If you had the opportunity, would you do it?

[IntheClouds4ever]

Simple question. Personally, I want to do it after a vacation month in March and knowing I have another 3 months of sitting around doing nothing.. just me though. I can’t sit still in a normal non pandemic situation, much less a stay-at-home quasi quarantine situation.

Osteopathic medical students may be graduating early to fight COVID-19 - The DO

Accrediting body approves steps for colleges of osteopathic medicine to allow fourth-year students to enter the health care workforce early.

thedo.osteopathic.org

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[Goro]

My school is trying to work out the details. Naturally, lawyers are involved, and you know that that will do to the process.

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

My school is trying to work out the details. Naturally, lawyers are involved, and you know that that will do to the process.

With cancelled clinical rotations it makes sense. May not be a perfect solution but the pandemic won’t disappear by July, so I would rather get started before the 3 months of knowledge atrophy sets in..

 

[deleted480308]

I don't think medical students help. You'll burn through ppe and not remove the need for anyone to see them behind you anyway. I feel the same way for starting interns, you just shouldn't be in the covid units

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

I don't think medical students help. You'll burn through ppe and not remove the need for anyone to see them behind you anyway. I feel the same way for starting interns, you just shouldn't be in the covid units

this doesn’t say Covid units.. you just start residency early.. helping with Covid pandemic also entails taking care of the normal flow of patients that interns see which frees up more experienced physicians to deal with critical patients.. pretty simple since grads will be starting in two to three months anyway..

 

[deleted407021]

I’d certainly start residency a month early.

 

[SurgeDO]

Take my advice: do not do this.

This pandemic is ****ing hell. Administrators do not give a **** about residents and they are treating us as expendable drones while they sip their mimosas from their ocean side summer homes. If PPE is available, residents are the last ones to receive it—I cannot imagine where your place will be on the totem pole as some type of pseudo-intern. I cannot begin to describe the horror stories that are happening at my hospital right now. It is honestly criminal. My experience is not unique.

Enjoy this time off while you have it. I’m sure there will be plenty of pandemic left to fight when you start in July. Chill at home. Self isolate. Play video games and drink alcohol while you can. The time between graduation and starting residency was one of the best times of my life.

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

From the CEO of Midwestern University:

• In addition, medical students are being advised by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) of the following concerns:
  • Allowing a graduate to work at a hospital other than their residency match is considered a match violation and may nullify their match.
  • There is a severe shortage of PPE and additional individuals in the hospital cannot be properly outfitted.
  • Hospitals have notified us that they are not able to accept early residents and interns; they are focusing on patient care and not ready for orientation of new physicians.

 

[deleted978973]

Simple question. Personally, I want to do it after a vacation month in March and knowing I have another 3 months of sitting around doing nothing.. just me though. I can’t sit still in a normal non pandemic situation, much less a stay-at-home quasi quarantine situation.

Osteopathic medical students may be graduating early to fight COVID-19 - The DO

Accrediting body approves steps for colleges of osteopathic medicine to allow fourth-year students to enter the health care workforce early.

thedo.osteopathic.org

On the one hand, I want to be out from under my school's thumb as quickly as possible. On the other hand, the situation is totally out of control right now and you'd be risking even more severe debt early on with an ICU visit. Given the current status of things, I think I would tolerate my school's BS a bit longer.

 

[Goro]

I don't think medical students help. You'll burn through ppe and not remove the need for anyone to see them behind you anyway. I feel the same way for starting interns, you just shouldn't be in the covid units

They may be able to free up people who can then help more sicker patients.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

From the CEO of Midwestern University:

• In addition, medical students are being advised by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) of the following concerns:
  • Allowing a graduate to work at a hospital other than their residency match is considered a match violation and may nullify their match.
  • There is a severe shortage of PPE and additional individuals in the hospital cannot be properly outfitted.
  • Hospitals have notified us that they are not able to accept early residents and interns; they are focusing on patient care and not ready for orientation of new physicians.

Where did the CEO find that statement by the ACGME?

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

Where did the CEO find that statement by the ACGME?

My guess is direct contact with the ACGME.

 

[Sardonix]

Unless it's an epicenter like NY, schools doing this right now seem to be motivated by the possible good PR it would give, not the actual practicality of it and its implication.

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

Unless it's an epicenter like NY, schools doing this right now seem to be motivated by the possible good PR it would give, not the actual practicality of it and its implication.

If it gets me out of online modules and research then I’m all for it. However, it will definitely be dependent upon residency having adequate ability to legally make it all happen which will different for every residency.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Unless it's an epicenter like NY, schools doing this right now seem to be motivated by the possible good PR it would give, not the actual practicality of it and its implication.

