IMGs looking down on DOs...

[desijigga]

The other day at a friends wedding, I came across some Indian/Carib IMGs that had the nerve to bash my DO degree. Not like these guys were that old all of them had to be in there 30s or early 40s. My dad introduced me to them and when I was asked what medical school I attend I said KCOM. First off they didn't even know where that was (I guess noone does Kirksville is a small town ), and when I said its a DO school, they acted surprised that is a legit physicians degree. After I explained to them that in America there are 2 degrees awarded, DO and MD, and the schools are basically the same expect we learn OMM which is a form of manipulative medicine on top of all the basic regular sciences. (One guy was intent on trying to convince my dad that I was going to a chiropractic school, good thing my Pops ain't that dumb since he knows alot about DO schools. And I am lucky to have Indian parents that let me choose medicine instead of forcing me into it). After 20 minutes of there bantering about why I didn't just go abroad for medical school and get a MD degree. I had to excuse myself, because I realized no matter how much I explain to these idiots they won't understand.

My beef is this doesn't seem to be the first time I have come across IMGs that think they are better just because they have a MD on their coat. Its sad that so many parents send their kids to the caribbean, china, india, pakistan. Wake up, going overseas basically kills your chances of getting anything else besides FM, IM... and in a few years even those will be very hard to get into. Also I hear you have to pay ridiculous amount of donation just to get in to these abroad schools (India I hear you have to put down 100K for entrance fee, and +30K a year for every year of medical school all this on NO LOANS).

Also I have read some IMGs complain on SDN that it is unfair that despite their stellar Step 1/2 stats why are they still biased when it comes to the Match. I am sorry but I have to agree with the way PDs do this, hell as American Medical Students we should be given first preference. We busted our ass to stay in America, and there has to be a system that rewards us for this.

Just venting, fellow SDNers, I realize not all IMGs are like this. I have also met quite a few that are really smart, and will be really good doctors.

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[tkyle56]

Don't Worry about it. Every American physician knows that any U.S. DO school is better than the Caribbean schools. Whenever I had friends ask if I would go to a Caribbean med school I told them that if I didn't get into a US med school then it meant that I was not smart enough to handle patients lives. I knew a girl that dropped Organic 3 times and a few months back she told me that she had just been accepted to a Caribbean med school and she had not even completed organic 1 yet. I thought to myself if she ever walks in to my exam room and is my physician I am leaving the hospital.

In addition international graduates are no longer awarded the MD degree if that is not the degree that their school awarded them. I have read this on numerous post and this is a new rule change. Of course any IMG that have been awarded the MD already can keep it but from my understanding the IMG that were awarded a MBBS and are starting residency this year will not be labeled as MD but as MBBS which makes sense because that is the degree they were awarded.

 

[VCU07]

Are you sure? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the eligibility of the MD conferral wrong, but I don't think that's the case in NY. BTW, in NY, a little less than half of the practicing doctors are foreign grads. However, I should mention that many of the doctors in the NY hospital that I volunteer at do have "MBBS" after their name.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/med-mdconferral.htm

From what I have read and heard, this is true. Many IMG here that advertise their practice in a local publication now have MBBS behind their names with ( US MD equivalent) next to it. Makes sense.

 

[swamprat]

Are you sure? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the eligibility of the MD conferral wrong, but I don't think that's the case in NY. BTW, in NY, a little less than half of the practicing doctors are foreign grads. However, I should mention that many of the doctors in the NY hospital that I volunteer at do have "MBBS" after their name.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/med-mdconferral.htm

You contradicted yourself there, so they do have MBBS degrees, not converted MDs

 

[Styria]

That's not what I meant. In the past, foreign MBBS docs were eligible to be awarded the MD degree in NY state. Nowadays, I'm not sure because 1. I've noticed that there are docs with "MBBS" on their coats and IDs 2. NY law (I THINK) says that MBBS degrees can still become MD degrees, unless I'm not interpreting the eligibility requirements on the site correctly.

The University of the State of New York (USNY) is a massive university system that includes every school district, the Education Department, the SUNY and CUNY systems, libraries, museums, etc. Who knows what the Board of Regents is empowered to do or what's grandfathered in.

