If you could do it over would you

[CoffeeFreak]

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This is the best post I've read. I own a business, do well financially and agree with your thoughts.

I have been reading and reading on this thread and have some thoughts to add. Here is a little back ground. I am 32 and have been on a business career path related to medicine. I recently went back to school to take my pre reqs. and applied to med school this cycle. I got into Ros Frank.(Finch / Chicago Medical School) AP. For those that do not know this is a program where you take 1/2 of MS1 courses and if you maintain a 3.0 you get to continue on in medical school taking the 2nd 1/2 of the MS1 clases during your 2nd year (basically a 5 year program) so even more debt.

I worked for Pfizer Pharmaceuticals right out of college selling Zithromax, Glucotrol, Zoloft, Viagra. Then I realized that many docs did not know squat about business and were loosing lots of money. These were docs who got hired by some group out of residency and after being a slave for the group thought they could make more money on their own. So I formed a medical business consulting company and started taking on all types of miserable and poor docs from almost every specialty (ortho, urology, IM, FP, Peds, Plastic, Nephrology, Surgery, Derm, Ophto, etc.) These guys were all loosing $$$ on their own. Eventually me and another doc opened a multispecialty clinic and I ran the business side. Over 5 years we grew to 5 locations 20 + docs with specialties from ortho, plastics, to primary care, etc. I dealt with recruiting docs, firing docs, negotiating with insurance companies, hospitals, mal practice, etc. (we were sued about 2 times / year) I was paying 120k / year!!! for the ortho surgeon who had never been sued!!!! My point is I know the business side / crap the docs face today. Beleive me it is horrible. I could hire FP or IM docs for 80K/ year, granted they were not the most competitive applicants and somewhat desperate. We had 5 PAs doing a lot of the work also. Most of the docs were disgruntled with their careers.
All of my best friends from college went into medicine and are now finishing their residencies. (1 is Rads, 1 Urology, 1 Gas, 1 Pathology, 1 optho, 1 Ortho, 2 IM) I have remained pretty close with them throughout their training. They wish they did not have debt, they wish they had a decent car and a house, they wish that they made money, etc. Many have told me that I am crazy to go into medicine. I am married have 2 kids, I have made decent money, have a house, cars etc. (not bragging, just giving you an idea of my situation). I sold my ownership in the clinic when I went back to school to take prereqs and the MCAT. Currently my wife and I run a small medical billing business. She will continue to run it while I go to med school.
What is my point to this ramble of a post? Everyone hates their careers and complains, "the grass is always greener" My attorney friends hate their jobs. My corporate friends are working 60 - 100 hours / week and traveling all of the time. They might be making good money but they can't spend it. When they go on their vacations, they really can't relax. The cell phones, politics of the office, this project, that project and deadlines remain, so they are miserable on their vacation and practically working anyways. The weekends are the same thing and they end up working. My MBA business friends make great money, drive nice cars etc are totally jealous that I am going back to school to be a doctor, most of them are overworked and stressed to the max. Their marriages suffer and there kids wonder when they will see dad again. The point is work is called work because it is work and every profession sucks on some level and the people in those careers dream about what if i was a ...... etc. Life is hard regardless of your profession / Job. At least as a doc ther is an ocassional rare occurance where you are actually helping someone (but the insurance claim will get rejected) so you won't get paid and the patient will probably sue you.

Accountants don't want to be accountants, CEO wish they did something else, even rock stars complain about how hard touring is etc. I have one friend who is independently wealthy and does not have to do anything and he complains and is anxious that he has too much time ans feels unfulfilled. Consultants don't want to be consultants. Teachers don't want to be teachers (not enough money and tons of headaches). I think you get my point.

I do not know if this will help anyone, but the fact of life is that we always wish we did something else and everything looks perfect from far away. At the end of the day most of my close friends that are docs are deep down very glad that they get to do what they do and they eventually find a balance and make life work. Anyways, sorry to rant and rave and go on and on, I am sure I am still naive (not having even started classes yet) but I have lived the life that many of you now say you wished you did instaed of medicine and it can suck too. I have worked my fair share of 80 - 100 hour work weeks in business. Be glad that you are a doc and will always be needed and can really help people. The grass is not always greener and you will eventually find your happy place. I would agree with those who have said do not go into medicine for money or prestige, etc. It is not there anymore.

 

[Roadrunner]

Yes.

After my first two years of school the answer would have been no. But I find patient interaction very engaging and meaningful. Overall, it's a difficult but rewarding career from my vantage point near the end of medical school.

 

[PDT4CNV]

Just a few comments.
I'm a 3rd year resident. The field of medicine is very interesting and intellectually challenging regardless of the field. You will helping patients whether you are treating traumas, running codes, treating diabetes, cancers, rehabilitating patients, taking out cataracts, or fixing hernias. The hours during training can be bad, but that is training, and once in practice generally average 40-60 hours/week. Again, the true science and art of medicine itself is tremendously satisfying.

What I dislike about medicine is the politics, the insurance situation, and the legal situation. Having to deal with scope of practice issues with other specialties, having to deal with medicare, medicaid and take pay cuts every year from them. Having to deal with continuously increasing malpractice premiums, and things like the new 3 strike law in florida from the hungry malpractice attorneys, that is what sucks.

