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"Not taking offense when your "disadvantaged identity" is being scrutinized often perpetuates oppression of that identity."
Boom. Done.
Illegal interview question?
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Boom. Done.
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Perhaps, but when posts get wordy without actually saying much most reasonable people will stop reading.
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I tend to skim or skip the posts of regularly verbose SDNers.
Points were well-made, whether one is open to read and listen, that's their choice. Better to point out the areas where you feel clarity or insight is lacking than throw around ad hominem stuff. But whatever. This can be expected on the Internet.
Some Good Guidelines:
(For more, see doc below.)
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CONDUCTING EMPLOYMENT INTERVIEWS
This article about conducting employment interviews includes a generalized discussion of some discrimination laws. It is designed to identify key concepts and is not intended to be a comprehensive discussion of the statutes or law governing this area. These materials should not be construed as legal advice or legal opinion, which can be rendered properly only when related to specific facts.
1. How are applicants protected by discrimination laws?
a. Discrimination laws protect individuals during the application stage, as well as after they are hired. Employers must be careful not to ask questions during the interview or application process that could form the basis for a claim that an individual was not hired for a discriminatory reason.
b. Employers cannot make hiring decisions based on an applicant’s membership in the following classes:
a. Employers should not ask applicants how old they are or when they were born.
b. Employers should also avoid questions designed to elicit that information, such as asking when an applicant graduated from high school or college.
3. May I ask an applicant about her childcare arrangements?
a. Employers should avoid questions about marital status, number of children, child-rearing duties, pregnancy, etc. These issues tend to affect women more than men, but should not be asked of either male or female applicants.
b. If job-related requirements such as attendance or travel are an issue, ask questions about an applicant’s ability to meet those requirements in a gender-neutral way. For example, state that the job requires 50% travel and ask if the applicant would be able to meet that requirement.
4. Should I ask an applicant whether he or she is a U.S. citizen?
a. Employers cannot discriminate against applicants on the basis of their citizenship or national origin. Interviewers therefore should avoid questions designed to elicit information about an applicant’s country of origin or citizenship status.
b. However, employers may ask applicants about their ability to provide evidence that they are eligible to work in the United States. Questions about an applicant’s language abilities are permissible as long as the inquiries are job-related.
5. If I need to staff my business seven days a week, can I ask applicants about their religion or what religious holidays they observe?
a. Employers should not ask applicants about their religion or what religious holidays they observe. If you are concerned about staffing, explain your work schedule requirements and ask applicants if they can fulfill the requirements.
b. Applicants may wear clothing that is associated with their religion; do not ask them why they wear certain clothes or whether they are required to do so.
6. What if I’m curious about an applicant’s race or ethnicity?
a. Employers should not ask employees about their race. Often, activities or prior experiences listed on resumes may be for race-related organizations. You can ask employees job-related questions about those activities (i.e. what skills did you acquire).
b. You should avoid questions that focus on any race issues or are designed to elicit information about an applicant’s race.
7. Should an employer ask questions about an applicant’s sexual orientation?
a. Sexual orientation is a protected class under Massachusetts law, but not currently under federal law.
b. Employers with operations in Massachusetts should avoid questions that may elicit information about sexual orientation.
8. Are there any special concerns about questions concerning an applicant’s disability?
a. Yes. Disability discrimination laws place a number of explicit and implicit restrictions on employers in the hiring process.
b. What can't employers ask?
a. Even if an applicant raises one of these topics, you should not ask questions that may elicit further information.
b. As a general rule, focus your interview on describing the responsibilities, duties and performance expectations of the job.
c. You should also seek the help of your human resources representative or your legal counsel to obtain further help in conducting effective employment interviews.
Practical Management Tips … In Conducting Employment Interviews
Laws_for_Interview_Questions_98128_7-5.doc
Some Good Guidelines:
(For more, see doc below.)
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CONDUCTING EMPLOYMENT INTERVIEWS
This article about conducting employment interviews includes a generalized discussion of some discrimination laws. It is designed to identify key concepts and is not intended to be a comprehensive discussion of the statutes or law governing this area. These materials should not be construed as legal advice or legal opinion, which can be rendered properly only when related to specific facts.
