I was hit on by the physician I shadowed.

[jl lin]

jl lin, I don't care how you responded to the situation. You're super proud of yourself for ignoring these things. Whatever. I'm just straight up horrified that a doctor (much less more than one doctor) would do this to you. For God's sake.

I am sorry you are horrified. They were not horrifying experiences. Females often hold the power in male/female social dynamics.

Often enough it's like this: "If you command wisely, you'll be obeyed cheerfully."--Fuller

It certainly is not always true. But often it's true enough. Why get all bent out of shape? I have had patients and people say all kinds of bizarre things to me or others on the team. You learn not to get reactive and deal with things in a more objective fashion.

---

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[Lawpy]

@WedgeDawg let me know if you need more popcorn

 

[petyr_baelish]

I tell it like it is.

I'd put money on it that you read that red pill garbage.

 

[Cotterpin]

I am sorry you are horrified. They were not horrifying experiences. Females often hold the power in male/female social dynamics.

Often enough it's like this: "If you command wisely, you'll be obeyed cheerfully."--Fuller

It certainly is not always true. But often it's true enough. Why get all bent out of shape? I have had patients and people say all kinds of bizarre things to me or others on the team. You learn not to get reactive and deal with things in a more objective fashion.

Yo, I hate to break this to you, but you are not in command of the situation if doctors on the night shift are sniffing your hair.

Why do you keep assuming that I don't know how to deal with these things in real life? I'm a 33 year-old woman. I have dealt with this stuff sooooooo many times. (But not hair sniffing. That's so creepy.) And I'm fine. I'm tough. I've never had to take any of these things to HR. I've never cried about it. You don't need to act like you're teaching me some profound life lesson about letting men sniff your hair because you're so powerful or . . . whatever it is you think is happening.

 

[petyr_baelish]

The person who first brought up the idea of "Maybe those werent sexual advances" hasnt even been replied to a single time. Thats how insane this thread is.

That's because OP clarified that the invitation was to go over to his house.

 

[Psai]

It's hard to read women. Sometimes they seem interested and you find out that they're not. Sometimes they seem uninterested and you find out that they were. In general they aren't as straightforward as men and play around with words and actions so their intentions are unclear.

 

[Law2Doc]

#4 No, I completely disagree with you. It's not "scary" if I have a different view of the situation from you. I'm a woman. You are not. I understand OP's situation in a way that you couldn't possibly.

You don't have to be a particular gender to see a change in a story. It's not about understanding OPs situation or being in her shoes, even if you believe her not to be trolling. (Which I don't). It's about a complete change in facts stated. It went from something that read very casual to something that read very predatory. If you read her first post and your mind conjured the predatory scenario she hadn't yet posted, that's perhaps a reflection of your own bad experiences, not the obvious reading between the lines. But it doesn't change the fact of what the initial post actually said compared to the second. The story did change pretty drastically, if you read them objectively.

 

[Affiche]

I am sorry you are horrified. They were not horrifying experiences. Females often hold the power in male/female social dynamics.

Often enough it's like this: "If you command wisely, you'll be obeyed cheerfully."--Fuller

It certainly is not always true. But often it's true enough. Why get all bent out of shape? I have had patients and people say all kinds of bizarre things to me or others on the team. You learn not to get reactive and deal with things in a more objective fashion.

I disagree with the bold. It is absolutely not okay to advocate that women should desensitize themselves to unwanted advances as a means to cope with such situations. What nonsense.

 

[Gandyy]

That's because OP clarified that the invitation was to go over to his house.

No, even before that for a while everyone missed that, and responded to someone else

 

[Cotterpin]

You don't have to be a particular gender to see a change in a story. It's not about understanding OPs situation or being in her shoes, even if you believe her not to be trolling. (Which I don't). It's about a complete change in facts stated. It went from something that read very casual to something that read very predatory. If you read her first post and your mind conjured the predatory scenario she hadn't yet posted, that's perhaps a reflection of your own bad experiences, not the obvious reading between the lines. But it doesn't change the fact of what the initial post actually said compared to the second. The story did change pretty drastically, if you read them objectively.

Well, agree to disagree, I guess.

 

[jl lin]

Yo, I hate to break this to you, but you are not in command of the situation if doctors on the night shift are sniffing your hair.

