I was thinking... {re: the numbers game}

[shamthis]

...about Monster2's effect on people. For those of you who do not know Monster2, he has been accused of being a troll, a bastard, and so on. His words are often judgemental, cold, and wrong. But he does represent reality, too.

Admissions committees get an unbelieveable number of applications (Northwestern gets 1/5 of US applicants) every year. Their first screening is often coarse, it HAS to be- and time constraints often prohibit committees from giving applicants "a chance" by looking past numbers. Many of you accused the 'monster' of not being fair or having a heart. Truth is, medical school admissions committees probably hold a similar mindset as Monster2. Obviously, they're not as cold, but you get the point.

I post this because I fell on the good side of the numbers tree last year. Not that my credentials were stellar, but I went to a good University and I played sports for all four years. I received a handful of invitations to interview early, and I was dead set on getting in...that projected in my interviews as arrogance and expectation.

I was on Cloud 9, but my essay was horrible (HORRIBLE); it began with, "In ten years I will specialize in some type of delicate hand or facial surgery." Yeah. That bad.

When I got rejected from waitlist #3 of 3 waitlists three days ago, after 2 post-interview rejections, I was devastated. Why? Because I expected admission. I was unappreciative and unrealistic. And because schools "gave me a deeper look" for the first time. I wish I had a Monster2 under my bed, a realist in my life. Dreaming yields utter despair sometimes. At least for me it did.

Always appreciate a realist. Yes, he or she may be a real jerk, but humility and respect for the medical profession are essential. I love you, Tweetie, but you shouldn't have expected an interview from Mayo. Nobody should. I think you might have, and it was your first choice, and now you're ultra-blue. Everyone should take a step back and prepare more for the worse than the better. You'll be surprised every now and then, and you'll end up with an unrivaled sense of satisfaction. You will "beat the system".

Realistically,
Chamois This

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[laviddee]

well said and well written.

i'm not sure of who that guy is, but i'm sure that some people appreciate his candidness while others perhaps think that there are better ways to be realists. I personally think one can be a realist without being rude. Just like how you stated it ... you shouldn't expect to get in... that's just the way it is in med school admissions.

for you, i am sorry that you didn't get in this year. trust me when i tell you i know what you're feeling. i applied 2 years ago begrudgingly at the behest of my parents and that unwillingness to apply on my part showed itself as well.. (sending everything in the last week of deadlines, only finishing 1 secondary). Well I'm a better applicant now, and i'm sure you are as well b/c you learned alot from the 1st time around. Are you applying for 2003?

 

[shamthis]

Thanks for the kind words and support. I am a reapplicant for Fall 2003 admission.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

Hi ShamThis,
Thanks for the candid post. I agree with everything that you said, except one. No, I did not even hope for an interview with Mayo. Yet, I felt broken when I realized i won't be getting one either. The issue is long dead now, but I just wanted to say that I have absolutely been in love with that school for years now. I was hoping that I could atleast make it to the phone call part. Gosh, it's a good school. But I realize there's a better place for me out there, where I may even be happier. I think about what you've gone through, and I think that my loss is far, far less than yours. My heart goes out to you and other reapplicants.

I am rooting for you this season. Keep me informed with good news!! May the force be with us all.

 

[Street Philosopher]

i agree 100%

 

[tBw]

Shamthis - the problem most people had with monster2 is that he appeared on this board and immediately started posting the most offensive, hurtful, provoking flames. While there may have been nuggets of truth in what he said, none of it was constructive. It is one thing to tell someone they are being unrealistic or preferably do this and subsequently point out ways you feel they might improve, it is quite another to state as he did that "everyone serious into applying to medical schools should aim for 3.8s. Give an oragutan a bag of books and pencils and send it to school and it'll get a 3.1 GPA". That kind of statement is not intended to help, it's intended to offend. All of us can do with constructive criticism from time to time, and this should always be welcome. But if there is nothing constructive, and the comments are merely derogatory, then one should expect such comments not to be welcome.

