If you could do it over would you?

[vhawk]

Cerberus, do yourself a favor and get out of medicine.

You are absolutely miserable and this frame of mind is something you cant turn off.

If you are not going to do it for yourself do it for your patients, premeds that you are in contact with, and medical students you are around.

Your misery brings everyone around you down. The patient you are working with as a physician is somebodys family member they do not deserve a miserable physician. Just imagine if your mother or father was treated by a physician with your mindset.

Furthermore, your attitude is killing the spirit of good people that truly want to become a physician. You are being selfish by complaining and bringing everyone down.

In reality medicine is not a goo field for you but everyone is different with different motivations.

We need intelligent, hard working, and positive physicians for our family members. I am sure you would want that for your family so the choice is easy. Get out.

You will be doing yourself and everyone around you a favor.

lol

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[vhawk]

What do you mean, "be specific?" What are you guys, in your 20's? You can do practically anything you want...if you have the balls.

Whining is pathetic.

Worst example of being specific in internet history.

 

[deleted87716]

Worst example of being specific in internet history.

I'm not anyone's life coach, dude.

 

[BlueManGroup]

Be specific. What exactly is someone to do that is a graduating US Senior with 200k+ of loans? Its easy to say nonsense platitudes like "there are easier ways to make money than this!"

Find a way. That isnt our problem. If people used thir energy and mind to find a way instead of spending their time on SDN complaining to feel better about themselves and started searching I am sure you can figure it out.

Lets be practical. By complaining your life sucks because you went into medicine what does that accomplish. Are you seeking sympathy?

Sure you can say you are trying to save premeds from going into medcine because of your mistake but this is BS. Everyone is different. You cannot say that since you made a mistake everyone else will be making a mistake by going into medical school.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves. It really is pathetic to hear it over and over.

Go find a way. Break out of the feed me mindset and do it yourself.

 

[vhawk]

I'm not anyone's life coach, dude.

Yeah, thanks, you are really helping a ton in this thread.

 

[vhawk]

Find a way. That isnt our problem. If people used thir energy and mind to find a way instead of spending their time on SDN complaining to feel better about themselves and started searching I am sure you can figure it out.

Lets be practical. By complaining your life sucks because you went into medicine what does that accomplish. Are you seeking sympathy?

Sure you can say you are trying to save premeds from going into medcine because of your mistake but this is BS. Everyone is different. You cannot say that since you made a mistake everyone else will be making a mistake by going into medical school.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves. It really is pathetic to hear it over and over.

Go find a way. Break out of the feed me mindset and do it yourself.

Congrats on your runner up trophy for worst example of being specific in internet history. Bonus points for "go find a way." Super constructive.

 

[deleted87716]

Yeah, thanks, you are really helping a ton in this thread.

And you are...?

 

[wild0ne]

Do what you love. Life's too short.

That's a convenient way of looking at things - if you're in high school.

Unfortunately, when you grow up, life becomes more complicated. Walking away from a career (with 11+ years of investment and $100sK in debt) is not as simple as suddenly deciding to "do what you love". In medicine, unlike many careers, once you leave, it's very difficult to return. So, you have to be certain of your decision. Weighing finances, job security, impact on family, etc. - all come into play.

Trust me, I'm all for following your passion and doing what you love. But, it's not as simple as simply doing it.

 

[vhawk]

And you are...?

Yes, I am commiserating. That is orders of magnitude more helpful than "find a way" or "reach for the stars" or whatever nonsense you are suggesting.

You know its actually really, incredibly difficult to just up and quit when you are saddled with mindboggling debt, and have a highly specific skill set right? Congrats on being happy with your chosen profession. I am too, and I consider myself amazingly lucky to be so. I am DROOLING with anticipation to start at my program, because I feel like I would love to be a surgeon, and it will be extremely rewarding, and even though I didnt match at my top program, I was able to match at a really great place with fantastic residents that provides great training.

But I also have an imagination, and a little compassion, so I'm able to empathize with someone who isnt.

 

[deleted87716]

Unfortunately, when you grow up, life becomes more complicated. Walking away from a career (with 11+ years of investment and $100sK in debt) is not as simple as suddenly deciding to "do what you love".

Talk to the hand. I'm in my early 40's, and already left one career to go into medicine.

I'm not impressed.

 

[vhawk]

That's a convenient way of looking at things - if you're in high school.

Unfortunately, when you grow up, life becomes more complicated. Walking away from a career (with 11+ years of investment and $100sK in debt) is not as simple as suddenly deciding to "do what you love". In medicine, unlike many careers, once you leave, it's very difficult to return. So, you have to be certain of your decision. Weighing finances, job security, impact on family, etc. - all come into play.

