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RJ McReady

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I see that it’s pointless to continue this discussion if you continue to insist that everyone who applies for residency is entitled to a position.
GL to you, I mean that sincerely.
 
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mikesheree

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They passed, showed perseverance and are U.S. citizens. I think you are just looking to shame and claim superiority but like I said that information is private and none of your business. Going to pass/fail is going to really help I think. Then people will stop claiming that test scores are the best measure of a quality doctor when in fact it is more compassion, bedside manner and taking the time to listen to patients. How do you do in those areas?

Programs are going to take whoever they think are going to be “best” for their desires. As do med schools and many other areas of life ( jobs). None of us are “owed” any of the above.
Concerning the bed side manner stuff, lots of physicians settle on specialties that have minimal or no patient contact by choice because they don’t like to listen to patients, frankly.
 
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I see that it’s pointless to continue this discussion if you continue to insist that everyone who applies for residency is entitled to a position.
GL to you.
I will but yes I also see this conversation is going no where. Have a nice day. I hope you can change your stance and learn to be more supportive of your colleagues. If they pass Medschool and USMLE's they deserve a chance at residency. That is my view.
 
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mikesheree

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Ok how about a lawyer analogy? You pass law school and pass the bar you are allowed to practice. Obviously I think residency is important and wouldn't want to practice without it but passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 has to mean something or it is a waste of talented American minds and this waste should not be occurring. We need other doctors to stand up for us and help us rather than casting blame. Hippocratic oath people.

Bad example. New law school grads have a dickens of a time finding desirable jobs. Supply and demand. The law firm will hire whoever they believe will best meet their requirements.
 
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Bad example. New law school grads have a dickens of a time finding desirable jobs. Supply and demand. The law firm will hire whoever they believe will best meet their requirements.
It was about the ability to practice law. I think you missed the point.
 

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Dear potential doctors,

Please be aware that graduating from an international medical school and passing all USMLE's does not guarantee you a residency position. The match rate for IMG's has been 50% or less since 2005 due to the cap on residency training positions since 1997. There was a slight uptick in recent years due to slight increases in training positions (61% in 2020) but there were still 6,570 U.S. citizen doctors and legal permanent residents who went unmatched in March of 2020 which is a travesty for a developed country representing 1.3 billion dollars in federal student loans going unpaid (6,570 unmatched x average of 200,000 in federal student loans). All other developed nations provide residencies to their own first so why doesn't the United States? Recently unmatched doctors protested in Washington DC to highlight this fact. I did not know this rate when I entered into medical school so I thought it was important to make sure you have all of the information. Good luck.

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Dr. C
Then you just didn’t do your due diligence and research before you applied.
 
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candbgirl

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I applied to one school only. I didn't know match rates when I entered and the school didn't advertise it. Is it my fault or the schools fault for misleading those accepted into medical school? We are advocating for more residency spots through the government. It would be great if you could reach out to your reps and senators to do the same. AAMC charges 3,000 dollars every year, year after year to those that don't match. They are a non-profit with 87 million in the bank. Maybe the answer is they should use some of this extra money to fund new residency spots and stop charging those that have applied after the first year. Otherwise they are just taking advantage of the disenfranchised. Have a heart people and support American Doctors so they can help with the doctor shortage and COVID. They could start training tomorrow if given the opportunity. Thank you!
It’s your fault. The school has no obligation to tell you. And besides it’s not part of their business plan.
 
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Moko

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Why do you want to persecute me for the way I obtained my medical degree? It is just as good as yours. You should be advocating for increasing residency positions rather than judging me for a decision I made over a decade ago. Just my thoughts.
1) No one is persecuting you, just as no one is forced to go to the Caribbean for medical school. Again, the outcomes data for Caribbean medical schools are widely available to anyone who does their research. If you went to the Caribbean expecting to get a residency position just because you passed some tests, well, that's on you for having unrealistic expectations and for not having done your due diligence prior to making one of the most consequential (and expensive) decisions that a 20-something year-old can make.
2) Not all medical training is the same. In fact, there is actually a very wide range in medical knowledge and patient care.
3) I wish you well in your endeavors. But ultimately, we should all take responsibility for our decisions instead of making wild accusations and false equivalents. I have made my share of poor choices over the past decade, but I live with them and certainly do not blame others for my own actions and inactions. From what you've shown here, perhaps it's time that you took some responsibility for yours instead of casting blame and playing victim.