Different people use this board for different ends and in different ways. Sometimes people post merely for information. Sometimes they vent. Sometimes they come here when they are really down and just need picking up. In the post regarding the Mayo rejection Tweetie was doing the latter of these - she wasn't saying she was outraged and angry about the admissions process - she was down about disappointing news. I believe people should dream, should aim high, and should 'reach' if that will make them happy. It is reasonable to feel disappointed, regardless of how far of a reach one was making, when dreams do not work out. That doesn't mean we were wrong to dream in the first place. Sometimes dreams work out.

While all dreams should be tempered with reality I personally do not prefer to take the route of assuming everything will not work out. Why should I be miserable all the time? I believe everything will work, one way or another (even if that way is not medical school). I prefer to be happy 99% of the time and sad 1%, rather than the other way round. Call me a fool, but at the end of the day, I've still been happy 99% of the time - and what more can you ask of life?

You comment that when you were let off the 3rd of 3 waitlists you were devastated. How would you have felt if when that happened, you posted about it, and monster2 posted "well, what the hell did you expect, orangutans are smarter than you". I don't call that kind of response realistic or helpful. Now I accept 'realism' brought into your application may have helped much, much earlier in your application - before rejection - but at the point of rejection, is there really any benefit to someone just rubbing salt in the wound? That I think is the critical difference between monster2's posts and useful 'realism'.

Also, monster2 asked how anyone could allow their grades to slip below an 'A'. What a stupid question. There are many reasons why someone might not get straight A's throughout college. Perhaps monster2 has had a life without hiccups, in which case he might not be able to understand, but does that mean he will be a better doctor?

In the end I think monster2 is actually probably a pre-med who posts here normally (they are evidently familiar with the pre-med situation and med school application) but lacked the 'guts' to say what they thought under their regular name - and so registered a new one, and started flaming. monster2 undountedly does think they are very smart and 'telling it how it is'. Personally I don't think there's any need to be as venomous as he has been. Maybe he could redirect his energy to being constructive rather than just tearing people down.

Good luck with your application. I hope you find realistic constructive advice here and elesewhere, and not the kind of 'realism' that does nothing to help you.

 

[DW]

amen, boy wonder

well, at least we have a new troll for this application cycle

 

[shamthis]

Alas, the boy wonder! Great name. I have a funny feeling you misinterpreted my post. I definitely agree Monster2 was off-base, he or she way off-base. Some of his (her???) posts were bizarre and extraordinarily 'fake', but truth glimmered from the moldy crust of others. I appreciate this opportunity to reconfirm that I do not agree with Monster's monstrosity of a mindset. However, we must be realists. Dreams are important; without them we might not have airplanes, cars, Planck's constant. At the same time, when dreams are not realized, the dreamer is devastated. To prevent devastation, we can dream, but we should temper excitement with realism a la Monster2.

Do I like Monster2? No! Fake or not, does he suggest an important mentality? Yes!

Tweetie, gotcha. I am very sorry for the turnout. I misunderstood your original post. You took the right approach, and you were dealt a lousy hand...


Empathetically, Realistically,
Sham This

 

[SMW]

Very well said, boy wonder! You're a terrific writer. I'd love to read your PS.

shamthis, I think most SDNers are very realistic, pragmatic and down-to-earth, as well as helpful, caring, and sympathetic. The best thing to do about posters like Monster is ignore them completely. That way they go away faster, and don't get the satisfaction of people rising to their bait. No, I don't think s/he represents "an important mentality."

 

[jot]

new troll for this application cycle

hah - but trolls keep things interesting occasionally oh the trolls of lore - warren p cheswick, mycin (kinda), who else?

 

[SMW]

Originally posted by jot


hah - but trolls keep things interesting occasionally oh the trolls of lore - warren p cheswick, mycin (kinda), who else?

MacGuyver. Ugh.

 

[Explosivo]

Guys, just wait till school gets going in about a week or two. In my lurking days there would be a couple trolls a week during the application cycle.

Here's a couple classic troll threads I loved during my lurking years:

Tiffany(Click here: SDN Classic Thread)
Homes(Another Classic Thread)

And I'm sure there are others that for some reason I can't remember.

