pathdr2b

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Or at least what people think about it! Many threads on SDN are full of debates on the legality of AA. Many more URM's are trying to defend it. My question is why?

Debating AA is such a waste because as the law stands now it is legal!!! Furthermore, as a URM I don't give a [email protected]# what people think of how I got to where I am or how I'm getting into medical school. Bottom line, I'm going to continue to do the best I can to become the best Physician/Scientist I can. By definition, that will make me more than qualified to get the job done!

Instead of debating AA, we should all just focus on getting the best grades and MCATs we can but understand that not everyone will be successful in getting accepted into medical school. I venture to say that those that waste their time debating the unfairness of AA might be better off using that time to study!!!
 

DW

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someone, make it stop :laugh:
 
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pathdr2b

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Originally posted by DW
someone, make it stop :laugh:
How hypocritical of you. Post this and then start you own thread. Looks like we've got some thread hatin' going on in here!

:p :p :laugh: :laugh:

Besides EVERY thread with URM in it becomes either:

1) A debate about the unfairness of AA

or

2) An occasion for those who hate AA and/or URM's to slam everyone with a different point of view.

I've gotta go now, those old MCAT exams are screaming my name!

Peace
 
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chopsuey

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it's amazing how far off the mark some people can be....if this isn't funny to you, then please keep reading!

it's a joke and i have faith that you, too, will understand it someday soon!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

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Originally posted by chopsuey
it's amazing how far off the mark some people can be....if this isn't funny to you, then please keep reading!

it's a joke and i have faith that you, too, will understand it someday soon!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:confused:
 

Jalby

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Originally posted by pathdr2b

Debating AA is such a waste because as the law stands now it is legal!!!
Jim Crow laws used be laws and were legal. Should those things have been debated????
 

tryingagain

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I second Jalby's remark. Not all laws are good laws or are right just because they are legal at one time in history.
 
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pathdr2b

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Originally posted by Jalby
Jim Crow laws used be laws and were legal. Should those things have been debated????
Why don't you guys debate while I focus on getting a 42 on the April MCAT and getting my research published this year!:p
 
X

X

First of all, you started the discussion, why the hell were you not studying for the MCAT's then.
Second you got to where you are because you are a URM, then why the hell are you studying to get a 42, and btw good luck with that.


X
 

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It's legal, for now--at least until the Supreme Court knocks it down. That'll probably happen before the end of the year.

When discussing AA, people here do not debate the legality (because it is simply unconstitutional) of it. Rather they debate the morality of it and the consquences it has on admissions, the medical field, and society in general. My last point, is that without debate-abolishment of slavery, the lifting of racial segregation, and women's suffrage would never have been taken to court and ultimatley molded into law. The birth of laws or the overturning of laws begins with debate beside the watercooler and then spreads to the court system. So, debate on SDN'ers--its the American way!
 
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pathdr2b

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Originally posted by X

Second you got to where you are because you are a URM, then why the hell are you studying to get a 42, and btw good luck with that.X
Now should I reply with an equally ignorant statement....ummmmmmmm.

But I think your're right, even if I get the 42 on the MCAT, idiots like you will still think it was being an URM that got me into medical school. Any URM will tell you the old saying that you have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good as everyone else. All the more reason for people to...................................



IGNORE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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just a thought....


i'd much rather read interesting threads about people's opinions on things (like AA and other things currently in the news) than posts that say... "I have a x.x gpa and a yy MCAT...what are my chances at z school?"

there's nothing wrong with a little intellectual stimulation every so often...if you don't want to talk about the subject...you can ignore the affirmative action posts or whatever else is being discussed. no one is forcing you to read these threads...

i have to say i agree with everyone who has said that a law isn't necessarily right.... people definitely have to voice their opinions...that's how things change...

keep debating SDNers...it gives me something to do at work! ;)
 

doepug

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Ignoring stupid threads is commendable.

