If intelligence truly is genetic...

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SpecterGT260 said:
You know literally nothing about what it takes to be any kind of doctor. Let alone a good or terrible one.

Let's not try to make this point again. The only reason people say this is to circumferentially imply that they themselves will be good doctors. A statistically bad call

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:shrug: Some people just want to make themselves feel better by criticizing those who disagree with them as "future bad doctors".
 
Agent B said:
:shrug: Some people just want to make themselves feel better by criticizing those who disagree with them as "future bad doctors".
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You have a stupid face.

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It worked! 😀

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Wilf said:
Every so often I post trying to convince people that intelligence is real and that the differences between people is also very real. The resistance in this room tonight is more than I usually get! Oh well, it's always fun to debate.

It's like that episode of Friends when Ross meets a guy who doesn't believe in evolution and he gets upset and yells, "you mean my whole life's study is all for nothing!?"
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I posit that you have misread our beliefs, or at least mine.

I have a very strong belief in innate intelligence, or what most of us would call intelligence (not discounting social intelligence) and that there are differences between people that hard work simply cannot overcome.

Despite being given a pleothora of resources in my life which have helped me get where I am, I do not believe that the study of medicine is limited to those of us who inherited the golden ticket of a high IQ. IQ is not the sole determinant of success in this life, and never has been.

As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I gave (when in a doctoral program) for not pursuing medicine was that I too believed I wasn't "smart enough". After living with and befriending resident physicians, I saw that I was wrong. Only a select few had something I thought was unattainable for me (she says modestly).
 
KnuxNole said:
fixed.
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:naughty:👍:naughty: Well done.

Winged Scapula said:
Despite being given a pleothora of resources in my life which have helped me get where I am, I do not believe that the study of medicine is limited to those of us who inherited the golden ticket of a high IQ. IQ is not the sole determinant of success in this life, and never has been.
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Aw, so that awesome membership from Mensa isn't useful... 🙁

Winged Scapula said:
Do you guys know each other? :laugh:
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😏😏
 
Thanks for all your responses. Believe it or not this is exactly what I needed to hear. Much thanks!
 
Winged Scapula said:
I posit that you have misread our beliefs, or at least mine.

I have a very strong belief in innate intelligence, or what most of us would call intelligence (not discounting social intelligence) and that there are differences between people that hard work simply cannot overcome.

Despite being given a pleothora of resources in my life which have helped me get where I am, I do not believe that the study of medicine is limited to those of us who inherited the golden ticket of a high IQ. IQ is not the sole determinant of success in this life, and never has been.

As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I gave (when in a doctoral program) for not pursuing medicine was that I too believed I wasn't "smart enough". After living with and befriending resident physicians, I saw that I was wrong. Only a select few had something I thought was unattainable for me (she says modestly).
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Thank you for clarifying. But one question still remains unanswered to me: do you think there are a certain number of people in society who do not have enough intelligence to go into certain fields? Do you think it would be possible for a person with an IQ of 85 to become an emergency physician?

As to what I was saying earlier, I agree that it is possible for someone with a 110 IQ to become a physician, but it will be relatively few and it would be an uphill battle the whole way, starting with undergraduate studies.
 
Wilf said:
Thank you for clarifying. But one question still remains unanswered to me: do you think there are a certain number of people in society who do not have enough intelligence to go into certain fields?
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Absolutely. I believe that for certain endeavors there are requirements, physical, mental, social, etc.

Let's talk about physical intelligence/kinesthetics: I'm a pretty good swimmer. Spent my HS and college days teaching swimming. Could I have become world class even with a lot of practice? Probably not. There is something Michael Phelps has that no one else has; he has whatever magical combination of body type, work ethic (although that has been debated), etc. that no one else has.

My mother was a model. She was/is beautiful but she didn't have what it took to become a "supermodel" (not that that even existed in her day); she wasn't tall enough, couldn't work the camera to her best angle and has little sense of where her body was in space (I woefully inherited that from her and it terribly damaged my tennis serve. LOL).

Intelligence as measured by standard metrics is also required for certain endeavors. Ryan Lochte - to use another sports analogy. Great swimmer, questionable fashion designer. Do I think he's intelligent? No, at least he wouldn't score above average on the WAIS.. Do I think he's below average? No, but I also don't think he is bright enough to be a physician, or engineer, or chemist.

Do you think it would be possible for a person with an IQ of 85 to become an emergency physician?
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There's a loaded question...:meanie:

Possible? Perhaps. Likely? No. I would venture that an average level of intelligence is necessary for most white collar professions.

As to what I was saying earlier, I agree that it is possible for someone with a 110 IQ to become a physician, but it will be relatively few and it would be an uphill battle the whole way, starting with undergraduate studies.
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There is where we disagree. 110 is a reasonably normal IQ score. Since an IQ above 130 represents less than 2% of the population, are you saying that physicians belong to the rarified air as a rule? I'd agree with you - physicians ARE smarter than average. Most probably do have an IQ above 120 or even 130; however, there is no accounting for work ethic or laziness. One of the brightest guys I know is the son of a surgeon and an RN. Bright guy, bright family, lots of resources, a "would you like fries with that" degree from Cal. Doesn't matter - the guy isn't interested in working. He could absolutely be a physician; he understands the material when we talk about it. But he could never complete the coursework, he just wouldn't work that hard, even if it was what he wanted to do. Why should it be any different for someone who is of average intelligence who *would* put the time and work in? Did you really think undergrad and the MCAT were that hard?
 