I think that's why the ACGME has kinda pulled on the reigns a little bit. As mentioned above and the statement they put on their website.

 

[DennisReynolds]

As long as they pay me, I'll do whatever they want me to.

 

[NVO]

Thats a no for me

 

[DOswag]

Man it's been so long since I've been on the med student forums. I used to peruse these things back before I started school (so long ago). I know it sounds all well and good, but med students graduating a few months early will not improve the flow of patients. Someone will have to be checking over everything you do which will in turn slow down those above you and you'll have no idea what you're doing (that's basically how intern year will be for the first few months at least). On busy services, med students and interns can and will be a burden for upper level residents/attendings (even good ones, as everyone requires oversight in that environment and you're all learning so much) that's just how it is. I've never been in an academic setting during a crisis like what we're seeing now though. Enjoy these last few months before intern year. You'll be thrown into the fire when July rolls around.

 

[Dr. Death]

Hard no. Is the assumption that by starting residency a month or two early that you would graduate residency a month or two early? Why would I subject myself to abhorrent working conditions for any longer than I'm obligated to?

 

[ciestar]

Im still good spending a few hours a day doing online modules then spending the rest sleeping and watching tv.

My introverted self isnt minding this much. I wont have time off like this until i likely retire. I also dont hold much stake in my ability to actually be helpful.

 

[Epilepsy365]

As long as they pay me, I'll do whatever they want me to.

You might want to retract that statement.

 

[NVO]

Hard no. Is the assumption that by starting residency a month or two early that you would graduate residency a month or two early? Why would I subject myself to abhorrent working conditions for any longer than I'm obligated to?

No the assumption is that you'll do a 15 month long intern year

 

[Dr. Death]

No the assumption is that you'll do a 15 month long intern year

LOL sounds like a dream come true

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

LOL sounds like a dream come true

Wow... are you saying you DON'T want to take 3 more months of intern call? Are you even gonna be a good doctor????





















/s

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They may be able to free up people who can then help more sicker patients.

An intern at the start of the year... hell up until month 6 is really a liability that needs some to total oversight. They cannot free up people to help see sicker patients because they themselves are just learning how to do things and cannot do enough themselves to help.

All they can add to the case is writing a note real slow.

 

[Sardonix]

An intern at the start of the year... hell up until month 6 is really a liability that needs some to total oversight. They cannot free up people to help see sicker patients because they themselves are just learning how to do things and cannot do enough themselves to help.

All they can add to the case is writing a note real slow.

I read somewhere on here or reddit something that an attending said. It really spoke to me:

"When I was a learner, I doubled my attending's work load. And when he was learner, he doubled his attending's work load. And so on. It's okay."

Made me really appreciate physicians that teach. And it also highlighted to me how much a learner is going to drag down the whole system in the middle of a pandemic. No thanks.

 

[Goro]

An intern at the start of the year... hell up until month 6 is really a liability that needs some to total oversight. They cannot free up people to help see sicker patients because they themselves are just learning how to do things and cannot do enough themselves to help.

All they can add to the case is writing a note real slow.

In a wartime situation, you give people a rifle, get them to know how to take care of it, which end to point at the enemy and then throw them into battle.

This appears to be no different.

 

[Epilepsy365]

In a wartime situation, you give people a rifle, get them to know how to take care of it, which end to point at the enemy and then throw them into battle.

This appears to be no different.

Sarge, where are our helmets (aka PPE) and our rifles (aka testing kits and ventilator)? The men are ready. I last saw LT at the armory room, taking a nap.

 

[DOswag]

House of God, Law XI...

Also referenced in scrubs I believe by JD...

 

[Goro]

Sarge, where are our helmets (aka PPE) and our rifles (aka testing kits and ventilator)? The men are ready. I last saw LT at the armory room, taking a nap.

You don't get those. The pointy end of the bayonet also goes toward the enemy.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You don't get those. The pointy end of the bayonet also goes toward the enemy.

It takes little to no time to tell a soldier which direction to aim ( Not to say hit, just literally to stand at shoot at). The same cannot be sad of an intern. I say this fully as a current intern about to finish up his first year in 3 months.

 

[Goro]

It takes little to no time to tell a soldier which direction to aim ( Not to say hit, just literally to stand at shoot at). The same cannot be sad of an intern. I say this fully as a current intern about to finish up his first year in 3 months.

Takes longer to get them to NOT pull the pin out of the grenade using their teeth, lest they simply end up with a handful of teeth.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Damn! What happened to @Epilepsy365?

 

[DennisReynolds]

Damn! What happened to @Epilepsy365?

He was posting obligatory remarks about folks and then would go back and change his statements or moderators would have to edit them.

I admit that I'm a d-bag at times and can be considered a "nuisance" on here.... but homeboy took it to a whole nother level.

