If doctors are so miserable & burnt out, why do so many of their kids still want to go to medical school?

[odyssey2]

I hope y'all post here again after residency plus five years of working as an attending and see what u have to say then

Are you expecting everyone to be more or less miserable once they do?

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[PikminOC]

Are you expecting everyone to be more or less miserable once they do?

Not leaning either way. Just want to see what they say then.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Not leaning either way. Just want to see what they say then.

I finished residency in 2013. Still pretty happy with my decision to become a doctor.

Does that count?

 

[PikminOC]

I finished residency in 2013. Still pretty happy with my decision to become a doctor.

Does that count?

Of course. I just want more people to vote in so we have larger sample size.

 

[Screwtape]

I would imagine that those are the kids of doctors who aren't burnt out.

+1. Was kid of burnt out doctor, am dentist now.

 

[Free411]

I worked before for years (full time + lots of OT). 80 hrs/week will prob burn me out. I'm really not following this logic in the least bit. It reminds me of the age old SDN adage that working hard prepares you to work hard. There's nothing difficult about working hard. The more you do it, probably the more reluctant you'll be to keep doing it.

Exactly! It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Chemist0157]

I think their kids would think burnout cannot happen to them. I would also think they did not see their parent physicians that miserable. Any rational person would avoid something that he believes is causing a lot of misery so they must see enough positives to outweigh the negatives.

You can count me as a generally happy doc.

 

[Goro]

Except you probably go home at 5pm every day, and have that Saturday off for your cousins wedding.....

And your point is.......?????

 

[Hopeful101]

And your point is.......?????

My point is that medical school is borderline abusive, and you can't actually know how you'll react to it until you get there. I don't think it matters if you've worked before or not, because putting the hours in isn't hard. Its loosing the hours you'd normally have to yourself. I don't think you can truly understand how that feels, otherwise you'd understand why people stop giving a **** and start showing up late or not at all.

 

[PieOHmy]

My point is that medical school is borderline abusive, and you can't actually know how you'll react to it until you get there. I don't think it matters if you've worked before or not, because putting the hours in isn't hard. Its loosing the hours you'd normally have to yourself. I don't think you can truly understand how that feels, otherwise you'd understand why people stop giving a **** and start showing up late or not at all.

There is nothing borderline about it. It is straight up ABUSIVE!

 

[RangerBob]

Maybe some of you guys seem lived in a different universe than me and my classmates/colleagues. While there were a few grumpy/mean attendings, none of us felt med school or training was abusive or even borderline overall. Maybe L&D was approaching borderline...

We all unequivocally agreed that working full time prior to med school was beneficial. It helped put things in perspective-such as how great it is to work in a job you feel makes a difference, that you enjoy, get paid well for, etc.

I’ve never heard someone argue working prior to med school was not helpful.

If I was ever so unhappy with medicine I felt the need to barrage the field to a bunch of strangers on a public forum, I would be well on my way to another field.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Maybe some of you guys seem lived in a different universe than me and my classmates/colleagues. While there were a few grumpy/mean attendings, none of us felt med school or training was abusive or even borderline overall. Maybe L&D was approaching borderline...

We all unequivocally agreed that working full time prior to med school was beneficial. It helped put things in perspective-such as how great it is to work in a job you feel makes a difference, that you enjoy, get paid well for, etc.

I’ve never heard someone argue working prior to med school was not helpful.

If I was ever so unhappy with medicine I felt the need to barrage the field to a bunch of strangers on a public forum, I would be well on my way to another field.

 

[RangerBob]

I'm a millennial who should probably be more competent with memes, but I can't tell if this is sarcasm given it's a Simpson's reference or if you're serious. It's ok either way--but I'm someone who doesn't like ambiguity! Which is ironic because I originally trained as an artist...

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I'm a millennial who should probably be more competent with memes, but I can't tell if this is sarcasm given it's a Simpson's reference or if you're serious. It's ok either way--but I'm someone who doesn't like ambiguity! Which is ironic because I originally trained as an artist...

No sarcasm at all

 

[fldoctorgirl]

We all unequivocally agreed that working full time prior to med school was beneficial. It helped put things in perspective-such as how great it is to work in a job you feel makes a difference, that you enjoy, get paid well for, etc.