This is my Hippocratic oath to do no harm and if you continue to go down this road you should have your license stripped.
I think you like playing judge, jury and executioner without knowing me so why can't I play it too?
I did not see @RJ McReady as playing "judge, jury and executioner". I would recommend that you stop being so defensive, and to rein in your emotions. If this is the way you behave in real life, this type of emotional instability can get you in real trouble especially as a resident who is often at the mercy of their program. Best of luck.
 
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Med Ed

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I did not see @RJ McReady as playing "judge, jury and executioner". I would recommend that you stop being so defensive, and to rein in your emotions. If this is the way you behave in real life, this type of emotional instability can get you in real trouble especially as a resident who is often at the mercy of their program. Best of luck.
There is certainly a way to make a case for expanding GME in the United States. Unfortunately it has not been demonstrated in this thread.
 
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MedDoc305

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Dear potential doctors,

Please be aware that graduating from an international medical school and passing all USMLE's does not guarantee you a residency position. The match rate for IMG's has been 50% or less since 2005 due to the cap on residency training positions since 1997. There was a slight uptick in recent years due to slight increases in training positions (61% in 2020) but there were still 6,570 U.S. citizen doctors and legal permanent residents who went unmatched in March of 2020 which is a travesty for a developed country representing 1.3 billion dollars in federal student loans going unpaid (6,570 unmatched x average of 200,000 in federal student loans). All other developed nations provide residencies to their own first so why doesn't the United States? Recently unmatched doctors protested in Washington DC to highlight this fact. I did not know this rate when I entered into medical school so I thought it was important to make sure you have all of the information. Good luck.

)

Thanks,
Dr. C
I do understand to a certain degree what you are trying to get at. The US government should not be providing federal funding to anyone going to a medical school outside of the country, PERIOD. The reasoning for this is simply because there are not enough residency positions to accommodate many more students than those who study within the country. Sadly, I do not see this changing in the foreseeable future, and honestly like has been mentioned before, a sudden surge in residency positions is not going to make anything better. it is simply going to oversaturate the job market (as there is a redistribution issue, not a lack of doctors). Both MD and DO schools in the US are slowly opening and expanding their classes which will continue to push out IMG's. There is nothing to stop Caribbean schools from continuing to expand their classes to any level. Match rates will still be at 61% 4 years after a residency expansion with a concurrent expansion in Caribbean classes.

What does need to happen is the US government needs to stop providing loans to IMG students so they are not victims to these schools. That way the stream of students stop accumulating and those who have graduated can finally match until everyone has been accomodated.
 
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Damson

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The system in Australia is that all Aussie citizens/permanent residents who pass med school get to go on to post-graduate internship training. It's guaranteed. But international medical graduates are NOT guaranteed a shot. Because Australia has to protect their national interests, of making sure their nationals have a job and that there isn't an oversaturation of physicians.

The US's national interests are the same: preventing oversaturation by prioritizing the licensure of physicians coming out of domestic medical schools (LCME / AOA-accredited). IMG apps are lower priority. @UAUDOA If all applicants who had completed med school / passed USMLE are guaranteed residency spots, the job market will become precarious for domestic students within years. We don't want that.
 
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Mad Jack

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I guess the slight uptick in spots last year improved this slightly but still really low don't you think? Here is statistics from first aid for the match for 2005-2009 showing this has been consistently low for a long time.
The match rate for IMGs has drastically improved in recent years. A lot of this has to do with spot expansion and osteopathic GME spots being converted to ACGME
 
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It should and we should take care of our citizens before giving our spots to international graduates from other countries like every other developed nation of the world. Also our scores are not your business. What is the point in passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 to not get a training position after? We all know things are moving to pass/fail anyway. I think it is time to take care of our own rather than casting shade.
We should be hiring the best and brightest, period. This isn't Europe, people earn what they're qualified for and don't get handouts. I want to be working alongside the best doctors, not the ones that happen to be Americans
 