 

[DW]

Originally posted by Explosivo
Here's a couple classic troll threads I loved during my lurking years:

Tiffany(Click here: SDN Classic Thread)
Homes(Another Classic Thread)

wow, those are some doozies. the "homes" thread, good lord!!!!! there are about 15 different layers of flaming going on, i thought my brain was going to explode.

does anyone remember "scplnnd", something spelled like that, a few months back? he claimed he worked at nih or something, and he went around telling people with 3.7s and 31 mcats that they needed to do a post bac or they would only get into carribean schools and such? he was pretty funny. of course, dont forget the short lived pfiller

 

[kaos]

DAMN! Those threads are vicious!

 

[TheRock]

I would have to agree with Monster2... I would be a little more gentle and simply say that any grade less than a B is seriously questionable. There really is not an excuse... what would it be if there was one? "I had to work 40 hours a week, take care of 10 children and attend church for 23 hours each day..."

My message: Priorities matter.

 

[DW]

Originally posted by TheRock
I would have to agree with Monster2... I would be a little more gentle and simply say that any grade less than a B is seriously questionable. There really is not an excuse... what would it be if there was one? "I had to work 40 hours a week, take care of 10 children and attend church for 23 hours each day..."

click here

 

[tBw]

Originally posted by TheRock
I would have to agree with Monster2... I would be a little more gentle and simply say that any grade less than a B is seriously questionable. There really is not an excuse... what would it be if there was one? "I had to work 40 hours a week, take care of 10 children and attend church for 23 hours each day..."

My message: Priorities matter.

Church 23 hours a day AND working 40 hours a week? Hmmm, well if you think that's possible I assume you got an F in arithmetic as well as sympathy. What's *your* excuse?

 

[TheRock]

Okay, i realize people come on to www.studentdoctor.net for love and feeling good... i mean, anyone from anywhere in the world could come to this site with the lowest gpa and mcat possible, and some dummy out there will still say "oh, you can still do it, just make up for it in your next semester." Why don't we have any realistic people here? This site becomes more lame with such pathetic advice from people acting like they are on a ad com.
Yes, I have sympathy, but I don't dish out BS. If your going to give advice, make it sincere and real, and not give people false hope.

 

[Braindoc]

Hmmmmm.....

Sounds like we got another winner here. (Rock=Monster2????)

 

[Tweetie_bird]

Originally posted by the boy wonder


Church 23 hours a day AND working 40 hours a week? Hmmm, well if you think that's possible I assume you got an F in arithmetic as well as sympathy. What's *your* excuse?

Boy Wonder --->

<<--- Monster. ok ok, sorry. this is just a pathetic excuse to use my new gremlins. I think they're hilarious. Nevermind me.

 

[lilic]

Originally posted by TheRock
I would have to agree with Monster2... I would be a little more gentle and simply say that any grade less than a B is seriously questionable. There really is not an excuse... what would it be if there was one? "I had to work 40 hours a week, take care of 10 children and attend church for 23 hours each day..."

My message: Priorities matter.

I guess any grade less than a B isn't really a problem for an Ancient Languages major.

 

[holler79]

Originally posted by lilic


I guess any grade less than a B isn't really a problem for an Ancient Languages major.

Couldn't have said it better myself!!!

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

About what TheRock was saying, I have often been appalled at the bad advice people give on SDN. I feel bad for people looking for guidance, little realizing that the blind are leading the blind.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to speak and concede the point."

 

[agent]

Originally posted by San_Juan_Sun
About what TheRock was saying, I have often been appalled at the bad advice people give on SDN. I feel bad for people looking for guidance, little realizing that the blind are leading the blind.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to speak and concede the point."

i love all of these ppl jumping to say others offere bad advice yet they offer nothing constructive themselves..

these ppl remind me of 17 year old honors students right out of high school thinking they are going to conquer the world.. you are the fools.

 

[DW]

uhh, TheRock might not have even taken the MCAT by first glance at his signature, much less even applied yet

i agree sometimes people get way too optimistic and lovey dovey around here, but does that justify any unnecessary bashing of people enduring this oh so stressful process? hardly

would you like to hear "give an orangatan a bag of pencils and they can get a 28 on the MCAT"? i doubt so

 

[SMW]

Originally posted by San_Juan_Sun
About what TheRock was saying, I have often been appalled at the bad advice people give on SDN. I feel bad for people looking for guidance, little realizing that the blind are leading the blind.

