If you could do it over would you?

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Just curious have you actually gone through med school and endured all that debt?


Good question, I am still scratching my head as to who BlueManGroup is or where he even came from?

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Monthly student loan payments is like paying rent. There is no enduring about it since you still have money left on your paycheck to make a living.

Monthly payments is what matters on a practical level. As mentioned earlier student loans will not take more than 20% of your check so it wont kill you as long as you are reasonable with your money.
 
Physicians are extremely underpaid and work harder than most other professions but there is nothing you can do except complain about it. That is why the happiest physicians are the ones that like to help patients. Dont go to medical school to become rich.

No one goes to become rich, people however do go with desires to live comfortably and provide for their family. This includes the ability to go home at a reasonable hour, with a reasonable amount of days off.

Also, the forms that Sallie Mae sent me included 15-20% of GROSS income.

Life is lived on a spectrum. Most medical students don't consider loan debt in a monthly payment amount while they're trudging through the depths of undergraduate and medical school. Right or wrong, they're focused on the goal. If you make $150k/year, but your monthly loan payment brings down your monthly expendable income to the equivalent of someone who makes 50-75k/year, you better LOVE LOVE LOVE what you're doing. And you better be willing to accept the fact that all of those years of absolute struggle might not actually lead to the comfort you previously presumed. Most pre-meds/medical students simply can't predict their financial lives many years from now, seeing that the financial conditions in medicine are constantly in flux.

I'm lead to believe based on your previous history of lying on SDN and your posting style that you currently have absolutely nothing to do with the practice of medicine. You're either a pre-med/1st or 2nd year med student/complete outsider. Either way, good luck with your endeavors. There's no point in having the discussion with someone who simply can't fathom or relate to your struggle. BTW, this is also readily apparent with most in our government.
 
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I'm lead to believe based on your previous history of lying on SDN and your posting style that you currently have absolutely nothing to do with the practice of medicine. You're either a pre-med/1st or 2nd year med student/complete outsider. Either way, good luck with your endeavors. There's no point in having the discussion with someone who simply can't fathom or relate to your struggle. BTW, this is also readily apparent with most in our government.

Yeah, BlueManGroup has been called out before and has no credibility with me.

The problem with pre-meds is that they focus on the actual medicine, which actually can be quite interesting. What they don't appreciate until much later on is non-medicine aspects and this is what kills the idealism of people. The non-medicine crap like the secretarial work, paperwork, and social work. Dealing with abusive or manipulative pts or families. The hours are very long. Nobody should be forced to work 30 hours straight - every 4th night. It's abusive to me. And let's not forget the malignant hospital culture where everyone from secretaries, aides, nurses, residents, and attendings are miserable and make sure you know it. You get yelled and talked down to by people who have 1 year seniority over you. That kind of behavior would never be tolerated outside of the hospital and I know because I spent many years in the office environment. Anyone who doesn't take 200k in debt seriously is naive. 200k is extremely risky amount to take on. If you fail in any way during your training to reach that lofy goal of a good paying job as an attending, that 200k can quickly mushroom to more than $500k like this lady. You will never afford to buy a house, car, know the feeling of financial freedom. You will live in debt for the rest of your life since you can't discharge most student loans even in bankruptcy. There's much more. That thread from Sermo is pretty good. The attendings discuss problems with private practice and dealing with hospitals, insurance companies, and Medicare.

So listen to BlueManGroup at your own risk.
 
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Logic is not a strong suit for some on this thread. We all understand that you are miserable with medicine because of debt and working hard for your money.

My point is what can you do about it?

BELIEVE it or not some people enjoy their life even with debt.

What this whole argument deals with are some people that feel entitled for a high salary for putting in alot of work. Yes you deserve more money but you are not entitled to it.

You guys should have known the game before you started now you have buyers remorse.

Complaining about it is cathartic and gives you temporary satisfactioon.

It is not therapeutic. Deal with your life. You dug yourself a hole now fix it or shut up.

As mentioned not everyone went into medical school for an entitled amount of money.
 
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As for discounting my argument.

Intelligent people will read my argument and will consider it. My logical arguments can be challenged. The reason some focus on the messenger is because they do not have the logical firepower to contest my claims thus focus on the person.

I stand by my arguments.
 
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Going to preprofessional schools require loans and hence debt.

You would still have a huge debt by going into dental school, business school, or law school.

The grass is always greener.

Dental school pigeon holes you into one area. Do you really want to put all of your eggs into one basket? What if you don't like being a dentist? Plus, cosmetic Dentistry is saturated. As for becoming an orthodontic, this path requires you to be in the top 2 percentile out of 100+ students in your class. Even after you get into orthodontics, the number of jobs are saturated. Also, if you google orthodontic dentists notice how many of them went back to medical school afterwards to get their MDs. Hmmm. I wonder why? I am sure you can figure it out.

