I wasn't planning on it, but..........

[ScienceJunkie]

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You are way off base to call "Mexican" Spanish corrupt. What is the "real" Spanish? Is it the language as it exist in Spain today? I don't understand. Spanish in Spain today would be a corrupt version according to you because it includes 4000 or so words of Arabic origin. Before the Arabs conquered Spain it was the Gerrmanic Visigoths (guerra, orgullo). Where do we find an uncorrupt version of Spanish? Maybe Spanish was uncorrupt when it was still Latin.

aha good sir, i see thou hast evoked the argument of continuous gradualism against my denouncement of the abomination that is Latin American Spanish.

what i meant is that many American "Hispanics" are not taught the correct grammar of their language. they only use it everyday talk, but fail to develop their lingual skills (i.e. vocabulary). the worst part is the current trend towards pronouncing english words as if they were spanish, and taking them to mean what they do in english.

ex: to vacuum the carpet = vacumar la carpeta

vacumar is not a real verb, and "carpeta" means notebook/folder. wtf mate.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

SDN needs to accept affirmative action for what it is and stop being so bitchy every time it comes up in a thread. we aren't politicians. we can't do jack **** about it. so we need to accept it.

if i were you, i would use your "spanish" heritage as much as you possibly can. if you have a "mexican-type" last name and you have a parent who is of a URM-type heritage, then use it to your advantage. I'm pretty sure than ANY OTHER SDN'er on these boards would love to be a urm, and, if in your shoes, would gladly check the urm box. It increases your chances INSANELY!!!

 

[Creightonite]

well, i got the question... How adcoms can prove that you are not mexican? you say you look like on.... The same thing happends to the indians that applied as african-american URMs just because they looked like it.

 

[Meatwad]

well, i got the question... How adcoms can prove that you are not mexican? you say you look like on.... The same thing happends to the indians that applied as african-american URMs just because they looked like it.

... there are Indians who look like black people? I can understand skin-tone in some being passable, but as far as facial features, the two races are usually pretty different.

 

[LizzyM]

... there are Indians who look like black people? I can understand skin-tone in some being passable, but as far as facial features, the two races are usually pretty different.

Yes. Many intermarried with blacks in the late nineteen and early twentieth century.

 

[Meatwad]

Yes. Many intermarried with blacks in the late nineteen and early twentieth century.

Well they are URMs, then, aren't they, since they actually have black blood? Therefore I don't see the problem with these individuals applying as URM.

 

[kronickm]

My teacher GF had a kid (1st grade I think) once who would not believe that he was like the white kids on the inside. He insisted that his bones were black. Not really relevant but I thought it was kind of funny.

 

[Meatwad]

My teacher GF had a kid (1st grade I think) once who would not believe that he was like the white kids on the inside. He insisted that his bones were black. Not really relevant but I thought it was kind of funny.

That is pretty funny. To go even further off-topic, there is a chicken used in East Asian cuisine that has black skin and black bones. So the kid wasn't using completely ridiculous ideas to associate skin color with bone color, I guess

 

[Rzrbker]

That question is ridiculous. The whole notion of using race/ethnicity is inherently racist and discriminatory. It infuriates people because it's an illogical and ignorant policy.

Lets follow this logically... from www.dictionary.com

rac·ism
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
2.treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit : racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

If you connect the dots...it's fairly simple. It should not factor into the decision making process. Period.

 

[LizzyM]

That question is ridiculous. The whole notion of using race/ethnicity is inherently racist and discriminatory. It infuriates people because it's an illogical and ignorant policy.

Many applicants this year are not responding to that question or answering "don't know". If 37,000 applicants did it, imagine the repercussions.

Frankly, we see the information but we take it with a grain of salt. Give us some credit. We may be old but we know bull**** when we smell it.

 

[gostudy]

Some of you people are ******ed. You know why the URM status is in place. Don't try to fool yourself by asking "am I really a URM?" If you are asking that question chances are you are not.