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Thank you yes. We now classify American Medical Graduate as a U.S. citizen or LPR who went to either a U.S. school or an International school since they both took out federal student loans.
American Medical Graduate (AMG) - US citizen or PR, graduated from a LCME or AOA-accreditted school
US-IMG - US citizen or PR, graduated from an international medical school

federal school loans has nothing to do with your applicant category
 
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You guys realize you are bullies right @Mad Jack , @Med Ed , @Moko , @candbgirl , @Damson ?! You should be pulling up your fellow colleagues if they are drowning rather than pushing their heads further under the water. MD = MD no matter where you went to school. We should prioritizing Citizens and LPRs first. There should be separate matches. One for U.S. citizens and LPRs and then one for doctors from other countries. The economic impact of not doing that is my $450,000 in student loans falling on the U.S. taxpayer because I cant pay it back plus $150,000 per residency year of taxpayer money x 3 years or more for the international doctor who can chose to leave the country after training. This is an economic loss for our country of $900,000. It is really easy to see why it is important for the U.S. to prioritize U.S. citizens and LPRs, not to mention not hiring U.S. citizens and LPRs first breaks immigration laws. I am not sure how it has gone on this long but hopefully it ends soon. Regardless, I do not know why everyone here would not be in support of increasing residency slots through legislation. It seems like a win win for everyone. Please write to your Senators and House Representatives to support reintroduction of The Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019.
 
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Mad Jack

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You guys realize you are bullies right @Mad Jack , @Med Ed , @Moko , @candbgirl , @Damson ?! You should be pulling up your fellow colleagues if they are drowning rather than pushing their heads further under the water. MD = MD no matter where you went to school. We should prioritizing Citizens and LPRs first. There should be separate matches. One for U.S. citizens and LPRs and then one for doctors from other countries. The economic impact of not doing that is my $450,000 in student loans falling on the U.S. taxpayer because I cant pay it back plus $150,000 per residency year of taxpayer money x 3 years or more for the international doctor who can chose to leave the country after training. This is an economic loss for our country of $900,000. It is really easy to see why it is important for the U.S. to prioritize U.S. citizens and LPRs, not to mention not hiring U.S. citizens and LPRs first breaks immigration laws. I am not sure how it has gone on this long but hopefully it ends soon. Regardless, I do not know why everyone here would not be in support of increasing residency slots through legislation. It seems like a win win for everyone. Please write to your Senators and House Representatives to support reintroduction of The Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019.
>98% of IMGs remain in the US to practice. And you're right, a MD is a MD. That's why I don't advocate taking one over another based upon where they happen to be citizens of. Taking US citizens that barely scraped by or have big red flags over highly qualified international graduates would be a disservice to the taxpayers of this nation. We owe them the best care, not care provided by people who happen to be locals
 
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lumya

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I’m the daughter of a FMG who was top of her class but did not match into a US residency even though she was a practicing physician in her home country. My mom currently works in research instead of clinical practice. For an FMG to Match, she would not only have had to had a great understanding of the qualifying exams, but to be able to answer adequately and score well in a language she learned in her late 20s. I have nothing but respect for FMGs who are able to navigate the US Match system.

I think there are many issues associated with physician shortages and Match, but if the idea is to have the most qualified physicians, then their quality of education should matter more than their citizenship.
 
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>98% of IMGs remain in the US to practice. And you're right, a MD is a MD. That's why I don't advocate taking one over another based upon where they happen to be citizens of. Taking US citizens that barely scraped by or have big red flags over highly qualified international graduates would be a disservice to the taxpayers of this nation. We owe them the best care, not care provided by people who happen to be locals
Higher test scores don't mean you will give better care. You have no evidence of that. Another myth being propagated. Please enlighten me if you have a paper that goes into how to determine who will give the best care. Where did you get your 98% stat? Locals who have higher culture competence, close ties to their patients and better communication ability I think would give better care. This is an opinion.
 
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deleted1090645

American Medical Graduate (AMG) - US citizen or PR, graduated from a LCME or AOA-accreditted school
US-IMG - US citizen or PR, graduated from an international medical school

federal school loans has nothing to do with your applicant category
I am an American Medical Graduate. I am an American and I am a medical graduate. I refuse to use this outdated terminology. I think NRMP and AAMC should revise this to better categorize their statistics and stop lumping in U.S. citizens into the IMG category since we are not international. My opinion.
 
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deleted1090645

I’m the daughter of a FMG who was top of her class but did not match into a US residency even though she was a practicing physician in her home country. My mom currently works in research instead of clinical practice. For an FMG to Match, she would not only have had to had a great understanding of the qualifying exams, but to be able to answer adequately and score well in a language she learned in her late 20s. I have nothing but respect for FMGs who are able to navigate the US Match system.