Prospects of jobs after business school are too tied up with the economy. Plus, it matters where you get your MBA, your business experience BEFORE MBA school, and the connections that you make (i.e. introverts would have more trouble than extroverts).

As for Law School, twice as many lawyers are minted for every physician. There is a reason you see so many med mal commercials. Lawyers are broke. Only the ones from top twenty law schools make money. The rest make much less than 100K a year.

As for Grad school, you will make much less than 100K a year with the pressure of tenure that requires research, publications, and grants. This means many, many nights of bringing work home.

At least by going into medical school, you are guaranteed a job (the exceptions are pathology and radiology) after you finish regardless of the economy. The demand is huge.

As I said many times.

When you are an undergrad and want to go to grad school or preprofessional school, you want to have the most number of different opportunties available for success.

Bottomline:

Medical school opens more doors of opportunity than law school, business school, or dental school.

If you pick the wrong specialty you can switch or leave clinical work. If you don't that is your own fault. There are successful physicians such as Dr. Joseph Kim on SDN that have credibility in their nonclinial careers because of the MD degree.

Yes it may be about debt and hard work. We all understand that physicians are all severely underpaid for the amount of training. But it really has to do with you HATING your job and a sense of entitlement for some "X" amount of money that you wished you made based on unreasonable expectations. Besides there is nothing you can do so why obsess about your lower than expected salary and feeling sorry for yourself.

There are physicians that have huge debt, hate paperwork, and being on call but they are still happy with their career because it gives them inner fulfillment. People that obsess over huge debt are just miserable people. Majority of physicians have huge debts but not all physicians are unhappy.
 
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If you pick the wrong specialty you can switch or leave clinical work. If you don't that is your own fault. There are successful physicians such as Dr. Joseph Kim on SDN that have credibility in their nonclinial careers because of the MD degree.
.

An MD degree will only help you in a nonclinical career if you have completed residency. Otherwise, an MD degree will not help you in a nonclinical career.
 
An MD degree will only help you in a nonclinical career if you have completed residency. Otherwise, an MD degree will not help you in a nonclinical career.

The exceptions, of course, being bestselling authors and advisers to Hollywood. ;)
 
The exceptions, of course, being bestselling authors and advisers to Hollywood. ;)

Exception (singular)- Michael Crichton, who I believe did complete an internship. Also, he graduated medical school in '69, when residency was not necessary. I don't know any other exceptions, but please let me know if you do.

So, let me restate/clarify my point: An MD degree obtained this century will not help you in a nonclinical career unless you complete residency.

Upon further reflection, Blue Dog, I guess an MD degree without residency could give you the experience necessary to write medical fiction. But the MD degree itself won't open any doors for you without residency.
 
I guess an MD degree without residency could give you the experience necessary to write medical fiction. But the MD degree itself won't open any doors for you without residency.

I agree, completely.

Crichton is who I was thinking of, too.
 
Coming from a niave 4th year medical student I would do it again, but after reading all these posts I'm not so sure!:(
 
Medical school opens more doors of opportunity than law school, business school, or dental school.

I still believe that the healthcare field is the way to go. But you have many options. You can go to medical, dental, podiatry, optometry, chiropractic, PA, NP, AA, CRNA, etc school. Each field has their pros and cons. But for me, after having carefully evaluated these diverse fields and having a better understanding of myself, dental school would have been the best fit. However, that may not be true for the next person. I am not an academic. I don't enjoy mental masturbation. I don't like to spend my free time reading esoteric textbooks and journals. I rather travel and do fun and new things. I like to play videogames. I am practical. I like business and economics. I like to see a good return on my investment. Sure, dentistry is no guarantee of success. Newly minted dentists can be taken advantage by practices or corporations, but you have to approach dentistry very much as a business. Not everyone will succeed, but that's also true in practically any field. Some of my fiance's fellow classmates from dental school are struggling right now. That's because they went into dental school expecting little work and high reward. That's never true in business. I would be willing to take those risks because I believe that I have the personality, skills, and interests to overcome those obstacles. Like I said, I've done my due diligence on this topic. I have 2 sister-in-law's who are also dentists.

PS - A high school kid that I tutored is now an orthodontist. When I knew him, I thought he wasn't the the sharpest tool in the shed. In face, he failed to get into medical school. Trust me, your chances of getting into orthodontics from dental school is far greater than getting into derm, plastics, ENT, etc from medical school.
 
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i heard of docs as long back as i can remember saying "don't do it" for the exact reasons listed in these past two pages and i can see why.

now here's my 7 lbs....

back when i was 20ish, i listened to these guys. i skipped med school in favor of becoming a physician assistant. went on to have fun in college (did well mind you, but much less pressure) and only had two years of a masters degree to endure before i saddled up to a nearly 100k job.

after three years of practice, i scrapped it all to head back to medical school :eek: (I KNOW RIGHT?!?!?!)... why? well that's another story, but here's where this decision became one of the best choices of my life.

