Ignore Afirmative Action

[mamie]

you said it.

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[DarkChild]

WOOOHOOO!!!! the first real flame fest of 2003.
A good AA bashfest replete with below the belt pot shots!!!
FLAME ON!!!


DarkChild WuZ HerE

 

[DW]

Originally posted by DarkChild
WOOOHOOO!!!! the first real flame fest of 2003.
A good AA bashfest replete with below the belt pot shots!!!
FLAME ON!!!


DarkChild WuZ HerE

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUUUMMMMMMBBBBBBBLLLLLLEEEEEE!!!!!!

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by SistaKaren
Edit: Garibaldo...you never even addressed my arguments in the last post...so to say that pro-AA people are getting desperate seems a bit of a stretch, considering you haven't even addressed all of our points....

SistaKaren, what points did I not address? Perhaps you didn't read my response carefully enough or perhaps you're unwilling to.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Garibaldo
SistaKaren, what points did I not address? Perhaps you didn't read my response carefully enough or perhaps you're unwilling to.

Now I felt that this has been a pretty civil debate between us, so it's really disappointing to see you try to attack my character. You never responded to my last post on the Bush thread. Go back and check and you'll see that. But let's remain civil, okay? I've been very willing to see other people's views, wouldn't you agree?

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Tuesday Weld
Is this true?!

Then Path - by all means, feel free to mention that.

What did you get?

Or are you afraid to admit it?

Lets just say it was good enough (in combination with my other outstanding, extraordinary qualities) to get the attention of Harvard, Penn, Vandy, and Duke. Dam, I guess I'm being arrogant now!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Garibaldo
How ironic that a person who is telling us to ignore such threads hoped into the current thread on AA and made an arguement for AA and attacked me. Wouldn't a person against these types of threads stay out of AA threads instead of pushing them further? Shouldn't someone who complains about how AA threads just turn into flame wars NOT say things like
"you're going to have some issues in the verbal section of the MCAT" when they argue with you?

First, I don't have a position on AA nor have I EVER stated one on SDN which is why I say ignore it! Second, I believe that if AA went away tomorrow, many URM's could still matriculate into medical school because schools like Harvard and Penn will ALWAYS make strong efforts to recruit and graduate minority students.

SO, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Also, "By quoting the 42 MCAT I'm saying that despite being a URM with current MCAT scores good enough to get me admitted to medical school, I've set the bar higher due TO MY OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS!!!" is an extremely arrogant thing to say. But it also doesnt address the fact of whether your scores are "good enough" because you are a URM, or "good enough" regardless of race. If it is the latter, your entire "I want a 42" post is even more arrogant than I initially thought. Even if it is the former, no need to go around parading your fantasy score when you have an actual one (and when in fact the best option, in this particular topic, is not to mention a personal score at all)

EVERY student that takes the MCAT should be shooting for a high score. Just becuse I have the "balls" to make public what I'm shooting for shows your own insecurities. If someon else said I'm gonna make a 45 on the MCAT, I'd say GREAT. But then I'm not threatned by the confidence of others. Geez, if I had said since "I'm a URM and the average URM MATRICULANT into medical school had an average score of 25, I'll just shoot for that" you people would cut me down so fast it would make my head spin.

So since you and others don't like me quoting scores, too bad!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by MacGyver
Remember this, you may get accepted to med school, but your race will have a substantial amount to do with that. Not 1%, more like a 20-30% boost.

So what are you jealous???????????????? Besides, instead of "hatin" why don't you study and maybe you can get a 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, 42T, on the MCAT too!

Did I mention a 42T on the MCAT?

 

[LoveDoc]

Why is it when bluedeviled creates a thread stating that she was offered a full merit ride to Vandy she got HIGH 5's but when Pathdr2b states she's working on her 42T she's an arrogant minority????

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by LoveDoc
Why is it when bluedeviled creates a thread stating that she was offered a full merit ride to Vandy she got HIGH 5's but when Pathdr2b states she's working on her 42T she's an arrogant minority????

For the same reason why when I wear my Carolina alumnae sweatshirt someone ALWAYS asks if I went to school there

It appears that minorities on SDN fall into one of 3 categories:

1) Arrogant - If that's how you see it , so be it baby!

2) Unqualified for admission based on stats

3) Arrogant and unqualified for admission based on stats

I imagine this is the reason not many URM's post on SDN. If I had the time, I'd start a premed web site for URM's but wait....... some of the SDN folks would probably just visit the site and flame us to death for being admitted

 

[DAL]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
For the same reason why when I wear my Carolina alumnae sweatshirt someone ALWAYS asks if I went to school there

It appears that minorities on SDN fall into one of 3 categories:

1) Arrogant - If that's how you see it , so be it baby!