Plus some of you are so completely clueless to the admissions process that you don't know what discrimination and diversity really are. Come on, most public state schools are required BY LAW to discriminate against people who are not residents of said state. Many qualified applicants get shafted by this. Me I have no problem as the end justifies the means. What about diversity? Among the private schools diversification does not just happen on the racial/ethnic level. There is also something known as geographical diversity and experiential diversity. A white kid who is the only applicant from North Dakota has a leg up on the white kid who is one of 30 applicants from NYC. The East Asian kid who played D1 basketball has a leg up on the East Asian kid who was a violinists in college.

The truth of the matter is that adcoms discriminate and/or diversify on many levels and it is to achieve a certain means. Most of you posting here are just pre-meds: beginners to the medical school admissions process let alone experts on the intricacies of serving on an adcom and admitting/rejecting applicants. Perhaps just perhaps these people are just a little bit smarter and seasoned than you.

 

[Drogba]

The post above mine makes many good points.

Without arguing the merits or rationale of affirmative action I'd just like to say its pretty ridiculous that anyone would assume that a Spanish descendant would fit the description of an URM as intended by affirmative action programs. Certainly, in a strict linguistic sense you are correct to say that the Iberian countries are "Hispanic." However, Hispanic = South/Central American etc is entirely consistent with the way the term is used in North America. It is pretty irrelevant what Hispanic means amongst Iberians, though I'll admit it couldn't hurt to be more specific. If Iberians were intended to be included in the categorization of Hispanic then I'd like to know where the Hellenic category is so I can check that ;]

Also, the linguistic snobbishness is a bit ridiculous. Languages are dynamic. They change due to the social context of their speakers. Vacumar may not be included in a spanish dictionary today, but it might one day ;] How do you think foreign words are incorporated into languages over time? Spanish as well as other Latin derived vernaculars were once looked down upon with the same contempt demonstrated in earlier comments of less than "perfect" Spanish. Don't make a fool of yourself by suggesting a superficial and ethnic similarity to European colonial powers constitutes an URM as intended by any adcom. The irony in that thought is too much to stand! European interests are well enough represented as it is.

 

[ScienceJunkie]

The post above mine makes many good points. Without arguing the merits or rationale of affirmative action I'd just like to say its pretty ridiculous that anyone would assume that a Spanish descendant would fit the description of an URM as intended by affirmative action programs. Certainly, in a strict linguistic sense you are correct to say that the Iberian countries are "Hispanic." However, Hispanic = South/Central American etc is entirely consistent with the way the term is used in North America. It is pretty irrelevant what Hispanic means amongst Iberians, though I'll admit it couldn't hurt to be more specific. If Iberians were intended to be included in the categorization of Hispanic then I'd like to know where the Hellenic category is so I can check that ;] Also, the linguistic snobbishness is a bit ridiculous. Languages are dynamic. They change due to the social context of their speakers. Vacumar may not be included in a spanish dictionary today, but it might one day ;] How do you think foreign words are incorporated into languages over time? Spanish as well as other Latin derived vernaculars were once looked down upon with the same contempt demonstrated in earlier comments of less than "perfect" Spanish. Don't make a fool of yourself by suggesting a superficial and ethnic similarity to European colonial powers constitutes an URM as intended by any adcom. The irony in that thought is too much to stand! European interests are well enough represented as it is.

wow you registered just to say this?

gostudy, let me throw your argument right back at you: there are fewer cultural europeans, including iberians, than there are latinos, applying to med school. IF ANYTHING, true hispanics should have a "leg up," as you would like to say, over their latino counterparts.

 

[Drogba]

I've actually been registered for a little bit, this was just my first post.

I have an interest in linguistics, colonialism and inequality, I don't see why you felt the need to comment on my motivation.

You're argument of less cultural Europeans applying to med school again ignores the fact that European interests are well represented domestically and internationally as is. Also, I doubt you have any data supporting that claim.

I would be interested in seeing your first post and establishing an objective metric to see whose was more worthwhile.

