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deleted1090645

Dear potential doctors,

Please be aware that graduating from an international medical school and passing all USMLE's does not guarantee you a residency position. The match rate for IMG's has been 50% or less since 2005 due to the cap on residency training positions since 1997. There was a slight uptick in recent years due to slight increases in training positions (61% in 2020) but there were still 6,570 U.S. citizen doctors and legal permanent residents who went unmatched in March of 2020 which is a travesty for a developed country representing 1.3 billion dollars in federal student loans going unpaid (6,570 unmatched x average of 200,000 in federal student loans). All other developed nations provide residencies to their own first so why doesn't the United States? Recently unmatched doctors protested in Washington DC to highlight this fact. I did not know this rate when I entered into medical school so I thought it was important to make sure you have all of the information. Good luck.


Thanks,
Dr. C
 
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RJ McReady

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Wow, this video omits so much information. They claim to be “US doctors” but there is no information on where they went to school, test scores, or desired specialty. Just because you have an MD doesn’t mean you are automatically entitled to a residency position.
 
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TBH, these are people who either did not invest the time to learn what being a FMG or IMG entailed, or took a shot with full knowledge and lost. It undoubtedly sucks to be them, but I'm not sure how that somehow creates an obligation for the American taxpayer to fund residency slots for them in order to validate the corrupt off-shore med school industry. Maybe they should be protesting to the governments of wherever their schools are located to create residency spots for them there, rather than trying to make it an AAMC or US government problem, when they did not even attend an AAMC or American medical school???
 
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deleted1090645

Wow, this video omits so much information. They claim to be “US doctors” but there is no information on where they went to school, test scores, or desired specialty. Just because you have an MD doesn’t mean you are automatically entitled to a residency position.
It should and we should take care of our citizens before giving our spots to international graduates from other countries like every other developed nation of the world. Also our scores are not your business. What is the point in passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 to not get a training position after? We all know things are moving to pass/fail anyway. I think it is time to take care of our own rather than casting shade.
 
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deleted1090645

TBH, these are people who either did not invest the time to learn what being a FMG or IMG entailed, or took a shot with full knowledge and lost. It undoubtedly sucks to be them, but I'm not sure how that somehow creates an obligation for the American taxpayer to fund residency slots for them in order to validate the corrupt off-shore med school industry. Maybe they should be protesting to the governments of wherever their school were located to create residency spots for them there, rather than trying to make it an AAMC or US government problem when they did not even attend an AAMC or American medical school???
I applied to one school only. I didn't know match rates when I entered and the school didn't advertise it. Is it my fault or the schools fault for misleading those accepted into medical school? We are advocating for more residency spots through the government. It would be great if you could reach out to your reps and senators to do the same. AAMC charges 3,000 dollars every year, year after year to those that don't match. They are a non-profit with 87 million in the bank. Maybe the answer is they should use some of this extra money to fund new residency spots and stop charging those that have applied after the first year. Otherwise they are just taking advantage of the disenfranchised. Have a heart people and support American Doctors so they can help with the doctor shortage and COVID. They could start training tomorrow if given the opportunity. Thank you!
 
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It should and we should take care of our citizens before giving our spots to international graduates from other countries like every other developed nation of the world. Also our scores are not your business. What is the point in passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 to not get a training position after? We all know things are moving to pass/fail anyway. I think it is time to take care of our own rather than casting shade.
The United States is a nation of immigrants. Brain drain is a good thing, as long as you're the country where the brains are draining to.
 
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RJ McReady

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It should and we should take care of our citizens before giving our spots to international graduates from other countries like every other developed nation of the world. Also our scores are not your business. What is the point in passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 to not get a training position after? We all know things are moving to pass/fail anyway. I think it is time to take care of our own rather than casting shade.
Really? The video should omit crucial information such as where one trained and what their scores were? Why is it that these people haven’t been able to get a residency for (in one case) 7 years? Perhaps there is a reason for that.
 
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deleted1090645

What numbers did you use to calculate this?
I guess the slight uptick in spots last year improved this slightly but still really low don't you think? Here is statistics from first aid for the match for 2005-2009 showing this has been consistently low for a long time.
 