If I had to do it all over again, I would go into dentistry, and practice something like cosmetics, orthodontics or periodontics. Lots of surgery without quite as much politics/malpractice/insurance and government issues. This is not because I don't like medicine, but because I hate all of the other crap that has to be dealt with during the practice of medicine.

 

[shorrin]

I have to ask, what other professions have less BS than medicine? Or less paperwork? Or the politics? Or the attitude?

Let's face it. Most jobs these days are NOT creative.

And most professions these days are routine.

And to be quite honest, although i wouldn't call it a "calling", it's the only thing that i could see myself doing. Yes it's a tough road (even tougher than most other professions) but i feel that beyond the money or security or prestige (if there is such thing left for us), i would not be happier doing anything else.

Z. (finishing med school)

I know this is digging up an old post during a new and different debate but I'd like to offer my perspective as an M4 on my second official career.

I used to work as an art director in advertising. This particular kind of job is even more competitive than gaining entrance to med school, though few of you will believe this statement, it is true. While you do not have to be a genius, you do have to be bright, creative and work hard.

There is no paper work in being an art director unless you freelance, though there is also politics, attitude and a small amt of undermining and plagarism. In this particular field you MUST be creative, it's do or die.

The problem of the OP is in misunderstanding what creativity actually means. Creativity or to be a "creative" (another word for art director) means that you MUST be adept at problem solving. There are many solutions to be envisaged but it is only the most elegant that will win the wallets of the clients. With this in mind you can easily see that you have creativity in business, research and yes, in medicine.

The people who see medicine as cookie cutter are correct but at the same time are also doing themselves a disservice. To imagine that there are no more problems to solve is to have no imagination.

Perhaps you think that I am talking about research and while it's true that most changes are discovered there, there's ample opportunity to improve many things such as information systems (which are vastly behind in some places) just to name a quick example.

A problem exists when there is no elegant answer. The answer requires creativity. Often times in medicine you are required to work under the gun, and think out of the box you were trained in. Those who have had clinical experience, must have had those moments, and it those people who have said it can be done no matter what are the ones who truly are creative (problem solvers).

My point is that you bring creativity with you, it is not necessarily in the profession itself if you do not bring it with you.

 

[PREMED0615]

Hi all, i put off medicine for unseen circumstances. My undergrad was in biology but now i'm pursuing an MBA with a concentration in healthcare. I honestly have always wanted to be a doctor, for all the right reasons, but i'm so burnt out right now, i don't know if i can handle the four years of stress. Any bit of advise on my situation. Also what can i do now with my MBA with the concentration, and with my undergrad degree that will give me a six figure income that i NEED to pay off these loans and live a decent life. Thanks a lot.

CONFUSED!

 

[MD'05]

Hi all, i put off medicine for unseen circumstances. My undergrad was in biology but now i'm pursuing an MBA with a concentration in healthcare. I honestly have always wanted to be a doctor, for all the right reasons, but i'm so burnt out right now, i don't know if i can handle the four years of stress. Any bit of advise on my situation. Also what can i do now with my MBA with the concentration, and with my undergrad degree that will give me a six figure income that i NEED to pay off these loans and live a decent life. Thanks a lot.

CONFUSED!

After my latest week of misery, I advise you to complete your MBA and forget about medicine. There is no joy in it unless you can compete for one of the ultra-elite specialties where the hospital kisses your ass up and down because you are truly not expendable.

 

[bulletproof]

After my latest week of misery, I advise you to complete your MBA and forget about medicine. There is no joy in it unless you can compete for one of the ultra-elite specialties where the hospital kisses your ass up and down because you are truly not expendable.

which are these "non-expendable" ultra elite specialities you speak of...are you referring to derm/ radiology? Sorry...I may be naive but I thought even these guys were replacable..no? Thnx.

 

[2006MD]

YES!

But don't ask during my MICU rotation coming up.

 

[pej933]

I'm a 4th year and I am not sure if I would do it again. I not a resident yet so I haven't really experienced it. But, right now i'm doing a sub I rotation in ortho and I can tell you the residents get their ass handed to them. Their work ther f@#@#ing ass off. Rounding at 5:30 am, then, conference, then, more rounding, surgery, etc. The ones that are happy truly seem to have the passion for it.

My PGY2 the other day just did 30 hours while on call and he was absolutely miserable. He was losing his mind with the number of pages he was receiving. While calling one page back, two more pages were already there.

My self as a Sub I, already worked 15-18 hour days pretty reguarly right now and it's freaking hard. I don't care who you are. You better enjoy this **** and have passion for the field you have chosen, or you will be miserable. Period.

I was in biotech for 4 years before going to med school. I was really idealistic and was just not really aware how good I had it. I can tell you that biotech is WAY easier than medicine and if you are there long enough to have a supervisitory position, you make good money. The money is crap in the beginning, but, so it residency pay. The lifestyles are COMPLETELY different. Way easier on the biotech side. The manager of our division hardly did **** and was getting over 100K.

Sorry, but, these are the realities. Make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. If you are in medicine, chose the right field so best suit your lifestyle.