I skipped the US app process and headed right to the caribbean within months of my decision. two years of living on a caribbean island kicked butt!!!! Once i got back to the states for clinicals the adventure didn't stop: I lived in 5 cities throughout 3rd and 4th year and could've had more if i wanted. i'm talkin New York, New Orleans, Miami, Chicago, Phoenix, Kansas City, Cincinnati, Baltimore.....:thumbup:

the obvious negative is what's a carib degree worth? well for me it looks to be a radiology match, but my results are definately in the minority. most will have few options beyond primary care.

So, would i do it again?
well, if couldn't have made an adventure out of it and gotten some stories to tell from it all, then no. 4 years is a long time. loss of income and accumulation of debt is not cool, and there were times when i was jealous of friends who had stable 9-5 careers with a house & kids etc. That's really something i've noticed as of late though perhaps because i'm 31 and engaged now. At 28, I wanted to be a doctor and i didn't want a case of the "what ifs" in my old age. listen, the grass will always be greener on the otherside. they look at us with envy just was we do them.

and with that, i'm ready to be done with med school and am looking forward to the next adventure.... if there is such a thing as a radiology resident :confused:

enjoy the journey folks. don't wait until you've reached your destination to be happy.
 
Dr. Joseph Kim never went to residency and is very successful. There are many others.
 
Dr. Joseph Kim never went to residency and is very successful. There are many others.

I'd like to hear Dr. Kim's perspective, but I believe he is an entrepeneur who benefited from the knowledge he gained in med school. the actual MD deg itself isn't worth much without residency training.
 
I really appreciate threads like this. I went from being on the track to becoming a humanities professor to jumping into the premed curriculum in the middle of college and working my butt off to get good grades in all my science classes. I really loved the atmosphere of the hospital I worked in over the summer and really thought medicine was something I could spend my life doing. I also got EMT certification and spent many hours observing in the ER to see if I could stand the physical and emotional distress involved with seeing people in pain, and I was able to handle it. I really enjoyed my bio classes too and developed a real joy for learning.

I was planning on applying this summer but have been plagued with doubt for the past 3 months. My financial knowledge has tripled in these 3 months (still have some work to do), and I am mortified by the prospect of 250k+ in loans coupled with 4 years of opportunity cost. The final nail in the coffin was seeing what a 170k salary looks like after taxes. I really had no idea what I would be in for until I ran the numbers myself (monthly paycheck size, monthly loan payment, compounding interest, etc).

I wanted to do medicine because I thought I would have a job that would allow me to wake up everyday with the satisfaction of knowing that I was positively impacting peoples' lives. I also thought that I'd have enough money to raise a family, help support my parents if needed, and have some left over for charity. I realized it would take a lot of personal sacrifice but thought there would be some respite at some point; however, it doesn't seem like there will be.

At this point, I can't justify spending the next 7 years scrambling for test scores/performance marks and bearing such a huge financial burden when I know that it will prove to be detrimental for my current & future family (which is one of the two things I value above a career).

It's so hard to forsake this path though. So many people watched me work hard to tackle the science coursework and are telling me I'd be wasting my potential if I didn't pursue med school. My parents also rallied behind me and gave me money for MCAT studying materials & provided me with transportation and food so I could focus on schoolwork. It was all coming together beautifully until I ran the numbers... and now I feel so tormented.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input on this thread. It's given me a lot to think about.
 
Remember, too, that $250K in loans is most certainly an extreme. State med schools (where you're in-state, obviously), will not saddle you with nearly so much debt. Similarly, private schools attached to well-endowed universities won't either, since they have so much more money to give out in the form of grants, non-interest-bearing loans and scholarships. Since I just attended my financial aid exit interview, I can tell you our stats: for Columbia P&S students *who took loans* (meaning not everybody-- just those who took some loans), the average graduating debt burden of undergrad + med school is just barely over $100,000. There are three people in the class with over $250,000 in debt, and most of that came from expensive post-bacc programs.

And that's not rich parents-- rich parents pay their kids' tuition bills in total. That's subsidized education.
 
I'd like to hear Dr. Kim's perspective, but I believe he is an entrepeneur who benefited from the knowledge he gained in med school. the actual MD deg itself isn't worth much without residency training.

If dr.kim did not do a residency, that is pretty embarrassing professionally.

In that case I doubt he will respond. Furthermore, he would have very little credibility without having done a residency.
 
If dr.kim did not do a residency, that is pretty embarrassing professionally.

In that case I doubt he will respond. Furthermore, he would have very little credibility without having done a residency.

Why?

He has never claimed to have done a residency and offers advice on how to have a successful career for those who do not wish to, cannot or do not (for whatever reason) complete a residency.
 
Why?

He has never claimed to have done a residency and offers advice on how to have a successful career for those who do not wish to, cannot or do not (for whatever reason) complete a residency.