As that page reads, the Board of Regents can confer the MD degree. Anyone who meets those conditions is eligible. But that doesn't mean the Regents aren't cutting back on conferring it or that IMGs aren't just practicing under the MBBS degree without bothering to obtain an MD (since you have to have a license anyway to apply). As far as New York is concerned, it would be an actual MD degree and not just honorary. I don't know if the Regents themselves confer the MD degree for SUNY Upstate and Downstate, but even my high school diploma is from them.

I'm surprised the state doesn't increase the application fee, since they've even run out of paper PCRs for EMTs.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

Whenever I had friends ask if I would go to a Caribbean med school I told them that if I didn't get into a US med school then it meant that I was not smart enough to handle patients lives. I knew a girl that dropped Organic 3 times and a few months back she told me that she had just been accepted to a Caribbean med school and she had not even completed organic 1 yet. I thought to myself if she ever walks in to my exam room and is my physician I am leaving the hospital.

I find your comment that if you don't attend a US school you are not "smart enough" to handle people's lives, particularly offensive.

The day will come when your boss is a US citizen that attended a foreign medical school.

 

[sunset823]

The other day at a friends wedding, I came across some Indian/Carib IMGs that had the nerve to bash my DO degree. Not like these guys were that old all of them had to be in there 30s or early 40s. My dad introduced me to them and when I was asked what medical school I attend I said KCOM. First off they didn't even know where that was (I guess noone does Kirksville is a small town ), and when I said its a DO school, they acted surprised that is a legit physicians degree. After I explained to them that in America there are 2 degrees awarded, DO and MD, and the schools are basically the same expect we learn OMM which is a form of manipulative medicine on top of all the basic regular sciences. (One guy was intent on trying to convince my dad that I was going to a chiropractic school, good thing my Pops ain't that dumb since he knows alot about DO schools. And I am lucky to have Indian parents that let me choose medicine instead of forcing me into it). After 20 minutes of there bantering about why I didn't just go abroad for medical school and get a MD degree. I had to excuse myself, because I realized no matter how much I explain to these idiots they won't understand.

Why am I not surprised? Most Indians don't understand anything new or different. That's why two of my cousins are in the caribbean without even attempting to apply to DO schools. And there are plenty of Indians in foreign/carib schools who should never have gone to med school in the first place, though they'll probably graduate due to familial and peer pressure (what else is there to do in life? law? journalist? ARTIST? *gasp*) and make unhappy, subpar physicians.

I beat through the maze, and though I'm in med school, I came later, for my own reasons, and actually enjoy it now.

So, if you're happy, if your parents (who seem open-minded, like mine, which is good, albeit rare) are happy, ignore all the rest of them. Oh, yeah, and skip out on all 'pure' Indian weddings, not been to one in years (the last was my brother's, which I sorta had to be at). Indian people are their most irritating and judgmental at weddings. Of course, it's even worse for me as a woman.

 

[VCU07]

Why am I not surprised? Most Indians are reactionary idiots at any age who don't understand anything new or different. That's why two of my cousins are in the caribbean without even attempting to apply to DO schools. And there are plenty of Indians in foreign/carib schools who should never have gone to med school in the first place, though they'll probably graduate due to familial and peer pressure (what else is there to do in life? law? journalist? ARTIST? *gasp*) and make unhappy, subpar physicians.

I beat through the maze, and though I'm in med school, I came later, for my own reasons, and actually enjoy it now.

So, if you're happy, if your parents (who seem open-minded, like mine, which is good, albeit rare) are happy, ignore all the rest of them. Oh, yeah, and skip out on all 'pure' Indian weddings, not been to one in years (the last was my brother's, which I sorta had to be at) and never been happier to not see people I dislike 🙂 Indian people are their most irritating and judgmental at weddings. Of course, it's even worse for me as a woman.