I think there are many issues associated with physician shortages and Match, but if the idea is to have the most qualified physicians, then their quality of education should matter more than their citizenship.
I respect your Mom for her efforts and that is unfortunate that she could not practice clinically if that is what she wanted to do. I am not trying to displace FMGs. I just think the U.S. needs to take care of its own first. Remaining slots I am very happy to provide to FMGs.
 
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It should and we should take care of our citizens before giving our spots to international graduates from other countries like every other developed nation of the world. Also our scores are not your business. What is the point in passing medical school and Step 1,2,3 to not get a training position after? We all know things are moving to pass/fail anyway. I think it is time to take care of our own rather than casting shade.
Perhaps you are unaware that many FMGs come from places like Cambridge or Aga Khan to name but two, some of the best medical schools in the world?
 
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I won't comment on how/if match should change to help US IMGs since there's a lot of complexity there, but I do think there should be better exit options for US IMGs that don't match, such as fast-tracked routes to become an APC. They still have useful knowledge that they can bring to a medical team and it provides them a means to service their debt.
 
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deleted1090645

I won't comment on how/if match should change to help US IMGs since there's a lot of complexity there, but I do think there should be better exit options for US IMGs that don't match, such as fast-tracked routes to become an APN. They still have useful knowledge that they can bring to a medical team and it provides them a means to service their debt.
Great Point! There are almost no alternative pathways for unmatched U.S. citizens and LPRs. You have to go back to school in order to utilize your medical knowledge. Such a waste of good talent that could easily fill in as a PA or LPN. There is Assistant Physicians in Missouri but this is still lacking Medicare payment approval so pay rates are close to minimum wage and there are restrictions for who can utilize this based on YOG and exam dates. PD's tell unmatched docs to go get clinical experience but don't realize how hard that is without malpractice insurance.
 
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Perhaps you are unaware that many FMGs come from places like Cambridge or Aga Khan to name but two, some of the best medical schools in the world?
I am fine with that but there should be a separate match for FMGs after AMGs.
 

Mad Jack

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Higher test scores don't mean you will give better care. You have no evidence of that. Another myth being propagated. Please enlighten me if you have a paper that goes into how to determine who will give the best care. Where did you get your 98% stat? Locals who have higher culture competence, close ties to their patients and better communication ability I think would give better care. This is an opinion.
IMGs are more likely to serve underserved areas and populations that US grads don't want to or don't care to serve, precisely because they have no ties to any particular community. In fact, they practice in underserved areas at three timss the rate of US grads. Board pass rates correlate with Step 1 scores and we don't want people coming into our programs that won't pass their boards because it 1- seriously limits their ability to practice and 2- can get our programs shut down. Furthermore, many of the people who don't get ranked have disciplinary issues or other red flags, and we know that poor behavior in medical school correlates with board actions against physicians later.
 
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deleted1090645

IMGs are more likely to serve underserved areas and populations that US grads don't want to or don't care to serve, precisely because they have no ties to any particular community. In fact, they practice in underserved areas at three timss the rate of US grads. Board pass rates correlate with Step 1 scores and we don't want people coming into our programs that won't pass their boards because it 1- seriously limits their ability to practice and 2- can get our programs shut down. Furthermore, many of the people who don't get ranked have disciplinary issues or other red flags, and we know that poor behavior in medical school correlates with board actions against physicians later.
I live in an underserved community and can't practice. So I do want to practice in rural family practice. I know 500+ unmatched doctors that would do the same. This mechanism to place FMGs into these roles is outdated and needs to be better regulated. All that stuff about step scores may affect the program if they don't pass their boards has truth to it. Fair, but nothing you said there has to do with better care being given by those with higher test scores which was your initial point. I think it is fair to say this is flip flopping and you don't have proof that higher board scores correlate with better care. Also, where is your proof on the 98% of FMG's stay? I mean I would imagine a lot of them stay because of medical reimbursement in America which is the impetus to come in the first place but there is nothing stopping them from leaving with $450,000 of U.S. tax payer funded training in their pocket. I would also point out that the unmatched would do residency for free if it resulted in them having the chance to practice.
 
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The fact that you believe this just kills your argument.
I would contend that any accredited allopathic med school in the United States gives you roughly equivalent education and training as any other accredited allopathic med school in the US.