:thumbup:
Agree 100%. He also offers advice for those who have completed residency but would like to swith to a nonclinical field. I enjoy reading his postings.
 
Also, if you google orthodontic dentists notice how many of them went back to medical school afterwards to get their MDs. Hmmm. I wonder why? I am sure you can figure it the most number of different opportunties available for success.

really?

I've never in my life met an orthodontist who wished he/she was a medical doctor!
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


How do you figure? Medical school prepares you for one job: doctor. That's pretty versatile... :rolleyes:

I agree.... Every specialty between Anesthesiology to Urology have so much in common.

Over 30 different specialties and subspecialties to find your niche.

Yeah I would rather go to Dental school because it has how many different opportunties.

As for CRNA... who are you kidding. Most of the people that got accepted to medical school were top students in High School. Do you honestly believe you would have gone to nursing school after getting outstanding grades to get a scholarship or a top college.

Yeah right.

We all say it doesnt matter but. Most premeds are status ****** and preferentially will always choose medical school over dental school and nursing school.

Sure there might be a couple people with tha aptitude to get accepted to medical school that decide to go to dental school or nursing school.

However, in reality very few people will pick dental school or nursing school or medical school as an undergrad in college if given an opportunity to go to medical school.

Medical school will always be much more competitive than dental school and nursing school. The reason.

Dentistry is a good gig but Dermatology and Plastic Surgery are better gigs.

Also CRNA is a good gig but Anesthesiology is a better gig.

In fact, Radiation Oncology blows every gig out of the water.

Medical school allows you an opportunity to save lives like a Surgeon or Cardiologist, have a great lifestyle gig better than Dentistry such as Dermatology and Radiation Oncology while still getting the status of M.D.

Lets be honest, there is a lot of reasonable arguments on here but Not many people that apply and get accepted to medical school would turn it down as a college student to go to nursing school or dental school.
 
Dont like esoteric texts?

I hope you are not going into radiology. You will be absolutely miserable reading a different esoteric textbook every rotation month in radiology. I ll put it this way. In your neuroradiology rotation you will have to read a textbook the size of robbins book of pathology known as Neuroradiology requisites.
12 different rotations mean 12 different textbooks you ahve to read to keep up.

You will easily read between 3500 to 5000 pages of esoteric radiology reading your first year in radiology. Only pathology can rival the discipline needed to read all of the time.

Just imagine hating the content and having to reread the same page to pay attention.



I still believe that the healthcare field is the way to go. But you have many options. You can go to medical, dental, podiatry, optometry, chiropractic, PA, NP, AA, CRNA, etc school. Each field has their pros and cons. But for me, after having carefully evaluated these diverse fields and having a better understanding of myself, dental school would have been the best fit. However, that may not be true for the next person. I am not an academic. I don't enjoy mental masturbation. I don't like to spend my free time reading esoteric textbooks and journals. I rather travel and do fun and new things. I like to play videogames. I am practical. I like business and economics. I like to see a good return on my investment. Sure, dentistry is no guarantee of success. Newly minted dentists can be taken advantage by practices or corporations, but you have to approach dentistry very much as a business. Not everyone will succeed, but that's also true in practically any field. Some of my fiance's fellow classmates from dental school are struggling right now. That's because they went into dental school expecting little work and high reward. That's never true in business. I would be willing to take those risks because I believe that I have the personality, skills, and interests to overcome those obstacles. Like I said, I've done my due diligence on this topic. I have 2 sister-in-law's who are also dentists.

PS - A high school kid that I tutored is now an orthodontist. When I knew him, I thought he wasn't the the sharpest tool in the shed. In face, he failed to get into medical school. Trust me, your chances of getting into orthodontics from dental school is far greater than getting into derm, plastics, ENT, etc from medical school.
 
I want to add a different point too.

When you're thinking about going to med school it's this kind of romantic challenge you lay down for yourself, kind of the nerd's version of climbing Mt. Everest but with a lot more time commitment and long term ramifications.

The thing is, once you've done it it's no longer the mystical achievement. It's just something you did. I know that feeling when you're training for the climb. No one can dissuade you and nothing can stand in your way. That's why pre meds never listen when doctors tell them about all the bad stuff like loans and liability and so on.

At least with Mt. Everest after you walk away you're free. After you climb med school you are chained to big debt, high liability and you may have even lost a big chunk of your humanity.

couldnt' have said it better myself. I think I would have been much happier if my family and loved ones were close by. I think its really important to have a very solid support system around you; which I unfortunately don't have.

My personal life is in the crapper and my relations with my family are at times strained... thats what gets me down more than anything else... if it wasn't for the long hours/lack of enough personal time things might be better.

Its not medicine I regret itself but the fact that I should have done it earlier, gotten in to a med school/residency closer to my immidiate family.

The med school debt weighs down on me quite heavily..I owe about 250K and am actually actively paying it off in residency.