 

[PilSeungKorea]

I've actually been registered for a little bit, this was just my first post.

yeah, sure

 

[medguy83]

Whether or not the adcom's definition is correct, it's still a little underhanded to include yourself in a minority group coming from European ethnicity. My grandmother's family came from Naples Italy; she didn't even speak english until adolescence. Being 1/2 Italian, I don't remember a box that included me as a "minority". Hispanic, albeit via incorrect assumptions, is a term believed be most people to include those hailing from central/south America, puerto rico, etc. If Europe were suddenly included in the mix practically everyone could claim URM status. I also think your chances of acceptance would be threatened since most adcoms would see you as a dishonest person looking for any small technicality to get your foot in the door.

 

[gostudy]

wow you registered just to say this?

gostudy, let me throw your argument right back at you: there are fewer cultural europeans, including iberians, than there are latinos, applying to med school. IF ANYTHING, true hispanics should have a "leg up," as you would like to say, over their latino counterparts.

Where is your evidence that cultural europeans don't have a leg up?

 

[ScienceJunkie]

You're argument of less cultural Europeans applying to med school again ignores the fact that European interests are well represented domestically and internationally as is. Also, I doubt you have any data supporting that claim.

your question doesn't make any sense. what are you talking about? i'm talking about how well cultured Hispanics, regardless of their country of origin (Iberia included), should have a leg up over less cultured (i.e., many Latino applicants who benefit from their skin being dark) Hispanic applicants.

what i'm trying to get across is that if adcoms want hispanic diversity, i take it they mean those who can speak the language and have a unique culture. therefore, iberians who are more cultured than their latin american counterparts should not only be considered Hispanic URM, but also taken over those whose who know nothing of their Latino heritage but simply have dark skin. the point here is that skin should not matter when qualifying what "hispanic" is--culture and language should. the "you're too white, you're european, therefore you're not really Hispanic" argument is racist since it's based on skin color.

Also, I doubt you have any data supporting that claim.

Where is your evidence that cultural europeans don't have a leg up?

lol @ the data freaks.

drogba: jesus man, you're totally misconstruing what i'm trying to say. i could give a rat's arse about European interests. (sounds like someone is a bit bitter about what a bunch of bearded men did a few centuries ago. oh noess!!111 teh europeanz colonializmz gots to be stopzed!!!11eleventyone1)

gostudy: i'm not arguing that at all; i'm saying that as cultural hispanics, iberians should be treated as Hispanic URM. that's all.

 

[gostudy]

lol @ the data freaks.

gostudy: i'm not arguing that at all; i'm saying that as cultural hispanics, iberians should be treated as Hispanic URM. that's all.

Welcome to SDN man. You're argument goes nowhere around these parts without data to back it up. Otherwise you're just making things up out of thin air unless you are stating that what you write is anecdotal. Yes I agree with you that URM theoretically can be defined as any group that is under-represented in society. But I ask you, what is the purpose of including URM status in med school applications? What are adcoms trying to achieve?

 

[Drogba]

URM status is not about having all the cultures of the world represented in an incoming class as far as I can deduce. Why should hispanic CULTURE be more valuable than any other culture. Like I said where is the hellenic check box? Affirmative action is about addressing the marginalization of various minority groups. I'm not defending or supporting this but to argue that white europeans of spanish origin should fall under the hispanic categorization as far as affirmative action is concerned is ludicrous.
Oh and thanks for being my grammar check science junkie. Maybe I can send you all my essays from now on and you can proofread them for me?

 

[cardboardearrin]

i'm sorry, i don't think this guy heard you...could you repeat that ridiculous generalization?

Thierry Henry!

Not be completely off-topic, but I'm still upset about his move to Barcelona...

 

[Drogba]

Oh cmon, the gunners are doing better than they have in many years and barcelona are playing beautifully. I love barca, don't let my nick fool you (I am a chelsea fan too ;], hard times...).

 

[ScienceJunkie]

zomg if you two put your heads together and worked this out, it just...oh my lord, yes--it just might work out!!!

But I ask you, what is the purpose of including URM status in med school applications? What are adcoms trying to achieve?