Trust me, I'm all for following your passion and doing what you love. But, it's not as simple as simply doing it.

But....but...."find a way!" lol

 

[vhawk]

Talk to the hand. I'm in my early 40's, and already left one career to go into medicine.

I'm not impressed.

Wow. Just a stunning job. You seriously just said "talk to the hand" and werent being ironic. I feel like I'm in fantasyland.

As if leaving a bull**** career to go into medicine is in any way analogous to leaving medicine saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to go into some bull**** career. Do you have any imagination at all?

Let me guess.....you just "found a way" right?

 

[BlueManGroup]

Congrats on your runner up trophy for worst example of being specific in internet history. Bonus points for "go find a way." Super constructive.

My job is not to find you a way. This is your life. You got yourself into this so find yourself out.

All I am saying is that complaining is getting very old. Dont you have friends outside of the internet to complain too. Honestly that is what friends are for. Have some dignity and stop seeking sympathy for your situation. It really is making you look like a trapped whiner.

Be a man and accept your situation and find a way out yourself. You are an adult now act like it. Stop looking for approval and expect someone to feed you the answer.

 

[Ashers]

Cerberus, do yourself a favor and get out of medicine.

You are absolutely miserable and this frame of mind is something you cant turn off.
...

Give him a break. He just had a disappointing match -- it feels just about as craptacular as having to scramble (I know -- I scrambled, and a few of my friends matched in places they ranked very low. They cried at match day, and I cried for the previous 3 days). We had a horrible match day (I only went because people made me). When I didn't match, my options were: 1) research, 2) prelim and reapply, 3) change specialties, 4) paleontology. Before scrambling, I actually started looking into how to get into a school to do paleontology; get out of medicine all together; AND move back to the West Coast.

And one can change their attitude. My friends, now, really like where they are. So I believe Cerberus is most likely going to have a change of heart... not immediately, because, yes, it sucks, but I think the chances are pretty good.

Someone can also hide their attitude from patients -- I managed not to let my hating what I'm doing affect my work and have patients comment on how I'm always so happy and like what I'm doing, when really, every day is the worst day of my life (at least for part of the year it was). I'm praying that come 1 July my life gets infinity plus 1 better, and I forget about the other specialty.

 

[deleted87716]

Wow. Just a stunning job. You seriously just said "talk to the hand" and werent being ironic. I feel like I'm in fantasyland.

As if leaving a bull**** career to go into medicine is in any way analogous to leaving medicine saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to go into some bull**** career. Do you have any imagination at all?

Let me guess.....you just "found a way" right?

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[wild0ne]

Talk to the hand. I'm in my early 40's, and already left one career to go into medicine.

I'm not impressed.

Going into medicine is quite a different story than leaving it. That is something you can decide to do tomorrow, and leave the day after if it suits you. Leaving residency is a one-way ticket.

Talk to the hand? Ignore list? You're 40?

 

[vhawk]

Welcome to my ignore list.

Better for everyone I'm sure. Will miss your stunning insights however. How will I "find a way!!?!?!"

 

[vhawk]

My job is not to find you a way. This is your life. You got yourself into this so find yourself out.

All I am saying is that complaining is getting very old. Dont you have friends outside of the internet to complain too. Honestly that is what friends are for. Have some dignity and stop seeking sympathy for your situation. It really is making you look like a trapped whiner.

Be a man and accept your situation and find a way out yourself. You are an adult now act like it. Stop looking for approval and expect someone to feed you the answer.

Not only is it not your JOB to find a way, you are incapable of finding a way. Which is fine, but that sort of failing would lead mortal men to refrain from offering advice. Maybe even refrain from posting in this thread altogether! Not you though, you plow ahead undaunted. Admirable.

 

[vhawk]

It is actually hilarious how "be specific" is apparently the wolfsbane of the concern trolls.

 

[medicinesux]

BlueManGroup, you should post over on SERMO rather than hang around here. I am sure they would be delighted to have you

 

[Cerberus]

Dude, screw you. You have no idea what kind of physician I'll be or why I miserable.

I like medicine itself, in fact I love it. What I hate about medicine is the rest of the bs associated with it. I hate having random, miserable, *******s giving me grades based on brief encounters with me. I hate having some algorithm decide where I end up for the next 3-4 years of my life. I hate the fact that I may or may not be able to even work in the location I want when I am done training. Medicine itself is great. The process is ****ing miserable.