2) Unqualified for admission based on stats

3) Arrogant and unqualified for admission based on stats

I imagine this is the reason not many URM's post on SDN. If I had the time, I'd start a premed web site for URM's but wait....... some of the SDN folks would probably just visit the site and flame us to death for being admitted

Whenever I wear my NC State sweatshirt everyone asks me the same question. I'm not a minority, so what? Maybe people just like to ask stupid irrelevant questions.

With all the talk in these threads centered around racism I've noticed that some people can only see things in black and white. While society may have forced them to only see the world through racist sunglasses, it greatly narrows your perception of people.

And LoveDoc, I don't recall anyone saying Path was an arrogant "minority". I just remember them calling her arrogant. I saw bluedeviled's post as a bit arrogant, but I believe she related it to a question about if she should continue with the interviewing process. It's a bit different in my mind. Still, I never gave high 5's and I thought it could be seen as arrogant. Please don't group everyone onto one huge boat and think since a few people did it that represents the feelings of all SDNers. It seems that you constantly display the "It's us against the world" theory, which is very unfortunate in my mind.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by DAL
Whenever I wear my NC State sweatshirt everyone asks me the same question. I'm not a minority, so what? Maybe people just like to ask stupid irrelevant questions.

With all due respect, there is a big difference between an alumni shirt and some ol' shirt. Besides, it does have NC State on it so I think what people are REALLY trying to say when you wear it is is "why in the hell do you have THAT shirt on when you should have on a Carolina shirt"? But wait, you probably couln't get in since your not a minority with low stats

And while you may have seen bludevils comment as arrogant, you certainily didn't flame her for it! And by the way I don't think posts like that are arrogant at all. I think a lot of you need some confidence and a 42T on the MCAT!

PS to Lovedoc - don't worry, cause I got your back!

 

[DAL]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
With all due respect, there is a big difference between an alumni shirt and some ol' shirt. Besides, it does have NC State on it so I think what people are REALLY trying to say when you wear it is is "why in the hell do you have THAT shirt on when you should have on a Carolina shirt"? But wait, you probably couln't get in since your not a minority with low stats

And while you may have seen bludevils comment as arrogant, you certainily didn't flame her for it! And by the way I don't think posts like that are arrogant at all. I think a lot of you need some confidence and a 42T on the MCAT!

PS to Lovedoc - don't worry, cause I got your back!

Sorry I didn't specify but I didn't think it mattered. My sweatshirt is an NC State alumni sweatshirt, if that means anything at all.....And no I didn't even apply to Carolina as they don't have a Chemical Engineering curriculum or a school of Engineering at all for that matter.

No, I didn't flame bluedevil for her comment. Please direct me to the post where I flamed you, because I don't remember it.

Oh yeah, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Pack with that spanking of Duke last night. WOOOOOHOOOOO!!!!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by DAL
And no I didn't even apply to Carolina as they don't have a Chemical Engineering curriculum.

Chemical engineering? They have the highest acceptance rate to medical school of ALL majors! Good luck with that!

Originally posted by DAL
With all the talk in these threads centered around racism I've noticed that some people can only see things in black and white. While society may have forced them to only see the world through racist sunglasses, it greatly narrows your perception of people

I've been quite suprised by the racism I've seen on SDN. The black and white issue frequently gets mentioned by nonURMs when a URM with lower stats gets admitted into medical school. I've seen this on just about every post like this, haven't you?

Originally posted by DAL
And LoveDoc, I don't recall anyone saying Path was an arrogant "minority". I just remember them calling her arrogant.

I think her point is that it seems to be OK for nonURM's to "brag" but not OK for URM's. This reminds me of what I deal with as a woman scientist, which for me has been a far more professional "issue" than race. Successful woman scientist are often thought of as "aggressive". Men on the other hand, are "assertive" when they're good scientists. For many minorities, a similar "double standard exists. If you're confident, some in the majority see that as arrogance. If your outspoken and differ with the opinion of the "majority", you're seen as "militant".

I don't know what Lovedoc's personal expereinces are but I can imagine that since we are both minority women, we have some similar negative expereinces based on race and gender. I also think I probably share personal exeriences with women in general, and other groups that have been repressed in society. These issues have only reinforced my desire to work hard and become the best doctor I can and is again the basis for why I think people should IGNORE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

 

[afabela]

Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it

 

[LoveDoc]

Originally posted by DAL

With all the talk in these threads centered around racism I've noticed that some people can only see things in black and white. While society may have forced them to only see the world through racist sunglasses, it greatly narrows your perception of people.