 

[jocn]

I'm an older student (34, an MSIII) and coming from a different profession, pharmacy. Whenever someone finds out that I'm a pharmacist they ask me why I am back in school because "don't pharmacists make good money". Yeah, its true that per hour I make possibly as much as many GPs nowadays, but my job sucked the life out of me. i have had doubts many times and thought about quitting during school, but every now and then I'll have a great encounter with a patient or physician and I'm reminded why I choose to do medicine. Yea, I could make money as a pharmacist, but I wasn't happy. Might I still be unhappy as a physician? I suppose the possibility is there, but how would I ever really know without trying? I feel that this is what life is all about--trying new things, learning, and not being afraid to experience something for yourself. I also firmly believe that if people find themselves unhappy in any situation, they should make changes. That is, if one is unhappy as a med student/resident/physician, then quit. There are other things to do in life, and other ways to help people.
I wish that medical training didnt wear people out that much, but unfortunately that seems to be the state of training and health care in this country today. I definitely think that people going into medicine should understand the best they can what they are getting into.

 

[Laryngospasm]

. That is, if one is unhappy as a med student/resident/physician, then quit. .

Im tired of people telling residents that if your unhappy just quit. Its not quite that easy to do when you have 100-300k or MORE in debt. This would be such a large setback financially that most people would not have the ability to pay it back without sacrificing things like their kids college funds and their retirement. I had a friend who was a neursurgery resident who had over 400k in debt due to private med and undergrad schooling. I have less loans than most and my payments will be over 1000$ a month. So quit, and if youre lucky get a job making 40k a year-take home 2600 or so a month. You do the math genius. Just quit-yeah,right.

 

[gujuDoc]

Im tired of people telling residents that if your unhappy just quit. Its not quite that easy to do when you have 100-300k or MORE in debt. This would be such a large setback financially that most people would not have the ability to pay it back without sacrificing things like their kids college funds and their retirement. I had a friend who was a neursurgery resident who had over 400k in debt due to private med and undergrad schooling. I have less loans than most and my payments will be over 1000$ a month. So quit, and if youre lucky get a job making 40k a year-take home 2600 or so a month. You do the math genius. Just quit-yeah,right.

👍

I think that the only way to really be able to quit is to finish residency and then work til the loans are paid off and then retire early to do something else.

Unfortunately, that scenario won't work either because by then you've wasted sooooooooooooo much time and energy that you are better off staying in the field.

The bad thing with medicine is it is real hard to see how it really is until you are truly there.

 

[MD'05]

Residency sucks. Maybe it's just internship. It's like I can do nothing right. It seems as if every attending is out to get me and find one little freaking mistake. This is crazy. I wonder if any one else feels this way?

 

[Herman Bloom]

I agree with several posters on this thread who quessed that many of the unhappy doctors/residents/students out there went straight into medicine out of college. They simply must lack a certain amount of perspective compared to their collegues who did something else first. That being said, I am also of the opinion that certain people will always be happy with their lives and certain others will always be disgruntled.

Just an observation.

 

[backontop]

laryngo,

get income-contingent repayment plan under direct lending. you pay a percentage of your income for 25 yrs. then the rest of the loan is FORGIVEN.

you can thank Clinton for that one.

instead telling people to do math, do the research on loan repayment plans, genuis.

don't factor money into your happiness; you are never trapped.

 

[ericdopt]

Would I do it again?....Hell yes! A little background. I'm 37, soon to be 38. I was a Physical Therapist for 15 (!) years. I was bored to tears! Medical school was something I always considered. I'm currently in my intern year, I'm actually on call as I write. BTW, call was brutal tonight and I'm going to work tomorrow as a PT in order to make money since the pay sucks and my wife stays home with our son. I'm married with a 3 yo and another due October 30th. I busted my ass in Medical school, I did very well, did well on my boards and was accepted into a radiology residency. I knew what I wanted and worked my ass off to get it (I also worked part time during medical school as well). There were many times when I wanted to slack off and not study, but working reminded me why I went back to school. I had a blast! I studied 3 hours in the am (4-7), went to class, came home and ate with my wife and then studied from 6 to 9 pm. I didn't study on saturdays, and maintained my friendships. I'm over $200K in debt, but I don't care. I'll be doing something I love, and will be able to do FOREVER!!!

Don't get me wrong, there were many times when I doubted myself, but my wife would have kicked my a**! Anyway, Sorry for the rambling, I'm sleep deprived.

 

[CambieMD]

Nice post!!!! 👍

CambieMD

 

[shorrin]

If I get into my residency choice then it'll be a hell yes for certain 😉.

 

[ericdopt]

I forgot to mention in my call induced haze that the reason I didn't initially want to go into medicine was because:

1) I didn't think I could hack it- After a short stint at graduate school at Northwestern, I was taking classes with medical students in anatomy. My program (MS in ortho PT) had 1 1/2 more months of anatomy then the medical students did. That's when I realized I could do it.

2) I didn't want the long hours- Hell, I was working 2-3 jobs just to pay rent in Chicago while my wife worked full time! We still couldn't afford a mortgage. I probably worked longer hours as a PT then I am as a resident (50+ hours on my "full time" job, and another 8-20 hours on my second job). I was also volunteering and taking post-bacc classes. At least with residency, I'm at one place.