Cerberus, do yourself a favor and get out of medicine.

You are absolutely miserable and this frame of mind is something you cant turn off.

If you are not going to do it for yourself do it for your patients, premeds that you are in contact with, and medical students you are around.

Your misery brings everyone around you down. The patient you are working with as a physician is somebodys family member they do not deserve a miserable physician. Just imagine if your mother or father was treated by a physician with your mindset.

Furthermore, your attitude is killing the spirit of good people that truly want to become a physician. You are being selfish by complaining and bringing everyone down.

In reality medicine is not a goo field for you but everyone is different with different motivations.

We need intelligent, hard working, and positive physicians for our family members. I am sure you would want that for your family so the choice is easy. Get out.

You will be doing yourself and everyone around you a favor.

 

[StanleyCup7]

Wow...can you say "hijacked thread"?

To the OP, yes I would choose to become a physician again. After having the privilege of paying ~$46,000/year in tuition for the past four years (and accumulating almost $230,000 in debt once living expenses are included) I am just as concerned as the next graduating medical student about the future of physician salaries and exactly how we are going to pay off our loans if compensation decreases significantly.

That being said, I feel very fortunate to be able to help people through some of their most difficult times of their life as they fight against cancer (I am going into RadOnc). I feel incredibly blessed to have found a field that I am so passionate about and a patient population that I feel the utmost sympathy for.

However, I can understand why some people may not be so excited about their choice of becoming a physician because if I was unable to go into RadOnc or Heme/Onc I would view medicine as a job rather than a vocation. Best of luck to the OP.

 

[sarcopenia]

Well, I'm about 3.5 months away from finishing FM residency (only 2 years in Canada, I know, it's shocking / dangerous / crazily brief), and things are looking okay from my POV.

I agree with the Canadian poster above about the malignancy of medical school and clinical rotations, about having your "fate determined" by the opinion(s) of the people evaluating you for a given month. But after almost being turfed from medical school because of my "outspokenness" on certain hot-button issues (think, ultra-right-wing conservative fundamentalist Christian type stuff), I've since learned to shut my mouth, take a lot of stuff up the *****, and choose my battles more carefully. I am disappointed that I have not been as "activist" as I could have been since then, but survival is important, especially when other people (family) depend on you. On the other hand, I have never violated my core values. If I am with a preceptor who does things a certain way that I do not agree with, and patients ask me to act likewise, I politely decline. For an innocuous example, maybe a preceptor I work with might be more liberal with drug-seekers. If the patient ends up in my clinic room, they won't get the narcotics that day. They'll have to try again next month, and if they're "lucky" they'll end up with the preceptor they like, not me.

Debt is in the high 5-figure range (combined educational debt from 5 degrees between my wife and I). Wife is home F/T with the kiddies right now, but may RTW once they are all in school. I'm signed on with the military, so I've got like 4.5 years return of service after. Pay will be in the mid-100k range for like 37 hours per week (I'm anticipating boring medicine, healthy patients, administrative BS) but I'll have to moonlight in ER +/- urgent care or something to keep up my clinical skills. Of course, during deployments (which are theoretically 6 months in duration, q2 years in the Can system) the pace will likely be more "balls to the wall," but hey, if I don't get killed, I'll have some interesting stories for the grandkids one day.

I'm going to focus on living frugally (not Kraft Dinner frugal, but say, living in a house < 2000 sq.ft in an inexpensive, non-metro area, and not going away on vacations every year) for the next 4-5 years. After that, I will "settle down" buy my "penultimate house" (i.e. the big, fancy one that can fit all the kids ... before the "ultimate" house ... the smaller, fancy once after the kids have moved out), and do some kind of "mixed practice" model so that all of my eggs are not in one basket.

Although Canada has SOME administrative BS: work injury compensation reports (WSIB), drug benefits forms, etc...the fact that the vast majority of billings is straight to the government (provincial health insurance plans) really streamlines things.

In terms of the US posters talking about family practices that are not financially viable, I have literally never heard of "unsustainable practices" where the profit margin is cut so thin as to be untenable. There may be some other important Canadian vs. US differences of which I'm not aware though.

Most of the family docs I see here are doing whatever they want. Some do "comprehensive care" (including Ob / walk-in / maybe ER / hospitalist), probably work 60+ hours per week, and bill $300-400k+ (in busy / downtown areas, overhead can be $120k to $150k though, and AFTER that has been taken off, our marginal tax rate is like 46% for gross income over $120k). One infamous resident graduating from my program billed ~ $800k in his first year post-grad by doing walk-in clinics only. I guess he must have paid off all of his educational debt, bought a house, whatever and then transitioned to something causing less burnout. Another family physician I worked with is at a hospital 3.5 days per week (and by "days" I mean only 8-9 hour days), and bills $200k. Another family physician I know is strictly a GP psychotherapist. He does like 3-4 days (again, I mean 8-hour days) per week, bills around $200k, and habitually takes 10-12 weeks of vacation per year.