"It's us against the world" theory, which is very unfortunate in my mind.

DAL, may i dare ask your age? I promise you the world will shape and re-shape itself 100 times for us all between now and midlife.

At the ripe young age of 23 (6-7 years ago) I was in the first year of the work force in corporate america. After some transitions and problems adjusting to my new job I encountered a situation that required management intervention. I was presented with a 15+ document from my then manager detailing the problems he saw in my work performance. I read the document made my replies and went on with my duties. Months later, I intercepted a message from him to HR stating that he wanted to make sure his actions with me were appropriate since I was a minority and he had several examples of how he dealt with people such as me fairly.

I was hurt, disappointed, angered, and belittled. Why had a personnel problem that had NOTHING to do with race now involved the color of my skin?

This is not an isolated issue. The problem is I thought this man had the utmost respect for me and based his interactions on me as a person not me as a minority. Since I cannot X-ray individual psyche I choose to enter each relationship with all people with a hint of skepticism and stay conscience of my experiences and base my decisions upon them.

Thanks for having my back Path....

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

So everyone should cheat, in other words.
Well, that defeats the whole purpose of the card game, no?


Or perhaps Mr. White should be punished? Well, there are more then one Mr. White. Should all Mr. Whites be punished for the actions of a few Mr. Whites?


Perhaps we should try to create a card game where no one can cheat....

 

[INeedAdvice]

Except you're leaving out an important part.

Ms. White is dead. She has been dead for over a hundred years.

Also, Ms. Brown and Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow are dead as well.

It's a new game...on a different game board....

Many other people with the surname of White were in another country and didn't come over and "join the game" until a hundred years later....

Originally posted by afabela
Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it

 

[DAL]

Originally posted by LoveDoc
DAL, may i dare ask your age? I promise you the world will shape and re-shape itself 100 times for us all between now and midlife.

At the ripe young age of 23 (6-7 years ago) I was in the first year of the work force in corporate america. After some transitions and problems adjusting to my new job I encountered a situation that required management intervention. I was presented with a 15+ document from my then manager detailing the problems he saw in my work performance. I read the document made my replies and went on with my duties. Months later, I intercepted a message from him to HR stating that he wanted to make sure his actions with me were appropriate since I was a minority and he had several examples of how he dealt with people such as me fairly.

I was hurt, disappointed, angered, and belittled. Why had a personnel problem that had NOTHING to do with race now involved the color of my skin?

This is not an isolated issue. The problem is I thought this man had the utmost respect for me and based his interactions on me as a person not me as a minority. Since I cannot X-ray individual psyche I choose to enter each relationship with all people with a hint of skepticism and stay conscience of my experiences and base my decisions upon them.

Thanks for having my back Path....

LoveDoc-

I'm 24, but I believe I'm an old 24. I've worked since I was legal under the law, I've paid for 100% of my education along with a bit of help from my father, I'm paying for 100% of the application process including a Kaplan course, I worked engineering internships every single summer between school years to fund myself, and blah blah blah blah blah....I don't say this to garner attention, I say it merely to establish the fact that although I'm still a bit young I've worked very hard and I've seen a lot of things. Through my experiences I've developed a lot of skepticism for American society: the advantages of being rich over being poor, the advantages of being white over being black, etc. Still, I try and see the good and people and always treat people as I would like to be treated.

I understand your skepticism, and many people deserve such skepticism, but not all.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by afabela
Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it

When did Ms.Brown, Ms. Yellow, and Ms.Black get ALLOWED into the game in the first place?

 

[care bear]

--If all else fails, they resort to the arguement that blacks have gone through centuries of oppression and this is simply payback.---

i don't think its a 'last resort' argument at all. i think it's central. and many of these discussions-from both sides- miss that point.
the american gov't perpetuated discrimination of the utmost cruelty until our parents were children and teens. now, the american gov't realizes that it created a debt it must seek to rectify.



__________________

yes, ryo-ohki. the game was flawed from the onset. there's no way around that.

love, path, i really do feel you. gotta take the higher road tho. no letting discussions, no matter how infuriating they may be, cause us to be anything but the *classy* black women i know we are. . .

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
First, I don't have a position on AA nor have I EVER stated one on SDN which is why I say ignore it! Second, I believe that if AA went away tomorrow, many URM's could still matriculate into medical school because schools like Harvard and Penn will ALWAYS make strong efforts to recruit and graduate minority students.

SO, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!