Censoring discussion about AA is ridiculous. Just because AA is the status quo does not mean that it is morally just, ethically correct, or constitutional. Telling competitive pre-meds that it shouldn't be discussed is futile.

I agree with Gleevec; if pathdr2b wants to get into med school on his/her own merits without consideration of race, he/she should call themselves white on their AMCAS application. If nothing else, it'll lead to interesting discussions during interviews.

Keep on debating,
doepug
 

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i like the front line affirmative action debate in the everyone forum.
 

lola

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Originally posted by pathdr2b

But I think your're right, even if I get the 42 on the MCAT, idiots like you will still think it was being an URM that got me into medical school. Any URM will tell you the old saying that you have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good as everyone else.

no one would think that if affirmative action didn't exist.
 
X

X

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Now should I reply with an equally ignorant statement....ummmmmmmm.

But I think your're right, even if I get the 42 on the MCAT, idiots like you will still think it was being an URM that got me into medical school.

I didn't say that being URM is what is going to get you into med school....that is what YOU said in your first post.

Here is what you said:

"Furthermore, as a URM I don't give a [email protected]# what people think of how I got to where I am or how I'm getting into medical school"

Apparently though it seems that you are starting to give a damn. And why are you bragging about a 42 that you are going to get. Just get it then talk. And just how do you plan on getting an exact 42 on the MCAT? Explain that one. Btw, not every URM got into med school because of their URM status, I don't think there is anyone here who believes that (although you seem to think so).

Lastly, if you want to know my opinion on the matter. I think there is some validity to the argument that URM will go back and practice in their area more so than other doctors. Also they may be able to provide better care to people of their race as data shows. I am against it being blind faith, sure some URM need to be helped but you can't let anyone who is from that minority just walk into med schools. There has to be strict criteria here, after all high intellect is necessary to learn and absorb this info along with compassion. I think we all mean to keep ignorance out of the profession, people should not be just allowed admission just because of their race. Otherwise you get people who oppose having debates and believe laws that exist are words of god getting into med school. We don't need that.


X
 

galen

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There are, and always have been, many 'good' reasons for distinguishing amongst and favoring and disfavoring people on the basis of their race. None of these reasons makes up for the harm it does...period.

However, consideration should be given based on disadvantaged background (whether black, white, Hispanic or Asian) and application costs including interview travel expenses should be subsidized for these applicants.


BTW--sorry, this was already in Everyone thread & i promise it's my first and last post on this subject...
 

womansurg

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Hey..guys......

This is the IGNORE affirmative action thread. The DEBATE affirmative action threads are next door.

(I popped in here looking for a little relief.....NO chance, baby :( )
 

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consideration should be given based on disadvantaged background (whether black, white, Hispanic or Asian)
I definitely agree that consideration should be based on a disadvantaged status, as opposed to race.

BTW, when including "Hispanic" in that list of black, white, and Asian, it seems as if Hispanic is regarded as a "race".

Hispanics can be racially any of the 3 races (Asian, Black-African, or Caucasian).

For instance, if they are indigenous North or South Americans or from the islands such as PR, then racially (not culturally, of course), they are Asian. Their descendants mostly sailed over from Polynesia and Southern Asia via the Pacific Ocean or walked over via the Bering Straights from Northern Asia 12,000 years ago. The ancient Asians who didn't make it all the way down South and stayed up in Alaska/Canada are still racially Asian, but they're not Hispanic since they didn't have the history of Spanish explorers settling in their territory and learning Spanish (they would be today's Eskimos & N. American Natives).

An Hispanic can be racially Black-African (example: Brazilian soccer player, Pele). Their descendants were mainly African slaves.

Or an Hispanic can be racially Caucasian (example: Southern European descendants such as boxer Oscar de la Hoya or singer Marc Anthony or singer Ricky Martin). Their descendants were mostly from Spain and Portugal...

Or bi-racially Asian/Caucasian (example: Jennifer Lopez), etc.
 