In summary, life is good (in Canada, at least).

Also, I'm not sure what the pace is like in the US, but an average family doctor in my area probably sees 30 patients per day (although it probably ranges from like 20 - 60). In walk-in clinics I've worked at, a slow day would be 40 patients seen in 4 hours, but a few weeks ago while working with a preceptor we say something like 94 patients in 4 hours (I'm still super slow ... I only saw 20-25 of those).

Wow, that was way more than I intended to write. I realize now that it looks like I focussed on the financial side. This is not because that is what I focus on or dwell on each day necessarily (heck, I don't even handle my family finances or do the shopping!), but it seems to be one of the major areas of concern for people in this thread, so I thought I'd try and address it.

Good luck to all...

 

[231456]

If youre going to act like an *****hole then you may as well dispute some of what I wrote. I came out and said I'm a premed and its pretty obvious these are my own observations. Prick.

People, people. Settle down now!

With all respect, I do agree with Cerberus. Medicine is great if you are successfully able to get into something like radonc, heck! who wouldn't like a nice cush job like that? Awesome match my friend. I too would feel blessed if I knew I was facing making about 6-800 K a year by working 8-4, and never having to get my hands dirty.

For the rest of us, especially those who don't get into their dream specialty or who don't even get a match, or who do get into IM or FM (and wanted to) and then realize the incredible difficulties of the field - well, I think the Sermo post had alot of reality from some very seasoned physicians. Medicine is complex and hard, and there are no guarantees.

 

[BlueManGroup]

If you expect respect you must give others respect. It is truly pathetic that way you treated an innocent premed on this thread.

You are just a miserable timebomb that will detonate in the middle of your internship once you start receiving very poor evaluations.

Here is a little secret. The most common reason people fall low on their ranklist is due to interpersoanl communication. It is time for you to look at yourself in the mirror. Bad evaluations have one thing in common. YOU.

Lets see if you are mature enough to accept your situation and make the best of it. Instead of feeliing sorry for yourself and using displacement to take out your anger.

Your psyche is very easy and predictable to figure out. People that give you sympathy are only enabling your bad attitude. No one owes you sympathy on here. Go out and make friends in rral life.

Dude, screw you. You have no idea what kind of physician I'll be or why I miserable.

I like medicine itself, in fact I love it. What I hate about medicine is the rest of the bs associated with it. I hate having random, miserable, *******s giving me grades based on brief encounters with me. I hate having some algorithm decide where I end up for the next 3-4 years of my life. I hate the fact that I may or may not be able to even work in the location I want when I am done training. Medicine itself is great. The process is ****ing miserable.

 

[filter07]

I think there are truths to what everyone is saying here. Medicine does have its share of bureaucracy and junk that has nothing to do with making patients better. Whining about it doesn't help, but at the same time, it feels great. Misery loves company. If it is done on a forum, who cares?

I do have to defend BlueManGroup. He has a good point. A bad attitude can spread like cancer to people around you. Studies have shown this with depressed people. There are a lot of impressionable and eager young people out there, and for their sake we should try to remember to at least temper our negativity. I am one of the most negative people but I realize this is not the best example of leadership so I try to be more careful about what I say to premeds and med students, and even junior residents. Despite going through the same difficulties and bureaucracy as us, there are positive people out there that still find purpose and gratification from what they do. Spend more time with those people and adopt their frame of mind and practices. If you are truly "stuck" in medicine, you might as well make the best of it.

For those disappointed in the match, try to keep the big picture in mind. In the big picture, you are a doctor, who is well respected for all of the right reasons. You have a chance to make a lot of people's lives immeasurably better. You matched into your chosen specialty, and at a place you thought you could tolerate (assumed by you having ranked it rather than betting on the scramble). This is the big picture. Being at a certain geographical location, making a certain amount of money... those are important things too, but don't compare to one day being equipped to heal someone and relieve them of suffering. I have cynical and negative moods and as a general surgery resident I second guess my decision and commitment often. I am often guilty of the grass is greener thoughts of anesthesiology, radiology, or even dentistry. But I'm still here in general surgery training, even though I have had numerous opportunities to switch specialties, because I still find tremendous meaning and value to what I do.

