If you only take the AOBIM exam, can you sit for the ABIM sub-specialty exams for fellowship?

[Doctor_Strange]

Curious about the above. I am planning on taking both ABIM and AOBIM. If I pass the latter and fail the former, and go into, say, PCCM, can I sit for the PCCM exam?

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[Betabet]

Nope, you gotta pass the ABIM to take their subspecialty exams.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You can take the osteopathic boards for Pulm and CC.
Unless you want to be a program director that's all you need.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Thank you.

I finally got ahold of someone from AOA, they said there is no barrier!

 

[kacelius]

Thank you.

I finally got ahold of someone from AOA, they said there is no barrier!

so ABIM IM-->AOBM critical care/Pulmonology is allowed?

 

[Betabet]

so ABIM IM-->AOBM critical care/Pulmonology is allowed?

Oh whoops yes this is allowed. I've known several that have done this. I thought the question was asking "if you take AOBIM can you take ABIM pulm/crit" and the answer is "no" to that.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Oh whoops yes this is allowed. I've known several that have done this. I thought the question was asking "if you take AOBIM can you take ABIM pulm/crit" and the answer is "no" to that.

Sorry, I did not word it properly initially. I am gonna take both boards in the next few months. I feel decently okay about passing the ABIM, but I remain very risk-averse and will take the AOBIM a few weeks later.

Hopefully, this will not be an issue with credentialing in the future, etc. I cannot imagine it would.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Sorry, I did not word it properly initially. I am gonna take both boards in the next few months. I feel decently okay about passing the ABIM, but I remain very risk-averse and will take the AOBIM a few weeks later.

Hopefully, this will not be an issue with credentialing in the future, etc. I cannot imagine it would.

Why do this? Is it your last year of eligibility to take the boards or something?

Take ABIM and if you fail the ABIM boards the first time, then retake it (you have 7 years). It’s not really a big deal. I took the ABIM IM boards right out of residency, but I didn’t take the rheumatology boards for 5 years after graduating fellowship and it was fine. Never really had an issue with finding jobs etc as I was still BE.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I just graduated from residency. But for me, I rather just take both exams and if I pass both great, if it's one or the other I don't care either. I don't want to go through it again next year lol

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You can't do AOBIM to ABIM, but you can do the opposite

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I am okay with AOBIM. If I wanted to work for my former medical school, btw, does any of this matter as well?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I am okay with AOBIM. If I wanted to work for my former medical school, btw, does any of this matter as well?

I think the only thing that is up in the air is if you'll be able to be PD for ACGME since ABIM is trying to say AOBIM certified people won't be able to certify their residents to take ABIM. Other than that, it's pretty much the exact same thing

 

[Gastrapathy]

You'll pass. Save your money.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

You'll pass. Save your money.

Exactly.

 

[Espressso]

I read your comments and don't see why on earth you would want to take two exams when you only have to take one. And why you wuold choose to take another DO exam which I assume is hot garbage, when you can just take ABIM.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I read your comments and don't see why on earth you would want to take two exams when you only have to take one. And why you wuold choose to take another DO exam which I assume is hot garbage, when you can just take ABIM.

Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).

 

[Espressso]

Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).

Yeah that's exactly how I feel. It blows my mind any DO would want to even think about the ABOIM exam after the COMLEX series. Unless you were one of those super disciples of OMM and did an OMM residency like a handful of DO's I know. But I know OP isn't that.

To be completely honest, I don't even think I knew there was still an ABOIM exam. I thought that was eliminated years ago lmao.

OP- I hear what your thought process is, but personally I feel like as a DO I want to be boarded in ABIM not anything else for IM. I think the strategy is to focus on ABIM, take it, pass, move on. Worst case scenario then you deal with that complication as it comes. But that's just me. My ABIM is in a week and I'm ultra terrified lol, but I cannot just even picture myself sitting for a second one a week later, like I did for Step 1, and step 2.

Best of luck though dude.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah agreed. As a DO who endured the COMLEX exams, I can’t even imagine how poorly written an ABOIM exam would be (hell, the ABIM exams are bad enough as it is).

Honestly I think whether we want to hate on it or not. It offers folks a cheaper alternative to the ABIM and offers folks who passed residency an option to get board certified. That's worth something.

Yeah that's exactly how I feel. It blows my mind any DO would want to even think about the ABOIM exam after the COMLEX series. Unless you were one of those super disciples of OMM and did an OMM residency like a handful of DO's I know. But I know OP isn't that.

