I'm starting to get really scared

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agree w/Darth's last comment.
It seems like the PD already knows you so you don't want to become a pest, but one more short meeting or phone call would probably be OK. You want them to know where you stand (i.e. would love to get in their program) but without looking pushy or pathetic.
 
Hi there,

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to give me advice and offered help with my residency application. I've been working on an email that I am going to send to the faculty who wrote me a very strong LOR asking for some additional help with getting my application noticed. Here is the draft. Any comments or suggestions? Does it sound too needy, pushy or pathetic?😳


You can reply here or PM me.

Thanks again.

*******************************************************

Dear Dr. S and Dr. C,

Greetings from Maine! I just finished my FM rotation last Friday and I start my GI rotation on Monday. That will be my final rotation. I graduate at the end of the month, so I'm really excited about that!

Unfortunately, I haven't had much success with my residency applications for Pediatrics. I applied to 21 mostly community based programs, and I've only had one interview so far (at Hospital X). I think the other programs are not even reading any of my application, including my LORs and Personal Statement, because I am getting screened out very early on in the process because of a prior failure on USMLE Step 1 (I passed it on my second attempt). I have already passed Step 2 CK (on my first attempt) and I am awaiting the results of my CS retake, which will be released on December 3rd.

The interview I had at Hospital X went really well. Both Dr. K and Dr. H commented on the strength of the letter both of you wrote to support my application for residency. Thank you very much!

I would really appreciate it if there is anything you can do to get programs to at least take a look at my residency application beyond my board scores. If you know of any programs where you think I should apply, or if you want to know where I have applied already, please let me know. I will be happy to provide you with that, or any other information.

I realize that you have already supported my application by writing a very strong letter of recommendation, but I am asking for some extra help to get noticed.

Attached is a copy of my Personal Statement.

Thank You

Sincerely,

Superoxide
AAMC ID#12345678
 
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Just from a first read-through, the tone of the letter is too informal - professional letters shouldn't include exclamation points.

Also, it's not "atleast," it's "at least."
 
Just from a first read-through, the tone of the letter is too informal - professional letters shouldn't include exclamation points.

Also, it's not "atleast," it's "at least."

I was thinking that as well, but the faculty were very informal. They introduced themselves to me by their first names and I was always on a first name basis with them. Do you still think I should change it?

Thanks for the correction!
 
If you were on a first name basis with your faculty, I think it's fine. But I'm rather informal myself.

I'd recommend emailing them rather than calling. This gives the faculty some time to think it over, rather than being put right on the spot.

You might want to include a phone number to call you back at, if they want to discuss.
 
Of course, the culture in peds is rather informal (more so, I'd venture to say, than internal medicine or surgery, from which our previous august posters hail).
 
I like it, though agree you could think about taking out the exclamation point in the first paragraph. It's really no big deal. Otherwise I think it's a great note...it gets your point across and it's bried and to the point.
I think it's fine to email instead of call...agree that then you aren't putting them on the spot. I would definitely include your phone number or pager where you can be reached...they'll probably call you back then.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I removed the ! and added my phone number. Just sent it a few seconds back. Let's see what happens.

Thanks again.
 
Okay...It's been almost two weeks since I sent the above email and no response yet!🙁

What should I do now? Should I wait? Should I call them?

Not sure what the etiquette is when it comes to things like this. I don't want to be pushy and screw it up even more.

I applied to 10 FM programs today and emailed the PDs as well explaining the reason for my late application. Three minutes after I submitted my application on ERAS, I already had my first FM rejection! 🙄

This is looking more and more grim by the minute.
 
Oh dear. I would take that to mean the person you emailed isn't willing to make calls for you, unfortunately.

I'm sure the FM rejection was an automatic 'you didn't get past the filter'-- I wouldn't let it bother you.

Out of curiosity, have you applied in Canada? Do you have a very good reason for wanting to train in the States?

Perhaps give the PCs (not the PDs) of your family medicine and remaining peds programs a call. Many of the all-FMG programs would love someone personable, who speaks English fluently, and who could "relate to the patient population well," and that's precisely the sort of thing you could demonstrate over the phone. Likewise, it might be worth contacting some current residents in the program.

I hate to kick you when you're down, but you are as you know a marginable candidate, and you need to do something to distinguish yourself from the masses. Making yourself known to the programs-- perhaps even visiting local ones on non-interview days-- might be one good way to do that.
 
Well, we don't know for SURE that the faculty are not willing to make any phone calls for him. Yes, it looks bad, but faculty are just really busy. They may have forgotten, or they may have actually called and/or emailed someone but then they didn't let the OP know about it. Academic faculty members are just incredibly busy. I don't think that one additional phone call (say, to the 1 or 2 faculty you felt you have the best connection with) would be out of line.

You could call and say, "Hi, I'm superoxide, you may remember me from my peds rotation last summer, and I know that I told you I'm not getting a whole lot of interviews...do you have any feedback on my application and what would you suggest that someone like me, who has a lot of enthusiasm for pediatrics but has had a marginal performance on the USMLE, should do at this point in the application cycle?". If they honestly think your chances are poor this year, then perhaps you could get a job for 1.5 years and then plan to start peds residency the next year...I mean if you match this year then OK, but if you don't you'd need to start working on making your app. better for the next year.

At this point I think you need to go for any residency position that is either peds or fp. Honestly, it won't matter much when you are in practice which one you are...if you like treating kids and adolescents, then you can end up seeing more of them in your practice, particularly if you are in with a group. Also, urgent care centers and doc-in-the-box type places love family docs and med/peds docs, since they can see whatever patients walks in the door (i.e. children or adults). So fp honestly isn't that bad...it's just a hard residency b/c you have to try to "know everything". Job prospects are good, though.

One thing that may be hurting you is the lack of a passing step2CK on your transcript. So I wouldn't give up yet...you might get interviews after the Step2CK score comes out. Programs may just not want to take a chance on your right now. They might reconsider after 12/1 if you do indeed pass the Step2CK.

You say that you are graduating in a couple of months. If I were you, I would try to make plans for what you are going to do after graduation. Perhaps you could get some sort of job doing pediatrics research (not sure what kind of research pediatricians do...but you could check with some of your local teaching hospitals/medical centers).

Make sure all your visa issues, ECFMG certification, etc. are taken care of if you are not a US citizen (are you Canadian?).

I would also suggest registering with FindAresident on the NRMP web site. It only costs $70 or so for a 1 year subscription if you are already in the Match. There are commonly open spots in fp and IM on there, and occasionally pediatrics. These are outside-the-match spots. You don't have to join now, but if not getting a lot more interviews in a couple of months from now, I'd consider it.
 
Okay...It's been almost two weeks since I sent the above email and no response yet!🙁

What should I do now? Should I wait? Should I call them?

Not sure what the etiquette is when it comes to things like this. I don't want to be pushy and screw it up even more.

I applied to 10 FM programs today and emailed the PDs as well explaining the reason for my late application. Three minutes after I submitted my application on ERAS, I already had my first FM rejection! 🙄

This is looking more and more grim by the minute.

I did not read your planned email message to garner support for residency application. Upon reading this message I found it to be way too vague in terms of the help you need. The tone doesn't sound too good to me either, it almost sounds manic and generalized. I realized that you calmly thought it out, but it doesn't sound upon a first reading like a lot of thought was put into it. Mostly because you are asking for help getting into residency programs that you don't even name!

IMHO, the letter was too long and it took me a bit to figure out what you wanted, the beginning part was cute, but I don't think that is the right tone when asking for this level of help. If I was a faculty who wrote you the LOR I really wouldn't know where to start. You have to make it easy for people to help you.

If you had included a list of where you applied then MAYBE your letter writer could tell you what he/she knows of that program and how they evaluate applicants, i.e. "Email them again about doing pediatric residency there, they like the interested applicant."

There is one comment that sounds especially bad when you say you want programs to look at your application beyond your step score/failure. You are sort of implying that no residency program is looking at your whole application, which may be true for some but not for ALL residency programs so this makes you look like you are angry and blowing off steam and NOT looking for help and that you are accussing residency programs of not looking past the numbers.

You haven't said what your clinical evaluations during 3rd and 4th year are . . . I am assuming honors in pediatrics, but if that is not the case then maybe you have more than one hit against you.

When writing such as letter keep it short, and sweet. Remember, attendings are busy and don't want to take 30-45 minutes to review your personal statements and figure out where you should apply. Figuring out which programs to apply to is usually up to the applicant.