One thing I should add is that we take a lot of things for granted. One thing is respect. You might say respect doesn't matter, and you'd rather work banker's hours and spend weekends on a yacht. Respect is huge, and you won't notice it until you lose it. I realize doctors don't get to walk around the hospital like demigods anymore, but we are still highly respected and people still greatly value what we do. That is one of the intangible benefits of being a doctor, and this perspective helps during the low moments.

 

[BlueManGroup]

Filter, thank you for an informative thoughtful post. The complaining cacophany is pure selfishness.

BTW, I completely agree with you on respect. This makes a big difference. In fact, a field such as radiology is bottom in terms of respect. So I wouldnt consider radiology a better field. Consider that 80 percent of the general public believe radiologists are graduates of a 4 year college program. Plus, nurses and other physicians all know that if there is a code a radiologist would not be helpful.
Radiology is a field that requires medical school but everything you learned in medical school is not useful in radiology.

Grass is definitely greener on the other side. Radiologists get sued more than any other physicians and the typical radiologist reads 200+ studies a day parked in a dark room with no social interaction.

Plus we all remember how our heads were fried after taking step 1 from concentrating for 10 hours.
That is a typical day in radiology. You have to concentrate on every single image and score a 100%. If a radiologist makes a mistake in diagnosis a patient can die. In fact, since radiologists reads so many ER emergent studies and post op bstudies, a radiologist has the potential to kill more patients than any other physician because of the number of patients that depend on CT for diagnosis.

A radiologist is legally responsible for 200+ patients a day. afailure to diagnose such as A pE or a subarachnoid hemorrage in the basilar cisterns can kill a patient due to failure to diagnose.

 

[BlueManGroup]

Correction...radiologists get sued more than any other physicians except OBGYN.

 

[Winged Scapula]

In terms of the US posters talking about family practices that are not financially viable, I have literally never heard of "unsustainable practices" where the profit margin is cut so thin as to be untenable. There may be some other important Canadian vs. US differences of which I'm not aware though.

Most of the family docs I see here are doing whatever they want. Some do "comprehensive care" (including Ob / walk-in / maybe ER / hospitalist), probably work 60+ hours per week, and bill $300-400k+ (in busy / downtown areas, overhead can be $120k to $150k though, and AFTER that has been taken off, our marginal tax rate is like 46% for gross income over $120k). One infamous resident graduating from my program billed ~ $800k in his first year post-grad by doing walk-in clinics only. I guess he must have paid off all of his educational debt, bought a house, whatever and then transitioned to something causing less burnout. Another family physician I worked with is at a hospital 3.5 days per week (and by "days" I mean only 8-9 hour days), and bills $200k. Another family physician I know is strictly a GP psychotherapist. He does like 3-4 days (again, I mean 8-hour days) per week, bills around $200k, and habitually takes 10-12 weeks of vacation per year.

In the US billing does not equal insurance reimbursement. I make about $0.31-$0.33 USD for every dollar I bill; that doesn't include the things I bill for that are denied or considered "bundled" and aren't ever paid.

How does it work with the nationalized system in Canada? Are the physicians you refer to reaping everything they bill? If so, that's impressive but if its a small percentage of what they bill, not so much.

 

[Knicks]

That's a convenient way of looking at things - if you're in high school.

Unfortunately, when you grow up, life becomes more complicated. Walking away from a career (with 11+ years of investment and $100sK in debt) is not as simple as suddenly deciding to "do what you love". In medicine, unlike many careers, once you leave, it's very difficult to return. So, you have to be certain of your decision. Weighing finances, job security, impact on family, etc. - all come into play.

Trust me, I'm all for following your passion and doing what you love. But, it's not as simple as simply doing it.

Exactly what I was trying to say in another thread about how some people should refrain from instantly telling others, "You're in the wrong career", without first offering other constructive advice first.

Wow. Just a stunning job. You seriously just said "talk to the hand" and werent being ironic. I feel like I'm in fantasyland.

As if leaving a bull**** career to go into medicine is in any way analogous to leaving medicine saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to go into some bull**** career. Do you have any imagination at all?

Let me guess.....you just "found a way" right?

Going into medicine is quite a different story than leaving it. That is something you can decide to do tomorrow, and leave the day after if it suits you. Leaving residency is a one-way ticket.

Talk to the hand? Ignore list? You're 40?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Correction...radiologists get sued more than any other physicians except OBGYN.

Do you have a reference for that? It has long been the case that the list is Ob-Gyn, Neurosurg, Ortho Spine/Hand, Gen Surg, EM, Rads and FM with some variation in order for the last 4.