3) I wanted to be with my family and not have my wife sleep with the pool boy and my kids on crystal meth- Again, my wife is very supportive, and I decided on a specialty that will allow me to spend more time with my family. I loved surgery, but I always found myself looking at my watch wondering when I was going to see my son again...a sure sign that surgery wasn't for me. It would have been selfish of me to choose career over my family, but that is just one man's opinion.

So, again YES I would do it all again.-

 

[Sanman]

ericdopt,
On a quick side note, when do you sleep?

 

[humuhumu]

ericdopt,
On a quick side note, when do you sleep?

I had a similar thought. If he says he only sleeps 4 hrs/day, my next question will be: How? Caffeine? Modafinil?

 

[ericdopt]

my schedule today is very unusual. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I usually get 6 hours/night. No drugs, occas. caffeine, it usually wires me too much. I do some extra work only 3-4 days a month, which is enough to get us by. Hopefully that clarifies things.

 

[ericdopt]

p.s- please excuse the mis-spelling in my last post.

 

[Poety]

I've been reading through this post and I just wanted to add something (I didn't read EVERY post so if its been said sorry for being redundant!)

But - ANYONE (WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS) who wants to make an enormous amount of money, and anyone who DOES make an exuberant amount of money, works hard - and I'm not talking the 40 hours a week kind of work - I'm talking the 65-100 hours a week work. The attorneys I know, the surgeons I know, and the business owners I know that make the most, work a ridiculous amount of hours. Now granted, one does have a teenager on crack, the other has never found a girlfriend, the other 'appears' to have it all, but I think his wife probably IS doing the pool boy YiKeS - so it all depends on picking your poison - lots of money = lots of work or decent money = balanced life.

So yes, I would do this all over again, having been a nurse I went into this with my eyes WIDE open and I think I've found a way to balance it- but I had NO IDEA HOW HARD and how much I would STRUGGLE both mentally AND physically until I actually did it.

 

[Chief Resident]

I've been reading through this post and I just wanted to add something (I didn't read EVERY post so if its been said sorry for being redundant!)

But - ANYONE who wants to make an enormous amount of money, and anyone who DOES make an exuberant amount of money, works hard - and I'm not talking the 40 hours a week kind of work - I'm talking the 65-100 hours a week work. The attorneys I know, the surgeons I know, and the business owners I know that make the most, work a ridiculous amount of hours. Now granted, one does have a teenager on crack, the other has never found a girlfriend, the other 'appears' to have it all, but I think his wife probably IS doing the pool boy YiKeS - so it all depends on picking your poison - lots of money = lots of work or decent money = balanced life.

So yes, I would do this all over again, having been a nurse I went into this with my eyes WIDE open and I think I've found a way to balance it- but I had NO IDEA HOW HARD and how much I would STRUGGLE both mentally AND physically until I actually did it.

You can't simply paint everybody with the same broad brush. There definetly are dermatologists, cosmetic/plastic surgeons, and other doctors in other 'lucrative' specialties who work less than 60 hours a week and make tons of money. I personally know of some as I'm sure others do too.

 

[Poety]

You can't simply paint everybody with the same broad brush. There definetly are dermatologists, cosmetic/plastic surgeons, and other doctors in other 'lucrative' specialties who work less than 60 hours a week and make tons of money. I personally know of some as I'm sure others do too.

I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, thats silly. What I'm saying is those people are much more far and few between than most people think. And btw, the amount of time for their training alone - says something yet again for the amount of work they put into it.

 

[Chief Resident]

I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, thats silly.

you said:

ANYONE who wants to make an enormous amount of money, and anyone who DOES make an exuberant amount of money, works hard - and I'm not talking the 40 hours a week kind of work - I'm talking the 65-100 hours a week work.

 

[Poety]

you said:

yes and i responded as stated above - there are always EXCEPTIONS, but they are few and far between. I'm not getting into a pi&&ing contest with you...I have my ideas and views on this, you have yours 😀 oh, and to your post regarding loan forgiveness programs, check out the midwest and northeast, they seem to have a lot of them there depending on your specialty. Midwest is loaded with them.

Good luck!

My previous post has been edited to state : with some exceptions just to clarify

 

[Sanman]

Well I will agree with Poety, with a few exceptions. First off, define "making a lot of money". I know many people who work 40 hours a week and clear six figures. It is not that difficult to do with a good education. Now good money is a relative thing a derm can clear 250k on a 40 hr week, however, good money in derm could equal 750k if someone wanted to bust their ass and had a good business sense. It all depends on what your basis for comparison is. I would define it as well above the average for your chosen profession/specialty. In which case, I have yet to see someone not work hard to accomplish that. Though, there is certainly something to be said for working smart.

 

[Laryngospasm]

laryngo,

get income-contingent repayment plan under direct lending. you pay a percentage of your income for 25 yrs. then the rest of the loan is FORGIVEN.

you can thank Clinton for that one.

instead telling people to do math, do the research on loan repayment plans, genuis.

don't factor money into your happiness; you are never trapped.