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pathdr2b

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Originally posted by Gleevec
And I am not going to ignore the fact that you keep acting like you are going to get a 42 on the MCAT, even though you are URM. It is one thing to believe it yourself to drive you, but it is another to brag to the world about it. Just because you are a URM doesnt mean you are immune from criticisms of arrogance. Maybe you should get your MCAT score first before you start bragging about your legitimate stats. Because right now you really come off as arrogant.

Let's not confuse CONFIDENCE with arrogance. By quoting the 42 MCAT I'm saying that despite being a URM with current MCAT scores good enough to get me admitted to medical school, I've set the bar higher due TO MY OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS!!! The fact that this post received all the negative flack tells me that some of you are too close minded to understand what I'm trying to say.


When I created this thread it was intended to convey the message that a lot of people that post on SDN spend too much time worrying about how people got into medical school. This is especially seen if the person with "lower stats" is a URM and got into medical school when the ORM did not with higher stats. This thread was NEVER about censoring AA debates but the fact that as a premed there are plenty of other things to talk about pertinent to admission to medical school. But perhaps for people like Gleevec, AA IS all you have to talk about (other than calling me arrogant:p )
 
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Originally posted by lola
no one would think that if affirmative action didn't exist.
You're right, SOME people would just assume others are incompetent based soley on race or gender or religion. So please tell me you're not so naive that you think there aren't a lot of people that judge others strictly based what they "see" instead of their qualifications. One need only look at the struggles of professional women (like earning 75 cents for every man's dollar) to see plenty of examples of where this has been the case.

And by the way, why do you people assume I'm pro AA? Is it because I'm a URM? I've never stated my position on this rather irrelevant (to me) issue!
 

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I am sick of people complaining about affirmative action. I see no one talking about legacies, which are children of alumnae, getting accepted into top schools just because their parents went there. And these students usually have lower SAT scores and grades then most regular applicants. I wonder why no one talks about that, maybe its because legacy applicants are usually white middle-class to upper middle class students. Talk about not breaking the status quo there.
Do you really think a reputable medical school is going to admit a URM with subpar grades and scores, just because of their race. Race is a factor in the admission process, not an automatic admission to medical school. Do you really think all minorities are stupid and do poorly on standardized tests.
In addition, AA is supposed to help women, this means white women also. I guess this fact is thrown out, so it seems that only URMs are benefiting from AA. If there was a program to help only white students get into medical school, not one person would complain. But wait there was for about 250 years. It was called segregation. But that didn't end till the 60s right. Why do the think the majority of middle-aged blacks doctors went to historically black medical schools, because these schools were the places that black medical students were admitted and felt comfortable. Get a life people
 
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Originally posted by X
And just how do you plan on getting an exact 42 on the MCAT? Explain that one.
I'm going to get a 42T by telling AAMC that I'm a URM. I should get at least 10 points for that:p
 

LoveDoc

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I am famous for provoking SDN/AA flame wars. Besides the fact that I pride myself for being a controversial person this site is a prime example of what people are thinking (but too scared to say) in the real world.
 

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Originally posted by learss79
Do you really think a reputable medical school is going to admit a URM with subpar grades and scores, just because of their race.
Yes


Race is a factor in the admission process, not an automatic admission to medical school. Do you really think all minorities are stupid and do poorly on standardized tests.

About 80% of current URM medical school admits would have been rejected if they were not URM. No, not all minorities are stupid and do poorly on standardized tests.


In addition, AA is supposed to help women, this means white women also. I guess this fact is thrown out, so it seems that only URMs are benefiting from AA.
I guess Gratz isn't a white woman. Please refrain your arguments to the topic at hand, educational AA.
 

Gleevec

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I think legacy preference is just as bad as URM preference (which is why its so funny when Bush talks about it).

And path, I will comment on affirmative action when I feel like it, and take a look at my post history before you start spreading lies about where and when I decide to post.

