If Drumph wins, I’ll blame the democrats.

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epidural man said:
When I was in boys state in high school, I was a senator and I sponsored a bill that was non-partisan to put Idaho flags up in the classrooms. You can read that if you like. It didn’t pass though.

Actually, I’m not sure you are acknowledging my concerns.

Here is how I know. By the sound of this post, you think that I think the Republicans write fair bills, and you’ve asked me to produce an example. And you also assume that I’m somehow on the right politically. And since these are way off the mark, I would say my concerns have not been acknowledged I do not feel heard nor seen, and it hurts immensely.
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Just trying to be practical. If it's not an actual bill we're talking about, this is very pie in the sky.
 
chocomorsel said:
And you sound like a sexist misogynist jerk with zero moral and ethical standards who calls a woman the B word for speaking out against corruption and theft of OUR taxpayers money.
YOU are the problem in this country. Not her. Who the hell are you to come on here cursing out women?
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This isn’t surprising coming from you.

You’re clearly a W2 as you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about
 
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I understand not liking the many not likeable childish traits of Donald Trump, but I never understood that as a reason to fervorishly back the worst president we've ever had, by far the most mentally incompetent president we've ever had, and one of the most corrupt presidents we've ever had.

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Because it was way more than a few not-likeable childish traits.
 
nopain1234 said:
This isn’t surprising coming from you.

You’re clearly a W2 as you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about
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And you are clearly clueless as everyone one here knows I am a locums. Dumb dumb.
You though are just a shady sexist sheister without any kind of moral or ethical standards who is showing everyone that you stole some PPP money not intended for what it was.
Bye boi
 
nimbus said:
Think she is mostly or exclusively a locums hired gun. Unlikely to be w2.
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Exactly. He acts like he knows everything but is obviously completely clueless. Yet so damn sure. Over here admitting pretty much that he stole PPP money since he supports this behavior so fervently and tells me I am clueless about this. I got PPP money and didn’t buy anything with it except stuff I always bought for daily life.
 
chocomorsel said:
And you are clearly clueless as everyone one here knows I am a locums. Dumb dumb.
You though are just a shady sexist sheister without any kind of moral or ethical standards who is showing everyone that you stole some PPP money not intended for what it was.
Bye boi
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Aww. Snowflake mad at evil white man
 
chocomorsel said:
Exactly. He acts like he knows everything but is obviously completely clueless. Yet so damn sure. Over here admitting pretty much that he stole PPP money since he supports this behavior so fervently and tells me I am clueless about this. I got PPP money and didn’t buy anything with it except stuff I always bought for daily life.
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I’m sure miss priss was privy to the inner workings of said crooked construction companies accounting protocols with PPP loans. I received PPP and didn’t pay a penny to my employees. With zero knowledge of my business I’ll stand by and wait to be called a racist tax evading MAGA pig 🙂
 
nopain1234 said:
Aww. Snowflake mad at evil white man
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You don’t know **** about me. And people here will gladly let you know that I am far from a snowflake.
And what the **** does your Whitness have to do with it? It’s your unethical misogynistic attitude I have a problem with. How the **** do I know your race? Narcissistic much? You got big balls behind a screen. Truth is people like you are weak and can only bully from behind a screen in your mamas basement.
**** off!
 
nopain1234 said:
I’m sure miss priss was privy to the inner workings of said crooked construction companies accounting protocols with PPP loans. I received PPP and didn’t pay a penny to my employees. With zero knowledge of my business I’ll stand by and wait to be called a racist tax evading MAGA pig 🙂
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Well when egotistical dinguses choose to discuss it openly with their employees then yeah, the beans are spilled and word gets out.
 
chocomorsel said:
You don’t know **** about me. And people here will gladly let you know that I am far from a snowflake.
And what the **** does your Whitness have to do with it? It’s your unethical misogynistic attitude I have a problem with. How the **** do I know your race? Narcissistic much? You got big balls behind a screen. Truth is people like you are weak and can only bully from behind a screen in your mamas basement.
**** off!
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Snowflake triggered lmao. Why are libs so angry?
 
