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If doctors are so miserable & burnt out, why do so many of their kids still want to go to medical school?
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like dentistry?Are you trying to bring people over to the dark side?
LOL trust me on this one, dentistry has a ton of problems right now!
But I'll stand by my earlier statements. I truly believe being miserable is something you can control as either a physician or a dentist. Most of us will earn more than enough to live comfortable lives, which is something that can't be said of the overall general population.
Remember all those volunteer hours pre-dents and pre-meds put in to help people in need? Those people have it much much worse than us. I'm only a lowly pre-dent, yet I'm still grateful to be where I am today. I've been humbled by looking at how bad the average person in this country has it. There's no doubt dentists and physicians have tough lives, long grueling education etc. But I still believe we can be happy people
You;re pre dental.LOL trust me on this one, dentistry has a ton of problems right now!
But I'll stand by my earlier statements. I truly believe being miserable is something you can control as either a physician or a dentist. Most of us will earn more than enough to live comfortable lives, which is something that can't be said of the overall general population.
Remember all those volunteer hours pre-dents and pre-meds put in to help people in need? Those people have it much much worse than us. I'm only a lowly pre-dent, yet I'm still grateful to be where I am today. I've been humbled by looking at how bad the average person in this country has it. There's no doubt dentists and physicians have tough lives, long grueling education etc. But I still believe we can be happy people
You have no idea what you speak of...
especially the climate to which medical proessionals have found themselves in.
So STOP..
We know there are a lot of miserable people.
Someone always has it worse.
Thats like me saying to a patient you lost your leg in a car accident, I know youre in pain, but my next patient lost both legs, so you should consider yourself lucky
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No one thinks the burnout will happen to them that's part of the reason.
Medical students have an pretty exaggerated sense of self-importance, so they often feel that since medicine is a "calling" they will be protected from the burnout. They somehow aren't like the many attendings who burned out but once felt the same way.
Medical students have an pretty exaggerated sense of self-importance, so they often feel that since medicine is a "calling" they will be protected from the burnout. They somehow aren't like the many attendings who burned out but once felt the same way.
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Alright man, I'll STOP.
Just don't suck pre-meds into your doom and gloom. IMO they are going into a very respectable career and deserve to be happy and proud of themselves.
I agree they deserve to be happy and they ARE going into a respectable career. What I say or anybody seasoned says should not change that. The worst thing that can happen from what we say is opening peoples eyes. There are plenty of articles on physician burnout, moral injury, physician suicides etc etc. if one is interested.
These things WON't be solved by saying... "Hey choose another career if youre not happy".
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You don't need to tell me man, I'm going into a profession which has the highest debt burden of any profession, and a suicide rate up there with physicians. And a lot of people don't even respect us, they hate us lmao.
Whose eyes are you trying to open? Pre-meds or the general public?
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Any mentally stable human being would, purely instinctually, assume that the physician who has experienced the most arduous career path in the world (personal sacrifices, cumulative hours put into training, the debt extent, working for human lives etc.) is miserable when the top physicians barely reach 1 million $/year (2.5 million/year is exaggerated, the 26 million/year is extremely common for those "entertainers") while you have fking toddlers rake in 26 million USD/year through Youtube recording a few fking 10 minute videos, lazy scum who decide to chase prostitution to cop out and through luck end up being a billionaire (Kim Kardashian) or work on a hobby gaming project for 2-3 years and then sell it Microsoft for a whopping 2.5 billion USD (Markus Persson).
If the top academics (doctors) raked in money similar to that the top entertainers, aka 8 figures/year working 10-15 hours/week (don't anyone dare tell me making a few 10 minute youtube videos take 80+ hours/week, more like 6 hours/week as I do it myself) doctors wouldn't be as miserable. Period. They have all right to be that today though. Sad.
Do you really think the Kim Kardashians, YouTube celebrities, etc. of the world really feel a sense of intrinsic, personal satisfaction? Look at all the examples of rich celebrities with drug, mental health, criminal problems...it might sound cliche, but I really don't think happiness is linearly correlated with net worth past a certain point.
That being said, yes, I wish the system did not extract as much from physicians in terms of personal sacrifices that it currently does. I wish the U.S. healthcare system operated more similarly to the Scandanavian model, which I imagine produces happier doctors overall.
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You mean like when you talk about FM income?
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It is a public forum and everyone is entitled to a voice and opinion. Notwithstanding it also doesn't stop angry keyboard warriors from trolling and making snide remarks which offer no real contribution to the conversation but harsh criticism. It's true people who are not in the exactly same profession may not understand the job fully, but it shouldn't stop them from offering advice based on their own life experiences; sometimes a different perspective externally is helpful and insightful. No need to be an arrogant asshat about it mate. You can choose to be many things in life; at least choose to be kind.
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I think you make good points overall - the grass is greener mentality does lead to a lot of dissatisfaction if people focus too much on it. Social media has a way of exacerbating this too when people look at other people's lives and get the impression that they didn't succeed or something because their experiences don't match up to what they're seeing online.
I disagree about wondering why the thread is still going.. it's an interesting discussion given the seeming disconnect between all the articles we see about burnout, and yet people keep choosing the profession.