 

[Knicks]

..........I like medicine itself, in fact I love it. What I hate about medicine is the rest of the bs associated with it. I hate having random, miserable, *******s giving me grades based on brief encounters with me. I hate having some algorithm decide where I end up for the next 3-4 years of my life. I hate the fact that I may or may not be able to even work in the location I want when I am done training. Medicine itself is great. The process is ****ing miserable.

 

[psychotrope]

For one, there is simply nothing I hate more than waking up in the dark & coming home in the dark - and I've only been doing it for ~9mo. It makes such an amazing difference to be able to wake up at 6-6:30 vs. 4-4:30 - the latter just feels inhumane.

what 3rd yr med student really wakes up at 4am most every day for 9 months? C'mon........

I woke up at 430ish(to be there at 515ish) for ONE MONTH of my 2 month surgery rotation.......

does every single specialty at your medical school round at 530 or something?

I worked as a school teacher for a year before medical school, and my average time waking up as a school teacher(we started early) probably averaged out for the whole year 30 or so minutes less than my medical school 3rd year.....

 

[sarcopenia]

Winged Scapula,

Yes, in Canada ... many / most of us are still fee-for-service, although there are other models (e.g. capitation based). Our billings are our billings. The amount of overhead varies somewhat widely, but the "rule of thumb" for family practice seems to be 30 %. A competitive split for urgent care / walk-in / locums would be 80:20. To give a conservative / generic estimate of family medicine:

Probably the "average" (office-based only) FP bills $300-350k per annum. This would equate to probably 40 - 45 hours per week of patient care time, plus maybe 10 hours per week of paperwork. If we go with 30 % overhead of $300,000, that would be $90,000 to run the office (this would be for an office in suburbia or a lower income neighbourhood ... probably with only 1 FTE support staff of a medical secretary ... with the FP doing his/her own IM injections, vitals, etc). In this example, the taxable income would be $210,000. If said physician resides in Ontario, ~ $78,000 would be paid in income tax, leaving a net pay of $132,000.

Note that there are several levels of "comprehensive care models" that would pay more money than the above, depending on patient age / complexity, and for meeting certain targets (e.g. attaining 80 % FOBT or 90 % flu vaccination for that year, etc).

Also note that many physicians incorporate, and are able to (at least temporarily) shield their income (at least the unrealized portions of it) from much of the taxes. So the above really is a conservative estimate.

Another thing is that except for the occasional case of a fraudulent provincial health card / expiry date not noticed, etc., the core billing are ALL collected (well, > 95 % of them). There are additionally certain "uninsured" services (e.g. sick notes, camp physicals, travel med consultations, etc) that can be billed out-of-pocket, but many patients are reluctant to pay. In practice, many of my colleagues also lack the stomach to MAKE them pay. I've seen family doctors politely ask for $40 for a travel consultation (non-billable to the gov't) from a 30-something successful lawyer, and have that patient / lawyer than whine about it, with the fee being waived. On the other hand, if a doctor shows up at a lawyer's office asking for a will to be written up or something, the fee is waived exactly 0 % of the time.

Another useful shorthand for comparing our systems ... the most commonly used "code" for billing (at least in my province) comes to ~ $35 for an "intermediate assessment." In theory, URI's etc might sometimes be a minor assessment, but in practice, I rarely see anything less than that being charged. So, if a doc can see 3 patients in an hour, gross billings are at least $35x3. Again, this is pretty conservative.

Hope that clarifies things...

 

[DrMarchMadness]

I saw a thread like this from 2005 but it's closed. I'm thinking about medical school but I'm hesitant because of all the negativity that I hear from practicing physicians. So, if you could do it over again, would you?

No, I don't think I would.

 

[Taurus]

Do you have a reference for that? It has long been the case that the list is Ob-Gyn, Neurosurg, Ortho Spine/Hand, Gen Surg, EM, Rads and FM with some variation in order for the last 4.

Most of what BlueManGroup spews out comes out of his ass. He can't back up most of what he says. If you challenge him on points [see some of my above posts], he attacks you with ad hominems which is a sign of desperation and weak arguments. He's got no credibility on this board which is what I think he desperately wants.

What I'm more interested in is, what is BlueManGroup's background? Is he pre-med, med, resident? I believe that he's either pre-med or med.

 

[Taurus]

Jackpot! BlueManGroup is a medical student. Based on a thread [see post #5] he created on 12/09 asking about a career in psychiatry, he's probably a 1st or 2nd year medical student too.