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deleted1090645

Really? The video should omit crucial information such as where one trained and what their scores were? Why is it that these people haven’t been able to get a residency for (in one case) 7 years? Perhaps there is a reason for that.
They passed, showed perseverance and are U.S. citizens. I think you are just looking to shame and claim superiority but like I said that information is private and none of your business. Going to pass/fail is going to really help I think. Then people will stop claiming that test scores are the best measure of a quality doctor when in fact it is more compassion, bedside manner and taking the time to listen to patients. How do you do in those areas?
 
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Med Ed

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I guess the slight uptick in spots last year improved this slightly but still really low don't you think? Here is statistics from first aid for the match for 2005-2009 showing this has been consistently low for a long time.
Why should we care about statistics that are 12-16 years old?
 
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They passed, showed perseverance and are U.S. citizens. I think you are just looking to shame and claim superiority but like I said that information is private and none of your business. Going to pass/fail is going to really help I think. Then people will stop claiming that test scores are the best measure of a quality doctor when in fact it is more compassion, bedside manner and taking the time to listen to patients. How do you do in those areas?
To be fair, I doubt revealing a range of scores or a range of specialties etc. can doxx anybody in your group. And it IS important for the argument you are making to know the backgrounds of the people not matching. Passing school and the Steps is a far cry from doing well on them and demonstrating mastery - particularly important to overcome the historical bias against offshore schools which are considered by program directors to have an inferior education.
I guess the slight uptick in spots last year improved this slightly but still really low don't you think? Here is statistics from first aid for the match for 2005-2009 showing this has been consistently low for a long time.
This is 14 years old and 61% is a lot more than <50% in my humble opinion.
I watched their video before this one and it seems like they’re actually complaining about IMGs getting residencies over AMGs.

Maybe these grads are AMGs but can’t get a residency. I don’t think they’re advocating for IMGs like the title of this thread.
The OP here (UAUDOA) is representing the organization that put out that video so I assume the title of the thread is accurate in terms of what they're focusing on.
 
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RJ McReady

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They passed, showed perseverance and are U.S. citizens. I think you are just looking to shame and claim superiority but like I said that information is private and none of your business. Going to pass/fail is going to really help I think. Then people will stop claiming that test scores are the best measure of a quality doctor when in fact it is more compassion, bedside manner and taking the time to listen to patients. How do you do in those areas?

You are mistaken. I’m not trying to shame anyone. I happen to believe that the quality of training matters a great deal, and Caribbean and other foreign schools are taking advantage of applicants with the promise of a residency, which is something that they are not entitled to simply because they graduated from medical school. Btw I would say the same thing about a person who graduated from a US school and failed to match.
 
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deleted1090645

To be fair, I doubt revealing a range of scores or a range of specialties etc. can doxx anybody in your group. And it IS important for the argument you are making to know the backgrounds of the people not matching. Passing school and the Steps is a far cry from doing well on them and demonstrating mastery - particularly important to overcome the historical bias against offshore schools which are considered by program directors to have an inferior education.

This is 14 years old and 61% is a lot more than <50% in my humble opinion.

The OP here (UAUDOA) is representing the organization that put out that video so I assume the title of the thread is accurate in terms of what they're focusing on.
Thank you yes. We now classify American Medical Graduate as a U.S. citizen or LPR who went to either a U.S. school or an International school since they both took out federal student loans.
 
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61% is still very low don't you think?
Just like how someone graduating with a Bachelors in X is not entitled to work in X field (indeed, I believe the stats are that only around 27% of folks actually work in the field that they majored in during college), having a US passport and a MD degree should not guarantee the right to see patients.
 
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deleted1090645

You are mistaken. I’m not trying to shame anyone. I happen to believe that the quality of training matters a great deal, and Caribbean and other foreign schools are taking advantage of applicants with the promise of a residency, which is something that they are not entitled to simply because they graduated from medical school. Btw I would say the same thing about a person who graduated from a US school and failed to match.
How many doctors have to go unmatched before you stop shaming any of them and realize that the cap in residency positions is what is to blame and not the unmatched doctor? Shaming either group is really not a good look.
 