I think this comment about perspective is the key thing here. No one is saying that you won't get burnt out working 80 hours/week or while studying for Step because you had a job before, but it definitely puts things into perspective that although you're grinding now, it's better than whatever you would be doing in xyz job. I'm someone who went straight from undergrad to med school and I can still see the truth in this, even though I only worked minimal hours at minimum wage jobs while I was in school. It intuitively makes sense that someone who busted their butt working a more blue collar job wouldn't find the things that most med students complain about so bad.

Also, if you can't stand the lifestyle aspect of medicine, do a 3 year FM or IM residency and work 9-5 4 days a week. Oh wait, that won't work, because everyone on this site wants to work 40 hours/week and make $500k and not be a "lowly FM doc"

 

[Splenda88]

Also, if you can't stand the lifestyle aspect of medicine, do a 3 year FM or IM residency and work 9-5 4 days a week. Oh wait, that won't work, because everyone on this site wants to work 40 hours/week and make $500k and not be a "lowly FM doc"

That is the issue here.

One can have a good lifestyle in most specialties in medicine, but most of us in medicine don't want to drive a Toyata Corolla, live in a 1600 sqft home, and send little Jimmy to the public school down the street.

 

[Goro]

That is the issue here.

One can have a good lifestyle in most specialties in medicine, but most of us in medicine don't want to drive a Toyata Corolla, live in a 1600 sqft home, and send little Jimmy to the public down the street.

I can assure you that all of my Primary Care clinician colleagues are NOT driving Corollas. More like Lexus [Lexi?], Audis, BMWs, Mercedes-Benzs, and high end SUVs.

 

[Lawpy]

I can assure you that all of my Primary Care clinician colleagues are NOT driving Corollas. More like Lexus [Lexi?], Audis, BMWs, Mercedes-Benzs, and high end SUVs.

I just say Lexus or Lexuses. Lexi reminds me of a few girls I know

 

[Splenda88]

I can assure you that all of my Primary Care clinician colleagues are NOT driving Corollas. More like Lexus [Lexi?], Audis, BMWs, Mercedes-Benzs, and high end SUVs.

Are they working 3 days/wk?

 

[Chibucks15]

Are they working 3 days/wk?

Most likely 3- 4 days a week, utilizing loan forgiveness for going into PC, and holding regular office hours with no call. At least that’s common in the Midwest where I’m at

 

[Goro]

Are they working 3 days/wk?

Typically in clinic for 3 or 4 days, teach 1-3.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Are they working 3 days/wk?

My FM PCP works 5 days a week, but he works 8-4 4 days and then like 8-3 on Fridays. He regularly takes 2-3 weeks of vacation at a time to travel out of the country with his family. It takes 4 months to get an appointment with him. He lives in a pretty nice house and sends all of his (4 or 5) kids to private school. He also just bought out another medical practice and will be running it from the business side. I have no idea what kind of car he drives, but I'm sure if he wanted a Lexus or an Audi he could have one. Oh, and this is in South Florida/Miami metro, not the midwest. My point is, people on this site vastly overestimate how much money it takes to live well. You may not be a multimillionaire living in a 10,000 sq foot house and driving a Ferrari, but you will certainly be more than comfortable making $200,000+.

 

[PieOHmy]

My FM PCP works 5 days a week, but he works 8-4 4 days and then like 8-3 on Fridays. He regularly takes 2-3 weeks of vacation at a time to travel out of the country with his family. It takes 4 months to get an appointment with him. He lives in a pretty nice house and sends all of his (4 or 5) kids to private school. He also just bought out another medical practice and will be running it from the business side. I have no idea what kind of car he drives, but I'm sure if he wanted a Lexus or an Audi he could have one. Oh, and this is in South Florida/Miami metro, not the midwest. My point is, people on this site vastly overestimate how much money it takes to live well. You may not be a multimillionaire living in a 10,000 sq foot house and driving a Ferrari, but you will certainly be more than comfortable making $200,000+.

Your head is stuck in the sand.. Who should be richer, the person who made personal sacrifice and who takes ALL the medico-legal liability or the administrator who has no skin in the game as to what patients outcomes are?

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Your head is stuck in the sand.. Who should be richer, the person who made personal sacrifice and who takes ALL the medico-legal liability or the administrator who has no skin in the game as to what patients outcomes are?