+

Why should hispanic CULTURE be more valuable than any other culture. Like I said where is the hellenic check box? Affirmative action is about addressing the marginalization of various minority groups. I'm not defending or supporting this but to argue that white europeans of spanish origin should fall under the hispanic categorization as far as affirmative action is concerned is ludicrous.

=

teh solutionzz!!!!11

um, good question, why should hispanics be anymore important? i

gostudy and druggie-er, i mean, drogba- Hispanic culture should matter more than Hispanic features. i.e., culture should be more important than skin color. if affirmative action isn't about culture, then what do you mean by "minority"? there IS no such thing as race--it's a cultural construct. if by minority you mean black/yellow/white then...well, what the heck does somebody's skin color reflect of how they are, for good or for bad? culturally speaking, Hispanics are minorities. thus, regardless of skin color, Hispanic minorities are those who are culturally Hispanic.

to throw culture out the window in favor of mere melanin concentration is worthless.

adcoms are trying to achieve a fuller representation of URM--that is, cultures, and thus the mentality carried by its members, that are not the norm. it comes down to getting people with different backgrounds--and that's where culture, not skin tone, makes all the difference.

Oh and thanks for being my grammar check science junkie. Maybe I can send you all my essays from now on and you can proofread them for me?

"ScienceJunkie", thanks



venga ya hombre.

 

[amolamedicina]

zomg if you two put your heads together and worked this out, it just...oh my lord, yes--it just might work out!!!




+



=

teh solutionzz!!!!11

um, good question, why should hispanics be anymore important? i

gostudy and druggie-er, i mean, drogba- Hispanic culture should matter more than Hispanic features. i.e., culture should be more important than skin color. if affirmative action isn't about culture, then what do you mean by "minority"? there IS no such thing as race--it's a cultural construct. if by minority you mean black/yellow/white then...well, what the heck does somebody's skin color reflect of how they are, for good or for bad? culturally speaking, Hispanics are minorities. thus, regardless of skin color, Hispanic minorities are those who are culturally Hispanic.

to throw culture out the window in favor of mere melanin concentration is worthless.

adcoms are trying to achieve a fuller representation of URM--that is, cultures, and thus the mentality carried by its members, that are not the norm. it comes down to getting people with different backgrounds--and that's where culture, not skin tone, makes all the difference.





"ScienceJunkie", thanks



venga ya hombre.

Yo estoy de acuerdo en que el color de la piel no deberia importar. Ahi muchos latino americanos que tienen piel blanca, no todos somos morenos. La razon, en mi opinion, por la que URM deberia existir es para darle ventaja a estudiantes en desventaja. Estudiantes que conocen su cultura, saben hablar el lenguage, ser parte de una minoria que decea en el futuro ayudar a otros en desventaja.

Por ejemplo yo no clasificaria URM a una persona nacida en los Estados Unidos, con padres que tienen dinero y ni siquiera saben hablar español. URM deberian ser solamente para personas involucradas en su cultura y que decean en el futuro servir a la comunidad Hispana.

Yo soy Mexicana y naci y creci en Mexico. LLegue a este Pais hace cuatro años. Mis padres no tienen dinero. Yo seria la primera en la familia en asistir a la universidad. Conosco a mi cultura y deceo servir a mi comunidad hispana en el futuro. Yo no pienso que una persona que ni siquiera sabe hablar español, aunque sus padres sean hispanos, tiene derecho a ser considerado URM. Esto es una pendejada!

Brenda

 

[wood41]

you can just put both spanish and polish in the ethnicity portion. med schools will review it however they see fit. urm or not...

 

[emttim]

LMFAO!!!!

 

[Drogba]

Brenda,

Affirmative action is hardly a perfect system. Obviously it would take extra time to assess cultural awareness and there is no way to guarantee that anyone admitted as an URM would go on to serve their community. That said, serving one's community does not only mean going out and treating the underserved but also means fighting for professional recognition etc. I disagree that not knowing Spanish disqualifies someone from being a hispanic URM. Not knowing Spanish is not going to make you less susceptible to discrimination. Its amazing how many people are responding without recognizing that affirmative action after all was conceived of to countereffect discrimination not just to create a balanced class profile culturally.

