If you only take the AOBIM exam, can you sit for the ABIM sub-specialty exams for fellowship?

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Doctor_Strange

Doctor_Strange

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Curious about the above. I am planning on taking both ABIM and AOBIM. If I pass the latter and fail the former, and go into, say, PCCM, can I sit for the PCCM exam?
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Nope, you gotta pass the ABIM to take their subspecialty exams.
 
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You can take the osteopathic boards for Pulm and CC.
Unless you want to be a program director that's all you need.
 
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Thank you.

I finally got ahold of someone from AOA, they said there is no barrier!
 
kacelius said:
so ABIM IM-->AOBM critical care/Pulmonology is allowed?
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Oh whoops yes this is allowed. I've known several that have done this. I thought the question was asking "if you take AOBIM can you take ABIM pulm/crit" and the answer is "no" to that.
 
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Betabet said:
Oh whoops yes this is allowed. I've known several that have done this. I thought the question was asking "if you take AOBIM can you take ABIM pulm/crit" and the answer is "no" to that.
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Sorry, I did not word it properly initially. I am gonna take both boards in the next few months. I feel decently okay about passing the ABIM, but I remain very risk-averse and will take the AOBIM a few weeks later.

Hopefully, this will not be an issue with credentialing in the future, etc. I cannot imagine it would.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
Sorry, I did not word it properly initially. I am gonna take both boards in the next few months. I feel decently okay about passing the ABIM, but I remain very risk-averse and will take the AOBIM a few weeks later.

Hopefully, this will not be an issue with credentialing in the future, etc. I cannot imagine it would.
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Why do this? Is it your last year of eligibility to take the boards or something?

Take ABIM and if you fail the ABIM boards the first time, then retake it (you have 7 years). It’s not really a big deal. I took the ABIM IM boards right out of residency, but I didn’t take the rheumatology boards for 5 years after graduating fellowship and it was fine. Never really had an issue with finding jobs etc as I was still BE.
 
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I just graduated from residency. But for me, I rather just take both exams and if I pass both great, if it's one or the other I don't care either. I don't want to go through it again next year lol
 
You can't do AOBIM to ABIM, but you can do the opposite
 
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I am okay with AOBIM. If I wanted to work for my former medical school, btw, does any of this matter as well?
 
Doctor_Strange said:
I am okay with AOBIM. If I wanted to work for my former medical school, btw, does any of this matter as well?
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I think the only thing that is up in the air is if you'll be able to be PD for ACGME since ABIM is trying to say AOBIM certified people won't be able to certify their residents to take ABIM. Other than that, it's pretty much the exact same thing
 
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I read your comments and don't see why on earth you would want to take two exams when you only have to take one. And why you wuold choose to take another DO exam which I assume is hot garbage, when you can just take ABIM.
 
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Espressso said:
I read your comments and don't see why on earth you would want to take two exams when you only have to take one. And why you wuold choose to take another DO exam which I assume is hot garbage, when you can just take ABIM.
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Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).
 
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dozitgetchahi said:
Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).
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Yeah that's exactly how I feel. It blows my mind any DO would want to even think about the ABOIM exam after the COMLEX series. Unless you were one of those super disciples of OMM and did an OMM residency like a handful of DO's I know. But I know OP isn't that.

To be completely honest, I don't even think I knew there was still an ABOIM exam. I thought that was eliminated years ago lmao.

OP- I hear what your thought process is, but personally I feel like as a DO I want to be boarded in ABIM not anything else for IM. I think the strategy is to focus on ABIM, take it, pass, move on. Worst case scenario then you deal with that complication as it comes. But that's just me. My ABIM is in a week and I'm ultra terrified lol, but I cannot just even picture myself sitting for a second one a week later, like I did for Step 1, and step 2.

Best of luck though dude.
 
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dozitgetchahi said:
Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).
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Honestly I think whether we want to hate on it or not. It offers folks a cheaper alternative to the ABIM and offers folks who passed residency an option to get board certified. That's worth something.

Espressso said:
Yeah that's exactly how I feel. It blows my mind any DO would want to even think about the ABOIM exam after the COMLEX series. Unless you were one of those super disciples of OMM and did an OMM residency like a handful of DO's I know. But I know OP isn't that.

To be completely honest, I don't even think I knew there was still an ABOIM exam. I thought that was eliminated years ago lmao.

OP- I hear what your thought process is, but personally I feel like as a DO I want to be boarded in ABIM not anything else for IM. I think the strategy is to focus on ABIM, take it, pass, move on. Worst case scenario then you deal with that complication as it comes. But that's just me. My ABIM is in a week and I'm ultra terrified lol, but I cannot just even picture myself sitting for a second one a week later, like I did for Step 1, and step 2.

Best of luck though dude.
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I didn't take ABOIM because I walked into the ABIM knowing I'd pass it.

Now that I look at my ABIM Endo board coming up with a historically low 75% pass rate. I won't pretend that I am happy that the ABOIM exists if I need it.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
Honestly I think whether we want to hate on it or not. It offers folks a cheaper alternative to the ABIM and offers folks who passed residency an option to get board certified. That's worth something.



I didn't take ABOIM because I walked into the ABIM knowing I'd pass it.