You make me laugh, pathdr2b. Here you are claiming that you're impartial and then you're arguing a pro-AA arguement in another thread. Here you are telling us to ignore AA threads and you continually post in other AA threads.

Here's an affirmative action thread where he has been defending against any anti-AA arguements. Your bias is obvious, so don't pretend.

pathdr2b:

Like Dr.Carson, I believe that hard work AND opportunity will get ANYONE far in life.
Opportunity, now there's a thought.........................................

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56941&perpage=20&pagenumber=8

It's like saying "I hate black people because their big noses breath all the white man's air" and then saying "First, I don't have a position on race nor have I EVER stated one on SDN which is why I say ignore it!"

Dude, when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....you know.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Garibaldo

Dude, when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....you know.

Yeah, I know................. it must be your.................Let me give you a clue:. The Halle Berry line from the latest James Bond movie

 

[Dr. Lawyer]

"Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it"




This is idiotic. Take it out of my sight at once.

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Yeah, I know................. it must be your.................Let me give you a clue:. The Halle Berry line from the latest James Bond movie

Haven't seen it yet and don't ruin it for me!

 

[TeinVI]

 

[Dr.Tong]

Originally posted by afabela
Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it

Wow, now it's all clear to me...
But why is Ms Yellow not allowed to cheat along with Ms Brown and Ms Black?

 

[ermonty]

Originally posted by LoveDoc

I intercepted a message from him to HR stating that he wanted to make sure his actions with me were appropriate since I was a minority and he had several examples of how he dealt with people such as me fairly.

I was hurt, disappointed, angered, and belittled. Why had a personnel problem that had NOTHING to do with race now involved the color of my skin?

This is not an isolated issue. The problem is I thought this man had the utmost respect for me and based his interactions on me as a person not me as a minority.


LoveDoc,

I'm sorry you had to experience that. Your boss likely does have the utmost respect for you as a person (I said likely as I do not know the depths of the situation). This situation is a product of the reality of the world we live in. The union of the "us versus them" mentality (which is self perpetuating) and an extremely litigious (sp?) society has created the "defensive medicine" policies of the business world. You deserved to be treated like a person in this matter, but you were delt with as a special case for fear of what might happen should things become "unpleasant". The following example is to illustrate why such "defensive" policies are utilized, not to say that you in any way acted in such a manner.

I was working as a Personal Trainer at a private resort. There were many people who worked there, and a good representation of all ethnic backgrounds. A black man, Joe, was a locker room attendant. This resort, as any private establishment with wealthy clientel (sp?), had BANK. Joe knew this, and he was determined to get fired so that he could sue for racial descrimination. Joe was the one who was rascist. He constantly uttered racial slurs about whites, and chided other black people who worked at the resort for befriending whites. In his efforts to get fired Joe: 1) Came to work late and left early, 2) Slept in a back room during work hours, 3)STOLE member's and guest's belongings from their lockers (got caught on several occasions), 4) Cursed his boss and other employees for asking him to do tasks that are part of his job, etc. In the ~ 1yr that I was there Joe was not fired or punished in any way. WHY? Because the resort was so afraid of a racial descrimination lawsuit, the resort decided to tolerate his behavior (and compensate people for the materials and $ he stole). Obviously, if the resort had been taken to court, it would have had ample justification for firing the man. But, it was the potential bad PR that the resort faced if taken to court, as well as financial loss if the resort had lost, that caused it to take the course of action that it did.

THIS is the world we live in, and will be as long we continue to label other people and ourselves as a color. LoveDoc, again I am sorry you had to experience that, it is a shame. It also a shame that your boss was forced to treat you in that way because of the state of the world today.

Ermonty

 

[Jet915]

Yeah! Ms. Yellow doesnt get to cheat. It seems Ms. Yellow has higher gpa's and mcat's than Ms. White/Brown/Black..........that's not fair! It all comes down to parenting.......Ms. Yellow's parents IN GENERAL seem to stress education ALOT so its not a surprise that Ms. Yellow receives higher gpa's/mcats IN GENERAL. Ok, enough of this game......

Jetson

 

[Gumshoe]

the minorities along with liberal aid have created for themselves a no win situation:

Examine, if you will, the following scenario:

In response to past injustices, programs are continually employed and perpetuated to fix "wrongs"

Dr. X (minority) grows up does well as a student. If he does well for himself, he has a few troubles in certain circumstances because everyone thinks that he got to his current status because of things like AA, preferential programs, etc. This bothers him and his concious more than it should because he's been a product of a society that has said that he is a victim and that people oppress his race/color/creed, etc.