I know thats not what the person you’re quoting was saying, but I thought I would throw that in there. Do some schools here in the US have more resources than some others? Of course, but Im sure a great (and not so great) physician can come from any US medical school.

Edit: I excluded Osteopathic edication since I am not as familiar with the philosphy and education style. Plenty of succesful physicians are Osteopaths, even the personal doctor to President Biden is a DO.
 
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deleted1090645

I would contend that any accredited allopathic med school in the United States gives you roughly equivalent education and training as any other accredited allopathic med school in the US.

I know thats not what the person you’re quoting was saying, but I thought I would throw that in there. Do some schools here in the US have more resources than some others? Of course, but Im sure a great (and not so great) physician can come from any US medical school.
A great physician can come from any Medical School with equivalent training. That is why we have ACGME to make sure they are equivalent. There are plenty of great medical schools in other countries and I wouldn't look down my nose at someone who went to another country to study. The Medical curriculum is very similar no matter where you go to school especially for basic sciences. I would say your schools involvement in clinical rotations is an important factor and also how much they help with mentorship for residency is also a plus for U.S. schools.
 

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I live in an underserved community and can't practice. So I do want to practice in rural family practice. I know 500+ unmatched doctors that would do the same. This mechanism to place FMGs into these roles is outdated and needs to be better regulated. All that stuff about step scores may affect the program if they don't pass their boards has truth to it. Fair, but nothing you said there has to do with better care being given by those with higher test scores which was your initial point. I think it is fair to say this is flip flopping and you don't have proof that higher board scores correlate with better care.
I'll just put it this way- I don't think a guy with a 198 on Step 1 is going to be breaking any ground in revolutionizing medicine. The guy with multiple BMJ pubs and a 260 from India just might. I would rather that guy come to the states where he can obtain the resources needed to do research and change the world. The smarter the people we have in the field, the better off we will be. If I've got an esoteric question I need to work through to save someone's life, like the time we had a patient with an extremely rare 1:100,000 presentation that we caught by putting our heads together and thinking about it really damn hard, how much do you think the US IMG with two board fails on their record is going to contribute to the situation? And I never said they provide better care for patients, merely that they're better doctors more often than not and they're the ones I want by my side. Because being a doctor isn't just about patient care, it's about education, research, leadership, and knowledge, amongst other things. I want the person that brings a much of that to the table as possible, not the guy who happens to be from Jersey.
 
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Moko

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You guys realize you are bullies right @Mad Jack , @Med Ed , @Moko , @candbgirl , @Damson ?! You should be pulling up your fellow colleagues if they are drowning rather than pushing their heads further under the water. MD = MD no matter where you went to school. We should prioritizing Citizens and LPRs first. There should be separate matches. One for U.S. citizens and LPRs and then one for doctors from other countries. The economic impact of not doing that is my $450,000 in student loans falling on the U.S. taxpayer because I cant pay it back plus $150,000 per residency year of taxpayer money x 3 years or more for the international doctor who can chose to leave the country after training. This is an economic loss for our country of $900,000. It is really easy to see why it is important for the U.S. to prioritize U.S. citizens and LPRs, not to mention not hiring U.S. citizens and LPRs first breaks immigration laws. I am not sure how it has gone on this long but hopefully it ends soon. Regardless, I do not know why everyone here would not be in support of increasing residency slots through legislation. It seems like a win win for everyone. Please write to your Senators and House Representatives to support reintroduction of The Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019.
From what I've seen, a fair number of us are sympathetic to those in your situation as Caribbean schools prey on the desperation and naivetes of potential students. Most posters here have also been civil and have made factual statements that are backed by publicly available data. Just because you don't like the facts, doesn't mean that those stating them are "bullies". Perhaps somewhat ironically, the most outrageous statements and accusations in this thread have actually been made by you (e.g. saying that someone should be stripped of their license for disagreeing with you).

I would strongly advise being more introspective and less defensive in your dealings with others. This is, believe it or not, actual advice meant to prevent you from digging yourself into another hole in the future. Medicine does not always attract the most level-headed people, and hotheadedness (as you have shown here) can get trainees in real trouble during residency.