I don't think I would have been nearly as successful as I was in last year's application cycle without the good advice I got on SDN. I am so glad I found this site. There are the occasional clueless posters, but once you've been frequenting the site for a while, one learns who to take seriously, who's always good for a laugh, and a ton of information not easily found anywhere else in the pre-med world. The search function alone is invaluable. There may be a slight tendancy of advice-givers to err on the side of optimism, but I don't think that warrants the kind of nay-saying going on here.

Good luck to everyone applying this year!!

 

[Diogenes]

I think that TheRock is almost right about one thing: people on SDN tend to be rather nice and optimistic, instead of realistic.

 

[kito]

i really think that it is a double etched sword in that us SDNers are somewhat compelled by honor and conscience to give truthful and sincere advice, but a lot of us have this profound need to preserve hope in situations where it is tough to find. i think the latter fact is more of a function of the nurturing nature of a lot of our posters, and has less to do with any malicious or deleterious intent. i think that a lot of the "you can do it with a 3.1 and a 20" posters and important, because we should remember that soothing a fellow SDNer in pain is just as important as honesty, because they don't always come to us for cold hard slaps of truth, they can often get that from adcomms and prehealth advisors. all i'm saying is that we need to reach a balance of nurturing encouragement, and honest critique, because as was implied before, both are so very important to us all.

 

[efex101]

That is why we should not engage in flaming just because someone has a different opinion. All opinions can be constructive if taken with a grain of salt. It is not good that everyone is al ra ra ra! sometimes a good dose of bad medicine is just what the doctor prescribed...hope this post makes some sense

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Here's what really concerns me (and if you don't find it constructive, then maybe you don't need to hear it). New SDN members appear daily asking for advice about their stats, their chances, where to apply, when to apply, pretty much everything under the sun. In many cases, a person answers them (often telling them what they want to hear), and that person makes LIFE CHANGING decisions based on that advice.

Many people take such info with a grain of salt. But some don't. They end up trusting someone who knows nothing about which they speak, and they'll be hurt down the road because of it.

I'm sure that many have benefitted from SDN, as I have. But it really bugs me to see so much misinformation given to those who won't know better. All I'm asking is that people give less of their own opinion, more of what they know as fact, make sure they know the difference between the two, and think twice before we post.

Zeen bredren?

 

[SMW]

People ask questions and they generally get a whole host of replies. It's generally pretty clear what the concensus of infomed SDN opinion is. I don't think anyone makes any life changing decisions based on one off-the-wall, overly optimistic estimation of his/her chances. If you don't like the advice someone is giving, just give your own. Where are the examples of all this bad advice you're bemoaning?

The thread on getting C's that DW provided the link for makes it pretty clear that one or even several C's are not the kiss of death. This is the realistic truth!

 

[efex101]

Yeah, hopefully most people do not take things said here as written in stone. Oh well.

 

[USeF]

When I read this post, I figured out the answer to the question "why do the majority of SDNers give the nice and optimistic rather than the realistic?", as Diogenes put it.

Maybe it was because I was reading the "Why do you want be a Doc" thread at the same time- I read this thinking about how doctors approach their patients with known ailments. Read this below with that mindset:

Originally posted by ankitovich
i really think that it is a double etched sword in that us SDNers are somewhat compelled by honor and conscience to give truthful and sincere advice, but a lot of us have this profound need to preserve hope in situations where it is tough to find.

It's exactly what compassionate docs are to be like to their patients! Even in the worst of times, with the notion of a disease on the horizon that could devastate the person, we still are to incite hope where others would only shake their head and tell the person that all is lost.

even more hints at the truth of the USeF compassionate SDNer theory below

i think the latter fact is more of a function of the nurturing nature of a lot of our posters, and has less to do with any malicious or deleterious intent. i think that a lot of the "you can do it with a 3.1 and a 20" posters and important, because we should remember that soothing a fellow SDNer in pain is just as important as honesty, because they don't always come to us for cold hard slaps of truth, they can often get that from adcomms and prehealth advisors. all i'm saying is that we need to reach a balance of nurturing encouragement, and honest critique, because as was implied before, both are so very important to us all.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by efex101
Yeah, hopefully most people do not take things said here as written in stone. Oh well.

At the least, they shouldn't. Most people just talk out of their ass anyway. (me included, except when I quote people )

-RA