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deleted1090645

Just like how someone graduating with a Bachelors in X is not entitled to work in X field (indeed, I believe the stats are that only around 27% of folks actually work in the field that they majored in during college), having a US passport and a MD degree should not guarantee the right to see patients.
Ok how about a lawyer analogy? You pass law school and pass the bar you are allowed to practice. Obviously I think residency is important and wouldn't want to practice without it but passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 has to mean something or it is a waste of talented American minds and this waste should not be occurring. We need other doctors to stand up for us and help us rather than casting blame. Hippocratic oath people.
 
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deleted1090645

Just like how someone graduating with a Bachelors in X is not entitled to work in X field (indeed, I believe the stats are that only around 27% of folks actually work in the field that they majored in during college), having a US passport and a MD degree should not guarantee the right to see patients.
Well I volunteer and see patients. How is that any different? You just don't want me to be paid I guess?
 
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drducky.

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How many doctors have to go unmatched before you stop shaming any of them and realize that the cap in residency positions is what is to blame and not the unmatched doctor? Shaming either group is really not a good look.
There’s enough residencies for students that go to med schools in america.

I see your point is that american CITIZENS should get residencies regardless of where they went to school. But seeing as Caribbean med schools make so much $$$. If we increase residency spots, then what’s to spot 100 more Caribbean schools from opening. There will never be enough residency spots for caribbean grads even if they are american citizens.
 
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RJ McReady

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Can’t understand why it is that you think you are being shamed. The answer is not to open up the floodgates to a group of carribean graduates, whether they US citizens or not.
 
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deleted1090645

Can’t understand why it is that you think you are being shamed. The answer is not to open up the floodgates to a group of carribean graduates, whether they US citizens or not.
With one of the lowest Doctor to patient ratios at 2:1000 of any developed nation I don't know. I think citizens of this country would disagree and would love to have us in rural underserved America practicing primary care.
 
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deleted1090645

There’s enough residencies for students that go to med schools in america.

I see your point is that american CITIZENS should get residencies regardless of where they went to school. But seeing as Caribbean med schools make so much $$$. If we increase residency spots, then what’s to spot 100 more Caribbean schools from opening. There will never be enough residency spots for caribbean grads even if they are american citizens.
Well that is up to our government to decide I guess by determining what schools are allowed to get federal loan backing. I might agree with you but when I went I only applied to one school and it was a viable option as well as many other medical schools around the world that can provide a quality education at lower cost. I didn't know the match rates and I didn't see a problem with going out of the country for an experience in another culture. If you want to fight that fight feel free but please don't persecute those that utilized a viable option to get their medical degree and later passed all of their boards.
 
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I’m really impressed that the rate went up by 61% this year. Progress, albeit small, has been made, and we could benefit from more primary care residencies, not specialities.
 
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Well I volunteer and see patients. How is that any different? You just don't want me to be paid I guess?
You are volunteering with patients in a different capacity than an MD/DO
 
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deleted1090645

The United States is a nation of immigrants. Brain drain is a good thing, as long as you're the country where the brains are draining to.
I am not sure brain drain is a good thing but I am not opposed to immigrants taking the remaining spots left after citizens get them like every other nation of the developed world. Seriously tell me which country doesn't take their citizens first?
 
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deleted1090645

You are volunteering with patients in a different capacity than an MD/DO
I have supervision yes but if you asked any of the doctors I work with, I function at a resident level (Physical and History, prescription writing, diagnositic orders, note writing, follow-up, etc.)
 

RJ McReady

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Where are you getting this information? From 2009-2013 the physician/patient ratio was 1:24, comparable to other developed countries. Please don’t spread misinformation like your video.
 
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drducky.

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Well that is up to our government to decide I guess by determining what schools are allowed to get federal loan backing. I might agree with you but when I went I only applied to one school and it was a viable option as well as many other medical schools around the world that can provide a quality education at lower cost. I didn't know the match rates and I didn't see a problem with going out of the country for an experience in another culture. If you want to fight that fight feel free but please don't persecute those that utilized a viable option to get their medical degree and later passed all of their boards.
I can definitely sympathize with your situation. But not knowing that caribbean schools have poor match rates before committing 300k and 4 years is very ignorant. It’s like someone investing their life savings on the stock market and didn’t realize that they could lose it all. Should we refund everyone that lost their money in the stock market too? At what point does it become personal responsibility for your own life?