OR

Dr. X grows up, does well in school, but doesn't get selected to become a doctor like he wanted to be because after 3 years of trying he figures that the odds are stacked against him and he won't be able to compete with others of more affluent upbringing, etc. He rides the victim bandwagon to its grave and never really does what he wants to do.

So, either you do well and you are looked at as inferior, or you do well and don't make it and are looked at as lesser and end up doing something else, or ...

Let's just do well and forget about the rest. Who knows? What do you guys think? Just offering up an idea. maybe this isn't a good example?

Gummy

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by Jet915
Yeah! Ms. Yellow doesnt get to cheat. It seems Ms. Yellow has higher gpa's and mcat's than Ms. White/Brown/Black..........that's not fair! It all comes down to parenting.......Ms. Yellow's parents IN GENERAL seem to stress education ALOT so its not a surprise that Ms. Yellow receives higher gpa's/mcats IN GENERAL. Ok, enough of this game......

Jetson

God forbid that this should suggest something about how to raise your children.

 

[Jet915]

People can raise their children anyway they want. I'm just pointing out that the way you raise your child will often reflect how your child will turn out.

Jetson

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Jet915
Ms. Yellow receives higher gpa's/mcats IN GENERAL. Ok, enough of this game......
Jetson

You know.............................. people NEVER want to talk about this well documented fact. I've also NEVER heard ANYONE suggets that "yellow's" based on stats, deserve the majority of the medical school seats. If it's a game of the "best stats gets the seat", then I guess "yellow's" do DESERVE MOST of the seats in medical school

Let the "yellow" flaming commence.........................

 

[Caffeinated]

Originally posted by Dr. Lawyer
"Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it"




This is idiotic. Take it out of my sight at once.

Hey Doc Law,

You are not the first person I have heard to imply that white's are the one's with all the money. But consider this: there are poor white people, and there are blacks that have a lot more than me. The last few decades have seen a trend of more and more black families breaking through into middle class and more affluent incomes. This trend will only continue. So now that those families have money, should they not be eliglible for affirmative action?

The fundamental question is this: is guilt of historical injustices against inherent in one's skin color? Should I bear the guilt of the discrimination that was perpetrated against people in the past simply because I look like them? My ancestors were northern Quakers, who found slavery morally repugnant and incompatible with their faith. Am I less guilty than a southern white whose great great great great great great great (you get the point) grandfather owned slaves?

Doc Law, Your comment exposes one of the shortcomings of the card game analogy: those who started the game (and started the cheating) are no longer playing the game. Card games last a few hours; these injustices started before our generation.


Now, PathDr, are we the "ORM's" supposed to just suck it up and ignore AA? If something is morally unjust, don't we have a moral obligation in a free society to speak up? Is not the price of freedom eternal vigilance? You may complain that as a URM you have to be twice as good to get half the respect in your profession; one could argue that an "ORM" you have to be twice as good to even get INTO the profession.

One parting thought, which I will borrow and remodel from the 70's peace movement: Using affirmative action to end discrimination is like having sex to promote virginity.

 

[care bear]

no one ever responds to my posts.

no, the people playing are not the same. however, the *institution* playing (the american government) is. and it recognizes the need to make retributions for injustices that it as an entity perpetrated until well into our parents' lifetimes. that fact, and not these psuedo-moral philosophies, are the basis of the relevance of affirmative action.

 

[Caffeinated]

Originally posted by care bear
no one ever responds to my posts.

no, the people playing are not the same. however, the *institution* playing (the american government) is. and it recognizes the need to make retributions for injustices that it as an entity perpetrated until well into our parents' lifetimes. that fact, and not these psuedo-moral philosophies, are the basis of the relevance of affirmative action.

I'll respond with a few questions:

1. What metrics do we have to show when the retribution is completely repaid? What if it goes too far, will we have to tip the balance again and give favor to whites again?

2. What do you mean by "pseudo-moral"? I think you were just trying to dismiss it without giving an intelligent argument so you just resorted to name-calling. But I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you explain.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by afabela
Well before every one starts dising AA let me ask you this their is a card game going on against Ms. White, Ms. Brown, Ms. Black and Ms. Yellow, and at the begining of the game Ms. White starts to cheat and thus is winning, Ms. Brown, Ms. Yellow and Ms. Black all find out later on in the game so they all start to cheat as well. Ms. White finds out they are cheating to so she says ok no more cheating lets all just play fair now. Is that fair even though Ms. White has more winnings then the others because of her past cheating. Think about it

uhhh....whatever

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Caffeinated
Now, PathDr, are we the "ORM's" supposed to just suck it up and ignore AA? If something is morally unjust, don't we have a moral obligation in a free society to speak up? Is not the price of freedom eternal vigilance? You may complain that as a URM you have to be twice as good to get half the respect in your profession; one could argue that an "ORM" you have to be twice as good to even get INTO the profession.