1. How are applicants protected by discrimination laws?
a. Discrimination laws protect individuals during the application stage, as well as after they are hired. Employers must be careful not to ask questions during the interview or application process that could form the basis for a claim that an individual was not hired for a discriminatory reason.
b. Employers cannot make hiring decisions based on an applicant’s membership in the following classes:
- sex/gender
- race
- color
- age
- national origin/ancestry
- handicap/disability
- religious creed
- veteran status
- sexual orientation (in Massachusetts)
a. Employers should not ask applicants how old they are or when they were born.
b. Employers should also avoid questions designed to elicit that information, such as asking when an applicant graduated from high school or college.
3. May I ask an applicant about her childcare arrangements?
a. Employers should avoid questions about marital status, number of children, child-rearing duties, pregnancy, etc. These issues tend to affect women more than men, but should not be asked of either male or female applicants.
b. If job-related requirements such as attendance or travel are an issue, ask questions about an applicant’s ability to meet those requirements in a gender-neutral way. For example, state that the job requires 50% travel and ask if the applicant would be able to meet that requirement.
4. Should I ask an applicant whether he or she is a U.S. citizen?
a. Employers cannot discriminate against applicants on the basis of their citizenship or national origin. Interviewers therefore should avoid questions designed to elicit information about an applicant’s country of origin or citizenship status.
b. However, employers may ask applicants about their ability to provide evidence that they are eligible to work in the United States. Questions about an applicant’s language abilities are permissible as long as the inquiries are job-related.
5. If I need to staff my business seven days a week, can I ask applicants about their religion or what religious holidays they observe?
a. Employers should not ask applicants about their religion or what religious holidays they observe. If you are concerned about staffing, explain your work schedule requirements and ask applicants if they can fulfill the requirements.
b. Applicants may wear clothing that is associated with their religion; do not ask them why they wear certain clothes or whether they are required to do so.
6. What if I’m curious about an applicant’s race or ethnicity?
a. Employers should not ask employees about their race. Often, activities or prior experiences listed on resumes may be for race-related organizations. You can ask employees job-related questions about those activities (i.e. what skills did you acquire).
b. You should avoid questions that focus on any race issues or are designed to elicit information about an applicant’s race.
7. Should an employer ask questions about an applicant’s sexual orientation?
a. Sexual orientation is a protected class under Massachusetts law, but not currently under federal law.
b. Employers with operations in Massachusetts should avoid questions that may elicit information about sexual orientation.
8. Are there any special concerns about questions concerning an applicant’s disability?
a. Yes. Disability discrimination laws place a number of explicit and implicit restrictions on employers in the hiring process.
b. What can't employers ask?
- A potential employer may not ask an applicant (or a third party with knowledge about the applicant) about the existence, nature or severity of a disability.
- Would-be employers should avoid pre-employment inquiries about a person's health and/or disabilities, even if brought up by the applicant.
- An employer may not ask questions that are so closely related to disability that the individual's response is likely to elicit information about a disability. Thus, prospective employers may not ask whether an applicant will need reasonable accommodations to perform the essential functions of the job since such inquiries are likely to elicit information about whether the applicant is, in fact, disabled.
- Employers may not ask an applicant if he or she can perform major life functions (unless it is about the ability to perform job functions), or if he or she has previously sustained job-related injuries or has sought benefits under workers' compensation laws.
- An employer may outline the essential functions of the position (including attendance) and ask whether the applicant is capable of performing those functions, either with or without reasonable accommodation. Employers should be wary, however, that if an applicant responds by stating that he or she can perform the essential functions of the job but needs reasonable accommodations to do so, the employer should not follow up by asking what type of reasonable accommodation is needed. Such a follow-up question is likely to elicit information about the nature and severity of a disability.
- Employers are permitted to ask an applicant to describe or demonstrate how he or she would perform job-related functions, with or without reasonable accommodations, because these inquiries elicit information about an employee's ability, not information about an applicant's disability. Such a request must be made of all applicants in the same job category regardless of disability. Such a request may also be made of a specific applicant with a known disability if the employer reasonably believes that the known disability will interfere with job-related functions.
