I was screwed. What to do now? (Committee letter)

[tpathiyil]

So I went to an interview a couple weeks ago. They were really nice and I love the campus. They tell me however, that my college that I went to (SLU) wrote me a terrible committee letter and said that I would not be fit for med school, giving me a 2/5 score. I was very surprised, and I thought I handled the situation well. I am so mad though because SLU never told me that they would write me a bad review. This is the 2nd year I have applied to medical school and I only heard back from a total of 4 DO schools both years (I applied to 20 MD and 10 DO both years). I believe that what is really holding me back in my Committee Letter, my MCAT (32), and GPA (3.6) (because I am Indian, I feel like my scores should be higher). So what should I do now? Go back and ask them to write me a new one? Confront them about it? I literally wasted hundreds of dollars and will be wasting 2 years of my life if I do not figure out how to fix this.

I believe that they said that I "was not motivated enough to become a doctor" and I think that is because I made it seem like I would rather research. That is not the case though. I want to do medicine more than researching.

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[benlugi]

it wasn't your stats, your school committee seriously didn't like you at all. there is nothing you can do about the committee letter now. don't use it anymore. you should get letters from individual professors and reapply

 

[DrMidlife]

The odds of ever getting any satisfaction from the committee's action are nearly zero. These committees aren't looking to provide you with concise feedback, because that works very nicely as the basis of a huge pointless time-wasting lawsuit when kids tell their parents and the parents call a lawyer. Your university bears liability for this committee making reasonable decisions, and these faculty most likely were put on that committee because they are good at the job of keeping the university from sending weak candidates on to med school. These committees fully understand when they throw somebody's medical career under a bus, and that kind of event is very rare. So while it's a completely legitimate and reasonable endeavor to politely and persistently ask for specific feedback on why you were judged so poorly, be prepared for this not to get you anywhere.

I would challenge you to consider whether you'd get different feedback from other faculty at this point. You might. You might not.

Regardless, you should take that committee feedback seriously. Saying you were "screwed" absolves yourself of any responsibility for what happened with you and that committee. I recommend, instead, being very curious about what aspects of your personality or performance resulted in a bad recommendation. Again, these committees fully understand when they throw somebody's medical career under a bus, and that kind of event is very rare. Leave some room in your perspective on this situation for acceptance. It takes great bravery and humility to be curious instead of brokenhearted and chapped after a bad eval. Unfortunately, a willingness to learn and to change doesn't come with a side order of perfect information about exactly what you need to do. You may need to struggle and fight to find out what you're supposed to work on. Getting people to be really honest with you turns out to be really hard, because guns and lawyers.

Also possible here is that you got culturally profiled by a bunch of racists. If that's the case and you're entirely innocent of all aspersions cast (I'll pre-emptively call BS, but I wasn't there), then go get a masters degree at a school with lots of SE Asian faculty, collect a bunch of new LORs, publish, and try again. Odds are you'll have similar evals, if you do no introspection meanwhile, but grad school is the next step if you want to keep trying for med school.

One way to look at this, instead of a loss of hundreds of dollars and 2 years of your life, is that you may have just been saved hundreds of thousands and a decade of your life by a committee that doesn't think you should go to med school and had the cojones to say so. You could look at this as an opportunity to do something else. When you're done feeling defensive that this anonymous internet poster just slammed you (which I didn't, read it again) you might consider this line of thinking. Not going to med school might need to be a loss that you grieve, but it won't kill you. It won't prevent you from making piles of money. It might make it more likely that you'd have a happy life, doing something else. Maybe. Just suggestions.

Close out your med school app and don't spend any more time or money on this app year. You're done for now.

Best of luck to you.

 

[tpathiyil]

Thanks for the feedback Dr. Midlife. I did not mean to come off as defensive or absolving myself of any responsibility, but what I am upset about is that they did not tell me earlier so I could work on things they saw needed improvement. I honestly believe that there was a misunderstanding at the committee interview, and they thought I would like research better. But they didn't have the "cojones" to say it to my face. It was only because another school told me that they wrote me a bad review. They also told me that my faculty and physicians wrote much better reviews about me. And I do not think they are racist. They are a very inclusive school. I just made the point about me being Indian because if you look on AMCAS stats, the average mcat and gpa for Indians is around like 36ish and 3.8.

I am not out for blood, I don't want to sue, I just want to get another chance at a committee review to prove to them that I am a better candidate now. I have been volunteering, working as a scribe, and taking classes for med school. The only reason I think that my letter was unfair was because my interaction with the committee was a 30ish minute interview. I doubt that the one teacher knows better than me if I am suited for medical school. I am motivated to be a doctor and I am not deterred by what physicians say about how much they hate it.

Thank you for your input.

 

[DrMidlife]

but what I am upset about is that they did not tell me earlier so I could work on things they saw needed improvement

Oh right! I forgot to mention what prompted me to respond in the first place.

When a committee like this is going to throw a student under a bus, and doesn't tell that student it's happening, that's textbook passive aggression and it's just not professional. I assume tuition at SLU is really high, and the point of going to a private school is that you're supposed to get some personal attention. These committees are supposed to spend 3+ years getting to know you, or delegate that familiarity to your professors. 3+ years is plenty of time to give corrective advice. 3+ years is plenty of time to get more than a half hour out of these folks.