Why do you keep assuming that I don't know how to deal with these things in real life? I'm a 33 year-old woman. I have dealt with this stuff sooooooo many times. (But not hair sniffing. That's so creepy.) And I'm fine. I'm tough. I've never had to take any of these things to HR. I've never cried about it. You don't need to act like you're teaching me some profound life lesson about letting men sniff your hair because you're so powerful or . . . whatever it is you think is happening.

Chill Cotterpin. I feel like you are taking this way too hard. Yes. I had command of the situation when I responded wisely to it, and then we all went about dealing with the sicker than hell patients in that particular surgical recovery area.

Sorry, truth be told the one dude was quite sexy; but as I am a married woman, I had to give a certain look that said, "Knock it off." But also realize that this is not something that occurs in general after having just met someone. I am talking about working in situations over a long period of time, during long, intensive shifts. It's not like these people just walked up to me out of the blue.

I give you leave to feel anyway you choose to feel about it. I have effectively handled such situations, and we all move on with what we are doing. I know when something is a big deal and when it isn't, and I definitely have the power not to let it be a big deal, if, indeed, a big deal is not what is required in the particular situation. You grab my breast and I am going to have a very serious patella reflex reaction.

No need to get upset Cotterpin.

 

[Gandyy]

@WedgeDawg let me know if you need more popcorn

Lawper is just having a blast with this thread.

 

[Cotterpin]

Chill Cotterpin. I feel like you are taking this way too hard. Yes. I had command of the situation when I responded wisely too it, and then we all went about dealing with the sicker than hell patients in that particular surgical recovery area.

Sorry, truth be told the one dude was quite sexy; but as I am a married woman, I had to give a certain look that said, "Knock it off." But also realize that this is not something that occurs in general after having just met someone. I am talking about working in situations over a long period of time, during long, intensive shifts. It's not like these people just walked up to me out of the blue.

I give you leave to feel anyway you choose to feel about it. I have effectively handled such situations, and we all move on with what we are doing. I know when something is a big deal and when it isn't, and I definitely have the power not to let it be a big deal, if, indeed, a big deal is not what is required in the particular situation. You grab my breast and I am going to have a very serious patella reflex reaction.

No need to get upset Cotterpin.

You're just very irritating.

 

[Affiche]

You don't have to be a particular gender to see a change in a story. It's not about understanding OPs situation or being in her shoes, even if you believe her not to be trolling. (Which I don't). It's about a complete change in facts stated. It went from something that read very casual to something that read very predatory. If you read her first post and your mind conjured the predatory scenario she hadn't yet posted, that's perhaps a reflection of your own bad experiences, not the obvious reading between the lines. But it doesn't change the fact of what the initial post actually said compared to the second. The story did change pretty drastically, if you read them objectively.

It didn't sound out of sorts to me because I experienced something very similar very recently. I wasn't asked out, but I received unwanted compliments about my appearance and was touched multiple times despite not wanting to be. Further, this man was a colleague of my boss, who set up the shadowing experience for me, so I felt uncomfortable being too forward about telling him to stop.

I really don't like that you've been dismissive of the OP's experience in this thread. Okay, you don't buy that it happened in this instance to this person, but it does happen. Often. Your prevalent skepticism casts doubt on not just the OP's experience, but on the validity of other women voicing similar experiences to the OP. Perhaps instead of focusing solely on attacking the OP's credibility, you can offer advice from a male perspective on how a young, professional woman can carry herself in these situations without coming off as a whining bitch who sees shapes in the shadows.

 

[ZedsDed]

I'd put money on it that you read that red pill garbage.

Lol yuuup

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

I made it to page 5 and had to stop. It felt like I was reading reddit/youtube comments not SDN. Why can't we all just get along?

 

[petyr_baelish]

Even if OP changed her story and even if she is a troll, the thread could still be relevant to many women in healthcare because the question was posed about how common it is to be hit on at work and how to deal with the situation. I don't think it matters even if this thread is just a thought experiment. Clearly, people have similar stories and have tried to share advice. It's actually a pretty difficult thing to talk about in the real world because it comes off as attention-seeking, over-sensitivity, miscommunication or just not a big deal which is very invalidating to people who feel threatened or uncomfortable (rightly or wrongly).

 

[Gandyy]

I made it to page 5 and had to stop. It felt like I was reading reddit/youtube comments not SDN. Why can't we all just get along?

Even Reddit beats this.

 

[jl lin]

You're just very irritating.

Aww. Sorry you feel that way Cotterpin. I like you though. No hard feeling, ey? It's just an Internet forum.