With that said, I would definitely give you a second chance at residency if it were up to me. We all deserve second chances at life.
 
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deleted1090645

I can definitely sympathize with your situation. But not knowing that caribbean schools have poor match rates before committing 300k and 4 years is very ignorant. It’s like someone investing their life savings on the stock market and didn’t realize that they could lose it all. Should we refund everyone that lost their money in the stock market too? At what point does it become personal responsibility for your own life?
It doesn't appear like you can.Trust me I have learned a lot about myself and and have thought a great deal about that since not matching but I persevered and will hopefully match this year since I had interviews. I did my research but I didn't become aware of the unmatched percentage until I bought that first aid for the match book in 2013. That is why I created the thread, so others don't have the same misconceptions I had when I entered into medical school. I definitely didn't post this to fight with you guys about taking care and supporting the best and brightest minds of our country. I thought that would be a no-brainer. you guys really lack empathy. I didn't give up but it wasn't easy. I thought about suicide and many have committed suicide after not matching. We shouldn't be putting that type of stress on people and should not be wasting our best and brightest by not increasing training positions. They have been capped since 1997. I don't get why you want to blame the unmatched so bad even though it is evident that it is not their fault. How many have to go unmatched before you realize what the real issue is?
 
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this is comparable with other developed countries.
We should double that to be comparable 4 to 1,000. We should be at the top of the list, not number 30. You agree that your 1: 24 was bogus now? whos spreading misinformation? Let me guess you don't think there is a doctor shortage either? I guess the AAMC is spreading misinformation also. New AAMC Report Confirms Growing Physician Shortage I mean I know they are but not about the doctor shortage and our aging population. I was born and raised in rural America it is very evident there are not enough doctors and my community would love to have me.
 
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It doesn't appear like you can. If you could you would be calling your reps and senators today to advocate for the reintroduction of S.348/H.R.1763 The Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019. Trust me I have learned a lot about myself and and have thought a great deal about that since not matching but I persevered and will hopefully match this year since I had interviews. I did my research but I didn't become aware of the unmatched percentage until I bout that first aid for the match book in 2013. That is why I created the thread, so others don't have the same misconceptions I had when I entered into medical school. I definitely didn't post this to fight with you guys about taking care and supporting the best and brightest minds of our country. I thought that would be a no-brainer. you guys really lack empathy. I didn't give up but it wasn't easy. I thought about suicide and many have committed suicide after not matching. We shouldn't be putting that type of stress on people and should not be wasting our best and brightest by not increasing training positions. They have been capped since 1997. I don't get why you want to blame the unmatched so bad even though it is evident that it is not their fault. How many have to go unmatched before you realize what the real issue is?
It's a difficult situation and props to you for persevering - best of luck with the Match this year. Part of the reason you're getting so much pushback is because the Caribbean school problem has been extremely well documented online and on SDN especially so there is less sympathy for those who choose to pursue that path as it is regarded as a lack of research into their institutions on the behalf of the student. I personally believe the problem is with Caribbean schools and that they should be regulated heavily to fix this issue. You mentioned law students previously and I think that's fascinating because that's a wonderful case study in what happens when we guarantee the ability to practice to everyone with a degree. Lawyer salaries are freefalling and finding positions in large firms are near impossible outside of a top school pedigree.
 
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Moko

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Is it my fault or the schools fault for misleading those accepted into medical school?
Information on the high dropout rates and low match rates from Caribbean medical schools is publicly available and well known. Anyone who has spent just a few hours independently researching this should know that Caribbean schools have high dropout rates, and successfully completing their degree at a Caribbean medical school does not guarantee a residency position. In fact, most people who go to the Caribbean for medical school will meet one of these unfortunate fates. This is why we strongly advise against going to Caribbean medical schools.

It is up to students to do their due diligence and risk assessment prior to spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and up to four years of their life in this risky pursuit. One does not get to gamble, and then complain after the fact that they did not get a desired outcome. Instead of feeling entitlement and accusing others of lacking empathy, maybe it's time for those in this situation to take some personal responsibility. Just my thoughts.
 
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RJ McReady

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I was born and raised in rural America it is very evident there are not enough doctors and my community would love to have me
I wish no ill will to you or others in your situation, but you are asking to fix a situation which is in large part due to your own decision making.
 