Maybe that level of effort is kind of 1970's era stuff now. Which sucks.

What I meant to mention was this: your school should NEVER have let you find out you had a bad committee letter during a med school interview. That does damage to your university's reputation just like letting a rotten apple through their screening process. (Not as much damage as producing a fine young Craigslist killer and sending him off to med school, but damage all the same.) And a med school that extends an interview without doing some app review is just as bad. It sounds like a physician came off the wards to do an afternoon of interviews and was the first person to see that letter. Bad behavior all over the place.

But let me share this with you: it only gets worse from here. If you feel exposed now, by the committee's judgment, wait until med school. Standardized patients, community preceptors, piles of residents, clerkship directors, etc etc etc are all going to get a shot at you without recourse, all year long. All these folks who evaluate you get protected anonymity, and then their comments end up on your residency letter. (You may also get anonymity in your eval of residents and faculty, but you never really know.) My point in bringing this up is to let you know it's good to get a thick-ass skin, as you're working your fanny off to be the most effective/professional/thoughtful/proactive/etc future healthcare provider you can be.

BTW, if you only got a 30 minute interview, that tells me that this committee went after input from faculty to balance their opinion. Don't overblow that 30 minutes. As I mentioned above, finding out the details of what happened may be nearly impossible. If you have another year at this university, then there's some basis for a better letter later. But in your shoes I'd have trust issues on a redo. In your shoes I'd try to get a sit-down with somebody on the committee and let them know your intentions of trying again. If you can't get the time of day from a committee member, move on.

Best of luck to you.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Why did you use a committee letter?

My GPA was a little higher and MCAT was a few points lower. I had 8 DO IIs in 3 months. You would have been drowning in DO acceptances with those stats.

This is exactly the reason I avoided my pre-health advisor.

 

[DrMidlife]

When you don't use a committee letter, the first question is "did your school have a committee?" and the second question is "why didn't you pursue a committee letter?"

You might get lucky and not get asked, but have an answer ready.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

When you don't use a committee letter, the first question is "did your school have a committee?" and the second question is "why didn't you pursue a committee letter?"

You might get lucky and not get asked, but have an answer ready.

I was never asked at any of my interviews.

 

[DrMidlife]

I was never asked at any of my interviews.

Maybe it's an MD school thing then. Good luck to you.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Ok...

So here's my advice if you want to apply DO. Try and get separate LORs. Send them to Interfolio. *&^% the committee letter. Go interview. &%$# the committee letter. Get accepted and study medicine.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Maybe it's an MD school thing then. Good luck to you.

I remember asking my pre-med advisor for a committee letter.

The UA does not create or provide pre-medical advisory committee letters. This service combines the student's reference letters into one document. Our institution is not unusual. Many colleges and universities do not create pre-med committee letters. I know from my colleagues (pre-health advisors at other schools) that these kinds of letters are more common among private schools and at colleges and universities on the East coast. Perhaps some medical schools prefer them because they then only have to review one document instead of separate letters. In any event, we do not and have never offered this service. It does not reflect any differently upon you as a candidate. Simply request individual letters from the people who are writing your letters: professors, physicians, supervisors, etc.

In your situation, we recommend keeping in touch with professors and/or make new connections. If you have not, start now. People who supervise you in a clinical setting, a current supervisor in a job or research opportunity, physicians you are shadowing, etc. Some students take another class for the express purpose of acquiring a letter of recommendation.

Sorry I cannot be of assistance. Hope this helps.

This was at a big public university in AZ that has a MD school right across the street. I believe they did have a committee that wrote letters back then.

Imagine all the wonderful advice she probably gave to other pre-meds.

 

[Goro]

A lot of MD schools prefer and even require them.

Why did you use a committee letter?

My GPA was a little higher and MCAT was a few points lower. I had 8 DO IIs in 3 months. You would have been drowning in DO acceptances with those stats.

This is exactly the reason I avoided my pre-health advisor.

 

[DrMidlife]

Again, if your school has a committee, then you either get that committee's letter, or you make sure you have an answer for "why didn't you use the committee." You may not be asked.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, where are you taking classes now? Especially if it's at a different school, I suggest getting individual letters from your profs there. One you've been out of college for a while, your UG letters may not be, shall we say, the freshest, and you should consider replacing them with more recent letters anyway. Hopefully your new profs can see your dedication to medicine. Also, your stats are fine. There is no expectation that Indian applicants should have higher stats than other people.

 

[HinduHammer]

So I went to an interview a couple weeks ago. They were really nice and I love the campus. They tell me however, that my college that I went to (SLU) wrote me a terrible committee letter and said that I would not be fit for med school, giving me a 2/5 score. I was very surprised, and I thought I handled the situation well. I am so mad though because SLU never told me that they would write me a bad review. This is the 2nd year I have applied to medical school and I only heard back from a total of 4 DO schools both years (I applied to 20 MD and 10 DO both years). I believe that what is really holding me back in my Committee Letter, my MCAT (32), and GPA (3.6) (because I am Indian, I feel like my scores should be higher). So what should I do now? Go back and ask them to write me a new one? Confront them about it? I literally wasted hundreds of dollars and will be wasting 2 years of my life if I do not figure out how to fix this.