I am applying next year and I am relatively confident in my own chances and believe I can get in despite URM favoritism. But just because some people succeed despite the way the system works doesnt mean the system is right. During slavery, many african americans were freed/managed to escape to the North, but that doesnt mean that the system was correct. And you advocate ignoring the system and just dealing with it, but same example. Sometimes the system needs to be fixed, and living with it would result in slavery (if people had just lived with it) or a bad selection system.

And yes, there is a difference between confidence and arrogance. Confidence is something internal and passive that doesnt need to be shown to everyone. Arrogance is the external and active manifestation of confidence that involves telling everyone your (prospective) deed that you believe deserves praise. You are doing the latter in this case, because if you were confident you wouldnt be gloating about TRYING to get a 42. You keep mentioning the 42 in almost EVERY SINGLE POST on this thread. And since you said you took the MCAT already, instead of stating your dream score you could:

1. just not state any score at all (ideal)
2. or state your current score (i dont really care for this, because its private).

Either way, you are correct in saying there is a difference between arrogance and confidence, you are just incorrect in identifying your position on that spectrum.

AA is an imperfect system that can use a lot of fixing, and as an American in a democracy and a hopeful doctor myself I have every right to discuss AA from my perspective just like you have every right to discuss it from yours.
 

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Originally posted by Gleevec
I am applying next year and I am relatively confident in my own chances and believe I can get in despite URM favoritism.
good luck, with all those URM taking all the seats, you might not have a chance.:rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by Gleevec
And since you said you took the MCAT already [...] state your current score
Is this true?!

Then Path - by all means, feel free to mention that.

What did you get?

Or are you afraid to admit it? :p
 

Gleevec

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Originally posted by Tuesday Weld
Is this true?!

Then Path - by all means, feel free to mention that.

What did you get?

Or are you afraid to admit it? :p
There is no point in asking because there is no way to determine the validity of the actual score. Also I feel in threads of this nature it is counterproductive to speak of one's own personal stats, because it places undue burden on individuals for an entire system's failing.

But yes, I wish path had not been so cocky in his "I am getting a 42 blah blah" and had just not said any score at all (or if he ABSOLUTELY had to say a score to put his mind at ease he should say what he already got like the rest of us do at different times and posts)

Also, "By quoting the 42 MCAT I'm saying that despite being a URM with current MCAT scores good enough to get me admitted to medical school, I've set the bar higher due TO MY OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS!!!" is an extremely arrogant thing to say. But it also doesnt address the fact of whether your scores are "good enough" because you are a URM, or "good enough" regardless of race. If it is the latter, your entire "I want a 42" post is even more arrogant than I initially thought. Even if it is the former, no need to go around parading your fantasy score when you have an actual one (and when in fact the best option, in this particular topic, is not to mention a personal score at all)
 

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Or at least what people think about it! Many threads on SDN are full of debates on the legality of AA. Many more URM's are trying to defend it. My question is why?

Debating AA is such a waste because as the law stands now it is legal!!! Furthermore, as a URM I don't give a [email protected]# what people think of how I got to where I am or how I'm getting into medical school. Bottom line, I'm going to continue to do the best I can to become the best Physician/Scientist I can. By definition, that will make me more than qualified to get the job done!

Instead of debating AA, we should all just focus on getting the best grades and MCATs we can but understand that not everyone will be successful in getting accepted into medical school. I venture to say that those that waste their time debating the unfairness of AA might be better off using that time to study!!!

How ironic that a person who is telling us to ignore such threads hoped into the current thread on AA and made an arguement for AA and attacked me. Wouldn't a person against these types of threads stay out of AA threads instead of pushing them further? Shouldn't someone who complains about how AA threads just turn into flame wars NOT say things like
"you're going to have some issues in the verbal section of the MCAT" when they argue with you?

STRANGE :mad:
 
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I find it ever so interesting that no one addressed some important points brought up by learss79.