 

[Cotterpin]

Aww. Sorry you feel that way Cotterpin. I like you though. No hard feeling, ey? It's just an Internet forum.

Sure. I'm sorry, I just had to be very honest at this point in the conversation.

 

[jl lin]

Even if OP changed her story and even if she is a troll, the thread could still be relevant to many women in healthcare because the question was posed about how common it is to be hit on at work and how to deal with the situation. I don't think it matters even if this thread is just a thought experiment. Clearly, people have similar stories and have tried to share advice. It's actually a pretty difficult thing to talk about in the real world because it comes off as attention-seeking, over-sensitivity, miscommunication or just not a big deal which is very invalidating to people who feel threatened or uncomfortable (rightly or wrongly).

I know but as many of us have already stated, it really is dependent upon the particular situation in terms of how you can deal with it. There's a time to go "big guns," and there is a time to use finesse. It is completely situational is all I am saying.

 

[jl lin]

Sure. I'm sorry, I just had to be very honest at this point in the conversation.

That's fine. I can't please everyone all the time.

 

[Lawpy]

Lawper is just having a blast with this thread.

Not yet. This thread should be moved to the sociopolitical forums for maximum impact and intensity.

 

[jl lin]

As an aside, I find that people that use multiple monikers here to be sneaky or passive-aggressive and are extremely irritating and ridiculous. Cotterpin, this is not referring to you. Unless a person has a question that they want to keep confidential for good cause, one should stick with their moniker.

 

[Gandyy]

As an aside, I find that people that use multiple monikers here to be sneaky or passive-aggressive to are extremely irritating and ridiculous. Cotterpin, this is not referring to you. Unless a person has a question that they want to keep confidential for good cause, one should stick with their moniker.

Will not lie. Had to look up definition of Moniker.

 

[deleted393595]

This entire thread:

 

[Affiche]

I know but as many of us have already stated, it really is dependent upon the particular situation in terms of how you can deal with it. There's a time to go "big guns," and there is a time to use finesse. It is completely situational is all I am saying.

In no situation should it be permissible to advocate for women to brush off unwanted and persistent advances, which is what you've been bragging about this whole time. Tbh I don't think half the people in this thread follow what you're saying.

 

[ZedsDed]

This entire thread:

This thread is nothing.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sexual-harassment-from-interviewer.1165321/
Enjoy.

 

[Gandyy]

This thread is nothing.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sexual-harassment-from-interviewer.1165321/
Enjoy.

Yea that thread. IF I had a sister... and someone would have done that to her, I would have had a hay day with my "friend". Hell even close female cousins are like sisters. Same thing with them

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I've had doctors reach in and smell my hair or whatever. It was their way of testing me--am I open to the attraction. Whether I feel anything or not is immaterial, b/c I am committed, period, end of story. A turn and look is usually adequate. If you blow it up it may be excessive and not worth it. No I didn't see it as them coping a feel on my breast or grabbing my butt. People will have attractions. It doesn't mean anything must develop from it. If the person isn't a complete jerk and it's unwanted, it stops there. Of course I will say that some of this stuff has been more apt to happen on the grave yard shift than during days.

For the umpteenth time, it depends on the situation, and often how you respond to it. Whether it's with issues of male and female dynamics or other plentiful issues that arise when dealing with people, people must learn how to be self-determined and use wisdom and discretion in how they deal with the particular situation. We are not robots marching around each other at work. Why is this such a freaking big deal?

huh!?!?

 

[Law2Doc]

It didn't sound out of sorts to me because I experienced something very similar very recently. I wasn't asked out, but I received unwanted compliments about my appearance and was touched multiple times despite not wanting to be. Further, this man was a colleague of my boss, who set up the shadowing experience for me, so I felt uncomfortable being too forward about telling him to stop.