Hope he/she is ok.

 

[jurassicpark]

In a wartime situation, you give people a rifle, get them to know how to take care of it, which end to point at the enemy and then throw them into battle.

This appears to be no different.

Except that the soldiers' rifles in this scenario are highly complex requiring graduate level education to understand how they work and equally long training to get it to work right. Reminds me of those old science fiction novels by the likes of Robert A. Heinlein, not just buckaroo heroes but uber-smart good looking nerds on adventures.

“Most people think that all it takes is two hands and two feet and a stupid mind. Maybe so, for cannon fodder. Possibly that was all that Julius Caesar required. But a private soldier today is a specialist so highly skilled that he would rate ‘master’ in any other trade; we can’t afford stupid ones. " - Starship Troopers. Same analogy to today's interns/residents. They're not cannon fodder.

I've told my med students that their value is not being able to bag a patient with no PPE or draw blood (I don't think many of them know how anyways). Their value is in their education and training, all of which is moot if they get infected, die, pass it on to more people then they can "save." Will there come a point that we don't care who's at the other end of those vent dials? Possibly, but I'd rather save our future resource of doctors for now, for the next pandemic when they're trained and ready to treat me.

 

[Goro]

Except that the soldiers' rifles in this scenario are highly complex requiring graduate level education to understand how they work and equally long training to get it to work right. Reminds me of those old science fiction novels by the likes of Robert A. Heinlein, not just buckaroo heroes but uber-smart good looking nerds on adventures.

“Most people think that all it takes is two hands and two feet and a stupid mind. Maybe so, for cannon fodder. Possibly that was all that Julius Caesar required. But a private soldier today is a specialist so highly skilled that he would rate ‘master’ in any other trade; we can’t afford stupid ones. " - Starship Troopers. Same analogy to today's interns/residents. They're not cannon fodder.

I've told my med students that their value is not being able to bag a patient with no PPE or draw blood (I don't think many of them know how anyways). Their value is in their education and training, all of which is moot if they get infected, die, pass it on to more people then they can "save." Will there come a point that we don't care who's at the other end of those vent dials? Possibly, but I'd rather save our future resource of doctors for now, for the next pandemic when they're trained and ready to treat me.

My state (ie, we and the local MD school) is not allowing early graduation, unlike NYU, Has anyone heard what other schools are doing?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

My state (ie, we and the local MD school) is not allowing early graduation, unlike NYU, Has anyone heard what other schools are doing?

Why? 4th year is pretty much over at most schools.

 

[Goro]

Why? 4th year is pretty much over at most schools.

NYU floated the idea a tad earlier this year. It's also still a matter of student safety, and not enough PPE.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

NYU floated the idea a tad earlier this year. It's also still a matter of student safety, and not enough PPE.

graduation does not mean one would have to go work in a hospital

 

[Goro]

graduation does not mean one would have to go work in a hospital

The idea behind early graduation was to get the recruits into the trenches faster, even in a noncombat position, no?

 

[jurassicpark]

The idea behind early graduation was to get the recruits into the trenches faster, even in a noncombat position, no?

I'm all for putting med students to work in other fashions than direct patient care. While they're at home studying, running through netflix, doing copious internet-based anatomy studying through non-accredited websites for $29.99 a month, they should be making masks, blood and food drives, etc?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

The idea behind early graduation was to get the recruits into the trenches faster, even in a noncombat position, no?

That's the idea but there is no requirement.

 

[jurassicpark]

That's the idea but there is no requirement.

I think Goro meant outside of direct acute-patient care, but preferably outside of patient care entirely. But I don't think it's anything that they need to be graduated early from. Because a lot of school's rotations are shut down, there's plenty of volunteer activities, data collection, phone lines and drives that can and should be organized utilizing the tens of thousands of over-achieving youths of America.

 

[samac]

I'm all for putting med students to work in other fashions than direct patient care. While they're at home studying, running through netflix, doing copious internet-based anatomy studying through non-accredited websites for $29.99 a month, they should be making masks, blood and food drives, etc?

I'll get groceries for the old folks in town but I can't sew. They'd be better off paying me to answer COVID hotlines or something of the sort, but I'm not going to volunteer to do a job they're paying other people for just because I'm supposed to be an altruistic medical student. That seems to be what they expect.

He was posting obligatory remarks about folks and then would go back and change his statements or moderators would have to edit them.

I admit that I'm a d-bag at times and can be considered a "nuisance" on here.... but homeboy took it to a whole nother level.

Hope he/she is ok.

I made a comment the other day that I have had more posts edited in the past couple of weeks than I have in my entire time on the site. I now realize they pretty much all involved that individual. Wish him/her/them luck.