Your posts are a waste of time to reply to lol. Reality isn't based on who "should" be richer. Grow up.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Your posts are a waste of time to reply to lol. Reality isn't based on who "should" be richer. Grow up.

I want to like this post multiple times

 

[PieOHmy]

Your posts are a waste of time to reply to lol. Reality isn't based on who "should" be richer. Grow up.

Im sorry about offending you but i still maintain what i said.

 

[Giovanotto]

Professional students have a good work ethic, but they've never WORKED. Hence, they'll get hit the hardest.

We already see that not only with clinical year students but with newly minted residents, in terms of employment ethic.

They have issues with showing up on time, leaving too early, and not understanding that, no, you can't take off this Saturday for your cousin's wedding. This has has been seen in both the DO and MD worlds.

Wait, what? Are you forgetting the part where students spend 3 and 4 year doing clerkships, many of which in 4th year require you to do way more than what I've bolded? I'm so confused. Year 4 for me has definitely been work.

 

[Goro]

Wait, what? Are you forgetting the part where students spend 3 and 4 year doing clerkships, many of which in 4th year require you to do way more than what I've bolded? I'm so confused. Year 4 for me has definitely been work.

What we are seeing is that those students approach clerkships with an attitude that is less than workmanlike.

Do not engage in the sin of solipsism.

 

[Giovanotto]

What we are seeing is that those students approach clerkships with an attitude that is less than workmanlike.

Do not engage in the sin of solipsism.

Right, but medical school should take care of that. if you know of any 4th years who are that child-like with regards to work then I'm not sure how they made it this far. Are they also not showing up to residency interviews on time?

Had to google solipsism, and it's true I probably do that more than I should, but my point still stands.

 

[Goro]

Right, but medical school should take care of that. if you know of any 4th years who are that child-like with regards to work then I'm not sure how they made it this far. Are they also not showing up to residency interviews on time?

Still missing my point.

 

[Giovanotto]

Still missing my point.

You're right, I'm arguing something else now. Never mind.

 

[PikminOC]

Going straight from undergrad is nice so you retain the class material from college.
Maybe less stress on doctor kids since they don't have loans and are still in study mode.

I've been out for ten years, still have 75 g left if loans, interest...

 

[PikminOC]

Lots of doc kids may have practices to inherit too. Not so much for the hoi polloi

 

[PikminOC]

+1. Was kid of burnt out doctor, am dentist now.

What kind of doctor were you?

 

[Screwtape]

What kind of doctor were you?

My father was a physician—> I was a kid of a burnt out doctor.

 

[PikminOC]

My father was a physician—> I was a kid of a burnt out doctor.

Did he work at a hospital or private practice?

 

[Sleepingdoc]

They need to stop having TV shows that show attractive people "saving lives".... Some of these kids havent even seen or know life at all and have been brainwashed by their parents about becoming a doctor and make millions.... seriously grass appears greener on the other side. I enjoy what i do but some of these kids imagine that their life is gonna be like a TV show.

 

[Screwtape]

Did he work at a hospital or private practice?

He was a partner in a somewhat large anesthesia group. He either worked in hospitals or an out-patient surgery center.

 

[PikminOC]

They need to stop having TV shows that show attractive people "saving lives".... Some of these kids havent even seen or know life at all and have been brainwashed by their parents about becoming a doctor and make millions.... seriously grass appears greener on the other side. I enjoy what i do but some of these kids imagine that their life is gonna be like a TV show.

Then you must watch New Amsterdam.
Try not to vomit

 

[PikminOC]

He was a partner in a somewhat large anesthesia group. He either worked in hospitals or an out-patient surgery center.

Did he help pay for your dental school and or help you with setting up a practice?

 

[anbuitachi]

I'm currently in medical school right now, and I would guesstimate that literally about half of my class has a parent whose a doctor. Of that percentage, I would say about 10% of them have two parents that are doctors.

So, just curious...and I'd love to hear from people who have parents that are doctors..but what REALLY made you go into medicine despite knowing the long, hard road that lies ahead of you? You were never scared away from being a doctor, after seeing all the hours mom/dad puts in and how rarely they are home? Also, I imagine most doctor parents would steer their children away from medicine (at least thats what I've always heard)? What made you do it anyway?