I really don't like that you've been dismissive of the OP's experience in this thread. Okay, you don't buy that it happened in this instance to this person, but it does happen. Often. Your prevalent skepticism casts doubt on not just the OP's experience, but on the validity of other women voicing similar experiences to the OP. Perhaps instead of focusing solely on attacking the OP's credibility, you can offer advice from a male perspective on how a young, professional woman can carry herself in these situations without coming off as a whining bitch who sees shapes in the shadows.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it's not awful that it does happen. I'm saying a couple of things.
(1) the initial story was that of an age indeterminate doctor casually asking someone he agreed to let shadow him if she had any weekend plans. That's all the initial post said. And that is of some interest for discussion because it may be unprofessional but at the same time someone who is shadowing is not a coworker or in a mentor relationship so it's somewhat of a gray area. And that makes it interesting to debate precisely because it's not so cut and dry.
(2) in the latter post, the story changed. The guy became in his 50s, there was unconsented touching involved, and it was no longer "do you have weekend plans", it was "do you want to come over to my place". That's really not a gray area, and thus not worthy of debate. We all agree that's over the top. Yes it happens but it's a different scenario than the initial one. And that change is where I cry shenanigans.
(3) I'm also saying a lot of you guys want to give shadowing the same HR protection and status an employee might get. It's different from a legal point of view. You are just a tourist, this isn't your workplace. It's all very informal, and honestly you could hang with any person in any field at their job and call it shadowing.
(4) having a mentor is a very different relationship than shadowing a guy for an afternoon or two.

That's really all I'm saying. I'm not being dismissive of predatory behavior. I'm being dismissive of a drastic change in a story that started out as a useful topic for debate but was moved out of the gray area and into something everybody agrees is wrong, making people focus in on tangents.

 

[Lawpy]

If it's any comfort, physician LORs are worthless. You're much better off getting a LOR from a professor or PI or someone else.

This entire thread:

That's all there is to know from this thread.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

calm down people, law2doc is just pointing out technicalities, not invalidating that these things might unfortunately happen

 

[Cotterpin]

I just don't get how adding more details to a short summary after people ask you if you're misinterpreting things is being construed as as a "drastic change in the story."

 

[Affiche]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it's not awful that it does happen. I'm saying a couple of things.
(1) the initial story was that of an age indeterminate doctor casually asking someone he agreed to let shadow him if she had any weekend plans. That's all the initial post said. And that is of some interest for discussion because it may be unprofessional but at the same time someone who is shadowing is not a coworker or in a mentor relationship so it's somewhat of a gray area. And that makes it interesting to debate precisely because it's not so cut and dry.
(2) in the latter post, the story changed. The guy became in his 50s, there was unconsented touching involved, and it was no longer "do you have weekend plans", it was "do you want to come over to my place". That's really not a gray area, and thus not worthy of debate. We all agree that's over the top. Yes it happens but it's a different scenario than the initial one. And that change is where I cry shenanigans.
(3) I'm also saying a lot of you guys want to give shadowing the same HR protection and status an employee might get. It's different from a legal point of view. You are just a tourist, this isn't your workplace. It's all very informal, and honestly you could hang with any person in any field at their job and call it shadowing.
(4) having a mentor is a very different relationship than shadowing a guy for an afternoon or two.

That's really all I'm saying. I'm not being dismissive of predatory behavior. I'm being dismissive of a drastic change in a story that started out as a useful topic for debate but was moved out of the gray area and into something everybody agrees is wrong, making people focus in on tangents.

I don't think the story changed as much as she provided further detail. It's not like he was 30 and then "he became in his 50's" lol she just mentioned his age in a later post because she was accused of misinterpreting his advances. But to me, this is irrelevant. You've been so focused on discrediting her in this thread that you've failed to add anything meaningful to the discussion. Your last post still focuses on discrediting her. Okay, we got it like 6 pages ago that you don't buy her story. Leave it at that or offer something else to the discussion.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I just don't get how adding more details to a short summary after people ask you if you're misinterpreting things is being construed as as a "drastic change in the story."

right I also believe her--if I was making the same post, I would also feel super awkward giving details to a bunch of strangers

I'm still trying to register the post about hair sniffing

 

[Cotterpin]

right I also believe her--if I was making the same post, I would also feel super awkward giving details to a bunch of strangers

Yeah, exactly. This is what I'm saying. Us ladies can totally see how this situation developed, so we don't find it weird or fishy at all. It's definitely hard to open up about things like this, especially since it's pretty much a given that a bunch of men will respond and immediately call you into question and doubt everything you say and turn it into an attack on you.

 

[jl lin]

In no situation should it be permissible to advocate for women to brush off unwanted and persistent advances, which is what you've been bragging about this whole time. Tbh I don't think half the people in this thread follow what you're saying.

No. I am certain that most women have had manifold experiences with this sort of thing. Not everything requires an extreme reaction. As I have repeatedly said, it is a situational issue as to how to respond. Example a simple hair sniff versus someone touching or grabbing my breast. The latter would end up causing some pain for the perpetrator.

Sure you do. If you have been hit on in a relatively innocent manner, you have had to have some experience with this. It all doesn't require an extreme response. That's all I have been saying, period.