Say there is a program X where you were rejected for interview. I would call them up and ask them to review your application again nicely and point out how you would really like to go there for residency. And if they don't give you an interview then again I would ask politey for information as to why you were rejected. They could tell you that there was some problem in your application that you weren't aware about.

In the end, I would stand by my original advice that you should apply to more/different range of pediatric programs. Many pediatric programs take primarly US senior with first passes on their boards, and wouldn't take an IMG, especially an IMG who failed step 1 . . . Is your Step 2 > 85, which is about average?? This could help if it is.

In terms of faculty help I would make a phone call or send a more detailed and short email like:

Dear Dr. Peds,

I was a fourth year student in your pediatrics GI elective last summer. I applied to the following pediatric residency programs via ERAS:

Strawberry Tongue University Pediatric Residency
Tick Peds Residency in Lime Conneticut
Whooping Cough Peds residency
HIB Peds Residency

But was sadly rejected for interview at these institutions. Would calling the program director and asking for my ERAS application to be re-reviewed be helpful?

I would sincerely appreciate any advice you have to offer me,

Superoxide

Hopefully you will be able to figure out on your own what the noncompetitive peds programs are and be able to apply to them on your own without asking a faculty member to tell you this as this sounds desperate in a way.
 
Oh dear. I would take that to mean the person you emailed isn't willing to make calls for you, unfortunately.

I'm sure the FM rejection was an automatic 'you didn't get past the filter'-- I wouldn't let it bother you.

Out of curiosity, have you applied in Canada? Do you have a very good reason for wanting to train in the States?

Perhaps give the PCs (not the PDs) of your family medicine and remaining peds programs a call. Many of the all-FMG programs would love someone personable, who speaks English fluently, and who could "relate to the patient population well," and that's precisely the sort of thing you could demonstrate over the phone. Likewise, it might be worth contacting some current residents in the program.

I hate to kick you when you're down, but you are as you know a marginable candidate, and you need to do something to distinguish yourself from the masses. Making yourself known to the programs-- perhaps even visiting local ones on non-interview days-- might be one good way to do that.

Not sure what to make of the silent treatment I've received. They were very willing to help when I finished my elective. As I mentioned before they were saying things like: "We would like to see you work here next year" etc etc. I've already mentioned the strong LoR they wrote. I doubt that they were just stringing me along all this time. Both faculty are extremely well respected at the hospital and I think they would not do something like that. I'm confused.

I haven't applied in Canada because in order for IMGs to apply, you have to have passed the MCCEE (Medical College of Canada Evaluating Exam). It's similar to USMLE Step 2 CK in content. I would have taken it at the same time I took CK, but I didn't have enough money to pay for both exams. The MCCEE costs about CDN$1000. Since I was focusing on applying in the US, I chose to take CK instead. The situation in Canada is not too good either for IMGs. Way too many applicants and not enough spots, although it is possible. There have been a few graduates from my school and other Caribbean schools who have matched into FM and psych in Canada.

I really don't care whether I work in Canada or the U.S or any other country for that matter. I just want to get a job (I know, I know...I'm asking for a lot there!) I don't want to think that I spent 6 years of my life and >$150,000 to end up with nothing.
 
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I agree. Both faculty are extremely busy. It took them a month after I finished the elective to get my LoR done. I had to remind them every week. One of them (the director of the department) travels quite a bit as well. So it could be that they forgot about it.

I'm also willing to do ANY residency at this point. As I've mentioned before I want to do peds, but I'll do FM. I think FM is a very hard residency. I just finished my FM rotation a few weeks back and it's tough. You literally have to know everything!! FM people have my respect. It's a shame that it is not getting the compensation and respect it deserves.

I have already passed my CK with a low score (188/77 but a first attempt pass) I think you meant CS? That score is being released on December 3rd.

If I pass my CS retake, I will be ECFMG certified by January 2009. That will surely help. In case I don't get into anything, I'm going to take Step 3 next year. Also will try to do some research/observerships just to "stay in the system". I'm a Canadian citizen so I'll need a visa (most likely J1) to work in the U.S. In order to get a J1 I need to pass the MCCEE. I was going to take in March of next year, so I could start residency in July, but looks like I'm not likely to match into anything this time around.

Thanks for all the tips.

**THANKS TO EVERYONE HERE WHO HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO POST. IT'S MUCH APPRECIATED**


Well, we don't know for SURE that the faculty are not willing to make any phone calls for him. Yes, it looks bad, but faculty are just really busy. They may have forgotten, or they may have actually called and/or emailed someone but then they didn't let the OP know about it. Academic faculty members are just incredibly busy. I don't think that one additional phone call (say, to the 1 or 2 faculty you felt you have the best connection with) would be out of line.

You could call and say, "Hi, I'm superoxide, you may remember me from my peds rotation last summer, and I know that I told you I'm not getting a whole lot of interviews...do you have any feedback on my application and what would you suggest that someone like me, who has a lot of enthusiasm for pediatrics but has had a marginal performance on the USMLE, should do at this point in the application cycle?". If they honestly think your chances are poor this year, then perhaps you could get a job for 1.5 years and then plan to start peds residency the next year...I mean if you match this year then OK, but if you don't you'd need to start working on making your app. better for the next year.

At this point I think you need to go for any residency position that is either peds or fp. Honestly, it won't matter much when you are in practice which one you are...if you like treating kids and adolescents, then you can end up seeing more of them in your practice, particularly if you are in with a group. Also, urgent care centers and doc-in-the-box type places love family docs and med/peds docs, since they can see whatever patients walks in the door (i.e. children or adults). So fp honestly isn't that bad...it's just a hard residency b/c you have to try to "know everything". Job prospects are good, though.

One thing that may be hurting you is the lack of a passing step2CK on your transcript. So I wouldn't give up yet...you might get interviews after the Step2CK score comes out. Programs may just not want to take a chance on your right now. They might reconsider after 12/1 if you do indeed pass the Step2CK.

You say that you are graduating in a couple of months. If I were you, I would try to make plans for what you are going to do after graduation. Perhaps you could get some sort of job doing pediatrics research (not sure what kind of research pediatricians do...but you could check with some of your local teaching hospitals/medical centers).

Make sure all your visa issues, ECFMG certification, etc. are taken care of if you are not a US citizen (are you Canadian?).

I would also suggest registering with FindAresident on the NRMP web site. It only costs $70 or so for a 1 year subscription if you are already in the Match. There are commonly open spots in fp and IM on there, and occasionally pediatrics. These are outside-the-match spots. You don't have to join now, but if not getting a lot more interviews in a couple of months from now, I'd consider it.
 
Hi Darth,

I wasn't sure how to write the letter. I actually spent a few hours coming up with what I did and posted it on here to make sure it was OK. It seemed that overall it was fine. As I mentioned before, I had a very casual relationship with them (we were on a first name basis), hence the casual tone at the beginning of the letter.

Not sure what to think of "accussing residency programs of not looking past the numbers". You're correct that this might not be true for all programs, but I'm sure it's true for most. I really don't think it has an "accussatory" tone to it, but I can see how it could be read that way.

I did very well in my core pediatrics rotation. I was only one of four students, out of a total class of about 25 students who got an "A" in the rotation. I did extra calls, an extra presentation and got excellent evaluations from faculty. Same goes for my pediatric electives.

Now looking back, attaching my PS was probably not the best thing to do. They probably are not going to read it. The reasoning behind it was that they would get a better idea of what my perspective of pediatrics is, my personal experiences and future goals. (I want to work in pediatric global health, so a lot of my PS focused on my international travels/experiences).

I haven't called any of the programs that rejected me. You're right that there might be something else wrong with my application that I am unaware of.

I only applied to programs where I met all their requirements. If they needed a first time pass, I didn't apply. If they needed applicants to be ECFMG certified at the time of application I didn't apply. Most of the programs I applied to (and rejected by) are IMG friendly, low/medium tier community based programs. That's what's concerning me. I know which ones are the less desirable ones already. But if I'm getting rejected by these places, where else do I go?

It's good to see what I wrote before from a different perspective, so thanks a lot for your message and tips.


I did not read your planned email message to garner support for residency application. Upon reading this message I found it to be way too vague in terms of the help you need. The tone doesn't sound too good to me either, it almost sounds manic and generalized. I realized that you calmly thought it out, but it doesn't sound upon a first reading like a lot of thought was put into it. Mostly because you are asking for help getting into residency programs that you don't even name!

IMHO, the letter was too long and it took me a bit to figure out what you wanted, the beginning part was cute, but I don't think that is the right tone when asking for this level of help. If I was a faculty who wrote you the LOR I really wouldn't know where to start. You have to make it easy for people to help you.