To be completely honest, I don't even think I knew there was still an ABOIM exam. I thought that was eliminated years ago lmao.

OP- I hear what your thought process is, but personally I feel like as a DO I want to be boarded in ABIM not anything else for IM. I think the strategy is to focus on ABIM, take it, pass, move on. Worst case scenario then you deal with that complication as it comes. But that's just me. My ABIM is in a week and I'm ultra terrified lol, but I cannot just even picture myself sitting for a second one a week later, like I did for Step 1, and step 2.

Best of luck though dude.

I didn't take ABOIM because I walked into the ABIM knowing I'd pass it.

Now that I look at my ABIM Endo board coming up with a historically low 75% pass rate. I won't pretend that I am happy that the ABOIM exists if I need it.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Honestly I think whether we want to hate on it or not. It offers folks a cheaper alternative to the ABIM and offers folks who passed residency an option to get board certified. That's worth something.



I didn't take ABOIM because I walked into the ABIM knowing I'd pass it.

Now that I look at my ABIM Endo board coming up with a historically low 75% pass rate. I won't pretend that I am happy that the ABOIM exists if I need it.

I think these stupidly low pass rates for ABIM speak for themselves and why I at least have an alternative with ABOIM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think these stupidly low pass rates for ABIM speak for themselves and why I at least have an alternative with ABOIM.

The ABIM for IM in my opinion is not a hard exam to pass. The amount of materials available to appropriately study for it make it fairly preparable. And predictable.

Fellowship ABIM exams are harder because there are maybe 600-1000 questions in total that can be obtained through buying 5-8 different resources. And there are no MKSAP tier texts. In combination with this fellowship is objectively harder than residency. 12-16 months of consults especially if at busy hospitals are not easy. Especially if throw into this are heavy research requirements and heavy call requirements.

But I do think that fundamentally the ABIM is a flawed exam built upon a ridiculous premise that we should be vigilant for highly rare diseases. While at the same time you have "good IM graduates" unable to understand basic endocrinological diseases like primary hyperparathyroidism or primary hypothyroidism.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Update: took ABIM last week. That was f***ing hard. I honestly, genuinely think I will either borderline pass or fail big time. It sucks. I think I burned myself after 6 months of studying. Last week or so I dialed down my studying. I'm honestly not sure what else I could have done differently. My ITEs have all been s**t even after walking out thinking I did well. This time, I walked out thinking I did not so great so time will tell. I just hate that it seems like 80% of the exam comes down to your test-taking strategy and your clinical gestalt.

I have my ABOIM on 9/20 and took the weekend off. I think I will gently start studying with 10-20 questions moving forward. I will say, I am glad I signed up for ABOIM. The test-taking population will be much smaller and I think there will be more variance offering a more generous curve (though there is no published data).

 

[kacelius]

I probably might have missed it. But, How does one sit for both? Does PD have to green light ABOIM that this candidate can sit for the test?.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I probably might have missed it. But, How does one sit for both? Does PD have to green light ABOIM that this candidate can sit for the test?.

Yes, I had to send a form of some kind to my PD. Apparently, an MD can sit for ABOIM though I do not know the technicalities.

 

[kacelius]

Yes, I had to send a form of some kind to my PD. Apparently, an MD can sit for ABOIM though I do not know the technicalities.

Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.

Cost to take 2 exams. ABOIM is longer. MOC for ABOIM, while supposedly cheaper, is more annoying with CME. For me, these are minor points. If I pass it I am done taking IM boards, I will suffer whatever is the financial headaches down the road.

 

[Betabet]

Thanks. If that process so easy to get, why should we all be sticking with ABIM ? What does ABIM gives us that ABOIM doesn't?. There must be some catch. Its not like this has been invented this today. People knew this for sometime and still were not taking the ABOIM for a reason. I am not sure what it is.

Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.

Yeah, those contracts need to be amended for more inclusive language.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Update: took ABIM last week. That was f***ing hard. I honestly, genuinely think I will either borderline pass or fail big time. It sucks. I think I burned myself after 6 months of studying. Last week or so I dialed down my studying. I'm honestly not sure what else I could have done differently. My ITEs have all been s**t even after walking out thinking I did well. This time, I walked out thinking I did not so great so time will tell. I just hate that it seems like 80% of the exam comes down to your test-taking strategy and your clinical gestalt.

I have my ABOIM on 9/20 and took the weekend off. I think I will gently start studying with 10-20 questions moving forward. I will say, I am glad I signed up for ABOIM. The test-taking population will be much smaller and I think there will be more variance offering a more generous curve (though there is no published data).