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nopain1234 said:
It’s funny that you people feel as if I’m obligated to discuss thing with my employees about MY business. Stay woke
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Nobody is talking about you here. You clearly did poorly in English Comprehension. But that’s Ok. It’s my third language but I have tutored people who called it their first language.😝😝😝😝
 
1679436644980.gif
 
I guess it’s safe to say that this thread has pretty much run it’s course.
 
BobLoblaw78 said:
This has created a problem for democrats. Do they prosecute and look like they are doing a political takedown? Or do they let it pass now and look like they think trump is above the law? Bad look either way
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Agree. As much as I want to see him behind bars, I was REALLY looking forward to what he was gonna do to the republican party when he ran independent. Although, I would like to point out that the democrats aren't prosecuting ****. Like I know they are gonna get the blame because idiots can't help but make this ish political, but this isn't some revenge job by the democrats. He broke campaign finance rules as far as I can tell and in my country one should normally goes straight to jail for that.
 
chessknt said:
So you're voting blue then?
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I'll vote like I always do -

I'll take that quiz thing and whoever lines up with me, I"ll probably vote for them. I don't care what "side" they are. Who would do that...care about political party? Wow. People do that? What a bunch of idiots if they do that. Are people really that stupid?

Most likely, I'll write someone in like I did in 2020.
 
epidural man said:
I'll vote like I always do -

I'll take that quiz thing and whoever lines up with me, I"ll probably vote for them. I don't care what "side" they are. Who would do that...care about political party? Wow. People do that? What a bunch of idiots if you do that. Are people really that stupid?

Most likely, I'll write someone in like I did in 2020.
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So you're not voting against Trump then despite this entire thread as long as the views 'align.'
 
epidural man said:
I'll vote like I always do -

I'll take that quiz thing and whoever lines up with me, I"ll probably vote for them. I don't care what "side" they are. Who would do that...care about political party? Wow. People do that? What a bunch of idiots if they do that. Are people really that stupid?

Most likely, I'll write someone in like I did in 2020.
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Well, given that we had Trump just about the entirety of the Republican Party would do that.
 
epidural man said:
Exactly. My vote is a sacred thing. I'm not going to cast it for someone who I disagree with, just because I may disagree with the opposite party more. That seems immoral.
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So you rather have the person you don’t want the most to win because you rather not vote for someone else even if it’s clearly a better option?

Is this some new right-wing strategy of voting for Trump without claiming you voted for Trump?

1679455665439.jpeg
 
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If Trump wins the primary then the democrats win no matter what. Being arrested and indicted makes no difference. He can’t win the general. Who would change their mind from 2020? People voted against Trump there, not for Biden.

If the republicans are smart enough to nominate someone else then they have a real chance.

The democrats should be praying Trump is nominated. There are a lot of GOP voters out there (like me) who would vote for pretty much anyone over Trump but are praying for another candidate.
 
epidural man said:
I'll vote like I always do -

I'll take that quiz thing and whoever lines up with me, I"ll probably vote for them. I don't care what "side" they are. Who would do that...care about political party? Wow. People do that? What a bunch of idiots if they do that. Are people really that stupid?

Most likely, I'll write someone in like I did in 2020.
Click to expand...

In a true democracy without political parties, or at least more than two major ones, your ideology would be correct and how everyone should approach elections.

But within the current political construct of this country, you’re basically voting for the GOP candidate. You think you’re being pragmatic and honorable by not voting for Trump, but your write in vote only helps him in the end. If you can’t see that and want to keep the blindfolds on, then that is your choice to make.
 
doctalaughs said:
If Trump wins the primary then the democrats win no matter what. Being arrested and indicted makes no difference. He can’t win the general. Who would change their mind from 2020? People voted against Trump there, not for Biden.

If the republicans are smart enough to nominate someone else then they have a real chance.

The democrats should be praying Trump is nominated. There are a lot of GOP voters out there (like me) who would vote for pretty much anyone over Trump but are praying for another candidate.
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Trump has reportedly refused to commit to getting behind the GOP nominee, and has even floated the idea of launching a 3rd party/running as an independent candidate under “MAGA Party” or “Patriot Party” on his Truth social.