Its still 400-500$ a month if you make 40 K a year GENIUS, so if you think this wont cut into your kids college funds or your retirement think again. For the next 25 years. 🙄

 

[backontop]

sounds like you went to the website and calculated it at the default rate of 5.3%. that is way higher than 2004's interest rates. i'm sorry but you are way off. maybe you should do what i did: admit that you're ignorant, go to the library and take out 3-4 books on the subject and read them.

then post your toolish posts.


by the way, you're a doctor?? shame on you for doing a corny google search and assuming that you know the deal. i'm sorry that your kids are getting screwed cause of your ignornance.

 

[Sanman]

Can't ya just feel the love!!!! 😛

 

[Laryngospasm]

sounds like you went to the website and calculated it at the default rate of 5.3%. that is way higher than 2004's interest rates. i'm sorry but you are way off. maybe you should do what i did: admit that you're ignorant, go to the library and take out 3-4 books on the subject and read them.

then post your toolish posts.


by the way, you're a doctor?? shame on you for doing a corny google search and assuming that you know the deal. i'm sorry that your kids are getting screwed cause of your ignornance.

Actually its the same payment if you use a 2% interest rate, so why dont you explain to me whay you think the payment would be and how you came up with that amount. Yes, your right I did go to the government website and do the calculator. So show us all how to make the payment less, it might actually benefit some people who dont know how. By the way I dont have any kids, and Im not going to file for this. I was just trying to illustrate how this could be hard on people even with this plan. If im wrong, im wrong, but thats what the calculator says with 2.0%.

 

[Poety]

Actually its the same payment if you use a 2% interest rate, so why dont you explain to me whay you think the payment would be and how you came up with that amount. Yes, your right I did go to the government website and do the calculator. So show us all how to make the payment less, it might actually benefit some people who dont know how. By the way I dont have any kids, and Im not going to file for this. I was just trying to illustrate how this could be hard on people even with this plan. If im wrong, im wrong, but thats what the calculator says with 2.0%.

Hi Guys! Where is the site that has this information about the loan forgiveness after paying for 25 years? i've only been to the sallie mae web page and they had someting similar but it didn't say it was forgiven after paying for 25 years... so I'm curious...

 

[erichaj]

Yes.

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and I have to say, I still laugh out loud when I read comments from pre-meds. If you haven't even started your first day of med school, your 2 cents mean jacksh1t. Who the hell cares about your feelings about medicine? No one. You're just another lay person on the street with zero perspective. I finished my first year and I felt weird about posting. How the hell do you know if it's worth it until you're at least nearly done with med school? My own half baked opinion is that med school and being a doctor aren't as important as I thought they were when I first started my post-bacc 6 years ago, at 25. At this point I'm definetly looking more towards wanting a family and stability, and not spending 100 hours on the wards fooling with heroin addicts that come to the ED so that you can start an IV line on them (so they can then escape from the hospital to inject more heroin and then come back with sepsis and cellulitis). Listen, people out there don't really don't give 2 sh1ts in hell because you're a precious MD. Write me a rx or I'll sue your ass. Give me this, do this, fill this out. I'm watching my boyfriend go through fourth year, I've seen my dad's career. It ain't all pretty. I'm just tired of effusive pre-meds with stars in their eyes telling fourth years and residents how it is. Give me a goddamned break. Come back in a few years. Your opinion then has a modicum of validity.

 

[erichaj]

You may have an Intellectual background (which I respect) and you are right about the attitude in the post.

However, you don't have the medical background. I could not say if an engineers lifestyle was good or bad until I lived that life.

If anyone on this post is considering that the grass is greener on the other side, they could be highly mistaken. But, the post is about "doing it over again". And there is so much anger in here due to the lack of professional behavior and courtesy in medicine that people don't want to go near it with a 10 foot pole.

As a doctor, Its like you are in the boat without a paddle and there is a small leak. You have very little support systems because you have lost the power that came with your M.D.

People demand that you do certain things for them. You want to say "I'm the doctor with the years of training, I get to say what you need" I will say it in a kind way, but you or the insurance company or the Hospital does not get to decide what happens next. As a patient you get to make a decision based on the facts that I give you. You can't say do this or I will sure you or I will go find another guy."

I want to say to those people, why did you come to see me if you did not want my medical knowledge and experience. If you just want me to write something on a piece of paper and give it to you because you saw it on tv go somewhere else.

The point is, "Would you do it over agan" ? Several people on this thread posted about switching to engineering instead of medicine if they had a second chance. I have experience in that field (B.S. in Chemical Engineering followed by several years working in chemical industry) that many likely have never known about or ever will. SO my viewpoint is useful for comparing "is it really greener on the other side?"

That being said, You should have more respect for people with intellectual backgrounds that you don't understand; Sounds like a typical daughter of a Doctor, typical snob (whether you're an MS2 or pre-med, without work experience you are basically equivalent). Most anyone in professional society would agree that your bad attitude is going to get you nowhere.. You might look at Radiology during your fourth yr electives, do us all a favor and don't come out of diagnostic CTs.

PoorMD

 

[Chief Resident]

If you keep your ego in check then it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. If you're the type that thinks because you have an M.D. and whatever number years of training then that means you should be treated special by patients, nurses and anybody else who you deal with then you'll be sorely disappointed.

 

[erichaj]

If you keep your ego in check then it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. If you're the type that thinks because you have an M.D. and whatever number years of training then that means you should be treated special by patients, nurses and anybody else who you deal with then you'll be sorely disappointed.