Please forgive my ignorance because I am a medical student. I am considering Psychiatry as a career but I heard the field is dangerous. More specifically one works with a volitile patient base that might hold grudges. Furhtermore forensics is interestinf but wouldnt a convicted criminal seek retribution for expert legal testmony against the criminal. I even heard some patients have killed their psychiatrists due to anger. Are these rumors true?

Dude, are you serious? You're a freaking beginner med student and you're trying to give people career advice in medicine? It's ironic that you try so hard to dissuade people from going into radiology when you're looking at psychiatry, one of the least competitive fields to match into? Do us all a favor and don't post anymore. You'll just look like a tool as people call you out.

 

[CyberKnife19]

People, people. Settle down now!

With all respect, I do agree with Cerberus. Medicine is great if you are successfully able to get into something like radonc, heck! who wouldn't like a nice cush job like that? Awesome match my friend. I too would feel blessed if I knew I was facing making about 6-800 K a year by working 8-4, and never having to get my hands dirty.

Just to clarify, the average salary in radiation oncology is ~400K/year and most RadOnc physicians generally work from about 8-5 (which is phenomenal...believe me, I am not complaining ).

 

[Cerberus]

Jackpot! BlueManGroup is a medical student. Based on a thread [see post #5] he created on 12/09 asking about a career in psychiatry, he's probably a 1st or 2nd year medical student too.

​

Dude, are you serious? You're a freaking beginner med student and you're trying to give people career advice in medicine? It's ironic that you try so hard to dissuade people from going into radiology when you're looking at psychiatry, one of the least competitive fields to match into? Do us all a favor and don't post anymore. You'll just look like a tool as people call you out.

Well that's just rich I'm getting lectured and told I'll be an awful doctor by some underclassman who hasn't even done rotations yet. Hilarious!

 

[FadingPromise]

Deleted.

 

[Lacrosse]

Cerberus, do yourself a favor and get out of medicine.

You are absolutely miserable and this frame of mind is something you cant turn off.

If you are not going to do it for yourself do it for your patients, premeds that you are in contact with, and medical students you are around.

Your misery brings everyone around you down. The patient you are working with as a physician is somebodys family member they do not deserve a miserable physician. Just imagine if your mother or father was treated by a physician with your mindset.

Furthermore, your attitude is killing the spirit of good people that truly want to become a physician. You are being selfish by complaining and bringing everyone down.

In reality medicine is not a goo field for you but everyone is different with different motivations.

We need intelligent, hard working, and positive physicians for our family members. I am sure you would want that for your family so the choice is easy. Get out.

You will be doing yourself and everyone around you a favor.

make sure to do well on step 1 before dolling out advice....


no I wouldn't do it again.

 

[Giemsa]

No, I wouldn't do it again, either.

 

[Slack3r]

Just love people that cant get into medical school justifying their lack of opportunity by saying medical school sucks.

As I mentioned earlier Dr. Kim is in a nonclinical field with his MD degree. Perhaps if your verbal reasoning skills were higher you wouldn have a higher MCAT score to get into medical school.

Here is another one. You can be a physician consultant in the pharmaceutical industry.

I'm not complaining about any lack of opportunities or saying med school sucks. I'm simply pointing out your flawed argument that going to medical school will do anything other than make you a physician.

And I got a 12 on verbal and an "S" in writing. Coming from the guy who

types

like he is

******ed, I'll take that verbal comment with a grain of salt. And none of those jobs are what med school actually prepares you for. Yea, some jobs Dr. Kim talks about are available to MD's, but lots of them require other experience. Not to mention these jobs being pretty scarce. You wouldn't tell someone to go to med school for the sole purpose of doing medical consulting, would you? (Well YOU might, but that's another issue entirely)

Medical school prepares you to be a doctor and to practice medicine, hence the Medical Doctor degree. Saying that "having an MD will open more doors than law or business" is idiotic. Bill Gates dropped out of high school and founded a multinational billion dollar corporation. Does dropping out of high school open doors to software corporations? Just because there are those that have been successful outside of medicine with an MD doesn't mean that medicine will open those doors for everyone.

 

[Slack3r]

Jackpot! BlueManGroup is a medical student. Based on a thread [see post #5] he created on 12/09 asking about a career in psychiatry, he's probably a 1st or 2nd year medical student too.
Dude, are you serious? You're a freaking beginner med student and you're trying to give people career advice in medicine? It's ironic that you try so hard to dissuade people from going into radiology when you're looking at psychiatry, one of the least competitive fields to match into? Do us all a favor and don't post anymore. You'll just look like a tool as people call you out.