If you had included a list of where you applied then MAYBE your letter writer could tell you what he/she knows of that program and how they evaluate applicants, i.e. "Email them again about doing pediatric residency there, they like the interested applicant."

There is one comment that sounds especially bad when you say you want programs to look at your application beyond your step score/failure. You are sort of implying that no residency program is looking at your whole application, which may be true for some but not for ALL residency programs so this makes you look like you are angry and blowing off steam and NOT looking for help and that you are accussing residency programs of not looking past the numbers.

You haven't said what your clinical evaluations during 3rd and 4th year are . . . I am assuming honors in pediatrics, but if that is not the case then maybe you have more than one hit against you.

When writing such as letter keep it short, and sweet. Remember, attendings are busy and don't want to take 30-45 minutes to review your personal statements and figure out where you should apply. Figuring out which programs to apply to is usually up to the applicant.

Say there is a program X where you were rejected for interview. I would call them up and ask them to review your application again nicely and point out how you would really like to go there for residency. And if they don't give you an interview then again I would ask politey for information as to why you were rejected. They could tell you that there was some problem in your application that you weren't aware about.

In the end, I would stand by my original advice that you should apply to more/different range of pediatric programs. Many pediatric programs take primarly US senior with first passes on their boards, and wouldn't take an IMG, especially an IMG who failed step 1 . . . Is your Step 2 > 85, which is about average?? This could help if it is.

In terms of faculty help I would make a phone call or send a more detailed and short email like:

Dear Dr. Peds,

I was a fourth year student in your pediatrics GI elective last summer. I applied to the following pediatric residency programs via ERAS:

Strawberry Tongue University Pediatric Residency
Tick Peds Residency in Lime Conneticut
Whooping Cough Peds residency
HIB Peds Residency

But was sadly rejected for interview at these institutions. Would calling the program director and asking for my ERAS application to be re-reviewed be helpful?

I would sincerely appreciate any advice you have to offer me,

Superoxide

Hopefully you will be able to figure out on your own what the noncompetitive peds programs are and be able to apply to them on your own without asking a faculty member to tell you this as this sounds desperate in a way.
 
Superoxide, I think Darth and others were spot-on that you really have nothing to lose by making one more, much more direct, request for help.

What did you think about my suggestions of contacting programs and their residents directly?
 
Superoxide, I think Darth and others were spot-on that you really have nothing to lose by making one more, much more direct, request for help.

What did you think about my suggestions of contacting programs and their residents directly?

I'm going to contact the faculty again next week for sure. I don't want to leave this hanging. Even if it's not a positive response, atleast I'll have an answer.

I've been in touch with one of the residents at the program I interviewed at. Mostly it's been casual conversation. I did mention in my last email that I'd like to match at that hospital.

I also sent an email a few weeks back to the chief resident. During the interview I asked him a question about the program and he ddin't have an answer right away. He told me he'll look into it and gave me his email address to keep in touch with him about that. So I emailed him but I haven't heard from him yet (It's been over a month).

This really sucks. I've gone through rough times before, but I've never felt this down and hopeless in my whole life.
 
Hi Darth,

I wasn't sure how to write the letter. I actually spent a few hours coming up with what I did and posted it on here to make sure it was OK. It seemed that overall it was fine. As I mentioned before, I had a very casual relationship with them (we were on a first name basis), hence the casual tone at the beginning of the letter.

Not sure what to think of "accussing residency programs of not looking past the numbers". You're correct that this might not be true for all programs, but I'm sure it's true for most. I really don't think it has an "accussatory" tone to it, but I can see how it could be read that way.

I did very well in my core pediatrics rotation. I was only one of four students, out of a total class of about 25 students who got an "A" in the rotation. I did extra calls, an extra presentation and got excellent evaluations from faculty. Same goes for my pediatric electives.

Now looking back, attaching my PS was probably not the best thing to do. They probably are not going to read it. The reasoning behind it was that they would get a better idea of what my perspective of pediatrics is, my personal experiences and future goals. (I want to work in pediatric global health, so a lot of my PS focused on my international travels/experiences).

I haven't called any of the programs that rejected me. You're right that there might be something else wrong with my application that I am unaware of.

I only applied to programs where I met all their requirements. If they needed a first time pass, I didn't apply. If they needed applicants to be ECFMG certified at the time of application I didn't apply. Most of the programs I applied to (and rejected by) are IMG friendly, low/medium tier community based programs. That's what's concerning me. I know which ones are the less desirable ones already. But if I'm getting rejected by these places, where else do I go?

It's good to see what I wrote before from a different perspective, so thanks a lot for your message and tips.

I would think that most Pediatric programs do look at the whole picture, i.e. beyond the step 1 failure and then make a decision to interview or not. Pediatrics is pretty competitive compared to family practice and internal medicine, so maybe a lot of US seniors are applying for pediatrics this year which would decrease your chances as an IMG. Most IMGs applying for moderately competitive specialties such as Pediatrics are applying to perhaps 100 programs and interviewing at maybe 10-25 places. This is just the reality of applying as an IMG. A lot of IMGs interested in pediatrics are going into Family Practice these days as both allow you to see children.

Nobody would be surprised if you only applied to 20 places and got 1-2 interviews, this is not enough if you failed Step 1. I feel that you should have applied to 110+ pediatrics programs. Your faculty attendings would tell you perhaps the same thing if they evaluated your whole situation. Some pediatric programs don't state that they have a problem with someone who failed Step 1, but if the season is competitive then they will be less inclined to interview you. You may have unluckily applied to more difficult programs to get into if you failed Step 1 just by chance. There ARE some pediatric residency programs that will interview you, but you only know when you apply.

If I failed Step 1 I would have applied to more than 20 programs for sure. I am sorry about your financial situation, but realize that next year you may have to apply for many more programs to match if you don't match this year.

Pediatrics is an intellectual specialty more than even family practice as the pediatric board is one of the hardest board exams, more so than internal medicine, and has a higher failure rate than most. So yeah, some pediatric programs will have a bias against students who don't do well on the boards, more so than in some internal medicine programs and family medicine programs.
 
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Hi Darth,

I wasn't sure how to write the letter. I actually spent a few hours coming up with what I did and posted it on here to make sure it was OK. It seemed that overall it was fine. As I mentioned before, I had a very casual relationship with them (we were on a first name basis), hence the casual tone at the beginning of the letter.

Some attendings ask residents and students to call them by their first name in more close-knit ward groups to facilitate group functioning. However, any "casualness" begins and ends there. Most such attendings who go by their first name are still very strict in terms of interaction with residents and students and know their place on the totem pole and a first name basis isn't an invitation to have casual conversations with them about their family, career plans, etc . . .

Even so, when on a first name basis with an attending assume that you still need to be on a formal basis with them, and they are not your "friends" even if they want their first name used. Most attendings I think who use their first name with residents do it so they will be more liked and respected by residents and students, not that they want to have a more casual basis of interaction with residents and students and probably could care less if you called them Dr. So and So versus Bob or Jane.

Imagine you are touring a hospital with the C.E.O. of the hospital, perhaps as a potential investor or even philantropic contributor. He hugs you and asks you to, "Please! Call me Bob!" He doesn't necessarily want to have a casual relationship with you and won't invite you to his son's birthday party on the weekend. He really doesn't want to get to know you better at this point, but wants you to feel comfortable around him. Same thing with attendings.

This may be why you plans to use your "connections" have not worked as you may not have the special relationship you think you have with the attendings you know. If they ask everybody to call them on a first-name basis then it means nothing.

Personally, I am suspicious of attendings who ask students/residents to call them by their first name as it is disconcerting a bit, and usually they are the ones who you won't form a strong personal or mentor type relationship. All of my mentors and attendings with which I feel I have a more personal connection I have always called by their professiona title, i.e. Dr. Jones, although they respect me and I likewise.

It is more than a little phony in my mind to meet an overly nice attending who wants a first name basis after one rotation. Maybe in the past they didn't have good interactions with residents and students and so are trying to force a closeness that isn't there.
 
I think Darth was correct in saying that applying to 20 peds programs was not really enough. Peds doesn't have as many spots as IM and fp, and that does make it more competitive. I do think you should have applied to a lot more...but 20/20 hindsight is perfect. I don't think you are totally hosed yet for this year...you did have that 1 interview and people DO match with just 1 interview. Plus I'm assuming you still have some active application (i.e. not rejected from everywhere you've applied).