While I think your post is a little harsh, I do agree with you on some points. I am of indian heritage and was pushed into the big three (i.e. medicine/pharmacy/engineering). When I decided to go back to med. school and told my parents I had been accepted to DO program they argued for me to just forget it and live my life as a pharmacist since I didn't get into a MD program. Further, my uncle, a very well known physician (MD), completely set out to destroy me for attending DO. He continues to try to destroy my reputation and put down my parents. Long story short, my parents have accepted me attending DO school after some education on what exactly it is. They had no idea that DO=MD. My uncle will continue to bad mouth me as he senses I am encroaching on his terrority of being the only physician in the family. There are reasons for why I went the DO route and not being "good enough" to get into an MD school was not one of them. I could have retaken the MCAT and applied again, but the timing was right for my family this yr (all sorts of personal things).

 

[tkyle56]

I find your comment that if you don't attend a US school you are not "smart enough" to handle people's lives, particularly offensive.

The day will come when your boss is a US citizen that attended a foreign medical school.

You can be offended all you want, that is my opinion. The MBBS is not a graduate degree, it is a Bachelors degree that takes 6 years to obtain while both MD and DO are both graduate degrees that take 7-8 years. Based upon the difference in schooling I would say that DO=MD more than MBBS equals MD.

I was accepted to an MD school but it was brand new and the DO school I am attending is just flat out a better school. It amuses me when I hear people say DOs can't do surgery or DOs aren't real physicians. DOs are held responsible for the patient's life just as MDs are, DOs are responsible for doing every procedure and surgery as MDs are, so how does it makes sense that we have the same responsibility but not the same respect. The other day I was talking to a coworker of my wife's who told me that DOs can't perform surgery. After I told him that yes DOs can and that I will be doing surgical rotations and hopefully go into a surgical residency he still told me that DOs could not perform surgery and I was wrong. I thought to myself here is a salesman who knows nothing about medicine telling me what I can and can't do, how much does his opinion of what I can't do really matter. After realizing this I decided that I could find better uses of my time than talk to this ***** so I walked away.

In the end I have learned not to worry about people that are ignorant to the fact that DOs do the same thing MDs do.

 

[tkyle56]

I find your comment that if you don't attend a US school you are not "smart enough" to handle people's lives, particularly offensive.

The day will come when your boss is a US citizen that attended a foreign medical school.

I don't know how it is in the country you attend med school but in the U.S. the majority of physicians own their practice and are their own boss so I doubt long after residency I will even have a boss.

 

[docdoc121]

Why am I not surprised? Most Indians are reactionary idiots at any age who don't understand anything new or different. That's why two of my cousins are in the caribbean without even attempting to apply to DO schools. And there are plenty of Indians in foreign/carib schools who should never have gone to med school in the first place, though they'll probably graduate due to familial and peer pressure (what else is there to do in life? law? journalist? ARTIST? *gasp*) and make unhappy, subpar physicians.

I beat through the maze, and though I'm in med school, I came later, for my own reasons, and actually enjoy it now.

So, if you're happy, if your parents (who seem open-minded, like mine, which is good, albeit rare) are happy, ignore all the rest of them. Oh, yeah, and skip out on all 'pure' Indian weddings, not been to one in years (the last was my brother's, which I sorta had to be at) and never been happier to not see people I dislike 🙂 Indian people are their most irritating and judgmental at weddings. Of course, it's even worse for me as a woman.

Indians in America have the highest educational qualifications, highest incomes, highest number of professional and managerial and related occupations, lowest divorce/separation rates, mostly are bi or tri-lingual, and the majority of foreign doctors are from India. You want all this without the any side effects? From what I've noticed, Indians place education, career, wealth, culture (family life, language, religion, customs, etc) as key components to their lives ie they want to lead the best lives possible in America that they likely didn't have back in India. Bickering, status/wealth consciousness, comparing one's children to others, gossip, jealousy, wanting their daughters to "marry a good boy and into a good family" between the ages of 24-28 (you know, when the biological clock is peaking), and everything else is an outcome of all that. I have quite a few Indian friends, so I know. Oh, and Indian weddings are the most fun I've had at ANY wedding.