I believe that they said that I "was not motivated enough to become a doctor" and I think that is because I made it seem like I would rather research. That is not the case though. I want to do medicine more than researching.

Thanks for the feedback Dr. Midlife. I did not mean to come off as defensive or absolving myself of any responsibility, but what I am upset about is that they did not tell me earlier so I could work on things they saw needed improvement. I honestly believe that there was a misunderstanding at the committee interview, and they thought I would like research better. But they didn't have the "cojones" to say it to my face. It was only because another school told me that they wrote me a bad review. They also told me that my faculty and physicians wrote much better reviews about me. And I do not think they are racist. They are a very inclusive school. I just made the point about me being Indian because if you look on AMCAS stats, the average mcat and gpa for Indians is around like 36ish and 3.8.

I am not out for blood, I don't want to sue, I just want to get another chance at a committee review to prove to them that I am a better candidate now. I have been volunteering, working as a scribe, and taking classes for med school. The only reason I think that my letter was unfair was because my interaction with the committee was a 30ish minute interview. I doubt that the one teacher knows better than me if I am suited for medical school. I am motivated to be a doctor and I am not deterred by what physicians say about how much they hate it.

Thank you for your input.

No offense but you sound like a very cookie-cutter, entitled candidate. Its like you expected them to give you an awesome committee letter just because. You even said in your OP that *you* made it sound like you would like research better, no one put a gun to your head. You also neglected DrMidlife's many points about exploring whether medicine is really the career for you. In your posts you don't sound like you have a passion for it at all, only that you are "motivated" to get into medical school. You seem entitled because you are blaming everything else instead of looking in the mirror: you are Indian so your stats are the problem (which implies that the med school admissions process is racist against Indians...), your committee only spent 30 mins with you so they are the problem (when they have done these letters for probably hundreds of students, but you somehow were the student they made the incorrect judgment on). I suggest you take a look in the mirror at what DrMidlife said about a. why you want to be a physician and b. why would schools want you to matriculate at their institution when they have thousands of other candidates with the exact same stats and scribe experience as you.

 

[tpathiyil]

Thank you everyone for the replies. I do value the committee letters more than just LORs because schools give it more weight and I believe its worth more to have a whole university supporting you. I love my university; it has its flaws but I am happy I had my education there. I am currently taking some extra classes at a community college, so I may supplement my application with LOR from current teachers. The only reason I made this post was to see if there was anything I could do to change my committee letter. I do not care extra what it said, I just want to show SLU that I have improved as a med school candidate. But I also received tremendously valuable life information by Dr. Midlife, so thank you for that. I will be exploring other careers as well to see if Medicine is really what I want to pursue and if I am ready for medical school.

HinduHammer: I would just like to comment to some of your post. I did expect them to give me a good committee letter. When I was signing a document waiving my right to see the committee letter, I asked why we needed to waive the right. The Pre-health committee stated it was so we can have an unbias letter, but to not worry because "we will make sure to put you in the best light possible." I was worried that they could write me a bad letter, but I trusted them.

I was always told to do research while in undergrad, and it will help for med school. So when I was in my interview, I talked it up that I have been doing a lot of research and I love it. It may unknowingly, made the interviewer think that I am more interested in research than medicine.

I don't think you have really good evidence that I wasnt listening to Dr. Midlife. I was looking at Dr. Midlife profile, and she is a really respected person on student doctor, so I would not take her advice lightly. I clearly have passion for medicine since I want to get into medical school, and I came to this forum to make me a better candidate... But that is besides the point. I am not trying to prove to you that I am motivated for medicine.

I said in my last post to Dr. Midlife that I take responsibility too for not convincing the committee. I also only brought up my MCAT and GPA to say that I am a qualified candidate for medical school grade wise, and that I am taking responsibility and trying to make my application better. I am not saying that schools are racist, but schools try to balance out ethnicity in their classes, So I am competing with the average Indian applicants MCAT and GPA, which is a little higher than the average of all applicants.

Finally, I was only upset that they didnt tell me. I honestly would have spent at least 5-10 years to try getting into medical school if I did not find out that my school gave me a bad letter. Do not judge me, because you could not possibly understand my full story and my potential in medicine. Your post was useless in helping me understand this situation better or figure out what I should do for the future.

And if there are so many people with the same stats as me applied, does that mean that none of us should get into medicine?

 

[bluepeach9]

So I went to an interview a couple weeks ago. They were really nice and I love the campus. They tell me however, that my college that I went to (SLU) wrote me a terrible committee letter and said that I would not be fit for med school, giving me a 2/5 score. I was very surprised, and I thought I handled the situation well. I am so mad though because SLU never told me that they would write me a bad review. This is the 2nd year I have applied to medical school and I only heard back from a total of 4 DO schools both years (I applied to 20 MD and 10 DO both years). I believe that what is really holding me back in my Committee Letter, my MCAT (32), and GPA (3.6) (because I am Indian, I feel like my scores should be higher). So what should I do now? Go back and ask them to write me a new one? Confront them about it? I literally wasted hundreds of dollars and will be wasting 2 years of my life if I do not figure out how to fix this.