I think Darth is probably reading a bit too much into the whole situation with your attendings. I think they just haven't gotten back to you because of being busy, and/or they might think that there isn't much they can do to help you at this point. I doubt that they don't really like you, or they wouldn't have given you an honors grade if only 4/24 people got one.
I do think following up with these faculty (not to the point of being pushy and calling them every day, though) once more is not at all out of line. Some faculty do want to help students and residents, and if nothing else they can offer you advice about what to do. You can present it as, "I realize that having low Step scores and being an IMG is a problem in my application...is there anything else you think I can do at this point to improve my application? Do you think it would be advisable for me to call up the programs I haven't heard back from yet? Do you think that doing a year or 18 months of pediatrics research would help my application if I end up not matching and have to apply again next year?".

I think the problem is totally your Step scores, plus probably the fact that you haven't yet passed the Step2 CK. Also not being an IMG or program director, I'm not sure how much it matters not to have ECFMG certification yet. But you will have fixed the 2 problems of not having passed the Step2CK and not being ECFMG certified in a month or so.

Darth's point about the peds board exam being hard may be very important. I didn't know it is known for being hard...the IM one isn't that hard and the pass rate I think is 92-93% on the first try. If the peds programs are very nervous about people not passing the boards at the end of their 3 years, that may be another reason you're having a hard time getting interviews.

I agree with your plan about what to do in case you don't match this year. I would try to take Step 3 either next spring or next summer. You need to make sure that you do OK on it...the higher score, the better. I think you can do better than you did on Steps I/II, based on your posts on here and your performance on your peds clerkship. If you could get 220's then you could tell everyone that you have an upward trend in your scores. I agree with taking steps to get eligible for the Canadian match also, though I am unfamiliar with it. I think you need to start networking to see if you can get a research job doing pediatrics related stuff...or a job in a pediatric hospital.
 
I think the problem is totally your Step scores, plus probably the fact that you haven't yet passed the Step2 CK.
. . . I didn't know it is known for being hard...the IM one isn't that hard and the pass rate I think is 92-93% on the first try. If the peds programs are very nervous about people not passing the boards at the end of their 3 years, that may be another reason you're having a hard time getting interviews.

Looking at the OP, it appears that superoxide got a 188/77 on Step 2 CK which is very borderline pass as I guess 75 is a pass. . . Realize that Step 2 CK is also broken down into various subjects, so if Superoxide did poorer in the Pediatrics part of Step 2 CK then a PD could reasonably conclude that he/she did not pass the Pediatrics part of the examination, and would be at a significant knowledge deficit when starting residency. This in conjunction with the Step 1 looks not so good, i.e. worse than a bad day and more like not studying enough or went to a medical school with poor preparation or a combination of things. This in of itself isn't fatal, but a good percentage of pediatric residency programs would pass on this application. While more solid applicants with average Step 1 around 85, 216 or so and equivalent Step 2 CK scores can get by with 20 or 30 applications, that is not the case here.

The 25th percentile for matched US seniors in Step 1 is 203 and for IMGs is 195, so you can see that a Step 1 below 195 hurts. Even the median Step 1 for IMGs who did not match in Pediatrics was 198, so most people who did not match in Pediatrics who were IMGs had Step 1 scores above Superoxide's Step 1 score. Even the median Step 2 score for IMGs who did not match was 200, which is well above Superoxide's Step 2 score. So Superoxide needs something else to help him/her match, which may include research and/or more clinical experience if he/she fails to match this year.

I think also that Superoxide failed Step 2 CS will hurt as if he/she fails it again then he/she can't go through the match and will be automatically withdrawn. So, maybe this is the big problem that residency programs have with her/his application.

I think that family practice has folks with lower step scores matching, so this seems to be at least another alternative for superoxide.

I think that superoxide's best bet would be to pass Step 2 CS if not already done, and then perhaps try to redeem him/herself with blowing away Step 3, i.e. showing that he/she can do better than borderline pass/fail on the steps. . . Even without Step 3, if Superoxide get ECFMG certified and applies again next year to maybe even just 50 programs then he/she will get a very pleasant number of interviews.

The pass rate for Peds boards is much lower than for the IM boards, around 81% first time pass rate! If Superoxide's Pediatric subsection of Step 2 was below the average of all the subsections then he/she would really have a lot of ground to make up before passing this examination.

Honestly, if Canadian programs don't look at/require USMLEs then if I were Superoxide I would take the canadian licensing exams (after studying hard) and get a great score and look at Canada for a pediatric residency which would be easier then trying to get into a pediatric residency with multiple fails and very low score in the US currently.
 
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Darth, I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong here. Academic pediatricians at a stand-alone children's hospital *will* be decently well-known, and their opinion counts enormously.


. . . me snotty top 10. I'm telling you it's the way things really work.

I didn't know Columbia (tongue in cheek) was a Top Ten medical school when I first read your post, . . . maybe number 19th as according to SDN as I looked it up, I had no idea it was even ranked that high! Congrats for just squeezing in at the bottom of the top 20 list!

I almost interviewed there when I applied for residency, turned it down though. Regardless, connections are a tricky thing to navigate for IMGs, especially with board score problems, which is why I didn't think connections would help that much here. It is important to give advice specific to a poster's situation, which might not apply to a US grad with decent board score. I am glad that I have had the opportunity to work with attendings at an institution at the top of the top five medical school list!😛
 
The idea of applying to FM/IM is good.The low scores and failures are hard to look past. Hopefully something will happen in this years match.
If not though it would be prudent to look for work. Getting a us job that sponsors a visa might be problematic. If your parents live near one of the teaching hospitals, I think your best bet would be to try to find a research job at one of those places, make some connections, pass the mccee and try your luck with the canadian match. In the mean time you could pay down some debt and save some $ for next year's match.
 
I didn't know Columbia (tongue in cheek) was a Top Ten medical school when I first read your post, . . . maybe number 19th as according to SDN as I looked it up, I had no idea it was even ranked that high! Congrats for just squeezing in at the bottom of the top 20 list!

I almost interviewed there when I applied for residency, turned it down though. Regardless, connections are a tricky thing to navigate for IMGs, especially with board score problems, which is why I didn't think connections would help that much here. It is important to give advice specific to a poster's situation, which might not apply to a US grad with decent board score. I am glad that I have had the opportunity to work with attendings at an institution at the top of the top five medical school list!😛


What on earth is the point of this post? Whipping it out in its five-inch glory doesn't do much to help superoxide.
 
Take a private loan, even if you need a cosigner. Then expand you application and have a backup plan such as Family which may be easier to get into. Only having 1 interview is very bad odds when it comes to match day.
 
Looking at the OP, it appears that superoxide got a 188/77 on Step 2 CK which is very borderline pass as I guess 75 is a pass. . . Realize that Step 2 CK is also broken down into various subjects, so if Superoxide did poorer in the Pediatrics part of Step 2 CK then a PD could reasonably conclude that he/she did not pass the Pediatrics part of the examination, and would be at a significant knowledge deficit when starting residency. This in conjunction with the Step 1 looks not so good, i.e. worse than a bad day and more like not studying enough or went to a medical school with poor preparation or a combination of things. This in of itself isn't fatal, but a good percentage of pediatric residency programs would pass on this application. While more solid applicants with average Step 1 around 85, 216 or so and equivalent Step 2 CK scores can get by with 20 or 30 applications, that is not the case here.

The 25th percentile for matched US seniors in Step 1 is 203 and for IMGs is 195, so you can see that a Step 1 below 195 hurts. Even the median Step 1 for IMGs who did not match in Pediatrics was 198, so most people who did not match in Pediatrics who were IMGs had Step 1 scores above Superoxide's Step 1 score. Even the median Step 2 score for IMGs who did not match was 200, which is well above Superoxide's Step 2 score. So Superoxide needs something else to help him/her match, which may include research and/or more clinical experience if he/she fails to match this year.

I think also that Superoxide failed Step 2 CS will hurt as if he/she fails it again then he/she can't go through the match and will be automatically withdrawn. So, maybe this is the big problem that residency programs have with her/his application.

I think that family practice has folks with lower step scores matching, so this seems to be at least another alternative for superoxide.

I think that superoxide's best bet would be to pass Step 2 CS if not already done, and then perhaps try to redeem him/herself with blowing away Step 3, i.e. showing that he/she can do better than borderline pass/fail on the steps. . . Even without Step 3, if Superoxide get ECFMG certified and applies again next year to maybe even just 50 programs then he/she will get a very pleasant number of interviews.

The pass rate for Peds boards is much lower than for the IM boards, around 81% first time pass rate! If Superoxide's Pediatric subsection of Step 2 was below the average of all the subsections then he/she would really have a lot of ground to make up before passing this examination.