Unfortunately, your situation is far from unique. The reality is that many students take out loans to attend expensive private colleges obtaining fairly useless degrees that do not prepare them for life after college. These people are also stuck with large educational debts with no way to pay it off (at least with a MD, there are still non-clinical pathways that you can pursue). There is a very real problem with our education system and it requires significant reform that is unlikely to occur before the bubble bursts. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound in cure. In my opinion, there is no reason why anyone should have been allowed to take out $450k in loans to pursue a degree at a school with such an atrocious track record. Personally, I am against any measure that would further encourage and subsidize the profiteering and expansion of these offshore schools at the taxpayers' expense. Federal funding to these schools should be cut.
 
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I'll just put it this way- I don't think a guy with a 198 on Step 1 is going to be breaking any ground in revolutionizing medicine. The guy with multiple BMJ pubs and a 260 from India just might. I would rather that guy come to the states where he can obtain the resources needed to do research and change the world. The smarter the people we have in the field, the better off we will be. If I've got an esoteric question I need to work through to save someone's life, like the time we had a patient with an extremely rare 1:100,000 presentation that we caught by putting our heads together and thinking about it really damn hard, how much do you think the US IMG with two board fails on their record is going to contribute to the situation? And I never said they provide better care for patients, merely that they're better doctors more often than not and they're the ones I want by my side. Because being a doctor isn't just about patient care, it's about education, research, leadership, and knowledge, amongst other things. I want the person that brings a much of that to the table as possible, not the guy who happens to be from Jersey.
Ok these are all your opinions. Thank you for those.
 
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deleted1090645

From what I've seen, a fair number of us are sympathetic to those in your situation as Caribbean schools prey on the desperation and naivetes of potential students. Most posters here have also been civil and have made factual statements that are backed by publicly available data. Just because you don't like the facts, doesn't mean that those stating them are "bullies". Perhaps somewhat ironically, the most outrageous statements and accusations in this thread have actually been made by you (e.g. saying that someone should be stripped of their license for disagreeing with you).

I would strongly advise being more introspective and less defensive in your dealings with others. This is, believe it or not, actual advice meant to prevent you from digging yourself into another hole in the future. Medicine does not always attract the most level-headed people, and hotheadedness (as you have shown here) can get trainees in real trouble during residency.

Unfortunately, your situation is far from unique. The reality is that many students take out loans to attend expensive private colleges obtaining fairly useless degrees that do not prepare them for life after college. These people are also stuck with large educational debts with no way to pay it off (at least with a MD, there are still non-clinical pathways that you can pursue). There is a very real problem with our education system and it requires significant reform that is unlikely to occur before the bubble bursts. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound in cure. In my opinion, there is no reason why anyone should have been allowed to take out $450k in loans to pursue a degree at a school with such an atrocious track record. Personally, I am against any measure that would further encourage and subsidize the profiteering and expansion of these offshore schools at the taxpayers' expense. Federal funding to these schools should be cut.
I think you are taking my comments out of context. My comment about stripping his license was in regard to him blaming unmatched and not wanting to help other doctors in need and the ethical/moral implications of that. The fact that doctors are actively blaming 6,570 unmatched U.S. citizen doctors rather than attempting to help them with the many thread ideas I have posted is egregious. I think you and others are bullying because you are all repeating the same things and teaming up on the only person in the chat that has a difference of opinion with you (definition of bullying). This was a level headed decision. I am not angry. Please think about ways you may curtail your behavior to help the unmatched and bring light to this issue rather than blaming unmatched doctors for being in the situation they are in. For example, how many of those 6,570 doctors deserve it? How many of the 20,000 plus doctors that have been left behind deserve it? Why do you think that you get decide who deserves to be a doctor? Making judgements like this is purely and unequivocally not a helpful way to approach the situation. Also very unfortunate to see this from people who have taken the Hippocratic oath. Your comments are not not helpful and more harmful in my opinion.
 
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Moko

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I think you are taking my comments out of context. My comment about stripping his license was in regard to him blaming unmatched and not wanting to help other doctors in need and the ethical/moral implications of that. The fact that doctors are actively blaming 6,570 unmatched U.S. citizen doctors rather than attempting to help them with the many thread ideas I have posted is egregious. I think you and others are bullying because you are all repeating the same things and teaming up on the only person in the chat that has a difference of opinion with you (definition of a bully). This was a level headed decision. I am not angry. Please think about ways you may curtail your behavior to help the unmatched and bring light to this issue rather than blaming unmatched doctors for being in the situation they are in. For example, how many of those 6,570 doctors deserve it? How many of the 20,000 plus doctors that have been left behind deserve it? Why do you think that you get decide who deserves to be a doctor? Making judgements like this is purely and unequivocally not a helpful way to approach the situation. Also very unfortunate to see this from people who have taken the Hippocratic oath. Your comments are not not helpful and more harmful in my opinion.
Some people are simply unteachable and cannot be helped. Best of luck to you.
 