I believe that they said that I "was not motivated enough to become a doctor" and I think that is because I made it seem like I would rather research. That is not the case though. I want to do medicine more than researching.

I'm actually from SLU and am also Indian lol so I can relate. South Asians do tend to get high scores, but I don't think all med schools will compare us to them when selecting applicants. You may not have a 36 and 4.0, but you do seem to have ample research and clinical experience. I would think that would balance your application out. But, having heard about the rising importance of good LORs, I definitely think it was your committee letter. Perhaps SLU compared you based on other Indians' performance? Or maybe something was wrong with your interviewing? I'm not sure…but I feel like you should try to figure out what was in the letter so you can improve that aspect. Since you can't just throw away the letter, I would suggest talking to SLU's pre-health office and explaining the situation. Or check to see if there is a re-evaluation process. I know SLU's advisors and they are usually very helpful…strongly suggest finding a way to somehow change/get a new committee letter if that's possible! You can show them all the things you have done over the past few yrs. to improve and I'm sure they will re-evaluate you in a new light. Getting other LORs is good too, but I feel like med schools will still concentrate heavily on the committee letter (when there's a university letter, adcoms tend to focus on that more and skim individual letters to save time).

If this is still a big problem, I would just stop using the letter regardless of what schools might say. If you have strong individual letters, you can prove at the interview that you are a good candidate. But one bad letter may not even get you that interview. Perhaps you could say that you were an older student and graduated 2+ yrs from SLU…hence, the reason for no committee letter.

 

[Visible Ghost]

I always asked whether a professor could do a positive recommendation letter, and I never left it up to their assumption that they have a right to be ambiguous.

I was just straight up: Can you write me a positive recommendation letter for medical school? Yes or No. Never leave such an important matter to chance!

 

[Visible Ghost]

Again, if your school has a committee, then you either get that committee's letter, or you make sure you have an answer for "why didn't you use the committee." You may not be asked.

Even if your school has a committee, their approval is not needed. You get rec letters from whoever you want.

Was OP required to have a committee letter? Which med school requires this?

 

[Visible Ghost]

I would simply ask the committee straight up in person or by email (whichever way they prefer) whether or not they can do a positive recommendation later. I would never put my future int the hands of some committee

 

[seminoma]

You don't need a committee letter even if your school has a committee. SLU also will not provide committee letters for students who have already graduated. Since this is your second year applying, I'm guessing you will also be graduating in the spring. Therefore, your next application cycle you rest assured that the lack of a committee letter will not be a problem because "SLU will not provide a committee packet to alumni".

As a SLU alumn myself, your story just doesn't fit. The committee tells you if they are not going to write you a positive cover-letter. If they feel you are not a good applicant for whatever reason, they reject your application for a committee letter. This is part of the reason why they have requirements (GPA/MCAT threshold, volunteering hours, etc) to even be eligible for a committee letter.

 

[MSmentor018]

So I went to an interview a couple weeks ago. They were really nice and I love the campus. They tell me however, that my college that I went to (SLU) wrote me a terrible committee letter and said that I would not be fit for med school, giving me a 2/5 score. I was very surprised, and I thought I handled the situation well. I am so mad though because SLU never told me that they would write me a bad review. This is the 2nd year I have applied to medical school and I only heard back from a total of 4 DO schools both years (I applied to 20 MD and 10 DO both years). I believe that what is really holding me back in my Committee Letter, my MCAT (32), and GPA (3.6) (because I am Indian, I feel like my scores should be higher). So what should I do now? Go back and ask them to write me a new one? Confront them about it? I literally wasted hundreds of dollars and will be wasting 2 years of my life if I do not figure out how to fix this.

I believe that they said that I "was not motivated enough to become a doctor" and I think that is because I made it seem like I would rather research. That is not the case though. I want to do medicine more than researching.

f#$k'em . go get your own letters. as far as i know nothing says you have to have one. i didn't use one, had 2 docs and 1 professor then i wrote my own letter on why i decide not to do it. granted my app was held up at a couple of schools b/c the clerk-bots couldn't figure it out but after a few phone calls they approved it to go on to the committee. good luck and keep driving on

 

[Gastrapathy]

If the SLU premed committee writes negative letters and hides behind the release waiver, all this angst about whether the OP deserved a negative letter is nothing compared to the justifiable anger he should feel at that incredible lack of professionalism on their part. The title of the thread is correct, he was screwed.

OP, ditch the committee letter. If asked, state that you've been out of school for a while and felt individual letters would better reflect who you are (it may not work everywhere but it will work somewhere). You could also still apply for the Temple post-bacc and use that as a guaranteed route into med school.

 

[DesertPT]

If the SLU premed committee writes negative letters and hides behind the release waiver, all this angst about whether the OP deserved a negative letter is nothing compared to the justifiable anger he should feel at that incredible lack of professionalism on their part. The title of the thread is correct, he was screwed.

