. You will never achieve satisfaction in your lives. No, you didn't sell your dreams out because you never had any dreams to begin with. Being a doctor is not a means to and end. If your life's work is a means to an end, then your life and your work is irrelevant.
There are those in this who want to achieve and make a difference in the field of medicine. Saying that you only want to become a doctor to have a certain lifestyle and image cheapens the work that we are trying to do.
Everytime I load this site, I am amazed that another one of these threads has popped up and found support, like a bad case of viral warts that just won't go away.
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You are very naive. If you think that you can "develop a moderate interest in the subject," medical school and residency will chew you up and spit you out. You will never survive. No chance.
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I don't see how that's true at all. Being motivated by the financial security doesn't mean you're going to half-ass everything you do, and wanting to save the world doesn't make you a good doctor.
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Wow I really hope you have other reasons. Becoming upper middle class is a reward for hard work and lots of responsibility. I would agree that it is fine for that to be PART of the motivations but certainly only a secondary motivation. My motivation for a high salary is only be to afford to repay the schooling it took to get me to where I want to be.
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Also, I'd say going into business is a better way to make money if that's your only motivation. Most people I know who went into business were making very decent money out of graduation, padded their bank accounts, then got MBAs and are now very, very comfortable. Meanwhile I won't make a nice paycheck until I'm 30, at the very least (and I'll be 300k in debt). So I'd rethink your career choices.
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No one said that most lawyers chase ambulances, the OP just pointed out that the lifestyle for most lawyers is not as good as many people in the general public think.
Due to an ever increasing number of law school, there is a glut of lawyers in this country. Many people think entering law school is a guarantee to an upper-middle class lifestyle, but the stark reality is that there are too many lawyers and not enough jobs, well, at least well paying ones. Even now, going to a top 15 law school is no longer a guarantee to a job seeing as how many firms have cut-back on recruiting. Furthermore, law students, just like other professional students, go into major debt to earn their degree, but lawyers, unlike physicians, do not have the same job opportunities, job security, and relatively high minimum salary that medical students can expect.
The New York Times opinion pages and blogs are filled with story after story of how people have ruined their lives, or at least hampered them for the short term, by attending law school.
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"Going into business." What does that even mean?
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I want to be a doctor, but who on here really believes that being a lawyer or successful businessman is easy? Lawyers have 3 years post-grad which requires intensive reading, and most successful higher ups at banks and other corporations also have more than just a undergrad degree.
Medical school is great, and prestigious and all but it is not the ONLY graduate school that is hard or respect-worthy.
Medical school is great, and prestigious and all but it is not the ONLY graduate school that is hard or respect-worthy.
It is naive and foolish to generalize that lawyers are honest. Many just get payed to persuade successfully, whether it be true or false, in order to defend their client successfully.
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People aren't idiots. The doctor tag next to your name carries quite a bit of weight.
If you are at a free clinic, most people don't care b/c they are just happy to be getting some care. But in a hopistal setting, trust me people are fairly well informed about the differences btwn doctors and everyone else.
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This is definitely not true. Even as a volunteer, I see patients get confused as to who is a physician, who is a nurse, NP, etc. When everyone in the hospital's walking around with white coats on, when DNPs introduce themselves as doctors, etc, it's understandable why that confusion occurs.
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If money is your sole motivation then going into medicine is not the smartest choice. However it's not the stupidest either. Its probably somewhere in the middle. Bottom line is that medicine is a demanding career that is hard to tolerate when you don't like what you are doing. In order to be a good doctor you need to more of a motivation than just money.
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Again I think this is dependent on the hospital and the patient population it serves. In the area that I'm from, people tend to be very educated. They go to a doctor with some research done by themselves prior to the visit. They know what the symptoms are, what diseases it can be, etc. and ask LOTS of questions.
Therefore, in many communities, this confusion does not occur. If the patient population is relatively educated, they know the difference between doctors and nurse practioners.....
👍
I need to learn how to tune my trolldar for SDN.
Note to self: avoid medicine vs. dentistry/pharmacy/law/prostitution/clown college threads, URM threads, and 90% of the What Are My Chances? crud.
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The easiest thing for all of us to do is to go out and find rich husbands
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I wouldn't enter any profession for the money. In almost anything you do their will be money.
Don't be disillusioned by the lofty doctor salary figures that get thrown around, Medical school tuition averages about $160,000, that is on top of whatever you paid for undergrad. Plus housing and living expenses. Unless you have upper middle class parents or better chances are a lot of that expense is falling on your shoulders in the form of loans.
Few, if any residency programs, pay more than $50K/year which covers your living expenses and the interest on your loans, if you're smart.