- An employer may state its attendance requirements and ask if the applicant would be able to meet those requirements either with or without reasonable accommodations. An employer may also ask about an applicant's prior attendance record. However, if the applicant reveals a significant amount of absences, an employer may not ask if these absences were due to an illness or a disability because such inquiries are likely to elicit information about the existence, nature or severity of the applicant's disability.
a. Even if an applicant raises one of these topics, you should not ask questions that may elicit further information.
b. As a general rule, focus your interview on describing the responsibilities, duties and performance expectations of the job.
c. You should also seek the help of your human resources representative or your legal counsel to obtain further help in conducting effective employment interviews.
Practical Management Tips … In Conducting Employment Interviews
- Review and update job descriptions to reflect the duties for the position.
- Be prepared for the interview and know what questions you will ask all applicants.
- Stay focused during the interview and listen carefully to what each applicant says.
- Evaluate an applicant’s resume to determine whether the skills, experience and expertise meet the requirements of the position.
- Promote discussion about the position, including specifics about the essential job functions and your expectations for performance and other goals
- Make notes about the interview without being derogatory or discriminatory.
- Consider formal training on conducting interviews that includes role-play exercises.
Laws_for_Interview_Questions_98128_7-5.doc
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Did you read to the END of the article @jl lin ? Because that's where the relevant material I was referring to was located. Sure, the 'thought police' and extreme PC issues are discussion-worthy, but the real point is that tip-toeing around these issues rather than addressing them directly is actually harmful. Pretending that women, gays, or racial minorities don't face additional challenges that straight white males don't is naive and unrealistic. Ignoring 'visible diversity' in the interview puts it in that uncomfortable "can't talk about this" zone, and increases potential awkwardness rather than decreasing it. And frankly, a potential physician needs to be able to discuss uncomfortable topics openly and honestly, which actually makes these 'EEOC-sensitive' topics relevant to performance in the job.
I disagree completely. As I stated early on:
Sure, questions can be asked more diplomatically. But potential physicians need to be on the delivering end of that diplomacy; they should not require it of others.
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If you want people to listen to you/read your posts, then make it short and to the point. I mean who actually has time or patience to read 5 paragraph long posts (perfect example on the previous page).
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I honestly just wait for @DokterMom to pull out the relevant parts of other people's posts and read from there.
WHAT CAN'T EMPLOYERS ASK IN INTERVIEWS?
In interviewing prospective employees, there are a number of things an employer is prohibited from asking the applicant. These include:
(1) his/her religion
(2) whether s/he is a member of a union
(3) whether s/he has a disability (although questions relating to ability to perform the job are permissible)
(4) questions designed to exclude employees on a prohibited discriminatory basis
(5) questions which would violate state laws preventing invasion of privacy
(6) taking a polygraph (lie detector) test (but there are exceptions to this)
(7) for a credit check, unless such information is used solely for necessary job related purposes
(8) to take a physical examination, unless all employees are required to be physically examined, the records are kept confidential and the information obtained is not used to discriminate on the basis of disability.
There is no specific prohibition of drug-testing under federal law although several states have imposed certain restrictions on the use of drug tests.
All employers are required to complete a Immigration and Naturalization Form I-9 for each new employee. This form verifies that the employer has checked documents which show a person's right to work in the U.S. The hiring of an unauthorized alien can subject an employer to fines and imprisonment.
Although an employer may not discriminate based upon gender, Title VII does not prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. However, some states and cities have laws which prohibit discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation (for example: California, Hawaii, Wisconsin and Chicago).
See above.
(1) his/her religion
(2) whether s/he is a member of a union
(3) whether s/he has a disability (although questions relating to ability to perform the job are permissible)
(4) questions designed to exclude employees on a prohibited discriminatory basis
(5) questions which would violate state laws preventing invasion of privacy
(6) taking a polygraph (lie detector) test (but there are exceptions to this)
(7) for a credit check, unless such information is used solely for necessary job related purposes
(8) to take a physical examination, unless all employees are required to be physically examined, the records are kept confidential and the information obtained is not used to discriminate on the basis of disability.