Everyone feels like this when they take an ABIM test. The vast majority pass.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Some attending contracts specify you need to be ABIM certified and do no accept AOBIM certification. I think this is due to tradition where “MD>DO.” Insurance panels, depending on where you’re located in the U.S., may not accept a physician unless they are board certified or board eligible. That being said, ABIM and AOBIM are both equivalent and have no impact on their obtaining this. A lot of older physicians I’ve met end up switching their board certification through NBPAS which is a lot cheaper, easier to maintain and is also accepted with all insurances.

In short, it depends on the career you want. If you want to be a PD or work in academia, ABIM is probably the safest route to go. If you just wanna be board certified and take care of patients, there’s no difference at all. AOBIM is actually cheaper than ABIM as well.

I haven't encountered a contract explicitly saying they won't take AOBIM certification. They might say they require ABIM, and once you show them AOBIM is equivalent, that's the end of the conversation

 

[gutonc]

I haven't encountered a contract explicitly saying they won't take AOBIM certification. They might say they require ABIM, and once you show them AOBIM is equivalent, that's the end of the conversation

This is pretty much true. I have been involved in both offering jobs and reviewing credentials. In both cases, the contracts said "ABIM BC/BE" and in each case, AOBIM was accepted as equivalent and nobody said anything.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, those contracts need to be amended for more inclusive language.

The ABOIM legally has the same standing with all insurance companies and is legally the equivalent of the ABIM. No hospital system is going to play this game because they could lose. The only area we have ceded is that an ABOIM certified individual cannot certify you to take the ABIM exam as a PD.

Further most hospital systems genuinely do not care. They make a big deal about it because they want to make sure you will be able to bill and make money without interruption.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The ABOIM legally has the same standing with all insurance companies and is legally the equivalent of the ABIM. No hospital system is going to play this game because they could lose. The only area we have ceded is that an ABOIM certified individual cannot certify you to take the ABIM exam as a PD.

Further most hospital systems genuinely do not care. They make a big deal about it because they want to make sure you will be able to bill and make money without interruption.

Has it been officially conceded? I thought they were legally challenging that

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Has it been officially conceded? I thought they were legally challenging that

Not sure.

 

[Betabet]

Has it been officially conceded? I thought they were legally challenging that

Looks like as of 2022 the AOA gave up. Announcement regarding ABIM program director policy

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Looks like as of 2022 the AOA gave up. Announcement regarding ABIM program director policy

As far things to fight for, I think for AOA this rightfully should be at the bottom of the list lol

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Kind of funny how abim is allowing FMGs without residency to sit for the exam after a 1 year nonsense fellowship but make it harder on DOs.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

As far things to fight for, I think for AOA this rightfully should be at the bottom of the list lol

I would say it should be at the top. Any erosion of AOBIM is just a way of saying that the board is not equivalent

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I would say it should be at the top. Any erosion of AOBIM is just a way of saying that the board is not equivalent

That's fair actually. I guess what I mean is, the # of people wanting to become PDs who are DOs that have taken only ABOIM is probably enough to count on one hand lol

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

That's fair actually. I guess what I mean is, the # of people wanting to become PDs who are DOs that have taken only ABOIM is probably enough to count on one hand lol

That's true as well

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's true as well

I think the amount of former DO IM programs with DO leads who now needs theoretically either an ABIM lead or to force old ass folks to take the exam.

At least they allowed them to take it without having to grace them with a year of GME... which is disgusting and should be illegal.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I thought I would update this.

Sadly, I did not pass. Embarrassingly scored a 319. I did UW x1.5 (1st pass was 52-53% mostly on untimed mode). I did parts of MKSAP too throughout residency but did not keep up with it. I tried really really hard to study but I also felt I burned myself out. I started UW almost 6 months in advance doing 10-15 questions a day. I think I just lost knowledge near the end. I have never failed an exam before and usually did average to slightly below average. Near the end of my studying I was doing like 20-25 questions but felt like I had reached a threshold. And on test day, I felt like a lot of it came down to test taking strategy. But with such a low score, I likely have large knowledge gaps.

What really discourages me is knowing those who studied half as much or barely at all passing. It makes me feel like an idiot. And my ITEs were all trash, so I am sure my PD thinks, “Well, this was expected.”

If anyone has tips please let me know. I did a ton of Anki in med school, but none for ABIM. Maybe I need to return to that kind of spaced repetition. Or read Board Basics from start to finish.