Because kids are heavily influenced simply due to EXPOSURE. That alone gets them to go into it more frequently. A lot of kids think medicine/being a doctor is cool. Their parents can hate it, but kids might find it interesting, and decide to try it out anyway, then later on may hate it. Parents dont control what their kids go into.

 

[anbuitachi]

Not gonna speak about the medicine part; I'm not in medical school yet. However, being in my 4th gap year has given me a lot of perspective on the other side of medicine: business, finance, engineering, etc.

Engineering is brutal in college. Can't compare it to medical school, but you have to also work your ass off to get into the 6-figure salary range with just a BA/BS/BSE/etc. People may have that n=1 where their friend/spouse/parents/so on made mediocre grades from a top 25 and makes $150K, but from the vast majority of people I know from UG and in the work force, they're still pulling 60-70 hour weeks. ESPECIALLY in leadership or supervisor roles. Pharma and aerospace giants pay pretty well with very nice perks. But it's pretty damn competitive to get there.

Finance seems to be a big comparison here and in the premed forums. Accounting seems to be as well. Getting your CPA is hard as hell and getting into a Big 4 Company is pretty much about who you know. Then they start off with $80-100K a year. Growth is there but otherwise you're gonna be working your ass off. Finance is the same. Wanna make partner/secure nice benefits (company stock, bonuses, competitive vacation time?) You're gonna be pulling 70-80 hour weeks being a slave.

The only MBA that's really worth it, outside of medicine or healthcare, is if your employer pays for it. Otherwise, it's just gonna be a decent addition to your CV.

Making a lot of money each year (>$100K/year) takes a lot of time and dedication. If you're trying to work a 9-5, Monday through Friday, not many jobs are out there as lucrative as medicine (from what I've seen/heard.)

Just my $0.02. I know there are exceptions out there. These are just my observations from living in a city with a wide variety of professionals.

I'm an attending, and here is my 2 cents, now that most of my friends are well into their non medical careers.

If you went to a top 15 college (or so), and did well, and have friends who did well in college, it's going to be vastly different from another MDs experience coming out of a top 100 school and struggling with friends in similar boat.

Like you said, that n=1 for many people, is n = much higher than 1 for me and my peers. Most of my CS friends from high school and college are in top companies now, making far more than i do as attending physician (while working much less than 60 hrs a week), with no loans, and only more raises coming their way. So far they are 8 years in, and its not uncommon to be making 400k+. You have to take yourself, and your surroundings into consideration as well because its unreasonable to compare the entire medical community (highly selected individuals) with US population.

Most of the accountants i know are in big 4 accounting firm right after college. Salaries are around 200k
Most of finance people i know are now in large banks, none have been laid off in the past 10 years since they started working. Salaries are about ~300k after bonuses.
The hedgefund people are obviously making more but it also varies a lot depending on bonus and the fund.
The art, language, history majors i know are making far less than 200k even 10 years out from top 20 college.

So yea its going to vary a lot from person to person's experience

 

[Screwtape]

Did he help pay for your dental school and or help you with setting up a practice?

This is getting a little off topic for the thread so this will be my last reply. You can PM if you are still interested in any other specifics. He helped me with undergrad but beyond small financial help (cell phone, car insurance, etc) during dental school, I have been independent financially since my bachelors.

 

[PikminOC]

Because kids are heavily influenced simply due to EXPOSURE. That alone gets them to go into it more frequently. A lot of kids think medicine/being a doctor is cool. Their parents can hate it, but kids might find it interesting, and decide to try it out anyway, then later on may hate it. Parents dont control what their kids go into.

Parents don't control what their kids go into? This is not true in some cases

 

[PikminOC]

This is getting a little off topic for the thread so this will be my last reply. You can PM if you are still interested in any other specifics. He helped me with undergrad but beyond small financial help (cell phone, car insurance, etc) during dental school, I have been independent financially since my bachelors.

Thanks, I considered it germane as I think some kids go into medicine if their parents are doctors as they can get a leg up over others

 

[PikminOC]

I'm an attending, and here is my 2 cents, now that most of my friends are well into their non medical careers.