There is no specific prohibition of drug-testing under federal law although several states have imposed certain restrictions on the use of drug tests.
All employers are required to complete a Immigration and Naturalization Form I-9 for each new employee. This form verifies that the employer has checked documents which show a person's right to work in the U.S. The hiring of an unauthorized alien can subject an employer to fines and imprisonment.
Although an employer may not discriminate based upon gender, Title VII does not prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. However, some states and cities have laws which prohibit discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation (for example: California, Hawaii, Wisconsin and Chicago).
See above.
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Yes, we all know what illegal interview questions look like lol. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make...?WHAT CAN'T EMPLOYERS ASK IN INTERVIEWS?
In interviewing prospective employees, there are a number of things an employer is prohibited from asking the applicant. These include:
(1) his/her religion
(2) whether s/he is a member of a union
(3) whether s/he has a disability (although questions relating to ability to perform the job are permissible)
(4) questions designed to exclude employees on a prohibited discriminatory basis
(5) questions which would violate state laws preventing invasion of privacy
(6) taking a polygraph (lie detector) test (but there are exceptions to this)
(7) for a credit check, unless such information is used solely for necessary job related purposes
(8) to take a physical examination, unless all employees are required to be physically examined, the records are kept confidential and the information obtained is not used to discriminate on the basis of disability.
There is no specific prohibition of drug-testing under federal law although several states have imposed certain restrictions on the use of drug tests.
All employers are required to complete a Immigration and Naturalization Form I-9 for each new employee. This form verifies that the employer has checked documents which show a person's right to work in the U.S. The hiring of an unauthorized alien can subject an employer to fines and imprisonment.
Although an employer may not discriminate based upon gender, Title VII does not prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. However, some states and cities have laws which prohibit discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation (for example: California, Hawaii, Wisconsin and Chicago).
See above.
The point is, regardless of employment application versus graduate/education program application, basically the same EEOC principles apply, and they can, have, and will be upheld in court.
Pretty clear.
Also read and comprehend the FAQs. These are example of guidelines.
Example, They are saying a bad question is something like asking What year did you graduate high school, as an attempt to get to the applicant's age.
Obviously MS Adcoms have access to age. But they will potentially cause a problem for themselves if they aren't very, very smooth in terms of how they address it--IOWs, not directly. That is, don't directly address it. They'd need to find a more creative way to address it--or just try to weed out under the pretext of other things, which is something I am sure that happens.
Pretty clear.
Also read and comprehend the FAQs. These are example of guidelines.
Example, They are saying a bad question is something like asking What year did you graduate high school, as an attempt to get to the applicant's age.
Obviously MS Adcoms have access to age. But they will potentially cause a problem for themselves if they aren't very, very smooth in terms of how they address it--IOWs, not directly. That is, don't directly address it. They'd need to find a more creative way to address it--or just try to weed out under the pretext of other things, which is something I am sure that happens.
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But what are you arguing should go to court? Based on your own post, nothing was stated in the med school interview that started this thread that was illegal.
Edit: Sorry, but I still don't see anything that states that medical school interviewers are held to the same standards as interviewers for employment. I may have missed it because of the length of your post, so please let me know if that's the case.
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Can someone tldr this
I'm jk carry on
I'm jk carry on
Yes. I did state it above. The OP could form a complaint b/c the interviewer specifically brought attention to her gender and how she feels (or perhaps others as well, we don't know...get it?) it will affect her life/function as a physician--this is further implied by the shadowing of female physicians. It shouldn't matter that she is female or that she has or has not shadowed female physicians. These are irrelevant questions, and in my thinking, they were tapping close to the line to get a reaction out of her. Now, she should have played it cool and confident. At the same time, she could file a complaint re: the line of questioning and how it would affect her in terms of school admittance. If she didn't get in, they would bring up all kinds of real or pretext reasons for not admitting her, but THEY OPENED THE DOOR re: gender by brining it up in the first place. Now let a lawyer do some discovery to find if indeed this interview or adcom has asked similar lines of questions for others--yea. They could be in trouble. It's just not a good idea.