If I had just one wish, it would be to do it over again but earlier, close to my family and to have put more time into my personal life. Ultimately, the ones who did not get AOA in med school or got into 'lower tiered' programs will be just as successful as myself. Many are happily married and have full lives. Its all about a balance... that I regretfully did not maintain.
 
To each his/her own. Everyone is different.

Some of my former medical school classmates are glad that they took their time before going to medical school.

They say it gave them perspective about life and gave them real life experience. It allowed them to appreciate the opportunity that medical school gives them. Some of the most jaded residents are the ones that went straight through without taking time off.

PreMeds/Medical Students/Residents complain about trivial matters all the time. The people that should be complaining don't even have an internet to voice their opinions because they don't have the privileges that we take for granted in our lives.

We all knew that we were going to be in debt and make peanuts as residents. This isn't some breaking news that we learned during residency. The reason it matters now is because when you are unhappy, you want to point at something now to make yourself feel better temporarily. Negativity is a frame of mind.

Instead focus on something that will make the situation better. It is about control. Many on here that complain feel TRAPPED. That is the issue.

This forum is filled with highly intelligent, driven people. The problem with intellect is that it predisposes one to analyze every single situation like a test question after the exam is returned i.e. why did I pick that answer choice. We all picked the best choice based on the information we had at the time. Don't discount your life choices because you regret it now.

To say one would have not gone to medical school and instead and gone to nursing school to become a CRNA or dentistry to go into orthodontics or cosmetic dentistry is just a way of feeling sorry for yourself.

Being a CRNA and a Dentist has its downside as well. We focus on the positive things in other fields but don't think about the complete picture. For example, Orthodontics and Cosmetic Dentistry is saturated in the best markets.

Let's face it. Dental and nursing school will never be as competitive as medical school. Going to medical school is still the best path if you want to go into health care. You just have to be honest with yourself and pick the right path for yourself.

Do you want prestige? Surgery, Cardiology, Sports Medicine
Do you want to make money? Orthopedics, Spine Surgery, Neurosurgery
Do you want lifestyle? Dermatology and Radiation Oncology.
Do you want to build relationships with patients? Family Medicine and Pediatrics.
Do you want power? Physician Executive/CEO.
Do you want to help mankind? Infectious Disease Physician in 3rd world countries.

Just remember if you pick prestige you might not get lifestyle. Or if you pick lifestyle you might not get prestige. If you want lifestyle don't pick ER or Radiology because you will work third shifts, weekends, and holidays. Analyze the pros and cons of every specialty. You have to be honest with yourself.

Everyone has a different path to happiness. Instead of focusing on past decisions as "bad choices" is defeating. Focus on the present and the future. You may feel trapped thus offer "advice" to make yourself feel better.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves by being negative and bringing down the morale of everyone else. Misery does love company.

couldnt' have said it better myself. I think I would have been much happier if my family and loved ones were close by. I think its really important to have a very solid support system around you; which I unfortunately don't have.

My personal life is in the crapper and my relations with my family are at times strained... thats what gets me down more than anything else... if it wasn't for the long hours/lack of enough personal time things might be better.

Its not medicine I regret itself but the fact that I should have done it earlier, gotten in to a med school/residency closer to my immidiate family.

The med school debt weighs down on me quite heavily..I owe about 250K and am actually actively paying it off in residency.

If I had just one wish, it would be to do it over again but earlier, close to my family and to have put more time into my personal life. Ultimately, the ones who did not get AOA in med school or got into 'lower tiered' programs will be just as successful as myself. Many are happily married and have full lives. Its all about a balance... that I regretfully did not maintain.
 
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Dont like esoteric texts?

I hope you are not going into radiology. You will be absolutely miserable reading a different esoteric textbook every rotation month in radiology. I ll put it this way. In your neuroradiology rotation you will have to read a textbook the size of robbins book of pathology known as Neuroradiology requisites.
12 different rotations mean 12 different textbooks you ahve to read to keep up.

You will easily read between 3500 to 5000 pages of esoteric radiology reading your first year in radiology. Only pathology can rival the discipline needed to read all of the time.

Just imagine hating the content and having to reread the same page to pay attention.

I can put up with it for 4 years of radiology residency. What I can't put up with is a career in such fields as IM, peds, FM, surg, etc. The key to happiness in medicine I believe is "don't follow patients". Your nights, weekends, holidays will be affected. You will always need someone to cover for your pts when you go on vacation. That's why I would rate non-clinical fields like rads, gas, EM, path and clinic-based fields like rad onc, derm, ophtho highly. Then you have to consider your own interests, strengths, income level, and job prospects for each field. All of the fields I mentioned except path would satisfy my requirements.