But, I think there has to be a certain level of respect. If the CEO of the hospital comes in the room people respect him. If the docotor walks him people may attack him (verbal).

The physician is the highest clinical authority in the hospital. He or she should not have this huge ego for that reason. But, they should get the respect they deserve because of the knowledge and responsiblity that comes with those two little letters.

An ego is never good. But abuse is never good either.

A good doctor is humble and assertive.

To put it plainly , we shoult not **** on anyone and should not be **** on.

 

[Chief Resident]

But, I think there has to be a certain level of respect. If the CEO of the hospital comes in the room people respect him. If the docotor walks him people may attack him (verbal).

The physician is the highest clinical authority in the hospital. He or she should not have this huge ego for that reason. But, they should get the respect they deserve because of the knowledge and responsiblity that comes with those two little letters.

An ego is never good. But abuse is never good either.

A good doctor is humble and assertive.

To put it plainly , we shoult not **** on anyone and should not be **** on.

Maybe during the so called golden age of medicine doctors were looked up to and respected, and it must have been nice, but that ship has sailed and society has changed. Doctors are now looked upon to provide a service. I guess what I'm saying is if you come into this profession expecting respect you're going to be disappointed most of the time. I for one am glad that I'll have a secure job that pays six figures, respect or no respect.

 

[Coco_Nut]

I'm a medicine intern and I would definitely do it again.

It apparent from this thread and our daily experiences that there is a lot wrong with medicine. This post below points out the:
- lack of professionalism/respect with/from coworkers
- the nightmare of managed care
- abuse of the system by patients

I would also add that:
- I spend more time doing paperwork than seeing or thinking about my patients (2/2 litigation)
- generally, residents are overworked

All of these things have certainly served to erode the medical field. And while we sit here and biotch about what is happening, we shall all continue to erode the field with negativity and be bullied by litigation - and yes, I do sit there at happy hour and bitch along with everyone else as well. It is therapeutic in its own way.

But there is no better profession out there....unless you came into medicine for money. Even if you are an automechanic, pilot, pharmacist, there are going to be a$$hole coworkers, pushy customers and political pissing. And while managed care and paperwork are real obstacles, they need creative solutions to reshift the focus of our priorities in the hospital and in private practice back to patient centered care in an environment where we are not afraid of lawsuits.

At the end of the day, you can still clear the cirrhotic's encephalopathy so that he can spend a day by the pool with his grandson, give the college coeds OCPs so that they can make whoppee, help men and women to die with dignity and bring the next generation into this world.

If anyone on this post is considering that the grass is greener on the other side, they could be highly mistaken. But, the post is about "doing it over again". And there is so much anger in here due to the lack of professional behavior and courtesy in medicine that people don't want to go near it with a 10 foot pole.

As a doctor, Its like you are in the boat without a paddle and there is a small leak. You have very little support systems because you have lost the power that came with your M.D.

People demand that you do certain things for them. You want to say "I'm the doctor with the years of training, I get to say what you need" I will say it in a kind way, but you or the insurance company or the Hospital does not get to decide what happens next. As a patient you get to make a decision based on the facts that I give you. You can't say do this or I will sure you or I will go find another guy."

I want to say to those people, why did you come to see me if you did not want my medical knowledge and experience. If you just want me to write something on a piece of paper and give it to you because you saw it on tv go somewhere else.

 

[Strength&Speed]

Would I do it again? Maybe---but probably not. There are a LOT of late nights--a lot of continuous pressure to study, a LOT of "gutting it out". You can only gut it out so much before you stop giving a ****. At least a little. I'm a 3rd year resident too, and I've had it fairly easy the last 2 yrs.

The quote below is another example of what makes it frustrating. THere are other factors that are variable amongst Drs: Debt, declining compensation, delayed gratification, too stressful, bored with their job etc, etc. These things don't bother me so much, honestly. Declining compensation should never be used as an excuse. Doctors make very good money. Don't let someone try to use that busted excuse on you. There is not a single job out there that offers as good and stable a salary. However, as we all know, having money does not equate to happiness. If you are going to do it, I suggest you do it for the right reasons, or expect bitterness and pain.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with the posters who say it isn't respected. People still do very much respect doctors. Moreover, they respect doctors who are patient and have good attitudes. As they should, because it takes a lot to be that kind of doctor.

At this point I'm definetly looking more towards wanting a family and stability, and not spending 100 hours on the wards fooling with heroin addicts that come to the ED so that you can start an IV line on them (so they can then escape from the hospital to inject more heroin and then come back with sepsis and cellulitis).

 

[Strength&Speed]

At the end of the day, you can still clear the cirrhotic's encephalopathy so that he can spend a day by the pool with his grandson, give the college coeds OCPs so that they can make whoppee, help men and women to die with dignity and bring the next generation into this world.

👍

 

[med99]

NO, I would go into something like pharmacy! 40 hour work weeks. Easier and shorter schooling. Decent money. Less respect but now in retrospect I can get along without that.

 

[A. Melanoleuca]

No. Unless I successfully re-navigate this years match and switch specialties in which case the answer is yes.

Besides, this is not a good question for an intern to answer. Intern year is by far the worst experience of my long, varied life which, as I want to remain anonymous, I will just say has not been without hardship and danger.