I am simply pointing out that if you are not in the know, please refrain from weighing in because there are people on here looking for real advice from people who are experienced and reading toothjockeys take on what it is to be a physician when he is predental . people may take what he says to heart . I see it all over this forum and it needs to be called out. His idea of why doctorsa re miserable is waaayyy off. and not even in the top 100 reasons..
I get freedom of speech and all. I don't wanna take that away from him but at the same time what he is saying may be harmful to some reading it.
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My bad homie, I was tryna be uplifting to pre-meds, but I can see how it came off as I was dismissing problems physicians have. I apologize
Let's be honest here! People tend to exaggerate their struggle.
Youre right people do exaggerate. Not in this case though. The suckiness, is all true.!!
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Social media is a very big problem. People inherently measure their success by comparing themselves to those around them, and now, "those around them" is the entire country and beyond. You're bound to feel small and unsuccessful. I think living somewhere with a strong community vibe and keeping yourself off of social media goes a long way. We really aren't as rational as we'd like to think we are when it comes to things like these.
Either way, the world is so crazy these days you're better off not comparing yourself to anyone, but I know that's very hard to do. Everyone wants to fit in somewhere.
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I had it explained to me by a nice lady police officer once:
Healthcare/many LEOs/Fire/EMS etc.often suffer from what she refers to as the "helping sickness." It's a weird savior complex thing where people can only see themselves doing something that helps others in some tangible way.
I thought it was an interesting perspective, and it did make sense for me. I know that doesn't cover *everyone,* but for a decent chunk I bet that has something to do with it.
Healthcare/many LEOs/Fire/EMS etc.often suffer from what she refers to as the "helping sickness." It's a weird savior complex thing where people can only see themselves doing something that helps others in some tangible way.
I thought it was an interesting perspective, and it did make sense for me. I know that doesn't cover *everyone,* but for a decent chunk I bet that has something to do with it.
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Im here for the pettiness..
Yeah FM docs are giving the profession a bad rap... These guys don't talk about having elevator in their homes when I am in the physician's lounge.
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I agree with the above poster that medicine is a bit worse than other fields at thinking the grass is greener elsewhere. I don’t have a good explanation why, but complaining is pervasive and contagious in healthcare.
My sister is a teacher. She makes far less than me. She’s starting work a good hour before me, and stays up late working on lesson plans, worrying about whether her kids will pass and graduate or if their lives will go off the rails.
My brother... well he goes on scientific cruises all the time and has a pretty awesome job...
You can read about literally every field having issues with burnout. The problem is most people are only reading about burnout issues in their own field, and perhaps a few critical ones like airline pilots, etc.
I do think most pre-meds should work before going to medical school. It gives perspective. I was overworked over the last year-I worked far more than even intern year. Was on essentially 24/7/365. It was brutal. But it helped to know I was making a difference and that my income was commensurate with my efforts. And it was still more fun than any other job I had.
Life can always be worse. It can also always be better. Instead of complaining about what can make it better (which I am certainly guilty of), do something and actually make it better.
My sister is a teacher. She makes far less than me. She’s starting work a good hour before me, and stays up late working on lesson plans, worrying about whether her kids will pass and graduate or if their lives will go off the rails.
My brother... well he goes on scientific cruises all the time and has a pretty awesome job...
You can read about literally every field having issues with burnout. The problem is most people are only reading about burnout issues in their own field, and perhaps a few critical ones like airline pilots, etc.
I do think most pre-meds should work before going to medical school. It gives perspective. I was overworked over the last year-I worked far more than even intern year. Was on essentially 24/7/365. It was brutal. But it helped to know I was making a difference and that my income was commensurate with my efforts. And it was still more fun than any other job I had.
Life can always be worse. It can also always be better. Instead of complaining about what can make it better (which I am certainly guilty of), do something and actually make it better.
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Very true. I worked a lot of odd jobs including one at Costco with all the forklift guys in the morning (3-10am), and while the job was great at the time I couldn't imagine doing it for the rest of my life and making a career out of it like they had. I am very grateful that people are willing to do jobs like that though. It makes my life a lot better. Medicine is mentally stimulating, it pays wells, and it's well respected. Even with the risk of burnout, it is a wonderful career.
You havent even started yet. You should not weigh in.
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You're right, but this thread is about encouraging kids to go into medicine. I was encouraged even with all the doom and gloom out there. I should have left the caveat that my evidence is anecdotal because I have lots of physicians in the family (father, multiple uncles, multiple cousins). I don't personally have experience being a physician.
It should be about speaking about realities. Not glorifying a situation when it should not be especially if you dont know. Thats false advertising and really doesnt do ANYBODY any good.
Medicine is a terrible career right now and will e getting worse. People should know all the bad before investing such a huge personal sacrifice. YOu included.
Sheesh... you seem so miserable.
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I was in the same boat as you 15 years ago. Had several family members in medicine, all enjoyed it than and still enjoy it now.
I've been out of residency almost 7 years and I still enjoy what I do. Are there frustrations? Of course, you can't find a job that doesn't have them. But over all I am still quite happy with my choice to go into medicine.