I am sick of people complaining about affirmative action. I see no one talking about legacies, which are children of alumnae, getting accepted into top schools just because their parents went there. And these students usually have lower SAT scores and grades then most regular applicants. I wonder why no one talks about that, maybe its because legacy applicants are usually white middle-class to upper middle class students.

I wonder does that prove her point.
 

Gleevec

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Originally posted by ganglion
I find it ever so interesting that no one addressed some important points brought up by learss79.


I am sick of people complaining about affirmative action. I see no one talking about legacies, which are children of alumnae, getting accepted into top schools just because their parents went there. And these students usually have lower SAT scores and grades then most regular applicants. I wonder why no one talks about that, maybe its because legacy applicants are usually white middle-class to upper middle class students.

I wonder does that prove her point.
I said at the beginning of the last post that I think legacies are just as illegitimate. The problem is that not many people on SDN have been gung-ho about their legacy status. If there were such characters they too would incur the same type of responses. This also has to do with the fact that legacy will apply to one school, while URM applies to every school.
 

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avg mcat for women is lower. yet, the majority of med schools are about 50% women. apparently they see the advantage in having a heterogeneous class.
 

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Well, personally I don't see anything wrong with having preference for legacies. Are legacies even that common in medical school?
 

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Don't ask me how it happened, but somehow my lifeforce became linked to discussions about affirmative action and URM status (like E.T. was linked to Elliot). Anyway, you're all killing me by debating these topics over and over again. So, as future physicians I implore you to end my suffering and cease at once. Primum non nocere = the first thing (is) to do no harm.
 

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Why don't you guys debate while I focus on getting a 42 on the April MCAT and getting my research published this year!:p
This is quite possibly the cockiest and most arrogant statement I think I've ever heard on SDN.

Remember this, you may get accepted to med school, but your race will have a substantial amount to do with that. Not 1%, more like a 20-30% boost.
 

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Originally posted by mamie
good luck, with all those URM taking all the seats, you might not have a chance.:rolleyes:
Hey mamie,

how does it feel to know you screwed over a more deserving applicant because you got admitted to HMS because you're a minority?
 

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I agree with AA HOWEVER what about all the poor/uneducated white people. Yeah those living in trailer parks with a drunk single mother and an absent father, who have been abused. Why shouldn't they also receive 'affirmative action'?

Anyhow, if you want to talk about discrimination what about Howard? I'm white and I doubt I'll get in, BECAUSE of my color! is that fair?!?

HOWEVER on the other hand.... yes it is harder for URM's, there is discrimination and I know what pathdr means by having to work 'harder' to proove himself.

So what's the solution? I have it, interviews should be conducted behind a screen and no one should be allowed to mention what color/race they are in applications. I'm telling you this could work.

Ocean11
 
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Originally posted by MacGyver
Hey mamie,

how does it feel to know you screwed over a more deserving applicant because you got admitted to HMS because you're a minority?
more deserving applicant? what determines a more deserving applicant? his/her non-urm status?

people why dont just accept responsiblity for ur application status instead of pointing fingers, hopefully when they finally get rid a AA, we will see all the more more deserving people get in :rolleyes:
 

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I've been on SDN a long time, and pathdr2b is the only person I can ever remember on this forum who feels the need to post how shes going to ace the MCAT on every single post she makes.

Its fine to be obsessed but lets keep some stuff to ourselves people.

I get the distinct feeling that even if she does get a 42 on the MCAT, we will never hear the end of it. She might as well just post it at the bottom of her profile instead of mentioning it in every post.

While she's at it, why doesnt she just tattoo the score on her forehead so nobody at your med school will mistakenly think her scores were subpar.

At least that way when you start up a conversation with new people, they wont have to listen to you drone on and on again about how you're so smart and got a 42 MCAT.

Gee, I think I have now mentioned the words 42 MCAT more than pathdr2b has. Amazing.
 