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deleted1090645

Information on the high dropout rates and low match rates from Caribbean medical schools is publicly available and well known. Anyone who has spent just a few hours independently researching this should know that Caribbean schools have high dropout rates, and successfully completing their degree at a Caribbean medical school does not guarantee a residency position. In fact, most people who go to Caribbean for medical school will meet one of these unfortunate fates. This is why we strongly advise against going to Caribbean medical schools.

It is up to students to do their due diligence and risk assessment prior to spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and up to four years of their life in this risky pursuit. One does not get to gamble, and then complain after the fact that they did not get a desired outcome. Instead of feeling entitlement, maybe it's time for those in this situation to take some personal responsibility. Just my thoughts.
Well I guess you don't believe me that I didn't know which is fine. Regardless though, I am here today and America needs me. My community needs me. Why do you want to persecute me for the way I obtained my medical degree? It is just as good as yours. You should be advocating for increasing residency positions rather than judging me for a decision I made over a decade ago. Just my thoughts.
 
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It is up to students to do their due diligence and risk assessment prior to spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and up to four years of their life in this risky pursuit.
You'll be surprised by how many students DON'T look into all the schools they apply to and rely exclusively on MSAR or US News Rankings... Not that I'm saying OP did not do his research thoroughly...
 
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deleted1090645

I wish no ill will to you or others in your situation, but you are asking to fix a situation which is in large part due to your own decision making.
I'll take that but I am here ready to help. I think you are going to have to live with that.
 
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deleted1090645

You'll be surprised by how many students DON'T look into all the schools they apply to and rely exclusively on MSAR or US News Rankings... Not that I'm saying OP did not do his research thoroughly...
You know the schools should tell us the match rates rather than advertising how many people are placed. Does no blame fall on the schools?
 

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I'll take that but I am here ready to help. I think you are going to have to live with that.
The problem isn’t that you are ready to help, but, for whatever reason, that residency programs are not ready to let you help, despite your degree.
 
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deleted1090645

The problem isn’t that you are ready to help, but, for whatever reason, that residency programs are not ready to let you help, despite your degree.
We will see March 19th but it won't stop me from helping other disenfranchised doctors either way. This is my Hippocratic oath to do no harm and if you continue to go down this road you should have your license stripped. I will continue to advocate on this because America needs more doctors who are compassionate, empathetic, and have a good bedside manner. When was the last time your patient asked you your USMLE scores?
 
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You know the schools should tell us the match rates rather than advertising how many people are placed. Does no blame fall on the schools?
The schools are to be partially blamed, but I heeded to advices from this forum and looked up match rate info. for all my schools (all 95%+).

the real question is did you enjoy your experience at your school? Do you think you would've gone to other schools, had you known about the match rate situation? An MD is an MD. @RJ McReady puts it nice. You are ready for big changes, but the residency programs in the US are not. It will take some time, but I guarantee you - winter is coming.
 

RJ McReady

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With all due respect, you don’t know the first thing about me, where I come from, or what my journey has been. I should have my license stripped? For what, expressing my opinion?
You are very good at playing the victim when in large part your decisions and performance , and no one else’s, have put you in this situation .
 
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deleted1090645

The schools are to be partially blamed, but I heeded to advices from this forum and looked up match rate info. for all my schools (all 95%+).

the real question is did you enjoy your experience at your school? Do you think you would've gone to other schools, had you known about the match rate situation? An MD is an MD. @RJ McReady puts it nice. You are ready for big changes, but the residency programs in the US are not. It will take some time, but I guarantee you - winter is coming.
I did but I would have went to a U.S. school if I had known. I am good either way. I will succeed with or without residency. I am in a happy place now but I am looking to help other doctors that deserve residency.
 
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deleted1090645

With all due respect, you don’t know the first thing about me, where I come from, or what my journey has been. I should have my license stripped? For what, expressing my opinion?
You are very good at playing the victim when in large part your decisions and performance , and no one else’s, have put you in this situation .
I am not playing the victim but I am highlighting that 6,570 doctors went unmatched. How many of these doctors don't deserve a shot a residency and how many do? I think you like playing judge, jury and executioner without knowing me so why can't I play it too?
 
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