One parting thought, which I will borrow and remodel from the 70's peace movement: Using affirmative action to end discrimination is like having sex to promote virginity.

I totally agree that you have the right to speak out against AA. This dialogue is crucially important. But I do have a concern about your last statement in the first paragraph I quoted. How is that true? I quoted some statistics from the 2002-2003 MSAR earlier this thread that no one has yet addressed. What you're saying here seems to contradict that data, but I'd like to know your thoughts on it.

AA is not a tool to end discrimination. It's a tool to increase representation of groups that have been, and continue to be, historically underrepresented in a certain profession.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
When did Ms.Brown, Ms. Yellow, and Ms.Black get ALLOWED into the game in the first place?

life is just so unfair huh.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by Gumshoe
the minorities along with liberal aid have created for themselves a no win situation:

Examine, if you will, the following scenario:

In response to past injustices, programs are continually employed and perpetuated to fix "wrongs"

Dr. X (minority) grows up does well as a student. If he does well for himself, he has a few troubles in certain circumstances because everyone thinks that he got to his current status because of things like AA, preferential programs, etc. This bothers him and his concious more than it should because he's been a product of a society that has said that he is a victim and that people oppress his race/color/creed, etc.

OR

Dr. X grows up, does well in school, but doesn't get selected to become a doctor like he wanted to be because after 3 years of trying he figures that the odds are stacked against him and he won't be able to compete with others of more affluent upbringing, etc. He rides the victim bandwagon to its grave and never really does what he wants to do.

So, either you do well and you are looked at as inferior, or you do well and don't make it and are looked at as lesser and end up doing something else, or ...

Let's just do well and forget about the rest. Who knows? What do you guys think? Just offering up an idea. maybe this isn't a good example?

Gummy

Since when are those the only 2 options?

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by care bear
no one ever responds to my posts.

no, the people playing are not the same. however, the *institution* playing (the american government) is. and it recognizes the need to make retributions for injustices that it as an entity perpetrated until well into our parents' lifetimes. that fact, and not these psuedo-moral philosophies, are the basis of the relevance of affirmative action.

If the institutions/govt are all run by the evil white man, then why are you so anxious to run to them for an answer for all social problems?

 

[ermonty]

Originally posted by care bear


no, the people playing are not the same. however, the *institution* playing (the american government) is. and it recognizes the need to make retributions for injustices that it as an entity perpetrated until well into our parents' lifetimes. that fact, and not these psuedo-moral philosophies, are the basis of the relevance of affirmative action.

care bear,

Is it a pseudo-moral philosophy that says slavery/racism/decrimination is wrong?

Slavery/JimCrow Laws were wrong. Preference given to an individual on the basis of race is wrong.

I agree with you that the U.S. govt. has a debt to pay to black amercians. But individual persons and classes of people alive today are not to blame, and thus should not be descriminated against in order for retribution for past wrongs to be implemented. AA as it stands now is not the answer. I don't have the answer, but I think that an AA policy based on socio-economic status would be a start.

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by Jet915
People can raise their children anyway they want. I'm just pointing out that the way you raise your child will often reflect how your child will turn out.

Jetson

Sure, everyone has their choice, but parents who don't emphasize education and then complain about their plight get no sympathy from me.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by LoveDoc
Why is it when bluedeviled creates a thread stating that she was offered a full merit ride to Vandy she got HIGH 5's but when Pathdr2b states she's working on her 42T she's an arrogant minority????

Because bluedeviled was inquiring about whether she should goto an expensive interview, AND her full ride was hidden among all her other acceptances. She also only mentioned it once so people had an idea of her status. This is NECESSARY information.

Path mentioned her 42T in every post and reply, and her score was not necessary. In fact, she ALREADY HAS a real mcat score and could have shared that. Instead she tells the whole world that she IS GOING TO GET a certain score.

Your comparison is absolutely atrocious, and I am surprised your mind's "logic filters" managed to allow you post this.