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funny, I was at dunkin donuts this morning 😀 no donut though, just coffee
Good self control. It's hard to go into DNDs and not at least get a chocolate frosted--or maybe a muffin--or bagel; although I have had much better bagels.
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meh I can't stand sweets in the morning
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LOL what?!?! How did you come to that conclusion and what is your background with law?
1. Where is the source that shows that interviewers for professional schools must abide by the same restrictions as interviewers for employment? Just curious.
2. There was no discrimination present or intent to discriminate. Find me precedent where someone was convicted because a totally legal question made the interviewee feel a certain way.
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It likely didn't matter at all. She had a female interviewer that was curious about her experiences. If I was interviewing a female, I would find it incredibly appealing that she dominated in a STEM field thus far and would be curious if she had a female mentor along the way. Get it? There was nothing wrong with the question she was asking because it didn't discriminate against her.
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It's not a big deal and definitely does not warrant a complaint. End of story!
That is your opinion. Opinions are fine. But they do not necessarily reflect how the law or the administration will evaluate the interaction. The elephant in the room is this: How does this question have ONE thing to do with her being a good MS student/physician, worthy of a seat within our institution. End of story.
Now I can't stop thinking of chocolate frosted donuts. 🙂
There it is. There is the problem right there. Back to the elephant in the room there.
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Will this applicant be able to behave professionally even when situations are uncomfortable?
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Seriously good coffee there --
The OP could FILE a complaint for any reason or no reason at all. But the potential grounds here are pretty shaky. And any medical school with ~50% women - so most of them - would have a pretty good defense against both discriminatory intent or adverse effect. Not to mention the 'relevant to doing the job' issue --
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I don't see any elephant. I see OP's opinion.
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That is far too much extrapolation that would never be punishable. As I said, a totally legal question may make someone uncomfortable but that doesn't make the question off limits.
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Since when is that a criteria for a question being OK to ask? Interviews start all the time with "tell me about yourself" or ask about your hobbies etc, pretty weak ass argument to say those are directly related to being a good physician either
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True! The interview is to get to know you as a person (and eliminate any crazies of course)
Doesn't matter. A good EEOC lawyer would say it begs the question. The elephant in the room question I referred to earlier. Whether she wins is not so much the issue; b/c it brings bad attention to the school--but it may also send a message to schools to move with extreme caution with these kinds of questions.
All a lawyer has to do is a discovery to find that this interviewer or others have posed similar questions. There goes the can of worms.
It's an unnecessary question. Her gender has absolutely NO bearing on whether she would be a good MS candidate or physician. It doesn't matter how anyone thinks how she would handle it as a female. Are we asking how, as a male, the student will handle it? Are we asking, as a gay or lesbian, how will the student handle it? Are we asking, As a Catholic or Jew, how will the student handle it?
No. This is really bad form and is problematic.
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Punishable is one thing. Fileable is another. Again, let a lawyer go through discovery and find similar questions from the adcom or that particular interviewee. Let discovery show other indicators of violations.
The line of questioning was unnecessary. Any judge that understands EEOC and accepts the spirit of it will agree. But even if it never got that far, it could and perhaps should cause a stir; b/c the LINE OF QUESTIONING IS IMPERTINENT. Are they asking males how their maleness will affect them as medical students or physicians? Are they asking gays and lesbians? Are they asking Catholics, Jews, Protestants, whomever these lines of questions?
No, actually, most definitely they are not asking those others similar lines of questions---unless the interviewee brought them up on their own.
The person just got away with it or was just ignorant and got away with it, and she's lucky the student isn't going to file a complaint, And the game will go on until someone says, "These are BS questions, and enough is enough."
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Do you really advocate filing hopeless/frivolous lawsuits to bring bad publicity to a school over a single interviewer asking a poorly worded question? I really hope this kind of SJW nonsense never gets mainstream popular
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omg logged back in again
what! I'm sure lawyers have more important stuff to do than investigate who else the interviewer asked "what's it like being a woman in a male dominated field"
back to lecture
Ummm, how many EEOC lawyers do you know? Are you sure that student doesn't have money to risk to win or lose on pursuing this?