Since you praise rad onc so highly, I suspect that you're either a resident in it or highly interested in it. You must have short-term memory. Rad onc barely averted 40% Medicare cuts just a few months ago. Would you be singing the same praise of rad onc as you do now? Who is to say that Medicare won't try to pass the 40% cuts at a later time? Irregardless of reimbursement level, I didn't consider rad onc seriously because in my eyes it is a one-trick pony. Radiation is a dirty, dirty tool. If people can avoid radiation, they should. What if more Gleevec-type drugs are discovered? What if the cure for most cancers comes in a bottle in the future? Never say never. Don't go into a field for money or lifestyle necessarily. You have to look further down the road to see what could become of the field.
 
I agree.... Every specialty between Anesthesiology to Urology have so much in common.

Over 30 different specialties and subspecialties to find your niche.

Yeah I would rather go to Dental school because it has how many different opportunties.

As for CRNA... who are you kidding. Most of the people that got accepted to medical school were top students in High School. Do you honestly believe you would have gone to nursing school after getting outstanding grades to get a scholarship or a top college.

Yeah right.

We all say it doesnt matter but. Most premeds are status ****** and preferentially will always choose medical school over dental school and nursing school.

Sure there might be a couple people with tha aptitude to get accepted to medical school that decide to go to dental school or nursing school.

However, in reality very few people will pick dental school or nursing school or medical school as an undergrad in college if given an opportunity to go to medical school.

Medical school will always be much more competitive than dental school and nursing school. The reason.

Dentistry is a good gig but Dermatology and Plastic Surgery are better gigs.

Also CRNA is a good gig but Anesthesiology is a better gig.

In fact, Radiation Oncology blows every gig out of the water.

Medical school allows you an opportunity to save lives like a Surgeon or Cardiologist, have a great lifestyle gig better than Dentistry such as Dermatology and Radiation Oncology while still getting the status of M.D.

Lets be honest, there is a lot of reasonable arguments on here but Not many people that apply and get accepted to medical school would turn it down as a college student to go to nursing school or dental school.


I A) don't believe you're a physician and B) do not consider 30 paths IN THE SAME FIELD OF MEDICINE to be "opening a lot of doors". Having an MD (or a DO) degree is only good for one thing: being a doctor. Whether you look in ears or *****holes all day, you're still a physician. If you decide you don't actually want to practice medicine, you have a useless degree. Sure, Dr. Tweedledee, M.D. looks pretty cool on a business card, but no one gives two ****s about MD's outside of a medical setting.
 
Orthodontics and Cosmetic Dentistry is saturated in the best markets.

You're going out of your comfort zone on this topic. There's more to dentistry than cosmetic dentistry. Anybody can whiten teeth. My fiance's aunt is a general dentist in Dallas and makes $300k working 5 days a week 9-5. She does most of her own endo, ortho, and implants. If you structure your practice correctly, you can make a very good living for yourself in dentistry. I've been giving my fiance a lot of business advice on how to pursue her career.

It's great that you like to trumpet derm and rad onc so much. But what are the chances of a typical med student to get into one of these fields? Derm has like 340 positions and rad onc has like 100 or so. There will be nearly 23000 US MD students in a few years. Good luck trying to get into derm or rad onc. It would be the equivalent of hitting the lottery for many students. If I could guarantee someone a derm residency, then maybe I could convince that person to go to medical school. But that's a fantasy for vast majority of students. Most medical students will end up in IM, FM, peds, psych, surg, etc. A typical person has far better chance of getting into ortho or endo from dental school than derm or rad onc from medical school. Let's be realistic and don't give people pie-in-the-sky hopes. Even if you don't get ortho or endo, you can simply go to work as a general dentist, keep a nice life, and maybe make mad income.
 
Taurus, you are so smart. I agree with you.

So since you seem to know so much about dentistry lets see if you actually believe what you preach and be consistent.

I propose you apply to dental school. Since you have already have done medical school you will receive advanced standing which means only 2 years to become a dentist. Furthermore since you are a lowly intern you actually save tiome and can start making money sooner i.e. 2 more years as a dental student vs 2 to 5 more years as a resident.

Hey dentistry is such a good gig so switch buddy.

If you conviction is as strong as your posts on SDN this is a no brainer.

M thru F with 8 to 5 hours with no call.

Taurus, thank god you realize this now as an intern while the opportunity cost is not high to switch.

Keep us up to date.



You're going out of your comfort zone on this topic. There's more to dentistry than cosmetic dentistry. Anybody can whiten teeth. My fiance's aunt is a general dentist in Dallas and makes $300k working 5 days a week 9-5. She does most of her own endo, ortho, and implants. If you structure your practice correctly, you can make a very good living for yourself in dentistry. I've been giving my fiance a lot of business advice on how to pursue her career.

It's great that you like to trumpet derm and rad onc so much. But what are the chances of a typical med student to get into one of these fields? Derm has like 340 positions and rad onc has like 100 or so. There will be nearly 23000 US MD students in a few years. Good luck trying to get into derm or rad onc. It would be the equivalent of hitting the lottery for many students. If I could guarantee someone a derm residency, then maybe I could convince that person to go to medical school. But that's a fantasy for vast majority of students. Most medical students will end up in IM, FM, peds, psych, surg, etc. A typical person has far better chance of getting into ortho or endo from dental school than derm or rad onc from medical school. Let's be realistic and don't give people pie-in-the-sky hopes. Even if you don't get ortho or endo, you can simply go to work as a general dentist, keep a nice life, and maybe make mad income.
 