Stumbled upon this thread and have to say that from the perspective of someone with a decent but not extremely thorough knowledge of the medical school admissions process, I couldn't agree more with Gastrapathy. If the committee really did write a letter saying this person is not good for medical school, and gave no indication that they were going to do so, then the OP is not acting "entitled" by saying he feels he got screwed.

 

[seminoma]

If the SLU premed committee writes negative letters and hides behind the release waiver, all this angst about whether the OP deserved a negative letter is nothing compared to the justifiable anger he should feel at that incredible lack of professionalism on their part. The title of the thread is correct, he was screwed.

OP, ditch the committee letter. If asked, state that you've been out of school for a while and felt individual letters would better reflect who you are (it may not work everywhere but it will work somewhere). You could also still apply for the Temple post-bacc and use that as a guaranteed route into med school.

That's the thing, they don't. SLU has requirements for students to even be considered for a letter. If you don't fit those requirements, they tell you they aren't going to write you a letter. If you fit the requirements, but then they decide you still aren't a good fit/applicant, they tell you they cannot write you a letter.

 

[DesertPT]

That's the thing, they don't. SLU has requirements for students to even be considered for a letter. If you don't fit those requirements, they tell you they aren't going to write you a letter. If you fit the requirements, but then they decide you still aren't a good fit/applicant, they tell you they cannot write you a letter.

Hmmm...well we need the OP to come back and explain why his story doesn't corroborate yours.

 

[QofQuimica]

That's the thing, they don't. SLU has requirements for students to even be considered for a letter. If you don't fit those requirements, they tell you they aren't going to write you a letter. If you fit the requirements, but then they decide you still aren't a good fit/applicant, they tell you they cannot write you a letter.

That's how it should be. I have had a few students in the past who have asked me for letters where I did not feel I could write a strong letter (not even a negative letter, just not a strong one), and in those cases, I told them it would be better for them to ask someone else. Considering that I wouldn't even want to write a lukewarm letter, I certainly wouldn't agree to write a letter for someone if it would be negative!

 

[kfla]

I went to a university which had a committee for med schools. During the process I was told that the committee would decline to issue a letter if it felt that the student was marginal or unqualified. Therefore I have serious doubts as well.

 

[Visible Ghost]

I went to a university which had a committee for med schools. During the process I was told that the committee would decline to issue a letter if it felt that the student was marginal or unqualified. Therefore I have serious doubts as well.

There are committees at many undergraduate schools that write recommendation letters if requested, and not necessarily positive ones.

That's why med schools emphasize that prospects be sure they select the right people to write rec letters . The problem is easily resolved by asking professor if they can write positive recommendation letter.

 

[sithmoo]

it wasn't your stats, your school committee seriously didn't like you at all. there is nothing you can do about the committee letter now. don't use it anymore. you should get letters from individual professors and reapply

that's pretty good advice. i'm from an undergrad school that doesn't write committee letters anyway, and if you're only two years out of school you've got a good chance of persuading a few professors (2 science, 1 nonscience, at least, would be optimal) to write letters for ya
got an employer or two from the past two years you could honey-talk into writing you a letter? if so, them years ain't a waste at all.

 

[jl lin]

That's the thing, they don't. SLU has requirements for students to even be considered for a letter. If you don't fit those requirements, they tell you they aren't going to write you a letter. If you fit the requirements, but then they decide you still aren't a good fit/applicant, they tell you they cannot write you a letter.

Hmm, one wonders, specifically what the "said requirements" are, and what level of capriciousness determines you "fit," but "don't fit," thereafter? Shaking head. Capricious humans. They never cease to amaze me.

 

[jl lin]

If the SLU premed committee writes negative letters and hides behind the release waiver, all this angst about whether the OP deserved a negative letter is nothing compared to the justifiable anger he should feel at that incredible lack of professionalism on their part. The title of the thread is correct, he was screwed.

OP, ditch the committee letter. If asked, state that you've been out of school for a while and felt individual letters would better reflect who you are (it may not work everywhere but it will work somewhere). You could also still apply for the Temple post-bacc and use that as a guaranteed route into med school.

Thank you Gastrapathy. 👍 It's sad when people can't just stand back and leave personality/favor vs. lack of favor--all capricious, subjective things--out of the evaluation process. And that is what I think of when the whole waiver release is used. If your eval process is predominately objective in nature, go ahead and stand by your letter w/o a waiver. And whenever something more subjective in nature is included, it should equal 10% of the evaluation. Humans "be" crazy.

 

[seminoma]

Thank you Gastrapathy. 👍 It's sad when people can't just stand back and leave personality/favor vs. lack of favor--all capricious, subjective things--out of the evaluation process. And that is what I think of when the whole waiver release is used. If your eval process is predominately objective in nature, go ahead and stand by your letter w/o a waiver. And whenever something more subjective in nature is included, it should equal 10% of the evaluation. Humans "be" crazy.

Subjective things are the basis of strong letters... Objective letters are cookie cutter letters.

 

[jl lin]

Subjective things are the basis of strong letters... Objective letters are cookie cutter letters.

I disagree. And as I said, go ahead and put that subjective 10% in there, but let it be quantified as 10% validity--b/c it may or may not be supportable. And there is a way of effectively writing people's strengths and weaknesses in such a way that there is balance and more objectivity. It means actually spending more time with the individual--and using stronger thought-processes.