The pathological narcissist that Trump is- he won’t let any other republican be the president if he can’t be the one.

Ultimately, Trump has succeeded in creating this major schism within the GOP… Lightning never strikes the same place twice… however it could happen in 2024!
 
thinkorswim said:
In a true democracy without political parties, or at least more than two major ones, your ideology would be correct and how everyone should approach elections.

But within the current political construct of this country, you’re basically voting for the GOP candidate. You think you’re being pragmatic and honorable by not voting for Trump, but your write in vote only helps him in the end. If you can’t see that and want to keep the blindfolds on, then that is your choice to make.
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I would say you have the blindfolds on for thinking this way.

You say that because you vote blue.

Someone from the Red would say the same thing to me, but say (in 2020 for example) "If you don't vote for Trump, you are electing Biden! I hope you can live with yourself."

They both can't be true. (believe me, all my conservative Facebook friends said the same thing to me, that me writing someone in was a direct vote for Biden.)

People who make your argument are blinded, one-sided, and make this argument to try and manipulate people to feel bad. It won't work on me though. 🙂

Here is a thought experiment. There is a guy who lives in a swing state in a swing district that is going to be very close. He has never voted. He doesn't know who he is going to vote for - so he decides (again), not to vote. Which side benefits from this?
 
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doctalaughs said:
If Trump wins the primary then the democrats win no matter what. Being arrested and indicted makes no difference. He can’t win the general. Who would change their mind from 2020? People voted against Trump there, not for Biden.

If the republicans are smart enough to nominate someone else then they have a real chance.

The democrats should be praying Trump is nominated. There are a lot of GOP voters out there (like me) who would vote for pretty much anyone over Trump but are praying for another candidate.
Click to expand...
Here is the problem.

People said the exact same thing in 2016....remember who won?
 
RadOncDoc21 said:
So you rather have the person you don’t want the most to win because you rather not vote for someone else even if it’s clearly a better option?

View attachment 368151
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There was no clearly better option. Good Lord, the only opponent Joe Biden is clearly the better option would be if he was running against Hunter 😂
 
thinkorswim said:
In a true democracy without political parties, or at least more than two major ones, your ideology would be correct and how everyone should approach elections.

But within the current political construct of this country, you’re basically voting for the GOP candidate. You think you’re being pragmatic and honorable by not voting for Trump, but your write in vote only helps him in the end. If you can’t see that and want to keep the blindfolds on, then that is your choice to make.
Click to expand...
Here's the thing... You voted for Joe Biden. You don't have any moral high ground to chastise others.
 
epidural man said:
I would say you have the blindfolds on for thinking this way.

You say that because you vote blue.

Someone from the Red would say the same thing to me, but say (in 2020 for example) "If you don't vote for Trump, you are electing Biden! I hope you can live with yourself."

They both can't be true. (believe me, all my conservative Facebook friends said the same thing to me, that me writing someone in was a direct vote for Biden.)

People who make your argument are blinded, one-sided, and make this argument to try and manipulate people to feel bad. It won't work on me though. 🙂

Here is a thought experiment. There is a guy who lives in a swing state in a swing district that is going to be very close. He has never voted. He doesn't know who he is going to vote for - so he decides (again), not to vote. Which side benefits from this?
Click to expand...
Really respect your conviction.
 
epidural man said:
Friends said the same thing to me, that me writing someone in was a direct vote for Biden.
Click to expand...
This is truly one of the most mathematically dumb comments that I too have been exposed to as I have voted for Ron Paul, Ross Perot, a couple of guys I play basketball with, and my friend's kid in various elections.

"A vote for Random is a vote for Blah-blah-blah."
Um, nooooo, to all of the math illiterates: A vote for Blah-blah-blah is a vote for Blah-blah-blah.

Let's break it down so nobody with any sense ever repeats that again.
A vote for Bad Guy is one for Bad Guy, Zero for Blah-blah-blah.
A vote for Random is no vote for Bad Guy, no vote for Blah-blah-blah.
And a vote for Blah-blah-blah is no vote for Bad Guy, One vote for Blah-blah-blah.