I have had the privilege of growing up around physicians my whole life... never met any quite as sad as you are. If you hate your job then quit...no point in intentionally discouraging premeds. It’s never too late to career change I hear.
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I’ve started and I’d rather be doing this than my old factory jobs I used to work. Sure this is hard but so is 95% of other jobs. Did you work prior to med school?
I’m sorry you feel this way but honestly the working before med school is something I absolutely credit with keeping me not burnt out. I just think about the people I used to work with working 2 terrible jobs to stay afloat
I worked tons of other jobs.. I would go back to parking cars at the country club over what im doing now..
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Life and growing up puts you at risk of burnout.
In my experience, most people-regardless of career-that call themselves burnt out, are actually burnt out for reasons other than their job. Usually family/spousal stress, which then gives them the opposite of rose-colored goggles that makes everything they do/see look miserable.
Or they grew up with the idea that "you follow your passion," and never learned how to sit down and learn to love the present moment. There are some jobs you will enjoy more than others. But even astronauts have a ton of drills and paperwork.
Cultivate a positive disposition, and marry the right person. I guarantee you even if you become a sewage plant operator, or sperm bank cataloger you'll be happier than the majority of people alive.
In my experience, most people-regardless of career-that call themselves burnt out, are actually burnt out for reasons other than their job. Usually family/spousal stress, which then gives them the opposite of rose-colored goggles that makes everything they do/see look miserable.
Or they grew up with the idea that "you follow your passion," and never learned how to sit down and learn to love the present moment. There are some jobs you will enjoy more than others. But even astronauts have a ton of drills and paperwork.
Cultivate a positive disposition, and marry the right person. I guarantee you even if you become a sewage plant operator, or sperm bank cataloger you'll be happier than the majority of people alive.
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Ever thought about teaching?
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You guys really have to stop this perpetuating this idea that work before med school somehow protects you from the burnout. There is no empirical basis for this logic.
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I never said there was any empirical evidence. It just gives you a hell of a lot more perspective, which in turn has allowed me to let a lot of the stuff people tend to complain about roll off my back. I get burnt out but its a lot less often and lasts a lot shorter than my peers that I've noticed. I've rotated with some pretty immature people and hear about the complaints these types of people have, which are completely normal parts of having a job. Not to mention my experience has showed that in my class, the people who had actual jobs before seem to complain a lot less and seem overall happier.
Nobody can deny that having experiences outside of academia allows you to understand a hell of a lot more what the actual world is like. Which has allowed me and others to rationalize how crappy this ride is at times, and prevent full out burnout. That's my point and its pretty sound logic...
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I agree with this 1000%. Too many med students are "professional students". Residency is their first work experience, and it often shows with poor employment skills, and I can see where having to work up to 80 hrs/week can easily lead to burnout in people who have never had to work.
After carefully considering what you wrote, I will stand by what I say.. TERRIBLE!!!! And I know you hate what im gonna say but. you too will find out what its all about.
I'll come back here and say you were right...
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Or you'll be one of the many doctors who likes their work
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Ok? and my experience has been that the non-trad people at my school had the hardest time on rotations. At my school, it was the people who went straight through who seemed to do better overall. Now what?
You think the issue of burnout in medicine would be solved if more doctors worked prior to med school huh? You think all these docs that burnout didn't have prior work experience? You must be unique I guess.
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Seriously? 80 hr/wk leads to burnout in people in general regardless of prior work experience. So the high number of docs that burnout all had residency as their only work experience huh? There's no way on Earth you can believe that.
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I don't disagree with you that 80 hours is burnout material in any employment venue, but the the current crop of medical students who never had to work would be the most susceptible.
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Again you’re putting words in my mouth. I never said it would be solved, just that it has helped me and several other people I know. Take a deep breath kid
I also never talked about being ‘better’ because that’s based on the student ability more than anything. I literally was just talking about seeming to be happier and not being bothered by normal stuff that happens in a job. Not to mention actually relating to people.
You seem super pissed about this for really no reason. I stated this was my experience and that working has helped me and some of my classmates. Everybody is different
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Fair enough.
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I worked before for years (full time + lots of OT). 80 hrs/week will prob burn me out. I'm really not following this logic in the least bit. It reminds me of the age old SDN adage that working hard prepares you to work hard. There's nothing difficult about working hard. The more you do it, probably the more reluctant you'll be to keep doing it.
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Professional students have a good work ethic, but they've never WORKED. Hence, they'll get hit the hardest.
We already see that not only with clinical year students but with newly minted residents, in terms of employment ethic.
They have issues with showing up on time, leaving too early, and not understanding that, no, you can't take off this Saturday for your cousin's wedding. This has has been seen in both the DO and MD worlds.
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Except you probably go home at 5pm every day, and have that Saturday off for your cousins wedding.....
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I hope y'all post here again after residency plus five years of working as an attending and see what u have to say then
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I get what you’re saying but if those are things you want to do, then choose a career where that’s guaranteed. Nobody is forcing anybody to do this. Healthcare involves working weekends and holidays in most of the jobs....and honestly many jobs outside of healthcare. Cmon now