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deleted1090645

They're why every time this legislation is pushed PDs and physician groups push back, it's bad for our country and the profession
If that is true, it is funny that those PDs and physician groups think they know what is good for the profession because those decisions are not being made scientifically with evidence to back them up. The bottom line is we need all of our doctors and should be helping the ones who haven't matched.
 
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deleted1090645

Some people are simply unteachable and cannot be helped. Best of luck to you.
I guess so. Good luck with your future endeavors and please try to help your fellow citizens and unmatched doctors if you have the chance.
Goodnight.
 
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Mad Jack

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If that is true, it is funny that those PDs and physician groups think they know what is good for the profession because those decisions are not being made scientifically with evidence to back them up. The bottom line is we need all of our doctors and should be helping the ones who haven't matched.
The number of doctors is equal either way, the question is only where they come from and where they practice. Given that this nation has a crisis in underserved areas and community health clinics and that non-US IMGs fill these positions three times more often and have higher chances of passing the boards (thus keeping your program from being shuttered and costing the country doctors for years), the evidence is clear. Pick the best candidate, and often, that candidate will be a non-US IMG that will help in keeping your program afloat and helping you serve the communities that need it most
 
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RJ McReady

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The bottom line is we need all of our doctors and should be helping the ones who haven't matched.
We need doctors. Qualified, vetted doctors. Just because you have an MD does not make you that.
Residency program directors are not stupid. They look at everything. Including school, scores, background, etc. If there are US IMG’s that deserve a position they will most likely get it, based on specific criteria and standards. If you disagree with those standards, take it up with the residency programs, yeah? But not every unmatched MD deserves a Residency position just because there is a perceived physician shortage, which is the position you are advocating.
 
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deleted1090645

We need doctors. Qualified, vetted doctors. Just because you have an MD does not make you that.
Residency program directors are not stupid. They look at everything. Including school, scores, background, etc. If there are US IMG’s that deserve a position they will most likely get it, based on specific criteria and standards. If you disagree with those standards, take it up with the residency programs, yeah? But not every unmatched MD deserves a Residency position just because there is a perceived physician shortage, which is the position you are advocating.
Listen, I am a qualified, vetted doctor but have gone unmatched after graduating from medical school and all of my USMLEs. Remember 61% match rate that started this up from 50% in recent years? All of that is fine and good but I don't come from money and I didn't have support to apply to residency. I was already tapped out financially after applying for three years. I couldn't find clinical training and I took a position in research which took a long time to turn into a publication. My point was that we should not be charging people $3000 a year and filtering them out when they have no means of paying or improving their application. This prioritizes people who have family money or people of a higher social standing. I am talking on here about ways to change the system because I thought I would be dealing with open minded individuals who could empathize with others and because this is an open forum. I guess you all just want to hear people parroting back your own views rather than listening to someone who has gone through a difficult situation and has come out the other side with different views because of the environmental exposures they have had. I do think that every unmatched U.S. citizen MD and LPR deserves a chance at residency and it is unfortunate that you don't. Whatever the issue is we should be there to help them through it and at least give them a chance to finish their training for many reasons but mainly because it should make you feel like a decent human being.
 
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KnightDoc

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We need doctors. Qualified, vetted doctors. Just because you have an MD does not make you that.
Residency program directors are not stupid. They look at everything. Including school, scores, background, etc. If there are US IMG’s that deserve a position they will most likely get it, based on specific criteria and standards. If you disagree with those standards, take it up with the residency programs, yeah? But not every unmatched MD deserves a Residency position just because there is a perceived physician shortage, which is the position you are advocating.
Actually, the position being advocated, which lurks just below the surface, with OP's redefinition of American Medical Graduate as a US citizen with a MD degree, is that all US citizens with MD degrees and passing test scores should be matched before any non-US candidates, apparently including those who graduated from Harvard as well as any school in their home country. So, while increasing residency slots would certainly help, his bigger issue is using merit as a metric as opposed to citizenship, and not treating Caribbean MDs as equivalent to LCME accredited ones.