I wouldn't say intern year is hard, exactly. The hours are long, of course, but the real problem is the huge amounts of my time that are absolutely frittered away in the hugely inefficient system by which doctors are trained. I'd say easily 90 percent of my time is spent following paper work (or computer work) which while essential to patient care is highly redundant and mostly boilerplate intended for protection from lawyers.

In addition as almost every specialty has a different system, different forms, and different paper-work priorities it seems that the first week of every rotation is spent learning the system rather than the specialty.

 

[billydoc]

Hey Melanoleuca!
Thanks for your input. What specialty did you match in, and which one did you really want? Sorry for being so nosy. Looking at your screenname...Hem/Onc? I'm still trying to give the thought about the med school a rest, but it keeps popping up in my head. But I'm in my mid 30s, and I know the commitment like the med school will do a real number on my family. On the other hand it could leave me with the life full of regrets.
Yup! Damn if you do, and damn if you don't 🙁
Thanks

No. Unless I successfully re-navigate this years match and switch specialties in which case the answer is yes.

Besides, this is not a good question for an intern to answer. Intern year is by far the worst experience of my long, varied life which, as I want to remain anonymous, I will just say has not been without hardship and danger.

I wouldn't say intern year is hard, exactly. The hours are long, of course, but the real problem is the huge amounts of my time that are absolutely frittered away in the hugely inefficient system by which doctors are trained. I'd say easily 90 percent of my time is spent following paper work (or computer work) which while essential to patient care is highly redundant and mostly boilerplate intended for protection from lawyers.

In addition as almost every specialty has a different system, different forms, and different paper-work priorities it seems that the first week of every rotation is spent learning the system rather than the specialty.

 

[A. Melanoleuca]

Hey Melanoleuca!
Thanks for your input. What specialty did you match in, and which one did you really want? Sorry for being so nosy. Looking at your screenname...Hem/Onc? I'm still trying to give the thought about the med school a rest, but it keeps popping up in my head. But I'm in my mid 30s, and I know the commitment like the med school will do a real number on my family. On the other hand it could leave me with the life full of regrets.
Yup! Damn if you do, and damn if you don't 🙁
Thanks

Just for your information, you can't go straight into heme/onc. You have to do an Internal Medicine residency first and then apply for a heme/onc fellowship. This would add another three years to your training after the three spent in IM.

No. It was not heme/onc I was interested in. And I used to be a pretty big poster on the Everyone forum so if you really looked at my screen name you would know who I am. I'm not that incognito. I just want to keep a little bit of a low profile while I vent.

I was older when I started medical school so don't worry about that. And I thouroughly enjoyed medical school and would be enjoying residency if I had managed to match into what I really wanted to do. Hopefully I can rectify this next march, either by matching into the specialty I want or into the back-up which I also like well enough. Anything but this.

So don't let me discourage you. The point is to get your ducks in a row so you match the first time around. If you do that you will probably enjoy your residency even if parts of it suck. (That's just life. Even my previous careers which I enjoyed had less than savory aspects to them)

I want to add that all other things being equal, it is harder to match the second time around especially if you are an idiot like me and don't opt for the preliminary year but instead scramble into a categorical position (one in which most people plan to stay in for the duration).

First, and this is only my guess, some programs might consider you to be "damaged goods." I know it's irrational but most physicians have careers which are fairly linear from college to medical school to residency to fellowship to attending to program director with no major screw-ups along the way. I consider not matching and subsequently trying another specialty-one which I had every intention of staying in before I found out how much it sucks-to be a real screw-up.

Second, because of medicare reimbursement rules, and I am simplifying, your initial residency determines how many years a program can get full reimbursement from the the government for you services. Since my specialty is three years and I am trying to match into another three year specialty, my new specialty will only have me on the books as a "full time equivalent" resident for two years. During the last year I will be "half time" and the program will lose half of their reimbursement for me from the feds which at a typical program might be 30,000 bucks. (assuming that a typical full time reimbursment is around 60K. This of course depends on the hospitals total medicare billing. This policy makes no sense to me but that's how it is.)

In other words, I will only be "fully funded" for two years and "half funded" for the last year. Some programs won't even consider an applicant who won't be fully funded for the duration. UAMS, for example, explicitly states this on their web site.

Third, in a preliminary year, your program director understands that you will be interviewing again and will make allowances in your schedule. My program director didn't know until about a month ago as I was waiting to see if I got any interviews before I rocked the boat. Unfortunately I will now have to either schedule my interviews during my brief vacation time or try to switch an inpatient rotation for and outpatient rotation because outpatient rotations are generally nine-to-five and the intern is not as essential to daily operations as he is on an inpatient service.

In fact, interns often just get in the way at many off-service clinics. If I had urology clinic, for example, the urology residents and fellows would probably not know when I was scheduled, wouldn't want me to follow them around slowing their work flow, and wouldn't miss me if I took a few days off to interview.

I also should add that if you decide to switch after you start, you will be at the mercy of your schedule when it comes to burnishing your credentials. My particular specialty has some overlap with what I want to switch into but through bad luck I have so far only had the non-overlapping rotations which are not even required in that specialty.

PM me if you have any burning questions.