Also, I for example might want to treat underserved populations even though my cultural does not match theirs. How can adcoms judge my intentions? This is a problematic argument for inclusion as an URM.

ScienceJunkie,

As far as skin tone not making a difference, I refer you to the great body of literature that suggests that the darkness of your skin has historically had a great difference. A black and a white French person may have very similar cultural background but the discrimination faced by them is going to be a function of race and not ethnicity in most cases.

Again, I don't think affirmative action is perfect in many ways but its important to have minority representation. If you look at the health status of the populations listed as URM on application you will notice that it is much lower than the health status of white americans, classed by RACE and nothing else. I doubt that argument can be made that European Spanish Americans have the same lower health status.

 

[ladyluck3]

Yo estoy de acuerdo en que el color de la piel no deberia importar. Ahi muchos latino americanos que tienen piel blanca, no todos somos morenos. La razon, en mi opinion, por la que URM deberia existir es para darle ventaja a estudiantes en desventaja. Estudiantes que conocen su cultura, saben hablar el lenguage, ser parte de una minoria que decea en el futuro ayudar a otros en desventaja.

Por ejemplo yo no clasificaria URM a una persona nacida en los Estados Unidos, con padres que tienen dinero y ni siquiera saben hablar español. URM deberian ser solamente para personas involucradas en su cultura y que decean en el futuro servir a la comunidad Hispana.

Yo soy Mexicana y naci y creci en Mexico. LLegue a este Pais hace cuatro años. Mis padres no tienen dinero. Yo seria la primera en la familia en asistir a la universidad. Conosco a mi cultura y deceo servir a mi comunidad hispana en el futuro. Yo no pienso que una persona que ni siquiera sabe hablar español, aunque sus padres sean hispanos, tiene derecho a ser considerado URM. Esto es una pendejada!

Brenda

i'm glad i'm fluent in spanish...otherwise this post would have completely gone over my head!


(not sarcasm)

 

[cardboardearrin]

Oh cmon, the gunners are doing better than they have in many years and barcelona are playing beautifully. I love barca, don't let my nick fool you (I am a chelsea fan too ;], hard times...).

Good point, I love me my Gunners, and they've been rockin' it.

 

[Drogba]

I wish more people in the US were fanatical about european soccer ;[. The british expats are pretty amusing to hang around though... drinking their guiness at 10am.

 

[cardboardearrin]

I wonder what the true definition of Hispanic actually is. Are Brazilians hispanic? Oh, so confusing.

 

[2008orbust]

. Give us some credit. We may be old but we know bull**** when we smell it.

...and that is why we love our lizzy.

 

[Meatwad]

I'm Iberian, my parents immigrated from Portugal, and I've never considered myself Hispanic. However, it certainly did get me wondering what the true definition of Hispanic actually is. Are Brazilians hispanic? Oh, so confusing.

Ha, the term Brazilian could open up a huge field of debate. If someone's ancestors moved to Brazil in 1800 from Japan, and only intermarried with other Japanese in Brazil for the past 200 years, are they Brazilian or Japanese? If they are Brazilian, and therefore South American, can they claim to be hispanic? This is where the system needs to be more clear or it breaks down.

 

[searun]

Too bad you are beating a dead horse...people have already made dog food out of that topic
How about discussing how badly the Trojans played on Saturday...pissed me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must be really upset after the Stanford game. God that was fantastic. And USC still has to play Cal and Oregon. I can't wait to see what happens in Eugene in a couple of weeks. The Trojans will be befuddled and bedazzled by the Oregon offense. Go Ducks!

 

[gostudy]

Straight from the horses mouth:

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf

 

[GoHop]

Straight from the horses mouth:

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf

that basically said nothing......URM went from being confined to mexicans, PR's, african americans and native americans to a variable term that could mean any group....that only makes it more vague.