Honestly, if Canadian programs don't look at/require USMLEs then if I were Superoxide I would take the canadian licensing exams (after studying hard) and get a great score and look at Canada for a pediatric residency which would be easier then trying to get into a pediatric residency with multiple fails and very low score in the US currently.

Darth, any subsections of the Step 2 (or step 1, for that matter) score are only reported to the examinee. They are not released to any third party.
 
Some attendings ask residents and students to call them by their first name in more close-knit ward groups to facilitate group functioning. However, any "casualness" begins and ends there. Most such attendings who go by their first name are still very strict in terms of interaction with residents and students and know their place on the totem pole and a first name basis isn't an invitation to have casual conversations with them about their family, career plans, etc . . .

Even so, when on a first name basis with an attending assume that you still need to be on a formal basis with them, and they are not your "friends" even if they want their first name used. Most attendings I think who use their first name with residents do it so they will be more liked and respected by residents and students, not that they want to have a more casual basis of interaction with residents and students and probably could care less if you called them Dr. So and So versus Bob or Jane.

Imagine you are touring a hospital with the C.E.O. of the hospital, perhaps as a potential investor or even philantropic contributor. He hugs you and asks you to, "Please! Call me Bob!" He doesn't necessarily want to have a casual relationship with you and won't invite you to his son's birthday party on the weekend. He really doesn't want to get to know you better at this point, but wants you to feel comfortable around him. Same thing with attendings.

This may be why you plans to use your "connections" have not worked as you may not have the special relationship you think you have with the attendings you know. If they ask everybody to call them on a first-name basis then it means nothing.

Personally, I am suspicious of attendings who ask students/residents to call them by their first name as it is disconcerting a bit, and usually they are the ones who you won't form a strong personal or mentor type relationship. All of my mentors and attendings with which I feel I have a more personal connection I have always called by their professiona title, i.e. Dr. Jones, although they respect me and I likewise.

It is more than a little phony in my mind to meet an overly nice attending who wants a first name basis after one rotation. Maybe in the past they didn't have good interactions with residents and students and so are trying to force a closeness that isn't there.

Darth, I appreciate your time and advice, but I think you're getting a wrong impression about my interaction/relationship with the attendings. You make it sound like I was drinking buddies with them, when it wasn't like that at all. Even though I was on a first name basis, I was still respectful to them, and they to me. I never called them by their first name in front of other attendings, patients, residents, nurses or other staff. As a matter of fact, we (i.e attendings, residents, nurses) did have casual conversations over lunch about family, jobs, past failures, future goals, ups and downs of life etc etc. Some real personal stuff. It was a really tight knit group. Even so, I never assumed that I have any sort of "special relationship" with any of them.

These attendings don't need med students or residents to like them. What do you think this is, high school?!? They went to Georgetown and University of Pennsylvania for medical school. CHOP for fellowships. They are directors of their respective departments. One of them is nationally renowned as a pioneer in her field. They are amongst the most respected members of the faculty at this hospital.

Frankly, I'm a little insulted by your post. I don't need a lecture on how I am supposed to behave with attendings or C.E.Os. I know the totem pole very well and my place on it. You must think I'm socially inept.
 
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I always knew that 21 programs are not enough. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I didn't have any money to apply to any more. If I had, I would have applied to all programs where I would be eligible.

I agree that it's most likely my scores that are hindering me. Being ECFMG certified matters a lot! Some(probably most) programs don't even consider applications if you are not ECFMG certified at the time of application. I'm hoping I'll pass my CS retake (I already passed CK) and be certified in January 2009. I am sure being certified will help me tremendously if I am to apply for the match again next year.

Re: Peds boards - the Director of Medical Education did talk about that during my interview with him. He was talking about the +s and also the -s of the program. He said that over the last few years the board pass rate for residents at the program have been going down (from about 88% to 75%). He also said that the ones who are having trouble with the boards are those residents who have had trouble with the USMLEs. I realized what he was trying to get at, so I casually mentioned that I've had some trouble with the boards myself. He said "Don't worry, you're fine". He also said that the program provides special "tutoring" (like a mentorship program) to residents who are having trouble. So Darth is correct about programs's reluctance to offer me interviews because of my trouble with the boards.

Thanks for your post.

I think Darth was correct in saying that applying to 20 peds programs was not really enough. Peds doesn't have as many spots as IM and fp, and that does make it more competitive. I do think you should have applied to a lot more...but 20/20 hindsight is perfect. I don't think you are totally hosed yet for this year...you did have that 1 interview and people DO match with just 1 interview. Plus I'm assuming you still have some active application (i.e. not rejected from everywhere you've applied).

I think Darth is probably reading a bit too much into the whole situation with your attendings. I think they just haven't gotten back to you because of being busy, and/or they might think that there isn't much they can do to help you at this point. I doubt that they don't really like you, or they wouldn't have given you an honors grade if only 4/24 people got one.
I do think following up with these faculty (not to the point of being pushy and calling them every day, though) once more is not at all out of line. Some faculty do want to help students and residents, and if nothing else they can offer you advice about what to do. You can present it as, "I realize that having low Step scores and being an IMG is a problem in my application...is there anything else you think I can do at this point to improve my application? Do you think it would be advisable for me to call up the programs I haven't heard back from yet? Do you think that doing a year or 18 months of pediatrics research would help my application if I end up not matching and have to apply again next year?".

I think the problem is totally your Step scores, plus probably the fact that you haven't yet passed the Step2 CK. Also not being an IMG or program director, I'm not sure how much it matters not to have ECFMG certification yet. But you will have fixed the 2 problems of not having passed the Step2CK and not being ECFMG certified in a month or so.

Darth's point about the peds board exam being hard may be very important. I didn't know it is known for being hard...the IM one isn't that hard and the pass rate I think is 92-93% on the first try. If the peds programs are very nervous about people not passing the boards at the end of their 3 years, that may be another reason you're having a hard time getting interviews.

I agree with your plan about what to do in case you don't match this year. I would try to take Step 3 either next spring or next summer. You need to make sure that you do OK on it...the higher score, the better. I think you can do better than you did on Steps I/II, based on your posts on here and your performance on your peds clerkship. If you could get 220's then you could tell everyone that you have an upward trend in your scores. I agree with taking steps to get eligible for the Canadian match also, though I am unfamiliar with it. I think you need to start networking to see if you can get a research job doing pediatrics related stuff...or a job in a pediatric hospital.
 
First of all, I'm a dude.🙂

The programs don't get to see the breakdown. That information is available to the examinees only. But looking at my score report, I have a borderline pass in most subjects (including pediatrics).

Agree with not having a passing score yet on CS is preventing me from getting more interviews. Hopefully I pass the second time around and will be ECFMG certified by January. If I don't get anything this year, being certified will definitely help me next year.

I've applied to 10 FM programs. I have my first FM interview next week!😀 (The program where I did my FM rotation) Not sure if they would have offered me an interview if I hadn't done a rotation there. I went and spoke to the program coordinator in person and she said that since I've done a rotation there and they know me, they'll offer me an interview.

Even though I'm really, really, really happy to have another interview, I feel that it's a courtesy interview (just like the one I had at the children's hospital, where I also did electives). Now if I get an interview from a program where I didn't do any electives, then I would be more confident in matching.

I agree that there is still a little hope for me in Canada. The situation for IMGs is actually worse there compared to the U.S. Too many applicants, too few spots. Even though I'm a Canadian citizen, it doesn't really help, because you HAVE to be a canadian citizen or a permanent resident to apply for a residency position. There is no visa program similar to J1/H1B like there is in the U.S.


Looking at the OP, it appears that superoxide got a 188/77 on Step 2 CK which is very borderline pass as I guess 75 is a pass. . . Realize that Step 2 CK is also broken down into various subjects, so if Superoxide did poorer in the Pediatrics part of Step 2 CK then a PD could reasonably conclude that he/she did not pass the Pediatrics part of the examination, and would be at a significant knowledge deficit when starting residency. This in conjunction with the Step 1 looks not so good, i.e. worse than a bad day and more like not studying enough or went to a medical school with poor preparation or a combination of things. This in of itself isn't fatal, but a good percentage of pediatric residency programs would pass on this application. While more solid applicants with average Step 1 around 85, 216 or so and equivalent Step 2 CK scores can get by with 20 or 30 applications, that is not the case here.

The 25th percentile for matched US seniors in Step 1 is 203 and for IMGs is 195, so you can see that a Step 1 below 195 hurts. Even the median Step 1 for IMGs who did not match in Pediatrics was 198, so most people who did not match in Pediatrics who were IMGs had Step 1 scores above Superoxide's Step 1 score. Even the median Step 2 score for IMGs who did not match was 200, which is well above Superoxide's Step 2 score. So Superoxide needs something else to help him/her match, which may include research and/or more clinical experience if he/she fails to match this year.