 

[HP11]

I think if you apply the same amount of dedication as we apply in our field, preparing and working to get to our goal, you can be successful and attain wealth in just about any field. When I look and see the kind of sacrifices that I have made and am willing to make for the next few years, it really bring everything home for me. I don't know if I would do it again. Would have done something that would have been closer to my heart.

 

[A. Melanoleuca]

Speaking of paperwork, let me tell you something I find ironic. At my medical school, the charting was all done on paper. We hand-wrote our notes and even copied lab values into them when applicable. All of the orders were hand written as well as consults of every type.

This sounds primative but it had the advantage of consolidating everything on one chart. All you had to do was pick it up and instantly find out almost everything pertinient about your patient. The few things you couldn't like radiology reports were dictated and could be accessed over the phone at which time I usually made a hand-written note in the chart with the pertinant findings.

Additionally, because everything was written by hand, we eschewed the usual boiler-plate and convoluted legalese which is the bane of computer generated notes. By working to be succint, it was pretty simple to read progress notes to understand the patient. (OK, except for those people who's handwriting is terrible but you get my point) Not to mention that everybody who saw the patient from the nutritionist to the hospital chaplain left a breif but succint hand-written note on the chart in sequential order of their encounter.

I am no luddite but this system is a hell of a lot more useful to me than many of the completely computerized systems I have seen, none of which are completely electronc but instead rely on a hybrid of computer and paper. On my current rotation, for example, documenting the patients is done on two seperate computer systems (one for the hospital and one for OB which do not share information) as well as on paper charts. This means I have to go to three different places (conceptually) to follow a patient.

The worst part is that computerizing your documentation cause the amount of documentation to explode in an exponential manner. The risk managers love this because now you can cut and paste lengthy templates which, on paper anyways, cover all the bases, dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's". You may not acutally physically do any more than you usually do with the patient but the exploding volume of paper-I mean computer-work makes it look like you have.

The CPRS system at the VA is a good example of this. I like the system but after only a couple of days a patient can generate two hundred notes as everybody with any hand in him at all leaves an offical-looking note in the chart. Sometimes it makes it hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. I like the chaplain as much as anybody and assist the good padre any way I can but is it really important that he leave a note in the chart when he sees the patient? I'm willing to take his word for it.

Electronic documention is great. I am all for it. But the old paper charting had its advantages too.

 

[davvid2700]

Speaking of paperwork, let me tell you something I find ironic. At my medical school, the charting was all done on paper. We hand-wrote our notes and even copied lab values into them when applicable. All of the orders were hand written as well as consults of every type.

This sounds primative but it had the advantage of consolidating everything on one chart. All you had to do was pick it up and instantly find out almost everything pertinient about your patient. The few things you couldn't like radiology reports were dictated and could be accessed over the phone at which time I usually made a hand-written note in the chart with the pertinant findings.

Additionally, because everything was written by hand, we eschewed the usual boiler-plate and convoluted legalese which is the bane of computer generated notes. By working to be succint, it was pretty simple to read progress notes to understand the patient. (OK, except for those people who's handwriting is terrible but you get my point) Not to mention that everybody who saw the patient from the nutritionist to the hospital chaplain left a breif but succint hand-written note on the chart in sequential order of their encounter.

I am no luddite but this system is a hell of a lot more useful to me than many of the completely computerized systems I have seen, none of which are completely electronc but instead rely on a hybrid of computer and paper. On my current rotation, for example, documenting the patients is done on two seperate computer systems (one for the hospital and one for OB which do not share information) as well as on paper charts. This means I have to go to three different places (conceptually) to follow a patient.

The worst part is that computerizing your documentation cause the amount of documentation to explode in an exponential manner. The risk managers love this because now you can cut and paste lengthy templates which, on paper anyways, cover all the bases, dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's". You may not acutally physically do any more than you usually do with the patient but the exploding volume of paper-I mean computer-work makes it look like you have.

The CPRS system at the VA is a good example of this. I like the system but after only a couple of days a patient can generate two hundred notes as everybody with any hand in him at all leaves an offical-looking note in the chart. Sometimes it makes it hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. I like the chaplain as much as anybody and assist the good padre any way I can but is it really important that he leave a note in the chart when he sees the patient? I'm willing to take his word for it.

Electronic documention is great. I am all for it. But the old paper charting had its advantages too.

I was last at the VA 3 years ago.. and the system was awesome back then... IT must be friggin awesome now.. How can you not love this system.. ANyone who looks at c harts to find out anything about a patient.. you cnannot do it in the current system.. Too many variables in handwrtiting styles... peoples handwriting change wiht moods.. ITs just troubling how difficult it is to get through a chart.. I remember medical school where it was sooooo frustrating..

 

[A. Melanoleuca]

I was last at the VA 3 years ago.. and the system was awesome back then... IT must be friggin awesome now.. How can you not love this system.. ANyone who looks at c harts to find out anything about a patient.. you cnannot do it in the current system.. Too many variables in handwrtiting styles... peoples handwriting change wiht moods.. ITs just troubling how difficult it is to get through a chart.. I remember medical school where it was sooooo frustrating..

I didn't say I didn't like it, only that it generates an incredible volume of mostly useless and mostly redundant information which needs to be sifted through.