Sure there is the big salary hike 3-7 years later but you stand a good chance at being $400K in debt, not to mention you will be at the age where you want to buy a home, start a family, etc. All which cost a lot. By the time your 40-45 you will probably be living quite comfortably.
I guess my point is don't go into medicine thinking you're going to be a 27-year-old with no debt, making $250K.
For me the choice is easy. I am very interested in archaeology and science involved in medicine. And I like to socialize. One pays, one doesn't. So I figure I'll start in medicine and transition to my other interests when I'm older.
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This is the hallmark of a phd, not a MD. You are perusing the wrong career path if this is your primary motivator (unless youre doing phd/md?).
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My #1, #2 and #3 motivation:
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Law and business school aren't free either. Granted they're three and two years respectively, but unless you were at the top of your class and/or from a top 15 law school, chances are your starting salary as a lawyer will not be greater than that of a resident, if you can even find a job. Similarly, if you went to a top business school, you'll probably make good money, but not all business school graduates will be working in ibanking or consulting for McKinsey.
Single white female searching for loving neuroradiologist. You should enjoy shopping and long walks to the bank.
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I didn't come here to troll. Fact remains, law is oversaturated right now, and there are students at Harvard Law with no jobs. It's why I'm doing a post-bac.
As for the "ideals" fundamentalists below who blasted me for valuing consumption over production, I wonder how long your idealism will last in the vale of tears that is practice. I will concede that if you value your profession in and of itself, it is a great feeling and an excellent, self-sufficient incentive. But as with using love to sustain a marriage, it is unreliable and untenable.
Everyone finds his own way to get through. I plan to self-medicate with ADHD drugs.
As for the "ideals" fundamentalists below who blasted me for valuing consumption over production, I wonder how long your idealism will last in the vale of tears that is practice. I will concede that if you value your profession in and of itself, it is a great feeling and an excellent, self-sufficient incentive. But as with using love to sustain a marriage, it is unreliable and untenable.
Everyone finds his own way to get through. I plan to self-medicate with ADHD drugs.
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My #1, #2 and #3 motivation:
See I just wanna stab people and get away with it.
You seem to limit your understanding of pharmacists to Walgreens.
PHARM is a big field. You can work in the clinical setting (hospital) or for large biotech/pharm companies.
I feel sorry for people who find their value through the eyes of other people. I don't think the perception gap is as large as you think it is.
EDIT: Also, as others have mentioned, the quality of life is better, and I wouldn't be surprised if the salaries were roughly the same after considering overhead and malprac... (or better heh)
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Op, do you have no other big interests/passions? If you do, the true price for going into medicine for you would be giving up those passions.
Otherwise, I think your reasoning is not all that far off. I mean there's plenty people here who just made a decision based on your exact same reasoning, but a lot earlier than you and have since then developed a passion in it since its all they focused their energy on and sacrifaced for in the last 5-10 years. So I am reletively confindent that you will develop more than a moderst interest after 10 years of working in a truely great proffesion.
Otherwise, I think your reasoning is not all that far off. I mean there's plenty people here who just made a decision based on your exact same reasoning, but a lot earlier than you and have since then developed a passion in it since its all they focused their energy on and sacrifaced for in the last 5-10 years. So I am reletively confindent that you will develop more than a moderst interest after 10 years of working in a truely great proffesion.
Being motivated by financial security is a clever euphemism for chasing money. Doctors have a tremendous responsibility to the well-being of their patients. Often, doing the job right does not come with commensurate remuneration. If you go to medical school solely motivated by earning potential, your practice of medicine will be likewise focused on earning potential. You will minimize contact time with patients, you will overbill or miscode, you will refuse to see certain patients due to their insurance plans or lack thereof, you will order unnecessary procedures, you will focus your talents on high paying elective procedures, you will do a million other things that have your bottom line as the cause. There are lots of doctors who are like this, and it is a big reason why there is so much waste and unnecessary billing in the profession. It is also a big reason that people don't trust doctors, so yes, it cheapens the profession when you care more about your "financial security" than appropriate treatment of your patients.
It is naive to believe that you will be most highly paid by by doing the most ethical and correct things for your patients. The most highly paid physicians are the ones who maximize the number of patients seen who undergo the most highly reimbursed procedures. The system is very screwed up and backwards.
There is more to being a good doctor than just getting the job done. To be a good doctor, you need to care about the work you are doing and how it affects peoples' lives. One of the biggest motivations I had to become a physician was all of the bad doctors who didn't care about me and treated me poorly, almost like I was just a broken piece of machinery.