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Originally posted by ocean11
So what's the solution? I have it, interviews should be conducted behind a screen and no one should be allowed to mention what color/race they are in applications. I'm telling you this could work.
You'd have to use some sort of voice modulation equipment too, otherwise you'd have people claiming that they were discriminated against based on their accent or vocal characteristics.
 

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Originally posted by MacGyver
Hey mamie,

how does it feel to know you screwed over a more deserving applicant because you got admitted to HMS because you're a minority?
Classic!:)

I wouldn't know, b/c I believe that I am a deserving applicant, just like everybody else that applies to medical school. At least every med school I applied to thought that I was a deserving applicant.

Oh, and it does feel good to be here. Thanks for asking.:)

Don't ever disrespect me again.



** The views expressed by mamie are not necessarily those of Harvard Medical School and its subsidieries.**
 

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Someone suggested that the presence of legacies justifies the presence of AA. So, if we don't solve all the problems all at once, we can't address any one problem on its own, eh? Wow, you pro-AA people are REALLY getting desperate for arguements. Can someone present any data on the boost students get for legacies? I'd really like to see it.
 

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Originally posted by ocean11
I agree with AA HOWEVER what about all the poor/uneducated white people. Yeah those living in trailer parks with a drunk single mother and an absent father, who have been abused. Why shouldn't they also receive 'affirmative action'?
This is an argument I don't understand. They DO take this into account. They have a disadvantaged question on the AMCAS...they mark whether or not you come from a rural/medically underserved place...and they do seek to have a diverse crowd...and this includes socioeconomic status. No, it may not be a formal policy...but it is done.

I've asked this several times and have never gotten a reply: How don't adcoms of schools consider socioeconomic status? Does anyone have statistics to show they don't?

Another issue: the thing is this...medical schools don't admit profiles or races or whatever....they admit PEOPLE. Period. Nationally, only less than 7% of medical school students admitted are black. If they wanted it to match the national percentage it would have to be about twice that amount and they sure as hell wouldn't have a 39.8% acceptance rate (according to the MSAR 2002-2003....updated data would be great if someone has the newer one). Comparatively non-URM applicants have a 44% acceptance rate (calculated by myself from subtracting out the URM stats on p43 in that MSAR....anyone is free to check my math). Maybe it's changed in a year. But people's arguments about black people having this easy time getting into med school or only getting in because of their race seems pretty damn illogical considering this. But I'm no statistician, so feel free to debunk my argument.

Edit: Garibaldo...you never even addressed my arguments in the last post...so to say that pro-AA people are getting desperate seems a bit of a stretch, considering you haven't even addressed all of our points....
 

mamie

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Originally posted by Garibaldo
Someone suggested that the presence of legacies justifies the presence of AA. So, if we don't solve all the problems all at once, we can't address any one problem on its own, eh? Wow, you pro-AA people are REALLY getting desperate for arguements. Can someone present any data on the boost students get for legacies? I'd really like to see it.
I have made statements talking about legacies, athletic scholarshipes, etc., in an attempt to get others to think about other systems in which nobody discusses because in my belief, it benfits those people. People will be ready to fight you over differences in opinions concerning AA, but little talk is given to legacies and other preferential treatment. Sigh, so is life.

peace
 

Gleevec

Peter, those are Cheerios
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Originally posted by mamie
good luck, with all those URM taking all the seats, you might not have a chance.:rolleyes:
Well, the Michigan cases are of special interest to us, as they will be taken up by the court in late march early april I believe. So in terms of systemic action at the legal level I believe that is being taken care of.

All I can do now is sit back and do the best on my app while the case gets decided.

And I find it hard to believe that off all the posts you chose to insult you chose mine when the crux of my argument was "you shouldnt brag about getting a 42 on the MCAT when you havent taken it again yet and you already took it and got a score that you arent willing to share"

Real classy...
 
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