Are you sure there are absolutely no EEOC lawyers or ACLU that won't take this up? Are you sure??????
I can't ask a nurse that is male what it is like for them entering a nurse-dominated field. If HR heard this, they'd have a fit.
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Yeah pretty sure the ACLU is not going to pick a piece of **** case like this up. What world do you live in? Asking someone what they think about the existence of sexism or gender disproportion in a field is not the same as being sexist towards them, ffs
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Anyone can file but this would never go to court lol.
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lol what.. a nurse dominated field?
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He meant female-dominated but I'm still lol'ing
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on many factors, including discovery. But, it still is a pain in the arse for the school or employer.
Why ask irrelevant questions that could end up being such a pain in the butt? They are UNNECESSARY, PERIOD.
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No need to repeat the same thing so many times. Who said the question was relevant? It's as relevant as when they ask about hobbies or talk in depth about favorite classes or something. However, it is not so insulting that anything needs to be done about it or anyone needs to feel offended.
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I'm in deeper guano. ^^ oh man... deep, deep guano.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Back OP's original question/comment:
Would the people who are thinking she should run to the EEOC and file thinking this would a better approach?
Hi, I'm Dr. XX, and specialize in WCM. Thought I'd give you a brief background on how I got here and then ask you some questions. Sound good?
See, I started med school in 19xx and finished residency in 20xx. Man those were some days - long, wearisome, can't believe I got through them. (Insert more story line here... maybe even how she felt awkward at times by comments made around her ... or something to that affect)
Have you thought about how you would handle these situations if they were to occur?
Because it's very nature impinges upon a protected status--and it is not necessarily something that would be asked of a man. I can guarantee you it would not be asked of a gay/lebian, unless they brought it up first. It's about equity under EO.
Hobbies are neutral questions. Favorite classes? Neutral questions. They are not directly related to questioning re: a protected status.
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Would they be posed to a man in a similar fashion? What about a gay person? What about a person who is Catholic or name X religion? Could they imply or strongly suggest disparate impact? That's what you have to consider.
Hobbies discuss neutral things about a person that show they have balance in their life and if the person is not just some dull, study rat. Course questions tend to reflect areas of interests that tell you the academic passions, and that speaks to the same issue of how interesting and multi-dimension the person is. Unless weaved or constructed in such as way as to put someone on the spot and open up a bag of worms about a particular protected status, they are benign and wouldn't impact, necessarily, whether a person is accepted based on one of the protected statuses.
Back to John Legend, other music, and research. 🙂
Back to John Legend, other music, and research. 🙂
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Dude you are over the top here without any precedent to support you.
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What did I just read? Wow.
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I never said that what Axle is saying isn't understandable, or even that it isn't easy to understand. Perhaps your reading comprehension fails you. What I'm saying is that people in the medical world use (medically) simple and concise language that cuts straight to the point for a reason. Better to be blunt and say exactly what you mean than sugar-coat something and potentially lack clarity.
You're right, it is a discussion forum. A medical forum, in which most of the users are either physicians or training to be one. This is not a forum or sub-forum about social policy or politics. It is about medicine. Even if this thread touches on social concepts, this is still a medical site and people will talk like healthcare professionals. It also has nothing to do with the length of this individual's posts, but rather the validity of the content and context.
Once again, why do you think asking an individual how they would handle discriminatory marks towards them to be unnecessary? To use your example, I would have no problem whatsoever if I were a male (which I am) entering nursing and my interviewer asked me how I would handle a patient making discriminatory marks for being a male nurse. Asking an individual how they would handle a difficult situation is not irrelevant imo, and I'd even go far enough to say it would be stupid not to ask a question that relates to professionalism.
Hobbies also tell an interviewer nothing about how the candidate would likely handle a difficult situation or a specific problem. These questions are meaningless beyond answering "do you have a life other than this job/position". Also, are you really suggesting that being a woman is a 'protected status'? If so, wow. Just wow.