studentdoctor08 said:
I feel like I need some advice/feedback here. As I've been preparing for the MCAT, I frequently find myself very annoyed and in a way, regretful that I wasn't born to more "intelligent" parents. My dad has a doctorate but my mother is not very educated, and I'm afraid that I inherited a lot of my learning capacity from her. It's been hard studying for the MCAT because I know no matter how hard I study or try, for me to even score near a 40 is a long shot. How are some people just so much more naturally smart/gifted than others? How I wish I was one of them.
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And I wish my parents were taller, such is life my friend...
 
chemsmith said:
And I wish my parents were taller, such is life my friend...
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More like I wish I were taller (talking about myself).... can't blame the deck for the hand dealt it is more luck of the draw really.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Maybe. Is the mom over 35? It would be easier to go after her if we suspected anglemans but the OP is far too pessimistic for that.
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10/10 (it's "Angelmans", by the way)
 
Pattycake25 said:
10/10 (it's "Angelmans", by the way)
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I'm on break, so give me one 😛


I did think something looked funny about it though haha. I just figured it was the lack of a capital letter and moved on 😎

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Winged Scapula said:
Having spent a number of years in grad school (prior to medical school) studying Psychology and administering more than a few WAIS/WISCs/Stanford-Binet exams, I am quite familiar with the role of inheritance and intelligence. IQ can be predicted from parent's IQs just as you can predict what color my eyes might be, or whether my 2nd toe is longer than the first; its all in that double helix. Unfortunately, have no interest in getting into a political debate.

While the average medical student IQ may be higher than the average (whatever the hell average is) Joe Blue Collar worker's, there has never been any evidence that a higher than average intelligence (defined as 100 with SD of 15) was required to succeed in medical school. As a matter of fact, a number of studies don't even rank physicians as the highest average IQ out there.

Medical school is about work ethic and memorization, not a high IQ. And let's not forget the debate about what these standardized tests are really measuring. They certainly aren't measuring success, work ethic, earnings, productivity, etc.
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I agree with everything you've written on this thread. Some aspects of total intelligence are genetic whilst other aspects are dependent on environment (nurture, nutrition, experiences, etc.). This is why it's silly for the OP to blame his mom. It's hard to pinpoint the source of his deficiencies that are relevant to his MCAT prep, if there are any. More than likely, all the OP needs is just better preparation.

I also agree that medical school is primarily about work ethic and memorization. A high IQ is superfluous for medical school. No matter how high your IQ, if you don't work at some minimal baseline, you will fail. On the other hand, I feel to be a good (let alone excellent) engineer, physicist or natural scientist, every ounce of intelligence helps in addition to a good work ethic. In fact, I don't think one can say intelligence is superfluous in these fields as most progress is aided by problem-solving, creative ideas and new insights. You don't have to do anything new to be a good doctor, unless you want to be a leader in the field meaningfully advancing knowledge and standards of care.
 
Slightly unrelated, but my old roommate blamed his parent's genes for his laziness. True story.
 
Wow seriously? How can your roommate blame his parent's choice of pants for his work ethic? For shame!
 
KnuxNole said:
Wow seriously? How can your roommate blame his parent's choice of pants for his work ethic? For shame!
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He is a very odd individual. I don't want to reveal too much in case my identity ever gets pinned down, but let's just say this is the least of his misjudged actions.
 
Cyal said:
I also agree that medical school is primarily about work ethic and memorization. A high IQ is superfluous for medical school. No matter how high your IQ, if you don't work at some minimal baseline, you will fail. On the other hand, I feel to be a good (let alone excellent) engineer, physicist or natural scientist, every ounce of intelligence helps in addition to a good work ethic. In fact, I don't think one can say intelligence is superfluous in these fields as most progress is aided by problem-solving, creative ideas and new insights. You don't have to do anything new to be a good doctor, unless you want to be a leader in the field meaningfully advancing knowledge and standards of care.
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What you described applies to any field where research or innovation in any form is sought. Do you think Picasso had an over-the-moon IQ? Or Charles Baudelaire, Franz Liszt, Charlie Chaplin? Genius (because it is what we're talking about here) is hardly measurable or related to IQ.

I'd safely propose that certain fields need a great amount of "base" intelligence to grasp, because of the abstract nature of the thing and the immense depth, but pass a certain threshold, it hardly matters anymore. A physicist with 180 IQ would only do better than another physicist with 140 IQ because he works faster, but ultimately they'd have the same ability to reason, and intelligence would have only been a slight facilitator.
 
Doudline said:
What you described applies to any field where research or innovation in any form is sought. Do you think Picasso had an over-the-moon IQ? Or Charles Baudelaire, Franz Liszt, Charlie Chaplin? Genius (because it is what we're talking about here) is hardly measurable or related to IQ.

I'd safely propose that certain fields need a great amount of "base" intelligence to grasp, because of the abstract nature of the thing and the immense depth, but pass a certain threshold, it hardly matters anymore. A physicist with 180 IQ would only do better than another physicist with 140 IQ because he works faster, but ultimately they'd have the same ability to reason, and intelligence would have only been a slight facilitator.
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I agree with you. There are other forms of intelligence. I happen to think Franz Liszt and Chopin were musical geniuses. A physicist with a 140 IQ might do "better" under the right circumstances. IQ isn't everything.
 
Cyal said:
I agree with you. There are other forms of intelligence. I happen to think Franz Liszt and Chopin were musical geniuses. A physicist with a 140 IQ might do "better" under the right circumstances. IQ isn't everything.
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Some people here prefer to talk about exceptions rather than rules. An often taught statistic in psychology classes is that high IQ people with only a high school diploma earn more on average than low IQ people with bachelors degrees.
 
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