I think also that Superoxide failed Step 2 CS will hurt as if he/she fails it again then he/she can't go through the match and will be automatically withdrawn. So, maybe this is the big problem that residency programs have with her/his application.

I think that family practice has folks with lower step scores matching, so this seems to be at least another alternative for superoxide.

I think that superoxide's best bet would be to pass Step 2 CS if not already done, and then perhaps try to redeem him/herself with blowing away Step 3, i.e. showing that he/she can do better than borderline pass/fail on the steps. . . Even without Step 3, if Superoxide get ECFMG certified and applies again next year to maybe even just 50 programs then he/she will get a very pleasant number of interviews.

The pass rate for Peds boards is much lower than for the IM boards, around 81% first time pass rate! If Superoxide's Pediatric subsection of Step 2 was below the average of all the subsections then he/she would really have a lot of ground to make up before passing this examination.

Honestly, if Canadian programs don't look at/require USMLEs then if I were Superoxide I would take the canadian licensing exams (after studying hard) and get a great score and look at Canada for a pediatric residency which would be easier then trying to get into a pediatric residency with multiple fails and very low score in the US currently.
 
The idea of applying to FM/IM is good.The low scores and failures are hard to look past. Hopefully something will happen in this years match.
If not though it would be prudent to look for work. Getting a us job that sponsors a visa might be problematic. If your parents live near one of the teaching hospitals, I think your best bet would be to try to find a research job at one of those places, make some connections, pass the mccee and try your luck with the canadian match. In the mean time you could pay down some debt and save some $ for next year's match.

Yeah, can't do anything about the board scores. Hopefully passing CS and being ECFMG certified will help in next years match.

I'm not at all hopeful of getting a job in the U.S (especially with the current economic situation here). It's hard for american citizens to get jobs these days, so I'm not expecting to get anything. In Canada I live in Toronto, so there are plenty of academic hospitals where I can do some research. Not sure if I'd be paid to do it, but I'm willing to do it for free. I'd have to look into that.

Thanks for your post.
 
Take a private loan, even if you need a cosigner. Then expand you application and have a backup plan such as Family which may be easier to get into. Only having 1 interview is very bad odds when it comes to match day.

Agree. Already applied to 10 FM programs. I have my first (and so far only) interview next week. (at the program where I did my FM rotation).

I'm hoping that once I pass CS and get certified, I'd get some more interview offers from FM programs. I have only received one rejection from FM so far, one interview invitation, and haven't heard anything from the remaining 8. So there is still some hope. I've emailed all the programs informing them that my CS score is pending and about my ECFMG certification status. So maybe, just maybe, they're waiting on that before they decide to offer me an interview or reject my application.

Thanks for the post.
 
You know, superoxide, I was thinking to myself what it was about your posts that had me respond so eagerly and really wish you the best in securing a residency position. After all, quite a few students post on sdn detailing their woes, and most of the time I think "well, just accept the fact that you're not cut out for clinical medicine and move on."

I realized that you seem to be one of those rare people who truly are more than your numbers. Your written English is superb, your ideas and analysis are quite high-level, and I think you demonstrate a great deal of intelligence. That's why I think you would really impress people if they got the chance to meet you one-on-one, that they'd be willing to take the leap and overlook your bad numbers.

The impersonal filter of ERAS doesn't let any of that come across (after all, most FMGs' personal statements are vetted and polished so that their command of English looks excellent too). Again, that's why I think you should make the effort and directly contact programs to let them know your interest.
 
You make it sound like I was drinking buddies with them, when it wasn't like that at all. Even though I was on a first name basis, I was still respectful to them, and they to me. I never called them by their first name in front of other attendings, patients, residents, nurses or other staff. These attendings don't need med students or residents to like them. Frankly, I'm a little insulted by your post. I don't need a lecture on how I am supposed to behave with attendings or C.E.Os. I know the totem pole very well and my place on it. You must think I'm socially inept.

My comments were more a series of general observations for everyone reading the thread concerning attendings who do sort of pretend to be on a first name basis with residents/students. This can lead to false assumptions of friendship and receiving help later when in reality this is how these attendings treat everybody. I have had this happen to me and seen it happen. Nothing personal directed at you just something I find cheesy about attendings. When you interview you will find some attendings talk up their program a lot, . . . but then things start when you actually start the residency and maybe things aren't as friendly as you were lead to believe.

Some attendings do care a lot about crafting an image of having an "open door" and listening to residents and students. You will see this too when you interview. PDs can talk for hours about how they love helping out residents and being supportive and how wonderful their residency program is.

In the end don't take anything at face value. I don't believe I attempted to personally insult you, but rather wanted to point out to other students to think before sending a super friendly letter to attendings, which may work or will work for you, but could be misguided for others and could seem slightly off center to some attendings.
 
Agree with blonddocteur on this.
You seem to be well-spoken and aren't trying to blame everything on mindless "outside forces"/others like some people who post on here. I do think that you need to try to do significantly better on Step 3. My experience was that people tend to study the most for Step 1, less for Step 2, even less for Step 3. A lot of them don't care what score they get on Step 3 because they are already in residency and just need to pass. Therefore, I think that someone who DOES devote significant time to studying for it has a good chance to do better on Step2/3 than on Step 1. I am not sure about the quality of the teaching at some Caribbean med schools and I do worry that you probably have some knowledge gaps, with your lowish step scores. I think you need to acknowledge that in your interview(s) and explain how you are dealing with that. I think they will want to see that you realize you might have to study more/harder to do well on future standardized tests, including the Step 3 and any relevant board exam(s) for your specialty.

p.s. Don't assume that any interview is just a "courtesy interview". That MIGHT be true, but you also don't know how far down their match list these places typically go. I know you know this, but just had to remind...you need to treat every interview as if you had a shot just like every other applicant sitting in that room.
 
you make it sound like i was drinking buddies with them, when it wasn't like that at all. Even though i was on a first name basis, i was still respectful to them, and they to me. I never called them by their first name in front of other attendings, patients, residents, nurses or other staff. These attendings don't need med students or residents to like them. Frankly, i'm a little insulted by your post. I don't need a lecture on how i am supposed to behave with attendings or c.e.os. I know the totem pole very well and my place on it. You must think i'm socially inept.

. . .
 
You know, superoxide, I was thinking to myself what it was about your posts that had me respond so eagerly and really wish you the best in securing a residency position. After all, quite a few students post on sdn detailing their woes, and most of the time I think "well, just accept the fact that you're not cut out for clinical medicine and move on."

I realized that you seem to be one of those rare people who truly are more than your numbers. Your written English is superb, your ideas and analysis are quite high-level, and I think you demonstrate a great deal of intelligence. That's why I think you would really impress people if they got the chance to meet you one-on-one, that they'd be willing to take the leap and overlook your bad numbers.

The impersonal filter of ERAS doesn't let any of that come across (after all, most FMGs' personal statements are vetted and polished so that their command of English looks excellent too). Again, that's why I think you should make the effort and directly contact programs to let them know your interest.

Thank You.🙂

I'm going to wait till I get my hopefully passing CS score (in about two weeks). I don't think it's going to do me any good calling them now. My case will be a lot stronger once I'm ECFMG certified.
 
Hi Darth,

I've never taken anything that was said to me at face value, nor have I expected any special favours from anyone. I know the "politics" of the match and everyone involved with it.

I got a lot of comments about how I shouldn't worry about my board scores and how they look at the whole application etc etc. Although it's good to hear that, everyone knows that board scores are almost always the most important thing that programs use to filter out the weaker applicants.

Thanks for your message and all your advice. Much appreciated.

My comments were more a series of general observations for everyone reading the thread concerning attendings who do sort of pretend to be on a first name basis with residents/students. This can lead to false assumptions of friendship and receiving help later when in reality this is how these attendings treat everybody. I have had this happen to me and seen it happen. Nothing personal directed at you just something I find cheesy about attendings. When you interview you will find some attendings talk up their program a lot, . . . but then things start when you actually start the residency and maybe things aren't as friendly as you were lead to believe.

Some attendings do care a lot about crafting an image of having an "open door" and listening to residents and students. You will see this too when you interview. PDs can talk for hours about how they love helping out residents and being supportive and how wonderful their residency program is.

In the end don't take anything at face value. I don't believe I attempted to personally insult you, but rather wanted to point out to other students to think before sending a super friendly letter to attendings, which may work or will work for you, but could be misguided for others and could seem slightly off center to some attendings.
 