Unfortunately, OP is around 4 years too late (apparently this wasn't his issue then! :cool:), because Stephen Miller, Trump and the Republican Congress of 2017 might have actually been receptive to something like this, but, whatever.
 
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deleted1090645

The number of doctors is equal either way, the question is only where they come from and where they practice. Given that this nation has a crisis in underserved areas and community health clinics and that non-US IMGs fill these positions three times more often and have higher chances of passing the boards (thus keeping your program from being shuttered and costing the country doctors for years), the evidence is clear. Pick the best candidate, and often, that candidate will be a non-US IMG that will help in keeping your program afloat and helping you serve the communities that

Actually, the position being advocated, which lurks just below the surface, with OP's redefinition of American Medical Graduate as a US citizen with a MD degree, is that all US citizens with MD degrees and passing test scores should be matched before any non-US candidates, apparently including those who graduated from Harvard as well as any school in their home country. So, while increasing residency slots would certainly help, his bigger issue is using merit as a metric as opposed to citizenship, and not treating Caribbean MDs as equivalent to LCME accredited ones.

Unfortunately, OP is around 4 years too late (apparently this wasn't his issue then! :cool:), because Stephen Miller, Trump and the Republican Congress of 2017 might have actually been receptive to something like this, but, whatever.
It doesn't matter what the government thinks right? It more has to do with the private non-profits that run things. I think we don't prioritize U.S. citizens and LPRs as every other developed nation in the world does because people are making so much money the way things are currently set up.
 

RJ McReady

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. I do think that every unmatched U.S. citizen MD deserves a chance at residency
Yes
I’m not disagreeing with that. And they have applied and been rejected. For a reason. People can and should apply to their hearts content. Applications cost money to review. Whether or not fees are appropriate or fair/discriminatory, is a seperate discussion.
But if they don’t match, there is usually a reason for that. It is not some conspiracy to limit US IMG’s. And suddenly giving residency positions to every MD that wants one is not the answer.
 
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RJ McReady

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I would be dealing with open minded individuals who could empathize with others and because this is an open forum. I guess you all just want to hear people parroting back your own views rather than listening to someone who has gone through a difficult situation and has come out the other side with different views because of the environmental exposures they have had.
I doubt that you will find any more open minded people then those that are on the SDN forum. I think that your attitude and accusatory nature turns people off. If you are looking for empathy, I would try to change the way that you are expressing your message. Just my opinion.
 
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Mad Jack

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It doesn't matter what the government thinks right? It more has to do with the private non-profits that run things. I think we don't prioritize U.S. citizens and LPRs as every other developed nation in the world does because people are making so much money the way things are currently set up.
Whether they pay a US citizen or an IMG doesn't matter, the money is provided by the US government through Medicare with the goal of treating Medicare patients officially. Everything else is secondary.
 
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deleted1090645

Yes
I’m not disagreeing with that. And they have applied and been rejected. For a reason. People can and should apply to their hearts content. Applications cost money to review. Whether or not fees are appropriate or fair/discriminatory, is a seperate discussion.
But if they don’t match, there is usually a reason for that. It is not some conspiracy to limit US IMG’s. And suddenly giving residency positions to every MD that wants one is not the answer.
So you think that people who graduate from schools outside the U.S. are just worse applicants and that is why the match rate is so low. I thought it was common knowledge that U.S. grads are prioritized. The reason they are being rejected is because there are not enough spots. That is what I am getting at and why I am suggesting the solutions I have suggested. All I am saying is that there are plenty of good applicants in the 6,570 U.S. citizen unmatched population and when doctors are burning out from COVID and need help it is a real shame we haven't trained them to help.
 
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deleted1090645

Whether they pay a US citizen or an IMG doesn't matter, the money is provided by the US government through Medicare with the goal of treating Medicare patients officially. Everything else is secondary.
Yes it does. I detailed the economic loss's that make it matter. I'll say it again two matches. 1 for U.S. citizens LPRs and then for FMG's like everywhere else.
 

Mad Jack

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Yes it does. I detailed the economic loss's that make it matter. I'll say it again two matches. 1 for U.S. citizens LPRs and then for FMG's like everywhere else.
The net economic activity created by someone putting their money into the economy rather than student loans is much higher. The better solution would be to stop offering loans for students going overseas and forgive the loans of those that already have done so and not matched.
 
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