Trust me on this, all three of those scenarios are distinctly different from each other.
 
epidural man said:
I would say you have the blindfolds on for thinking this way.

You say that because you vote blue.

Someone from the Red would say the same thing to me, but say (in 2020 for example) "If you don't vote for Trump, you are electing Biden! I hope you can live with yourself."

They both can't be true. (believe me, all my conservative Facebook friends said the same thing to me, that me writing someone in was a direct vote for Biden.)

People who make your argument are blinded, one-sided, and make this argument to try and manipulate people to feel bad. It won't work on me though. 🙂

Here is a thought experiment. There is a guy who lives in a swing state in a swing district that is going to be very close. He has never voted. He doesn't know who he is going to vote for - so he decides (again), not to vote. Which side benefits from this?
Click to expand...
Voting third party is the equivalent of not voting so your thoughts experiment is apt. Sad of course that this is the case but that is a different topic for the less pragmatic. Not voting always benefits the side that wins.

The difference is that if Trump gets the nomination your choice isn't red vs blue, it is revenge tour style dismantle the bureaucracy/dissolve our national reputation for good/ explore implementing proto fascism since the courts no longer serve as a functional check vs. Biden (I must have missed the part where the forgone conclusion that he is the worst president in history had some sort of supporting information). If you hesitate when making that choice you aren't a moderate--you're a guilty Republican. I suppose that is better than the slobbering Maga cult that thinks Trump still won in 2020 (because facts no longer exist) but functionally no different if you aren't going to hold your party accountable (by registering with them but voting for the opposing party) when a lot more is on the line than just a 4 year presidency term.
 
thinkorswim said:
In a true democracy without political parties, or at least more than two major ones, your ideology would be correct and how everyone should approach elections.

But within the current political construct of this country, you’re basically voting for the GOP candidate. You think you’re being pragmatic and honorable by not voting for Trump, but your write in vote only helps him in the end. If you can’t see that and want to keep the blindfolds on, then that is your choice to make.
Click to expand...
There's a longer game that has to be acknowledged with third party votes. If party A loses to party B because a third party C candidate siphoned votes away from A's preferred candidate, party A has the opportunity to do some introspection and run someone more broadly appealing next time.

(I know, I know - introspection is a lot to ask. But even some bits of the GOP have the self awareness to understand that Trump is poison, and the Democrats overall weren't really in denial about Hillary, and even Biden was a compromise choice because Bernie was so obviously unelectable).

Of course we'd all be better off with ranked voting and instant runoffs, but this is the system we've got.

If you want me to feel bad because I voted for Johnson in 2016 and we got Trump, you're going to be disappointed. No vote is ever wasted.
 
Since we don’t have a ranked-choice presidential election and it is based on winner-takes-all, it does appear on the surface that voting for a 3rd party is a “wasted vote”. Both sides use this argument as a scare tactic to keep people from voting for anyone other than their candidate.

This is a true quandary for so many of us here who are center-right, moderate and independent voters, who deeply care about our country and our children’s future-there is no easy choice here, when both the choices seem so wrong on so many levels.

This is how the 2 political parties have gotten away with nominating poor candidates every four years and then persuading the electorate by portraying the opposing candidate as the “most evil” and telling you that the most evil candidate will win the election, unless you vote for their candidate as the lesser of two evils.

America will lose no matter who wins- Trump or Biden, as neither is worthy of the office. So there is really no reason to guilt-trip people about leaving the top choices “blank” or writing in a 3rd party name.
 
If one does a thought experiment and looks at any election between 1996 and 2016 from a hypothetical a priori standpoint, I don't think the vast majority of voters on either side were of the opinion that if the candidate from the other side won, the country was going to face grave harm on almost every level. (I say a priori because I don't think any Dems at the end of the 90s were thinking Dubya was going to lead us into something as catastrophic as the Iraq War or the Great Financial Crisis). Most voters simply voted for their candidate because they agreed with them on the views, not because they were voting against the other guy.