Hopefully I passed the ABOIM. I felt so much more comfortable taking that exam and even remarked to my wife afterwards that I was 99% sure I did enough to pass. I was pleasantly surprised at how well written the exam was for me.

[mention]AlbinoHawk DO [/mention] , hopefully you can clarify a question for me- for fellowship being AOA-certified should not cause any issues for the fellowship I match into, correct? I know one EP cardiologist who did his fellowship and I looked him up and has no ABIM cert. Just AOA. I have to believe AOA certification is equivalent for fellowship training. I don’t think I specifically asked that of the AOA rep I spoke to months ago..

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

[mention]AlbinoHawk DO [/mention] , hopefully you can clarify a question for me- for fellowship being AOA-certified should not cause any issues for the fellowship I match into, correct? I know one EP cardiologist who did his fellowship and I looked him up and has no ABIM cert. Just AOA. I have to believe AOA certification is equivalent for fellowship training. I don’t think I specifically asked that of the AOA rep I spoke to months ago..

Sorry you didn't pass. It sounds like you have good strategies in case you wish to retake the exam.

Fellowships do not ask about board certification. There are a number of people who take the exam during their fellowship or even after.

 

[kacelius]

I thought I would update this.

Sadly, I did not pass. Embarrassingly scored a 319. I did UW x1.5 (1st pass was 52-53% mostly on untimed mode). I did parts of MKSAP too throughout residency but did not keep up with it. I tried really really hard to study but I also felt I burned myself out. I started UW almost 6 months in advance doing 10-15 questions a day. I think I just lost knowledge near the end. I have never failed an exam before and usually did average to slightly below average. Near the end of my studying I was doing like 20-25 questions but felt like I had reached a threshold. And on test day, I felt like a lot of it came down to test taking strategy. But with such a low score, I likely have large knowledge gaps.

What really discourages me is knowing those who studied half as much or barely at all passing. It makes me feel like an idiot. And my ITEs were all trash, so I am sure my PD thinks, “Well, this was expected.”

If anyone has tips please let me know. I did a ton of Anki in med school, but none for ABIM. Maybe I need to return to that kind of spaced repetition. Or read Board Basics from start to finish.

Hopefully I passed the ABOIM. I felt so much more comfortable taking that exam and even remarked to my wife afterwards that I was 99% sure I did enough to pass. I was pleasantly surprised at how well written the exam was for me.

[mention]AlbinoHawk DO [/mention] , hopefully you can clarify a question for me- for fellowship being AOA-certified should not cause any issues for the fellowship I match into, correct? I know one EP cardiologist who did his fellowship and I looked him up and has no ABIM cert. Just AOA. I have to believe AOA certification is equivalent for fellowship training. I don’t think I specifically asked that of the AOA rep I spoke to months ago..

No need to be too hard on yourself. There is really no right recipe for success in ABIM exams. ABIM-IM is notoriously a tricky exam. Remember that organization makes money out of having high exam fees. They have a onus for having high bar for passing. Moreover, Some are good with exams and some are not.
But eventually, I hope you pass the AOA board exam.
Just for others who may read these forums in the future, please post your exam experience in regards to comparing both AOA and ABIM in regards to exam questions.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Sorry you didn't pass. It sounds like you have good strategies in case you wish to retake the exam.

Fellowships do not ask about board certification. There are a number of people who take the exam during their fellowship or even after.

I guess my thing is what is stopping a future fellowship that I match from telling me that they want me to re-take the ABIM if that's what they want for their fellows. If I am in that situation, I would like to be ready to politely decline since AOA has sub-specialty boards available for me to sit on.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I guess my thing is what is stopping a future fellowship that I match from telling me that they want me to re-take the ABIM if that's what they want for their fellows. If I am in that situation, I would like to be ready to politely decline since AOA has sub-specialty boards available for me to sit on.

Well, by the same token, what gives them the power to ask you to take the ABIM? Especially since it's a test that you will have to pay for from your pocket

Ultimately, that's a conversation you'll have to have with your PD if it comes up. Like you said, just politely decline and tell them you plan on taking the AOA subs-specialty board

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Honestly I'm curious what the pass rate ends up being.

ABIM pass rates have been declining.

How long can they simply say that IM graduate quality is declining before the ACGME and PDs basically say that they need an internal audit?

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Honestly I'm curious what the pass rate ends up being.

ABIM pass rates have been declining.

How long can they simply say that IM graduate quality is declining before the ACGME and PDs basically say that they need an internal audit?

ABIM is out of hand.