Agree with blonddocteur on this.
You seem to be well-spoken and aren't trying to blame everything on mindless "outside forces"/others like some people who post on here. I do think that you need to try to do significantly better on Step 3. My experience was that people tend to study the most for Step 1, less for Step 2, even less for Step 3. A lot of them don't care what score they get on Step 3 because they are already in residency and just need to pass. Therefore, I think that someone who DOES devote significant time to studying for it has a good chance to do better on Step2/3 than on Step 1. I am not sure about the quality of the teaching at some Caribbean med schools and I do worry that you probably have some knowledge gaps, with your lowish step scores. I think you need to acknowledge that in your interview(s) and explain how you are dealing with that. I think they will want to see that you realize you might have to study more/harder to do well on future standardized tests, including the Step 3 and any relevant board exam(s) for your specialty.

p.s. Don't assume that any interview is just a "courtesy interview". That MIGHT be true, but you also don't know how far down their match list these places typically go. I know you know this, but just had to remind...you need to treat every interview as if you had a shot just like every other applicant sitting in that room.

Agreed. I was an average student in basic sciences. I got As and Bs in my first semester, but mostly Bs and Cs in the rest of the basic science courses. Never failed anything. Did very well in all my clinical rotations. It's not my school that's the problem.

I have my FM interview tomorrow and I'm sure it's going to come up in one way or another.

Definitely I'm not going to blow off any interview that I get just because I might think it's a courtesy interview...but thanks for the reminder.🙂
 
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Agreed. I was an average student in basic sciences. I got As and Bs in my first semester, but mostly Bs and Cs in the rest of the basic science courses. Never failed anything. Did very well in all my clinical rotations. It's not my school that's the problem.


Actually, SO, I would argue that the fact you did well enough in your school's courses, both clinical and pre-clinical, but had repeated trouble with the Steps implies that the problem *is* with your school. To me, it means either the grading was lax or that the material was simply not adequate/sufficient to prepare you for the national boards.

Oh, and good luck tomorrow at your interview!
 
Actually, SO, I would argue that the fact you did well enough in your school's courses, both clinical and pre-clinical, but had repeated trouble with the Steps implies that the problem *is* with your school. To me, it means either the grading was lax or that the material was simply not adequate/sufficient to prepare you for the national boards.

While having a good board prep program at your school helps some, I am more inclined to agree with superoxide. In the end, the residents (and students) who did/do self-directed learning do very well on the wards and on the boards in general IMHO. If you see a patient with meningitis then you read up a lot about it, and do this for every patient. You can't afford to wait and be spoon fed.

I did very well on the boards (near the top of my class in step scores) and got eye popping comments when I interviewed, not because of any school preparation, but because I realized that there were huge holes in what I was being taught in medical school and on the wards. I made use of huge amounts of review materials and basically read everything in the Lange series, cardiology, pediatrics etc . . . Also, on the wards if you read journals regularly you really stand out. I began reading a popular medicine journal 3-4 years ago weekly, i.e. about 10 articles a week and it pays off when you feel more confident about patient care and when you can say, "I read in x that pharmacologic treatment for Marfan's syndrome is being questioned in that . . . "

I would agree that your school can give you a bad start, in agreeing with Blonde Docteur, in that some schools give the impression that what you learn in years 1 and 2 is sufficient for board prep. Maybe to just pass or barely pass, but if you want to excel you need to do more. Never say "Well I am passing all my basic science classes I just need to study for a couple weeks for Step 1." A lot of the material for step 1 and 2 is not taught in some medical schools and they don't realize that some of their material is out of date. Reading Kaplan microbiology and a good microbiology book will save your bacon on Step 1, while just reviewing your micro notes may not if your school did a bad job in the course as mine did.

Remember as a physician you will have to keep up with your reading, especially in private practice, but also in academia. A lot of physicians don't and this is why there is more focus on re-certification for some boards I believe.

It is true that you WILL learn a lot during third year. When I took Step 2 there many questions where I thought back to what happened on the wards with such and such a patient. However, I had read up on sepsis or acute lung injury so I remembered my patient. And I reviewed pharmacology some in third year by knowing all the meds my patients were on, i.e. mechanism, side effects.

I would advise all med students studying for the steps to run their own personal board review program, i.e. find the books they like in addition to what their school provides and to be proactive learners during third year. If you read up on ALL your patients in third year, and know selected books like Blue Prints Ob/Gyn, First Aid Medicine, Kaplan Medicine, i.e. know what is good, it is almost impossible not to break average. I absolutely love Case Files as well, put it in the bathroom and chug through a case a day.

Blonde Docteur can disagree, but I have street cred in this department as I did >99 250+ on Step 2 CK. But I never rest on my laurels and will read two more journal articles tonight before calling it a day. I would expand the quote from DB above by saying that no school has adequate preparation for the boards as you have to do some heavy lifting yourself. Even more so in residency you have to read about your patients when you have the chance and don't think that just by doing you are learning enough as you have to do a little bit of reading as well.
 
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This is kind of a pointless intellectual debate, since none of us know superoxide nor how he/she prepared for boards. I actually would agree w/Blonddocteur that someone doing well in 1st/2nd and 3rd year but then not being able to pass the boards reflects badly on the teaching at his/her school. It also could be that superoxide didn't prepare enough, as you imply, or isn't a great test taker - in fact, that's how most of the students at Carib schools ended up down there. They were kerflummoxed by the MCAT. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. What's done is done and he/she has to move forward.

By the way, reading a ton of journal articles and always being prepared with your patients, etc. and working hard isn't a guarantee of getting good grades during 3rd year. I would say that I had very average grades during 3rd year and worked my tail off. At least at my school, there didn't seem to be much of any correlation between hard work and grades. But that was just my experience. I think the grading scales vary between schools, and even greatly among different attendings at the same school sometimes (i.e. some attendings give a ton of honors and with others it is like pulling teeth to get one, if it's even possible). I do think I learned a lot, and that was reflected in my LOR's, board scores and I ended up matching well anyway. So everyone has to make his/her own path to success.
 
This is a side debate...

Darth, your post basically confirmed that your school did not adequately prepare you for the Boards, that you had "huge holes" in your knowledge and made superhuman efforts to compensate for that-- which you quite obviously did; congratulations on doing so well.

The information presented in years 1 and 2 more than surpass what's needed for the Boards, at my school and at all US allopathic schools with which I am familiar. Most of us found that the Boards were much more straightforward, more basic and less challenging than our coursework. That's why review materials are review, and not meant to be used for primary learning-- they're more succinct, more 'bottom line,' and cover far less material.

If mastering your medical school's basic science curriculum is truly not sufficient to hit the mean on the national boards exam, then the problem clearly lies with your school. It is absolutely unacceptable for material presented to be "outdated" or for their to be gaps. Likewise, if one finds oneself using review materials to supplement coursework, that's a red flag.

Bringing the conversation back to superoxide, he probably took his school's tests just fine in order to earn his As and Bs. His problem with the boards was most likely due to a patchy knowledge base, which was largely reflective of his school's basic science curriculum. As dragonfly said, what's done is done, but it's still a shame.
 
This is a side debate...

Darth, your post basically confirmed that your school did not adequately prepare you for the Boards, that you had "huge holes" in your knowledge and made superhuman efforts to compensate for that-- which you quite obviously did; congratulations on doing so well.

The information presented in years 1 and 2 more than surpass what's needed for the Boards, at my school and at all US allopathic schools with which I am familiar. Most of us found that the Boards were much more straightforward, more basic and less challenging than our coursework. That's why review materials are review, and not meant to be used for primary learning-- they're more succinct, more 'bottom line,' and cover far less material.

If mastering your medical school's basic science curriculum is truly not sufficient to hit the mean on the national boards exam, then the problem clearly lies with your school. It is absolutely unacceptable for material presented to be "outdated" or for their to be gaps. Likewise, if one finds oneself using review materials to supplement coursework, that's a red flag.

Ideally, yes, there should be a comprehensive presentation of basic sciences for Step 1 during the first two years and that "reviewing" for Step 1 could only mean looking at your notes. However, no medical school is perfect and some just don't teach the basic sciences very well. Some US medical students DO use "review prep" material along with say their course material for gross anatomy.

There were hundreds of things I learned for the first time when studying for Step 1 (although most of it was review), and the material I used to review was not standard review material, i.e. it was probably +3,000 pages easily and took up one shelf during basic sciences. When I studied for Step 2 my material was about 30 books which easily filled up two shelves! Since I constantly studied for these boards in addition to coursework it was a mixture of primary and secondary review.