See the key is in the development of something closer to a mentorship, in a sense. Of course those leading/teaching have to be willing and so do the students. Personally, however, I would rather have an objective "cookie cutter" evaluation, then have a subjective evaluation that does not in fairness and balance relate my performance and abilities. Often, subjective stuff is sadly all about likeability, which some many argue is very important--but that can vary from person-to-person in terms of what that actually means. It can involve a more or less butt-kissing kind of relationship, though not always--and that is an evaluation that is pointless to me--unless indeed you are looking for cookie-cutter, robotic-driven, Stepfordish physicians that do whatever to make you happy and do not think for themselves. Sadly, that is too often what is relished in the healthcare workplace--b/c it's more of that business-minded, bottom line, where others are just so much easier to deal with b/c they don't think so much on their own, but just only care about doing what they are told kind of deal. These people lose out many times, b/c teachable moments are lost. As a patient, I don't want a reckless cowboy; but at the same time, I don't want someone that follows some script and doesn't listen or think on their own or even think in ways that may enhance their ability to consider some real, cogent possibilities.

Sure. There is a time to follow well, and then there is also a time to lead well. Do we want our physicians to be only able to follow-well? That's fine at the start, but at some point, we have to cultivate true leadership and thinking processes that will vary, depending upon the individual/s and the information presented, as well as the current evidence. So, no. If the subjective piece is what someone prejudged, misjudged about someone else--or if it is about how well a person can kiss butt, even without looking like they are doing so, to me, that's worthless information--capriciousness that tells me zip about the mind, actions, integrity, ethics, skills and capabilities of the individual.

 

[tpathiyil]

Hey guys! Sorry I did not reply back to any of your comments. I left after my last post, promising myself I would never return again after I wrote an angry letter to the guy questioning my character without even knowing me. Sorry to that guy.

So there are some doubts about my story. There are a few possible explanations.
1. I lied about things that I wrote.

I don't know why anyone would lie about a post like this. Like I said over and over I really want help getting a new committee letter and I wanted to ask SDN. Fabricating details of my story (GPA, MCAT, the fact that I am Indian lol, or that no one told me I was getting a bad letter) just so you guys can validate me (I guess that is why someone would do that) is not what I came here to do.

2. My interviewer lied about what was on my committee letter

That lying piece of.... nah I am just kidding. I have serious doubts that she would lie to me. Mainly because she was the A. the only one that seem to genuinely care about my future in medicine. B. emailed me saying that she still put forth my name to admissions council (sadly I did not get in getting more details about that soon), and C. She was reading off from my application. This was an open interview, she was seeing my committee letter for the first time. The letter gave me a score of 2/5 (obviously 5 being the highest). I forgot all what she said but the main thing was "motivation for medicine". She also said that my subjective LOR were very positive.

3. Everything I told you was true, and for some reason SLU did not tell me

I know there is a requirement for GPA, my best friend did not make the cut. But that requirement is a lousy 3.0 GPA really nothing else to my knowledge (and I think that the requirement is just so they dont have to waste their time with people below a 3.0). It was done before our MCAT was taken. And as far as I recall, they never sent me any information stating that they would not support me or write me a good recommendation letter. And since this is the second time I applied, I asked twice for them to send that letter out. Even the second time did they not tell me. I love SLU, but I can make an argument either way that they would let something like this happen to me. (fun fact: SLU just enacted a minimum MCAT score for incoming med scholars since scores were so low... its a 23).

4. There was a miscommunication.

Maybe they did send me a letter or email saying that I should not apply to medical school. I do not remember any such email sent to me, or any follow up information to talk about improving my application. I remember pretty clearly: I got a picture taken for them, wrote them a committee letter, sat down with an interview I just met for 30 minutes, and then sent the names of the schools I applied to.

I honestly can't say why I was not told about it, I can tell you my friends did not know either whether SLU wrote them a positive letter or not. I have doubts myself of why SLU would write me a bad letter, as they are a school that holds their prestige to a high value. I will be having a meeting with UofC to talk about my application and hope they can shed some light on committee letter (I applied there: they give students that get rejected from them an opportunity to an interview to find out ways to improve their application. And yes I know... it was my "reach" school.)

 

[IslandStyle808]

There is definitely something subjective about asking for a letter of recommendation, especially from pre-medical committees. I am not sure how they work since my school does not have one. You may have given a wrong first impression with the person you spoke with. This is something that cannot be erased so easily. Is there someone else you can talk to on the committee? I suggest trying to take that route. If this does not work, then just get individual letters.

 

[Afford]

I would go back and ask if you could be re-evaluated by the committee and if not, I would scrap the committee letter and just use your letters of recommendation on their own. From what I know, numbers get you an interview, but the interview+letters of recommendation/committee letter gets you an acceptance. Also, your numbers are fine. They're definitely good enough to get into an MD school.

 

[Mad Jack]

Don't use committees. They are a waste of time and bite you in the ass.

 

[CardiacLion]

This is so interesting because the school I went to, a public institution, didn't even "interview" us for a committee eval.