Lollerskates. Just saw this! Did rad onc or derm not work out?

 

[MiamiHeat87]

As for discounting my argument.

Intelligent people will read my argument and will consider it. My logical arguments can be challenged. The reason some focus on the messenger is because they do not have the logical firepower to contest my claims thus focus on the person.

I stand by my arguments.

Haha, as much as I don't like you -your absolutely correct!

 

[MiamiHeat87]

Jackpot! BlueManGroup is a medical student. Based on a thread [see post #5] he created on 12/09 asking about a career in psychiatry, he's probably a 1st or 2nd year medical student too.

​

Dude, are you serious? You're a freaking beginner med student and you're trying to give people career advice in medicine? It's ironic that you try so hard to dissuade people from going into radiology when you're looking at psychiatry, one of the least competitive fields to match into? Do us all a favor and don't post anymore. You'll just look like a tool as people call you out.

Sounds like BMG will have to pull a Nick Naylor similar to the end of Thank You For Smoking. Great movie.

 

[scurred09]

I'm not anyone's life coach, dude.

But you're the doctor and the public look up to you.

 

[thefritz]

Jackpot! BlueManGroup is a medical student. Based on a thread [see post #5] he created on 12/09 asking about a career in psychiatry, he's probably a 1st or 2nd year medical student too.
Dude, are you serious? You're a freaking beginner med student and you're trying to give people career advice in medicine? It's ironic that you try so hard to dissuade people from going into radiology when you're looking at psychiatry, one of the least competitive fields to match into? Do us all a favor and don't post anymore. You'll just look like a tool as people call you out.

He actually claims to be a radiology resident in this acerbic post:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9234064#post9234064

You are so clueless and what do you know? You are a freakin medical student and I am a current radiology resident.

My guess is that he is either a rad tech trying to jump from community college to med skool or else a high school freshman. It's clear though that he is afraid of any competition in rads!

 

[notinkansas]

It is a very difficult decision, because you don't get to find out what it's really like until well into residency. If you wind up liking it, great. If not, you tend to get trapped by the need to make the income to pay off your debt.

This is what happened to me. I wound up feeling like being a doctor sucks the life out of me. Everyone demands something from me (patients, patient families, nurses, insurance companies, the government). Nobody cares if even my basic physiology needs are met (eat, sleep, pee...etc)

I thought I'd be helping people. Instead, it seems like people don't want help. They want their demands met. That's a huge difference. The growing entitlement mentality of the population takes away any feeling that I've helped people in the majority of cases. Then I go to the store and see headlines on magazines "Ten tests your doctor won't tell you about" I go in patients rooms and they are taking copious notes, just hoping that they can find something to file a lawsuit about. The post on the first page from SEMO sums up quite nicely a lot of what I'm feeling.

So I'm faced with an interesting dilemma. In order to make the money I need to pay my $200K student loan debt, the only skill set I have is being a doctor. I've seen posts saying that you can easily do non clinical jobs. It's not as easy as it sounds. I don't have any management skills (for business) nor do I have any research skills (for big pharma). So I'm stuck. I don't live big. I rent a small apartment. I drive a Corolla. I pack my lunch a lot. I would live in a tent if I could be free from the debt, and therefore free from this job.

For those of us that are unhappy, the feeling of being trapped in a job in order to make the money to service debt exacerbates the unhappiness.

If you take away just one point from this thread: no matter what field you choose - MINIMIZE YOUR DEBT!! The more debt you take on, the more freedom you give up. In a sense, taking on debt is like self-imposed slavery.

 

[notinkansas]

Yes, I am commiserating. That is orders of magnitude more helpful than "find a way" or "reach for the stars" or whatever nonsense you are suggesting.

You know its actually really, incredibly difficult to just up and quit when you are saddled with mindboggling debt, and have a highly specific skill set right? Congrats on being happy with your chosen profession. I am too, and I consider myself amazingly lucky to be so. I am DROOLING with anticipation to start at my program, because I feel like I would love to be a surgeon, and it will be extremely rewarding, and even though I didnt match at my top program, I was able to match at a really great place with fantastic residents that provides great training.

But I also have an imagination, and a little compassion, so I'm able to empathize with someone who isnt.

This was me several years ago. I never imagined that I would wind up hating being a doctor as much as I do. You really don't have a realistic view of what's its truly like until after you've been out of medical school for a while. I'd read a thread like this and have a hard time understanding how it was possible to not love the field. Reality can change you.

That said, I hope for you it turns out to be all you think it will be, and that you are happy and love it.