 

[care bear]

if we accept that the government has a right to try to make retribution for some of the wrongs that it perpetrated, and that this is essentially one of the fundamental bases of AA, then we must accept the fact that in order to give preference to some, others may temporarily feel as if they have been the targets of discrimination. however, this isn't true. they are simply not the recipients of preferential retributive action.

we have to be willing to think of people for certain purposes as members of the groups that they do belong to. it's nice, but invalid politically, to say that since the people hurt by aa today are only the children of those who benefited from jim crow or slavery, they should be immune from any negative consequences or any responsibility to acknowledge that their position in life is statistically likely to have benefited from the cruelty of their ancestors.
i have to say, the card game analogy was maybe a little simplistic, but it's pretty darn accurate.

americans like to believe that each person can determine their own destiny and that the playing field should level with the birth of each new child~ however, that's just not the world we live in. our lives, and our successes, are often governed by a complex fabric of determinants far beyond our control.

lastly, i coined the term 'psuedo-moral' to reflect the attitude behind a large number of these posts. a morality that out of the context of history, holds up to the closest scrunity, but is in reality built on erroneous premises (such as; righting a historical injustice toward an oppressed group is less important than making sure that no members of other groups recieve any possible hindrances as a result).

lastly, i'd just like to say that medical school admissions is nowhere said to be governed by mcat and gpa alone, with everything else as a 'lesser' or 'unfair' factor. in fact, most med schools are very forthright in saying that the top three things they are looking for in a class is scholastic achievement, diversity, and experience/personal qualities. we as applicants are in no position to say 'no, that's wrong. you are not allowed to value diversity more than my 35 mcat. ' we just can't say that. because they have the schools. so they can decide what's important to them. do you see the fragility of such an argument?

that's all from me. . .sorry to continue the '*ignore* affirmative action thread. . i just couldn't resist.

 

[Garibaldo]

Originally posted by care bear
if we accept that the government has a right to try to make retribution for some of the wrongs that it perpetrated, and that this is essentially one of the fundamental bases of AA, then we must accept the fact that in order to give preference to some, others may temporarily feel as if they have been the targets of discrimination. however, this isn't true. they are simply not the recipients of preferential retributive action.

We don't accept that the government has that right and that's why we have these debates. You can't assume that as a premise. The second part seems more like a cheap semantic misdirection than a logical arguement. It's like saying:

"In order for a greasy used car salesman to make a larger commission, he must jack up the price of the car. Some may feel that he is unfairly ripping off the consumer for excessive profit. However, this isn't true. He is simple moving green pieces of paper from your pocket to his."

we have to be willing to think of people for certain purposes as members of the groups that they do belong to. it's nice, but invalid politically, to say that since the people hurt by aa today are only the children of those who benefited from jim crow or slavery, they should be immune from any negative consequences or any responsibility to acknowledge that their position in life is statistically likely to have benefited from the cruelty of their ancestors.
i have to say, the card game analogy was maybe a little simplistic, but it's pretty darn accurate.

We don't have to be willing to categorize people for any purpose because that leads to the sort of mentality that creates racist stereotypes in the first place. If we categorize all blacks as disadvantaged and oppressed, then we create that impression of the whole group when it may not be true for all blacks. It is this line of thought that leads to policies that give sweeping preference to all blacks despite their circumstances. And, as we can see, it has lead to a racial stereotype where whites may immediately assume that blacks at universities got to where they are only through AA.
How do you account for the fact that Asian students, Middle-Eastern students (like myself) and other immigrants do not come from this country, yet we may easily be passed up for a spot when the preference is given to a minority? How about the fact that only a small minority of whites owned slaves during the time of slavery, so a large portion of the current population doesn't descend from white slave owners? They may, in fact, descend from someone who died to end slavery in the Civil War.

americans like to believe that each person can determine their own destiny and that the playing field should level with the birth of each new child~ however, that's just not the world we live in. our lives, and our successes, are often governed by a complex
fabric of determinants far beyond our control.

The current system of AA already accounts for socioeconomic disadvantage. It also harms other minority groups such as Asians who were\are also discriminated against. How about the history of genocide and war that plagued the countries of many immigrants? What about their past and their children's past? Should they get preferential treatment too because they have a history of poverty and dispair?

lastly, i coined the term 'psuedo-moral' to reflect the attitude behind a large number of these posts. a morality that out of the context of history, holds up to the closest scrunity, but is in reality built on erroneous premises (such as; righting a historical injustice toward an oppressed group is less important than making sure that no members of other groups recieve any possible hindrances as a result).