Essentially if you wanted to go to a professional school you filled out a form, wrote a brief essay, and you essentially got a committee eval. Not sure how it would fair for a pos/neg eval, considering I met my pre-med advisor once for maybe all of 90 seconds, and the rest of the impression was likely conceived by the documents I submitted to him and my AACOMAS/AMCAS application.

Glad I went to a public school, saved money, and the BS sucking up to advisors.

 

[HinduHammer]

Yeah I'm sorry, not trying to hate on the guy, but something just doesn't add up here. I went to washu, I'm from St. Louis, I know plenty of people from SLU. I don't think the committee would have given this person a 2/5 without reason. I also don't think the committee letter is the only reason this person didn't get into medical school. OP, I wish you luck in your life.

 

[adimelon]

Yeah I'm sorry, not trying to hate on the guy, but something just doesn't add up here. I went to washu, I'm from St. Louis, I know plenty of people from SLU. I don't think the committee would have given this person a 2/5 without reason. I also don't think the committee letter is the only reason this person didn't get into medical school. OP, I wish you luck in your life.

Hey dude I don't think the OP is here to get Sh#$ on by you. He is here to seek help. If you can't provide constructive criticism, its best not to butcher someone's character without knowing them. Innocent until proven guilty. You don't need to make remarks or comments without having any evidence. If you don't buy his story, then don't. But learn to respect other peopl . You're gonna be a future physician and you are definitely going to have patients who will have bizzarre stories and you can't behave the same way you did with the OP...

OP, I feel bad for you, but you need to talk to your premed committee. If they are willing to help out and reconsidering writing a new letter then grea . If not, then apply using individual letters. I am in an SMP programs and tons of my friends are NOT using committee letters and they have all interviewed and many of them have even been accepted to MD program .

 

[HinduHammer]

Hey dude I don't think the OP is here to get Sh#$ on by you. He is here to seek help. If you can't provide constructive criticism, its best not to butcher someone's character without knowing them. Innocent until proven guilty. You don't need to make remarks or comments without having any evidence. If you don't buy his story, then don't. But learn to respect other peopl . You're gonna be a future physician and you are definitely going to have patients who will have bizzarre stories and you can't behave the same way you did with the OP...

OP, I feel bad for you, but you need to talk to your premed committee. If they are willing to help out and reconsidering writing a new letter then grea . If not, then apply using individual letters. I am in an SMP programs and tons of my friends are NOT using committee letters and they have all interviewed and many of them have even been accepted to MD program .

Actually, calling someone on their BS is a very valid form of criticism and help, one of the most valid in my opinion, and one that this person probably needs more of. I know I certainly did when I was his age. I mean, seriously, the OP is blaming the fact that he's Indian for not getting into med school, give me a break.

Further, speaking of talking down to people...This isn't a court of law and "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't really fly here, in fact the more correct slogan for you might be "the pot calling the kettle black." You definitely do not know me and are some 23-year old in an SMP telling me what's what....seriously, dude. I have worked in healthcare and with addicts and volunteer in the county jail, probably way more than you, so I am very familiar with bizarre stories and am fairly confident in my deductive skills. Frankly you are being really arrogant and its taking some restraint for me to leave it at that.

Further, I was reluctant to mention this before for the OP's sake but now I realize that for posterity I should disclose my girlfriend goes to SLU and knows this guy from Indian dance club or something, so I'm not "butchering his character" entirely without knowing him. I have heard stories about this dude. I didn't want to call him out earlier, but, hey, it is what it is. Tip for anyone reading this: Don't make a username with your first initial and last name... Though, OP if you're reading this, I seriously do wish you luck in your life and endeavors, and still seriously suggest you look in the mirror at your motivation to practice medicine and serve others.

 

[CardiacLion]

Actually, calling someone on their BS is a very valid form of criticism and help, one of the most valid in my opinion, and one that this person probably needs more of. I know I certainly did when I was his age. I mean, seriously, the OP is blaming the fact that he's Indian for not getting into med school, give me a break.

Further, speaking of talking down to people...This isn't a court of law and "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't really fly here, in fact the more correct slogan for you might be "the pot calling the kettle black." You definitely do not know me and are some 23-year old in an SMP telling me what's what....seriously, dude. I have worked in healthcare and with addicts and volunteer in the county jail, probably way more than you, so I am very familiar with bizarre stories and am fairly confident in my deductive skills. Frankly you are being really arrogant and its taking some restraint for me to leave it at that.

Further, I was reluctant to mention this before for the OP's sake but now I realize that for posterity I should disclose my girlfriend goes to SLU and knows this guy from Indian dance club or something, so I'm not "butchering his character" entirely without knowing him. I have heard stories about this dude. I didn't want to call him out earlier, but, hey, it is what it is. Tip for anyone reading this: Don't make a username with your first initial and last name... Though, OP if you're reading this, I seriously do wish you luck in your life and endeavors, and still seriously suggest you look in the mirror at your motivation to practice medicine and serve others.

Damn. This just got real for OP, like one of those Indian serials.