Now that I look at my ABIM Endo board coming up with a historically low 75% pass rate. I won't pretend that I am happy that the ABOIM exists if I need it.
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I think these stupidly low pass rates for ABIM speak for themselves and why I at least have an alternative with ABOIM.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
I think these stupidly low pass rates for ABIM speak for themselves and why I at least have an alternative with ABOIM.
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The ABIM for IM in my opinion is not a hard exam to pass. The amount of materials available to appropriately study for it make it fairly preparable. And predictable.

Fellowship ABIM exams are harder because there are maybe 600-1000 questions in total that can be obtained through buying 5-8 different resources. And there are no MKSAP tier texts. In combination with this fellowship is objectively harder than residency. 12-16 months of consults especially if at busy hospitals are not easy. Especially if throw into this are heavy research requirements and heavy call requirements.

But I do think that fundamentally the ABIM is a flawed exam built upon a ridiculous premise that we should be vigilant for highly rare diseases. While at the same time you have "good IM graduates" unable to understand basic endocrinological diseases like primary hyperparathyroidism or primary hypothyroidism.
 
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Update: took ABIM last week. That was f***ing hard. I honestly, genuinely think I will either borderline pass or fail big time. It sucks. I think I burned myself after 6 months of studying. Last week or so I dialed down my studying. I'm honestly not sure what else I could have done differently. My ITEs have all been s**t even after walking out thinking I did well. This time, I walked out thinking I did not so great so time will tell. I just hate that it seems like 80% of the exam comes down to your test-taking strategy and your clinical gestalt.

I have my ABOIM on 9/20 and took the weekend off. I think I will gently start studying with 10-20 questions moving forward. I will say, I am glad I signed up for ABOIM. The test-taking population will be much smaller and I think there will be more variance offering a more generous curve (though there is no published data).
 
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I probably might have missed it. But, How does one sit for both? Does PD have to green light ABOIM that this candidate can sit for the test?.
 
kacelius said:
I probably might have missed it. But, How does one sit for both? Does PD have to green light ABOIM that this candidate can sit for the test?.
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Yes, I had to send a form of some kind to my PD. Apparently, an MD can sit for ABOIM though I do not know the technicalities.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
Yes, I had to send a form of some kind to my PD. Apparently, an MD can sit for ABOIM though I do not know the technicalities.
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Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.
 
kacelius said:
Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.
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Cost to take 2 exams. ABOIM is longer. MOC for ABOIM, while supposedly cheaper, is more annoying with CME. For me, these are minor points. If I pass it I am done taking IM boards, I will suffer whatever is the financial headaches down the road.
 
kacelius said:
Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.
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Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.
 
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Betabet said:
Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.
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Yeah, those contracts need to be amended for more inclusive language.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
Update: took ABIM last week. That was f***ing hard. I honestly, genuinely think I will either borderline pass or fail big time. It sucks. I think I burned myself after 6 months of studying. Last week or so I dialed down my studying. I'm honestly not sure what else I could have done differently. My ITEs have all been s**t even after walking out thinking I did well. This time, I walked out thinking I did not so great so time will tell. I just hate that it seems like 80% of the exam comes down to your test-taking strategy and your clinical gestalt.

I have my ABOIM on 9/20 and took the weekend off. I think I will gently start studying with 10-20 questions moving forward. I will say, I am glad I signed up for ABOIM. The test-taking population will be much smaller and I think there will be more variance offering a more generous curve (though there is no published data).
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Everyone feels like this when they take an ABIM test. The vast majority pass.
 
Betabet said:
Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.
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I haven't encountered a contract explicitly saying they won't take AOBIM certification. They might say they require ABIM, and once you show them AOBIM is equivalent, that's the end of the conversation
 
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
I haven't encountered a contract explicitly saying they won't take AOBIM certification. They might say they require ABIM, and once you show them AOBIM is equivalent, that's the end of the conversation
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This is pretty much true. I have been involved in both offering jobs and reviewing credentials. In both cases, the contracts said "ABIM BC/BE" and in each case, AOBIM was accepted as equivalent and nobody said anything.
 
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Doctor_Strange said:
Yeah, those contracts need to be amended for more inclusive language.
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The ABOIM legally has the same standing with all insurance companies and is legally the equivalent of the ABIM. No hospital system is going to play this game because they could lose. The only area we have ceded is that an ABOIM certified individual cannot certify you to take the ABIM exam as a PD.

Further most hospital systems genuinely do not care. They make a big deal about it because they want to make sure you will be able to bill and make money without interruption.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty said:
The ABOIM legally has the same standing with all insurance companies and is legally the equivalent of the ABIM. No hospital system is going to play this game because they could lose. The only area we have ceded is that an ABOIM certified individual cannot certify you to take the ABIM exam as a PD.

Further most hospital systems genuinely do not care. They make a big deal about it because they want to make sure you will be able to bill and make money without interruption.
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Has it been officially conceded? I thought they were legally challenging that
 
Kind of funny how abim is allowing FMGs without residency to sit for the exam after a 1 year nonsense fellowship but make it harder on DOs.
 
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
I would say it should be at the top. Any erosion of AOBIM is just a way of saying that the board is not equivalent
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That's fair actually. I guess what I mean is, the # of people wanting to become PDs who are DOs that have taken only ABOIM is probably enough to count on one hand lol
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
That's true as well
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I think the amount of former DO IM programs with DO leads who now needs theoretically either an ABIM lead or to force old ass folks to take the exam.

At least they allowed them to take it without having to grace them with a year of GME... which is disgusting and should be illegal.
 
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