Just love people that cant get into medical school justifying their lack of opportunity by saying medical school sucks.

As I mentioned earlier Dr. Kim is in a nonclinical field with his MD degree. Perhaps if your verbal reasoning skills were higher you wouldn have a higher MCAT score to get into medical school.

Here is another one. You can be a physician consultant in the pharmaceutical industry.

I A) don't believe you're a physician and B) do not consider 30 paths IN THE SAME FIELD OF MEDICINE to be "opening a lot of doors". Having an MD (or a DO) degree is only good for one thing: being a doctor. Whether you look in ears or *****holes all day, you're still a physician. If you decide you don't actually want to practice medicine, you have a useless degree. Sure, Dr. Tweedledee, M.D. looks pretty cool on a business card, but no one gives two ****s about MD's outside of a medical setting.
 
I don't think I would do this all again, at least if I knew then what I know now. I really liked the Everest analogy, that was really good and agree with it.
 
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Absolutely not. I'd like to have some say in my life - like say where I work or practice. **** Medicine. I wish I'd done something else with my life.
 
I'm pre-pre med but I can't stop myself from chiming in.

A few observations:
-I do think someone going into medicine needs to do it for the right reasons. Can you fathom doing something 60-80 hours a week for the rest of your life and not liking it? Also nothing is certain--the money is not certain, a certain lifestyle is not a given, so you should accept those things on top of the crazy hours.
-My parents are both in medicine (mom is a NP but makes more than some primary care docs) and they have been debt-free for more than 15 years, but money is a constant worry. First it was the med school debt, then it was getting us kids through college, now it's retirement. My uncle makes significantly more than they do as a cardiologist and he worries about money. For most people, you always find a way to spend it, no matter how much you make. I've never thought of medicine as a ticket to some sort of extravagant lifestyle for this reason, but it does allow parents to do what they want for their kids like pay for college and weddings (most of the time) and it is a stable job.
-I was out in the real world for several years (but it happened to be in Russia so maybe that's worse??) and it was not easy to do well there, especially once the crisis hit. I think earning the income a doctor earns out in the commercial sector takes luck, tons of work, persistence, etc. a lot of the time. I couldn't really figure out how to make that work and didn't feel passionate about any of my options. I feel like with medicine they show you the path to success and you just have to work your butt off without much thought of what strategic steps to take. If you do your best, you can get some sort of a job (people in more competitive specialities probably have to be more strategic and more brainy).

My parents work a lot, but they never seemed to have less free time than non-doctor parents. I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel and if it's what you love, you will have a good life and a satisfying career.

PS-- they did recommend, for lifestyle reasons, becoming a pharmacist or a dentist "if (I) can stand it" but I think I take after them. I like people and diseases!
 
I'm pre-pre med but I can't stop myself from chiming in.

A few observations:
-I do think someone going into medicine needs to do it for the right reasons. Can you fathom doing something 60-80 hours a week for the rest of your life and not liking it? Also nothing is certain--the money is not certain, a certain lifestyle is not a given, so you should accept those things on top of the crazy hours.
-My parents are both in medicine (mom is a NP but makes more than some primary care docs) and they have been debt-free for more than 15 years, but money is a constant worry. First it was the med school debt, then it was getting us kids through college, now it's retirement. My uncle makes significantly more than they do as a cardiologist and he worries about money. For most people, you always find a way to spend it, no matter how much you make. I've never thought of medicine as a ticket to some sort of extravagant lifestyle for this reason, but it does allow parents to do what they want for their kids like pay for college and weddings (most of the time) and it is a stable job.
-I was out in the real world for several years (but it happened to be in Russia so maybe that's worse??) and it was not easy to do well there, especially once the crisis hit. I think earning the income a doctor earns out in the commercial sector takes luck, tons of work, persistence, etc. a lot of the time. I couldn't really figure out how to make that work and didn't feel passionate about any of my options. I feel like with medicine they show you the path to success and you just have to work your butt off without much thought of what strategic steps to take. If you do your best, you can get some sort of a job (people in more competitive specialities probably have to be more strategic and more brainy).

My parents work a lot, but they never seemed to have less free time than non-doctor parents. I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel and if it's what you love, you will have a good life and a satisfying career.

PS-- they did recommend, for lifestyle reasons, becoming a pharmacist or a dentist "if (I) can stand it" but I think I take after them. I like people and diseases!

You are a premed so you pretty much have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.
 
Taurus, you are so smart. I agree with you.

So since you seem to know so much about dentistry lets see if you actually believe what you preach and be consistent.