 

[heyit'sme]

Whoa @HinduHammer you're just making it sound even worse calling OP out, saying you actually know him, but hiding behind your username (oddly enough, I know exactly who you are from your posts in the Mizzou thread, but I'll just leave it at that...). If you really were doing this to provide him with constructive criticism, then why couldn't you do it with a little more compassion and empathy. You are already accepted into medical school, you are going to be a doctor, no need to put other people down. In the wise words of Taylor Swift, "Why you gotta be so mean?"

 

[tpathiyil]

Gah I come back to this thread always surprised.

1. I went to my university this past week, and talked to the committee. They could not tell me what was in the actual letter, but we went over my interview junior year with the counselor that was in charge of reporting to the Committee. In it, the counselor basically said I didnt have too much EC related to medicine and that my experiences were mainly indirect. Make sense so I can't blame them. Also, the professor wrote that I was very nervous and basically sucked at interviewing haha, which knowing me it is most likely true. Since that interview I worked as a scribe, volunteering, and shadowing. The adviser I was talking to said that if I wanted to apply to not use it. There policy is that they could only update Committee letter and not make new ones, but we talk about ways to get LOR from professors.

2. Thankfully, I got into my top-med school choice actually. So thank you for all your guys help and support.

3. Lol, I honestly didn't know we shouldn't put our real name on here because people are gonna call you out say things. Thanks for the tip though HinduHammer! Since this post was meant for helpful information about what students should do, but has devolved into my character, I am gonna stop posting on here and see if I can delete any post that are not helpful.

In Summary: Things you should do when you suspect a bad committee letter
-Figure out why they might have written you a bad letter
-If it is a motivational thing, think deeply about whether you really want to pursue medicine.
-Email your pre-health office to schedule a meeting
-Ask to go over the committee letter or at least the interviewer's notes
-Talk to your pre-health adviser A. Whether you should use it again, B. If you can make a new one, C. What are the improvements you need to make D. What are the alternatives to Committee Letter
-If you can, try emailing your professors for LOR. I found out that the letters that my professors wrote for my Pre-health Committee Letter ARE NOT the same thing as a Letter of Recommendation. Talk with your professor and adviser about this.

Thanks guys.

 

[tpathiyil]

Damn. This just got real for OP, like one of those Indian serials.

LOL except I didn't say anything. OH well this post is getting scrapped anyways.

 

[oldstock]

Gah I come back to this thread always surprised.

1. I went to my university this past week, and talked to the committee. They could not tell me what was in the actual letter, but we went over my interview junior year with the counselor that was in charge of reporting to the Committee. In it, the counselor basically said I didnt have too much EC related to medicine and that my experiences were mainly indirect. Make sense so I can't blame them. Also, the professor wrote that I was very nervous and basically sucked at interviewing haha, which knowing me it is most likely true. Since that interview I worked as a scribe, volunteering, and shadowing. The adviser I was talking to said that if I wanted to apply to not use it. There policy is that they could only update Committee letter and not make new ones, but we talk about ways to get LOR from professors.

2. Thankfully, I got into my top-med school choice actually. So thank you for all your guys help and support.

3. Lol, I honestly didn't know we shouldn't put our real name on here because people are gonna call you out say things. Thanks for the tip though HinduHammer! Since this post was meant for helpful information about what students should do, but has devolved into my character, I am gonna stop posting on here and see if I can delete any post that are not helpful.

In Summary: Things you should do when you suspect a bad committee letter
-Figure out why they might have written you a bad letter
-If it is a motivational thing, think deeply about whether you really want to pursue medicine.
-Email your pre-health office to schedule a meeting
-Ask to go over the committee letter or at least the interviewer's notes
-Talk to your pre-health adviser A. Whether you should use it again, B. If you can make a new one, C. What are the improvements you need to make D. What are the alternatives to Committee Letter
-If you can, try emailing your professors for LOR. I found out that the letters that my professors wrote for my Pre-health Committee Letter ARE NOT the same thing as a Letter of Recommendation. Talk with your professor and adviser about this.

Thanks guys.

good posts !!

Did you find out what your professor wrote in the letter for the Pre-Health Committee Letter ?? How is that one different from the LOR he wrote for you ??

 

[tpathiyil]

So what happens for my university committee letter is that Pre-health makes the actual Letter. Its only one letter. But I have to get professors to submit kinda like a survey: They rate you on some things and write some comments about you to give the committee a better picture of your work ethic. But its not in like a LOR form, its more informal if anything.

 

[LAtoSTL]

.

 

[tpathiyil]

Sorry, just stumbling onto this. Not to add flame to the fire but tpathiyil I know exactly where you're coming from. I had SLU write me a committee letter and one of my interviewers last year commented that "I sound like a great candidate looking at my application but my committee letter doesn't live up to it". I went through it a couple years ago so I'm sure it's a little different now with all the staff changes but I 100% know where you're coming from. I was angry too and felt that I should've been given warning. Especially being an office that is supposed to help you get to med school, I felt that being a LOR, they should've told me not to use the letter or denied me the opportunity to submit it to med schools if they weren't recommending me. I did what you did and talked with the pre-health office about the issue just like you did to figure out how to rectify the situation. I'm glad everything worked out for you though! No matter what anyone says, you made it to an acceptance so be proud!

Hey thanks man! I hope you had good fortune too