 

[Affiche]

It just bothers me when people default to not believing that this type of thing has happened. Sexual harassment and assault is under-reported enough without women being called liars for speaking up. And for Christ's sake, she wasn't going to report this guy or looking for attention, she was posting in an anonymous forum asking for advice.

 

[soadhead]

Well, agree to disagree, I guess.

Sorry. I have to jump in here. Are you freaking serious!!?? Somebody asking you if you are free this weekend is the same thing to you as someone touching you inappropriately and asking you to come to their home? Any reasonable person would and should question your objectivity.

 

[claduva94]

I don't think the story changed as much as she provided further detail. It's not like he was 30 and then "he became in his 50's" lol she just mentioned his age in a later post because she was accused of misinterpreting his advances. But to me, this is irrelevant. You've been so focused on discrediting her in this thread that you've failed to add anything meaningful to the discussion. Your last post still focuses on discrediting her. Okay, we got it like 6 pages ago that you don't buy her story. Leave it at that or offer something else to the discussion.

I don't think it is the age that is the problem for Law2Doc. Sure it was useful information but not necessarily necessary. But the with from "He asked if I was free this weekend" to "He touched me when it wasn't necessary and asked me back to his place" are different by at least an order of magnitude and is very essential for our judgement of what is going on here.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm sorry, I think I got whiplash somewhere along the line when we transitioned from the expected "girls are too uptight about men hitting on them" to "eww, promiscuous girls are the worst, never date a girl who openly admits she enjoyed sex when she was younger."

Pray tell me, what is the appropriate level of openness to advances that I, as a woman, am expected to achieve?

@Affiche @Cotterpin @jl lin and others

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but how would you address mehc012's dilemma above?

 

[jl lin]

OK, Totally this thread:

 

[Gandyy]

It just bothers me when people default to not believing that this type of thing has happened. Sexual harassment and assault is under-reported enough without women being called liars for speaking up. And for Christ's sake, she wasn't going to report this guy or looking for attention, she was posting in an anonymous forum asking for advice.

This is a strong point.

 

[jl lin]

Sorry. I have to jump in here. Are you freaking serious!!?? Somebody asking you if you are free this weekend is the same thing to you as someone touching you inappropriately and asking you to come to their home? Any reasonable person would and should question your objectivity.

Right. Totally not the same situations at all.

 

[claduva94]

@Affiche @Cotterpin @jl lin and others

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but how would you address mehc012's dilemma above?

Can you quote it?

 

[jl lin]

This is a strong point.

Agreed. But that's not how this OP started.

 

[Cotterpin]

Sorry. I have to jump in here. Are you freaking serious!!?? Somebody asking you if you are free this weekend is the same thing to you as someone touching you inappropriately and asking you to come to their home? Any reasonable person would and should question your objectivity.

Yes, I'm serious. If some man was touching my back unnecessarily, then later on asked me if I were free this weekend to come by his place, then when I'm telling the story, I might say "this guy asked me if I was free this weekend." And then when people asked, "are you sure he wasn't just asking you to shadow him some more?" I would elaborate and explain with the other details that I left out the first time.

 

[Lawpy]

Can you quote it?

Already did but reposted here:

I'm sorry, I think I got whiplash somewhere along the line when we transitioned from the expected "girls are too uptight about men hitting on them" to "eww, promiscuous girls are the worst, never date a girl who openly admits she enjoyed sex when she was younger."

Pray tell me, what is the appropriate level of openness to advances that I, as a woman, am expected to achieve?

Didn't quote atomi's posts tho but it's in the first page.

 

[Cotterpin]

@Affiche @Cotterpin @jl lin and others

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but how would you address mehc012's dilemma above?

"Pray tell me, what is the appropriate level of openness to advances that I, as a woman, am expected to achieve?"

Did you not pick up on the sarcasm dripping from that question? I think she's making a rueful joke about how women are expected to put up with certain levels of sexual attention from men, regardless of her own level of comfort. Because we wouldn't want to make a problem, right? We're expected to accommodate the man, his natural inclinations, his interest, his ego.

What I want to say to mehc012 is that she shouldn't put up with anything she's uncomfortable with. If she doesn't like the way she's being treated, then she should speak up. Disclaimer: I am not saying she should freak out and "get her panties in a twist" and take it HR or whatever every single time. But I am saying that she should get to decide for herself what kind of sexual attention is or is not wanted.