You've only replaced one moral premise with your own moral premise. It's not some bit of collective wisdom that historical injustice is more important than unfairness to certain race groups. That's just your opinion. Also, you've phrased the premise in such a way that it seems as if there is only one arguement made against AA. There are over a dozen different arguements for ending AA. For example, you could have changed the premise to:
"righting a historical injustice toward an oppressed group is less important than making sure that those who struggle their entire lives to do their best should always get the best"
or
"righting a historical injustice toward an oppressed group is less important than righting historical justice in a way that reflects the oppression of each individual aside from classifications of race, gender, etc."

lastly, i'd just like to say that medical school admissions is nowhere said to be governed by mcat and gpa alone, with everything else as a 'lesser' or 'unfair' factor. in fact, most med schools are very forthright in saying that the top three things they are looking for in a class is scholastic achievement, diversity, and experience/personal qualities. we as applicants are in no position to say 'no, that's wrong. you are not allowed to value diversity more than my 35 mcat. ' we just can't say that. because they have the schools. so they can decide what's important to them. do you see the fragility of such an argument?

It's foolish to think that since medical schools currently hold a policy and some degree of power over us, that we shouldn't be able to question or attempt to change that policy. This is what you suggest when you say "we as applicants are in no position to say 'no, that's wrong. you are not allowed to value diversity more than my 35 mcat. ' we just can't say that. because they have the schools. so they can decide what's important to them."
We are NOT at the mercy of the system and the past. Laws and institutions have always been a mold capable of being manipulated by the changing values of society over time. Affirmative action policies are no different. We can and SHOULD question their legitimacy. Diversity should be scratched as a category because the "experience/personal qualities" category can be broadened to include factors that will inherently provide racial diversity.

Affirmative action as it is practiced today does little to promote racial equality. The majority of admissions in AA programs are middle-income minorities, precisely those who don't need the program in the first place. AA is a rather cheap way for the nation to escape its moral obligation to address the underlying problems that exist in this country. It's like allowing the wounds of injustice to be inflicted on minorities and then covering it up with a bandage we call affirmative action. Wonderful, isn't it?

 

[Dmcpharmd2be]

Oh my God, that Jim Crow laws comment, was completely tacky on so many levels. And served no point other then trying to infuriate the previous poster before you.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by care bear
if we accept that the government has a right to try to make retribution for some of the wrongs that it perpetrated, and that this is essentially one of the fundamental bases of AA, then we must accept the fact that in order to give preference to some, others may temporarily feel as if they have been the targets of discrimination. however, this isn't true. they are simply not the recipients of preferential retributive action.

With all due respect, this is absolute BS. That attitude is similar to the racist southern idea that Jim crow laws were "OK" because some of them didnt mention race directly, they tried to get around it by including reading laws to vote, which they KNEW would target blacks disproportionately. This is a zero sum game. When you give advantages to one person, you give a raw deal to another person, so you cant pretend to say that since you are just giving a plus to one person that the other person isnt affected. Your logic assumes that everybody who wants to can get the job, or get into the school, and that favoring one group has absolutely zero effect on the other group.

AA is racial discrimination, plain and simple. Is it as bad as Jim Crow and other stuff int he past, absolutely not, but just because its not as severe does NOT preclude it from being discrimination. Anytime race is used TO ANY DEGREE it is de facto discrimination. Even the courts recognize this, they just argue that diversity is so important that we must have racial discrimination. But you wont hear them arguing that its not racial discrimination to begin with.

we as applicants are in no position to say 'no, that's wrong. you are not allowed to value diversity more than my 35 mcat. ' we just can't say that. because they have the schools. so they can decide what's important to them. do you see the fragility of such an argument?

OK, so you're saying we have no right to complain because they control the system? I doubt your comrades in the 60s would agree wtih you. Did they just look at the University of Mississippi and say "well they control the school so if they dont let in blacks theres nothing we can say about it"? Hell no, they didnt do that.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Caffeinated
Now, PathDr, are we the "ORM's" supposed to just suck it up and ignore AA? If something is morally unjust, don't we have a moral obligation in a free society to speak up? Is not the price of freedom eternal vigilance? You may complain that as a URM you have to be twice as good to get half the respect in your profession; one could argue that an "ORM" you have to be twice as good to even get INTO the profession.

!


1) Debating AA will do absolutely NOTHING to better your chances for admissions to medical school. This is what I mean by ignore AA. I also notice that people's stance on this issue appears to change once they're admitted to medical school and it seems to become an "issue to ignore". When was the last time the allopathic board debated AA? Besides people of color have been "sucking it up" since we got here!

2) I didn't "complain" about having to be twice as good ect..it's an established fact for many people of color and women in general. Honestly, I really don't care much about the people's opinion of my scientific acumen.

3) Will someone please address the issue of Asians having the best stats and therefore "deserve" most of the seats in medical school.