If you went to a top 15 college (or so), and did well, and have friends who did well in college, it's going to be vastly different from another MDs experience coming out of a top 100 school and struggling with friends in similar boat.

Like you said, that n=1 for many people, is n = much higher than 1 for me and my peers. Most of my CS friends from high school and college are in top companies now, making far more than i do as attending physician (while working much less than 60 hrs a week), with no loans, and only more raises coming their way. So far they are 8 years in, and its not uncommon to be making 400k+. You have to take yourself, and your surroundings into consideration as well because its unreasonable to compare the entire medical community (highly selected individuals) with US population.

Most of the accountants i know are in big 4 accounting firm right after college. Salaries are around 200k
Most of finance people i know are now in large banks, none have been laid off in the past 10 years since they started working. Salaries are about ~300k after bonuses.
The hedgefund people are obviously making more but it also varies a lot depending on bonus and the fund.
The art, language, history majors i know are making far less than 200k even 10 years out from top 20 college.

So yea its going to vary a lot from person to person's experience

What is their liability in their jobs like?

 

[appalachian_man]

I don't disagree with you that 80 hours is burnout material in any employment venue, but the the current crop of medical students who never had to work would be the most susceptible.

Where is the evidence that the “current crop” of med students have worked other jobs less often than previous generations? Aren’t there more non-trad students now more than there has been in the past? This sounds like a “millennials bad” argument

 

[Goro]

Where is the evidence that the “current crop” of med students have worked other jobs less often than previous generations? Aren’t there more non-trad students now more than there has been in the past? This sounds like a “millennials bad” argument

Word from our preceptors and residents here on SDN.

Yes, there are more non-trads, but they're still the minority of med students.

 

[mwsapphire]

Professional students have a good work ethic, but they've never WORKED. Hence, they'll get hit the hardest.

We already see that not only with clinical year students but with newly minted residents, in terms of employment ethic.

They have issues with showing up on time, leaving too early, and not understanding that, no, you can't take off this Saturday for your cousin's wedding. This has has been seen in both the DO and MD worlds.

Well...if it's planned far enough in advance and you use your approved paid time off you might be able to...(only half kidding I've heard plenty of interns getting their vacation schedule approved).

But do you think working 40 hrs/week prepared you for working 80 hrs/week? I'm doing about 20 hrs/week rn ( I'm basically stuck working part-time because the surgeon I work for only needs a part-time scribe and no other surgeons need scribes rn) and I don't even think it can be compared to 40 hrs/week ( it feels super chill which is what I want before grinding at least 60 hrs/week for med school). I think even normal full time jobs can't prepare you for residency.

 

[Chibucks15]

Well...if it's planned far enough in advance and you use your approved paid time off you might be able to...(only half kidding I've heard plenty of interns getting their vacation schedule approved).

But do you think working 40 hrs/week prepared you for working 80 hrs/week? I'm doing about 20 hrs/week rn ( I'm basically stuck working part-time because the surgeon I work for only needs a part-time scribe and no other surgeons need scribes rn) and I don't even think it can be compared to 40 hrs/week ( it feels super chill which is what I want before grinding at least 60 hrs/week for med school). I think even normal full time jobs can't prepare you for residency.

It isn't about hours and 'preparing'. Nothing will prepare you to work 60-80 hours a week besides working that much. It will suck no matter what.

What is being said is that people who understand what an actual job is like tend to not let the little stuff bother them as much. They tend to be able to bounce back better from these things too. Scheduling, interpersonal BS, etc. For many, its their first time not controlling their schedule and they don't understand that rolling in right at 728 every day if you're supposed to be there at 730 looks bad. And asking to leave for non-important reasons looks bad. And a bunch of other examples. Sometimes you have to work weekends and holidays and can't just take a day off for something on short notice (obviously if you go through the right channels you get days off, that's being a bit too literal with your interpretation).

The thing that I've seen that drives me nuts with some of these people is just the pompous or aloof attitude towards CNAs, janitors, and other staff. Even sometimes the nurses (although less frequently because they can directly mess you up and people finally realized that one). That may be related more to just being an ass more than prior experience though.

Its more of just being able to stomach non-ideal parts of literally any job in the real world and getting some perspective on what the real world is like and the reality of the patients and other people who haven't spent 99% of their lives in the academic bubble.