2016 changed all that. Trump was and is almost objectively worse on every conceivable level when it comes to how we evaluate politicians. This is supported by the fact that for the 20-30 years before trump, the average voter had the same level of apathy toward voting. But let's look at 2018 and 2020:

Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 9.25.20 AM.png

Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 9.26.05 AM.png


It's not a coincidence these elections had these turnouts. It's because voters were apathetic in 2016, the worst gd president since Harding or Andrew Johnson got elected, and people didn't like it so they showed up.

The GOP, however, have put on an absolute propaganda masterclass since trump's election with regard to opposition candidate perception. We all know deep-down the GOP establishment hated/hates trump. Reasonable center-right moderates and independents hate trump. But they were stuck with him because of his adoration by the rabid base. So the only way to justify continuing to support him is to do what? Make the other guy seem as godawful as trump.

Don't get me wrong, Biden was a flawed candidate (just like every other president), but I think Republicans absolutely love to ignore how and why he got elected. Biden won because he's an establishment neoliberal moderate. That is a fact no matter how much the GOP wails about the lipservice he paid to the progressive base. Biden won because, like it or not, his candidacy had the air of a return to normalcy where at least his political successes and failings would be the story. Not how wildly dysfunctional his cabinet and presidency were like his predecessor:

Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 9.34.27 AM.png


The fact remains, all these arguments about how bad or good third-party voting is all changed after trump. Trump was (and maybe still is) very close to approaching an existential threat to institutions of democracy, and he was plagued by a level of corruption, dysfunction, and sociopathy that neither Biden nor any other president can even come close to approaching.

Highly partisan Republicans can go on and on about how Biden and trump are equally evil and dangerous for the country and whatever else, but I think that will be a losing strategy if the 2018 and 2020 election results are any indicator.
 
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vector2 said:
If one does a thought experiment and looks at any election between 1996 and 2016 from a hypothetical a priori standpoint, I don't think the vast majority of voters on either side were of the opinion that if the candidate from the other side won, the country was going to face grave harm on almost every level. (I say a priori because I don't think any Dems at the end of the 90s were thinking Dubya was going to lead us into something as catastrophic as the Iraq War or the Great Financial Crisis). Most voters simply voted for their candidate because they agreed with them on the views, not because they were voting against the other guy.

2016 changed all that. Trump was and is almost objectively worse on every conceivable level when it comes to how we evaluate politicians. This is supported by the fact that for the 20-30 years before trump, the average voter had the same level of apathy toward voting. But let's look at 2018 and 2020:

View attachment 368160
View attachment 368161

It's not a coincidence these elections had these turnouts. It's because voters were apathetic in 2016, the worst gd president since Harding or Andrew Johnson got elected, and people didn't like it so they showed up.

The GOP, however, have put on an absolute propaganda masterclass since trump's elections with regard to opposition candidate perception. We all know deep-down the GOP establishment hated/hates trump. Reasonable center-right moderates and independents hate trump. But they were stuck with him because of his adoration by the rabid base. So the only way to justify continuing to support him is to do what? Make the other guy seem as godawful as trump.

Don't get me wrong, Biden was a flawed candidate (just like every other president), but I think Republicans absolutely love to ignore how and why he got elected. Biden won because he's an establishment neoliberal moderate. That is a fact no matter how much the GOP wails about the lipservice he paid to the progressive base. Biden won because, like it or not, his candidacy had the air of a return to normalcy where at least his political successes and failings would be the story. Not how wildly dysfunctional his cabinet and presidency were like his predecessor:

View attachment 368163

The fact remains, all these arguments about how bad or good third-party voting is all changed after trump. Trump was (and maybe still is) very close to approaching an existential threat to institutions of democracy, and he was plagued by a level of corruption, dysfunction, and sociopathy that neither Biden nor any other president can even come close to approaching.

Highly partisan Republicans can go on and on about how Biden and trump are equally evil and dangerous for the country and whatever else, but I think that will be a losing strategy if the 2018 and 2020 election results are any indicator.
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Strongly agree. With the caveat that as long as Biden looks like he can pass a mental status exam and somebody other than Harris is on the ticket.
 