I found myself to be "weak" on renal things, so I read a 400 page renal book over a month prior to Step 2 CK. This was not a "red flag", but rather you have to figure out where your weaknesses are and fix them, and yeah I learned a lot of new things, so it was a mixture of "primary" and "secondary" learning.

But word to students to get "review books" early i.e. Kaplan, Lange Current Medical Diagnosis and usmleworld is very helpful for Step 2 as well, and is fun too. I guarantee you BD that if you got a usmleworld subscription and did the cardiology section you might score around 60% if your lucky and would learn a lot, and there are a ton of things cardiology wise you never learned in any pathophysiology class in any school state-side or otherwise, so your primary learning will continue into clinical years and beyond.

The "gapping holes" I talk about are always there, even as a resident you may have a strength in one area and your fellow resident may have a strength in another. So you *always* have gaps in your knowledge and being a excellent physician is realizing how little you know even as a resident and probably as a junior attending. Nobody can know everything.

Using review material is not a "red flag" in addition to coursework, actually I find some books excellent and help understand coursework more in depth. In the end first and second year coursework come back again and again and from the perspective of a resident are actually very superficial themselves.

I scored significantly above the mean in Step 1 as well, although not aiming for a competitive specialty. But if you are so inclined then you should start studying for Step 1 in your first year by using review books and question banks, whatever works, it is not a red flag as I know many US medical students who did this to do well on Step 1. . . most these were folks who were aiming for ultra-competitive surgical specialties like neurosurgery and ENT and figured they learned more by directing their own studies.

Sorry Blonde Docteur, but my experience says otherwise!
 
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It is absolutely unacceptable for material presented to be "outdated" or for their to be gaps.

Outdated material is frequently present in any medical school curriculum as new research is coming out all the time, there have been major almost paradigm changing trials coming out in various medical fields every couple of months it seems. Many lecturers don't change their powerpoints from one year to the next much, and sure, not everything taught is exactly up to date!

I admit if your school tries hard to have lecturers keep everything up to date this would help, but not even all faculty are up to date in everthing, and worse there are in my experience more errors and mistatements in faculty powerpoints then in multiple edition medicine books and articles and even "review books" are better edited.

There are always short-cuts and gaps in all basic science curriculums compared to the boards. You may have a lecture on TB in microbiology, but may gloss over legionellae in an afternoon, perhaps missing a couple of important points. Nothing is perfect! I am 100% sure I could find gaps in any medical school curriculum when compared to what I have learned outside of class via Kaplan review books, real textbooks and question banks.

Only by reading multiple sources do you see how different attendings/lecturers emphasize different things and everybody leaves something out. I could read the chapter in Harrison on myocarditis to you for a presentation, but I don't have enough time and make it shorter and use different sources.

I even compiled a list of gaps I found in my basic science curriculum, it was detailed!, there were things on Step 1 that were not taught at my school and things that I read about that weren't emphasized at least if mentioned only briefly and superficially. Why? There isn't a huge motivating force for faculty to be up to date and cover everything optimally because most are focused on patient care, grants or in other words other things . . . Some US medical school have had to "overhaul" their basic science curriculum because it was not organized well, was not up to date, and had gaps.

If your school BD spends say 60 hours on genetics, but my school spends 100 hours then you must be missing something right? Schools don't spend equal time on all the subjects and the quality and emphasis of subjects covered varies a lot.

I compiled a report of missing information and poorly covered topics for my basic science years and planned to submit it to the school, but decided against it as who would believe me?🙄
 
<The information presented in years 1 and 2 more than surpass what's needed for the Boards, at my school and at all US allopathic schools with which I am familiar. Most of us found that the Boards were much more straightforward, more basic and less challenging than our coursework. That's why review materials are review, and not meant to be used for primary learning-- they're more succinct, more 'bottom line,' and cover far less material. >

I don't know that I agree with this statement blond...
my medical school I found was really hard, particularly year 2, but the things taught in class weren't necessarily the things on USMLE Step 1. They always prided themselves on how they were "not teaching toward the test". That's all fine and good, but considering our entering MCAT scores, many of us tanked on Step 1, relatively. Depending on your school's curriculum, it might be necessary to utilize review books more vs. less. Also, remember that with any standardized test, 1/2 the people are going to get a below average score, and 1/2 of the people are going to get an above average score. But I do think that medical schools should be presenting the material adequately so that folks should be able to pass the boards if they've put in reasonable time to review the material. I am sure some of the Carib schools fall short in this regard, but I also think this is compounded by the fact that folks who end up down there for school often are there because they have had troubles with other standardized tests, such as the MCAT, in the past. Not surprising that this problem would show up on USMLE as well.

But as you said, this is a tangential discussion.
 
So I had my first FM interview last Wednesday which I think went well. One of the interviewers did pimp me with two clinical scenarios. I wasn't expecting that, so I got a bit nervous at first, but managed to do well on both (one was management of MI and the other was admission orders for a patient with pneumonia). She told me I did "excellent".😀

The subject of my board scores/troubles did come up. I was asked "After you failed your boards the first time, did you want to give up?" and "Why do you think you failed your boards?" I gave my honest answer which was a combination of not knowing the material well enough and a little bit of test anxiety. It was a very casual discussion and I wasn't uncomfortable discussing it at all.

At the end of the interview day, the program coordinator told us that she got "amazing" feedback about all three applicants. Not sure if she tells that to everyone who interviews.🙄

I called the faculty at the children's hospital a few days back. They weren't available so I left a message with their secretary, who said one of them will call me back. I haven't heard back from them yet.

I also re-emailed the chief resident there with whom I interviewed. I had emailed him just a few days after my interview (which was in the first week of October), but hadn't heard back, so I thought I'd try again. Haven't heard back from him either.

Hmmm...

In other news: Got one more pediatrics rejection and another FM rejection.
 
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So I had my first FM interview last Wednesday which I think went well. One of the interviewers did pimp me with two clinical scenarios. I wasn't expecting that, so I got a bit nervous at first, but managed to do well on both (one was management of MI and the other was admission orders for a patient with pneumonia). She told me I did "excellent".😀

The subject of my board scores/troubles did come up. I was asked "After you failed your boards the first time, did you want to give up?" and "Why do you think you failed your boards?" I gave my honest answer which was a combination of not knowing the material well enough and a little bit of test anxiety. It was a very casual discussion and I wasn't uncomfortable discussing it at all.

At the end of the interview day, the program coordinator told us that she got "amazing" feedback about all three applicants. Not sure if she tells that to everyone who interviews.🙄

I called the faculty at the children's hospital a few days back. They weren't available so I left a message with their secretary, who said one of them will call me back. I haven't heard back from them yet.

I also re-emailed the chief resident there with whom I interviewed. I had emailed him just a few days after my interview (which was in the first week of October), but hadn't heard back, so I thought I'd try again. Haven't heard back from him either.

Hmmm...

In other news: Got one more pediatrics rejection and another FM rejection.


I am going through the same process so I can understand how you feel. But I think they are pretty busy going through the interview process as well as keeping up their clinical/academic duties so don't read too much into that. Keep the faith and keep your fingers crossed! :xf:
 
So I had my first FM interview last Wednesday which I think went well. One of the interviewers did pimp me with two clinical scenarios. I wasn't expecting that, so I got a bit nervous at first, but managed to do well on both (one was management of MI and the other was admission orders for a patient with pneumonia). She told me I did "excellent".😀

The subject of my board scores/troubles did come up. I was asked "After you failed your boards the first time, did you want to give up?" and "Why do you think you failed your boards?" I gave my honest answer which was a combination of not knowing the material well enough and a little bit of test anxiety. It was a very casual discussion and I wasn't uncomfortable discussing it at all.


At the end of the interview day, the program coordinator told us that she got "amazing" feedback about all three applicants. Not sure if she tells that to everyone who interviews.🙄

I called the faculty at the children's hospital a few days back. They weren't available so I left a message with their secretary, who said one of them will call me back. I haven't heard back from them yet.

I also re-emailed the chief resident there with whom I interviewed. I had emailed him just a few days after my interview (which was in the first week of October), but hadn't heard back, so I thought I'd try again. Haven't heard back from him either.

Hmmm...

In other news: Got one more pediatrics rejection and another FM rejection.

Hey Superoxide,

I read your posts today and I wanted to say that I wish you the best of luck. You sound like you really want this and are willing to continue with the uphill battle despite your problems. I was wondering if you had any news? I hope you can have a successful match this year. Good luck!
 
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