I propose you apply to dental school. Since you have already have done medical school you will receive advanced standing which means only 2 years to become a dentist. Furthermore since you are a lowly intern you actually save tiome and can start making money sooner i.e. 2 more years as a dental student vs 2 to 5 more years as a resident.

Hey dentistry is such a good gig so switch buddy.

If you conviction is as strong as your posts on SDN this is a no brainer.

M thru F with 8 to 5 hours with no call.

Taurus, thank god you realize this now as an intern while the opportunity cost is not high to switch.

Keep us up to date.

Is this your best comeback? Ad hominems? :laugh: I guess I have reached your limit. The emperor has no clothes I see. :laugh:

My advice is for those people who are in the pre-med stage. If I could go back in time, this is what I would have done knowing what I know now. It would be a huge opportunity cost for anyone to do both medical and dental school, unless it is for OMFS residency. I said I am a practical person and I focus on the return on investment. I started to have doubts about medicine in 2nd year and 3rd year cemented my views. Unfortunately by then, it's nearly impossible to switch out of medicine into dentistry unless you want to take a huge hit. Most dental programs won't give you advanced credit for doing medical school. They want all 4 years of tuition money from you. Intern year is everything about medicine I hate come true. So what to do if you find yourself in this predicament? Choose your specialty very, very carefully. Look at the entire field, the good and bad. Don't go into surg because you think it's cool to cut people. Think about doing your 2000th appy at 3AM when you're 50 years old. Don't go into internal medicine because you like the cerebral aspect. Think about the mind-boggling paperwork and billing BS you have to put up with. It's the non-medical aspects of medicine that really turns people off to the field. For me, I was fortunate enough to find a field that satisfied all my criteria and I was competitive enough to match into. However, most students will not be able to match into one of the nicer specialties like derm, rad, rad onc, gas, etc. Most people will be forced to go into IM, FM, peds, psych, surg because they're not competitive enough. If that's the case, then it's not worth pursuing medicine.
 
Check mate my friend.

If you are not going to switch to dentistry you have no logical footing to speak. You dug yourself into this. Only logical way out is to switch to dentistry.

Im sure you are smart enough to see this.

Is this your best comeback? Ad hominems? :laugh: I guess I have reached your limit. The emperor has no clothes I see. :laugh:

My advice is for those people who are in the pre-med stage. If I could go back in time, this is what I would have done knowing what I know now. It would be a huge opportunity cost for anyone to do both medical and dental school, unless it is for OMFS residency. I said I am a practical person and I focus on the return on investment. I started to have doubts about medicine in 2nd year and 3rd year cemented my views. Unfortunately by then, it's nearly impossible to switch out of medicine into dentistry unless you want to take a huge hit. Most dental programs won't give you advanced credit for doing medical school. They want all 4 years of tuition money from you. Intern year is everything about medicine I hate come true. So what to do if you find yourself in this predicament? Choose your specialty very, very carefully. Look at the entire field, the good and bad. Don't go into surg because you think it's cool to cut people. Think about doing your 2000th appy at 3AM when you're 50 years old. Don't go into internal medicine because you like the cerebral aspect. Think about the mind-boggling paperwork and billing BS you have to put up with. It's the non-medical aspects of medicine that really turns people off to the field. For me, I was fortunate enough to find a field that satisfied all my criteria and I was competitive enough to match into. However, most students will not be able to match into one of the nicer specialties like derm, rad, rad onc, gas, etc. Most people will be forced to go into IM, FM, peds, psych, surg because they're not competitive enough. If that's the case, then it's not worth pursuing medicine.
 
Gas is more competitive than Surgery?
 
>200k in loans

Cerberus, do yourself a favor and get out of medicine.

You are absolutely miserable and this frame of mind is something you cant turn off.

If you are not going to do it for yourself do it for your patients, premeds that you are in contact with, and medical students you are around.

Your misery brings everyone around you down. The patient you are working with as a physician is somebodys family member they do not deserve a miserable physician. Just imagine if your mother or father was treated by a physician with your mindset.

Furthermore, your attitude is killing the spirit of good people that truly want to become a physician. You are being selfish by complaining and bringing everyone down.

In reality medicine is not a goo field for you but everyone is different with different motivations.

We need intelligent, hard working, and positive physicians for our family members. I am sure you would want that for your family so the choice is easy. Get out.

You will be doing yourself and everyone around you a favor.
 
Medicine ain't the only way to make money.

Do what you love. Life's too short.

Be specific. What exactly is someone to do that is a graduating US Senior with 200k+ of loans? Its easy to say nonsense platitudes like "there are easier ways to make money than this!"
 
Be specific. What exactly is someone to do that is a graduating US Senior with 200k+ of loans? Its easy to say nonsense platitudes like "there are easier ways to make money than this!"

What do you mean, "be specific?" What are you guys, in your 20's? You can do practically anything you want...if you have the balls.

Whining is pathetic.
 
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