Dr. Rude said:
Strongly agree. With the caveat that as long as Biden looks like he can pass a mental status exam and somebody other than Harris is on the ticket.
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I am 100% of the opinion Biden should not seek a second term and there should be an open dem primary.
 
Quoting vector2 here: “Don't get me wrong, Biden was a flawed candidate (just like every other president), but I think Republicans absolutely love to ignore how and why he got elected. Biden won because he's an establishment neoliberal moderate.”

Biden could be a moderate compared to the extremely progressive Bernie Sanders, but he is definitely significantly more left compared to all the previous Dem presidential nominees we have had. ( focusing on his current policies and not what he supported some decades ago when he was a moderate). This is very telling indeed of the current Democratic party’s pronounced leftward lurch- Biden is considered as a “moderate neoliberal” according to the standard of his party.
 
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epidural man said:
I would say you have the blindfolds on for thinking this way.

You say that because you vote blue.

Someone from the Red would say the same thing to me, but say (in 2020 for example) "If you don't vote for Trump, you are electing Biden! I hope you can live with yourself."

They both can't be true. (believe me, all my conservative Facebook friends said the same thing to me, that me writing someone in was a direct vote for Biden.)

People who make your argument are blinded, one-sided, and make this argument to try and manipulate people to feel bad. It won't work on me though. 🙂
Click to expand...

Funny you accuse me of having blindfolds on when it’s pretty clear which corner you stand in. I haven’t voted in any elections and find myself in the middle on a lot of things. My post wasn’t trying to make you feel bad, it was just simply pointing out the reality of voting in this country. But to your point on 2020, yes, both can be true. It just becomes apparent after the fact when we know who won.

pgg said:
There's a longer game that has to be acknowledged with third party votes. If party A loses to party B because a third party C candidate siphoned votes away from A's preferred candidate, party A has the opportunity to do some introspection and run someone more broadly appealing next time.

(I know, I know - introspection is a lot to ask. But even some bits of the GOP have the self awareness to understand that Trump is poison, and the Democrats overall weren't really in denial about Hillary, and even Biden was a compromise choice because Bernie was so obviously unelectable).

Of course we'd all be better off with ranked voting and instant runoffs, but this is the system we've got.

If you want me to feel bad because I voted for Johnson in 2016 and we got Trump, you're going to be disappointed. No vote is ever wasted.
Click to expand...

I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad. I’m just simply pointing out the reality of our elections, which you seem to acknowledge yet brush aside with wishful thinking that something will change. I agree that ranked choice voting and viable third parties would help our democracy. But like you say, this is the system we have and the reality is that if you’re not voting for someone then you’re voting against them. Let me ask you this — if you wrote in another candidate in 2020, how do you feel that we got Biden? Do you feel like you wasted your vote or indirectly helped the party you didn’t want get into power?
 
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I'm very happy with how the Biden administration has governed. I can't wait to vote for the guy again if I get the chance. Assuming he has the capacity to keep the same administration together. If he's losing his marbles or too tired to run again, I would vote for whoever is championing the Biden agenda.

Pros:
We're out of Afghanistan, Massive (mostly) bipartisan infrastructure bills passed, advocating for LGBT and abortion rights within his capacity, student loan relief with limits on high earners, strengthened NATO relationships in the face of Russian aggression, supporting Ukraine against foreign invasion without committing US troops - while being cautious of escalation, continued the tough stance on China from the previous administration, picked an amazing SCOTUS nominee, mostly committed to international organizations fighting climate change, significant drop in drone strike use compared to past two admins, fought for increased IRS funding going after high earners, likes trains, and his recent budget proposal would reduce the national debt

Cons:
Still cozy with Saudi Arabia despite human rights violations and war crimes in Yemen, arguably not doing enough to curb China given the credible allegations of genocide (last I heard we just sanctioned the government officials in Xinjiang and blocked exports from there), could absolutely be doing more to fight climate change

Easily the best president of my lifetime even when compared to Obama, and I think there's reason to be skeptical of the alternatives accomplishing as much. I don't know if someone like Bernie, Warren or Buttigieg would have had the institutional support to get their more progressive goals accomplished. There are no Republicans anywhere close to my values.

Third parties, lol.
 
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