 

[Colbert]

Indians in America have the highest educational qualifications, highest incomes, highest number of professional and managerial and related occupations, lowest divorce/separation rates, mostly are bi or tri-lingual, and the majority of foreign doctors are from India. You want all this without the any side effects? From what I've noticed, Indians place education, career, wealth, culture (family life, language, religion, customs, etc) as key components to their lives ie they want to lead the best lives possible in America that they likely didn't have back in India. Bickering, status/wealth consciousness, comparing one's children to others, gossip, jealousy, wanting their daughters to "marry a good boy and into a good family" between the ages of 24-28 (you know, when the biological clock is peaking), and everything else is an outcome of all that. I have quite a few Indian friends, so I know. Oh, and Indian weddings are the most fun I've had at ANY wedding.

Well then I guess that makes you the authority on this issue.

 

[docdoc121]

Can there even be an authority on an issue like this? I'll rephrase, *I PROBABLY know.

 

[tkim]

I don't know how it is in the country you attend med school but in the U.S. the majority of physicians own their practice and are their own boss so I doubt long after residency I will even have a boss.

Depends on what kind of practice you have. Outpatient, solo practice, sure - you da boss.

Any group practice, or hospital-based where you answer to the department chairman, the CMO, or anyone else that can get your privileges revoked, not so much.

Everyone has a boss, some people just don't know it.

 

[st2205]

I am a huge fan of shrimp tikka masala (hot) with garlic naan. It's a shame it isn't found in Kirksville. I would love to hit up an Indian wedding.

 

[st2205]

Oh, and chicken pakoras. Now I'm hungry.

 

[gocatgo]

Oh, and chicken pakoras. Now I'm hungry.

Mmm,I love Indian food too.

 

[vicinihil]

Whether or not DO is better or MD from abroad is a silly debate because depending on where you're coming from, you're going to vouch for that side.

A better debate should look at two questions. One is who is a more competent physician (not which is harder to get into). But competency can only be assessed during practice in a hospital.

The next question really should address which is more advantageous to have. From a clinic perspective, if you own your own family clinic, then having the MD is probably more advantageous than having a DO at the end of your name just because the general American public still recognizes MD as a "doctor" and DO as far as most people know, is a mystery, often confused with OD. I have medical school friends who still do not know what DO is. In terms of which is better for residency purposes, then I would believe DO because like a poster mentioned, coming from an American medical school gives you the upper hand when compared to an IMG coming in with a MD. This status alone is more important than board scores or school grades.

 

[IandIatrogenic]

Whether or not DO is better or MD from abroad is a silly debate because depending on where you're coming from, you're going to vouch for that side.

A better debate should look at two questions. One is who is a more competent physician (not which is harder to get into). But competency can only be assessed during practice in a hospital.

The next question really should address which is more advantageous to have. From a clinic perspective, if you own your own family clinic, then having the MD is probably more advantageous than having a DO at the end of your name just because the general American public still recognizes MD as a "doctor" and DO as far as most people know, is a mystery, often confused with OD. I have medical school friends who still do not know what DO is. In terms of which is better for residency purposes, then I would believe DO because like a poster mentioned, coming from an American medical school gives you the upper hand when compared to an IMG coming in with a MD. This status alone is more important than board scores or school grades.

I'm not really sure what this opinion is based on besides pure speculation and bias but most laypeople don't even bother to look at the initials at the end of a doctor's name...they look for the "Dr." in front.

And you don't have to believe DO degrees are better for residencies than IMG degrees the statistics show that they are.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

You can be offended all you want, that is my opinion. The MBBS is not a graduate degree, it is a Bachelors degree that takes 6 years to obtain while both MD and DO are both graduate degrees that take 7-8 years. Based upon the difference in schooling I would say that DO=MD more than MBBS equals MD.

I

What about doctors who obtain their MD from the UK?

I go to a Caribbean MD school and never applied to DO schools. I am pretty sure I will be a competent physician in the future. That's why I was offended.

I don't know how it is in the country you attend med school but in the U.S. the majority of physicians own their practice and are their own boss so I doubt long after residency I will even have a boss.

During residency you will have a boss. During Fellowship you will have a boss. Many physicians do not go into private practice right away which means you will have a boss during that time. Many physicians never go into private practice, which means they will have a boss.

Chances are during residency... one of the chairs, deans, heads, attendings, will be a IMG. Go ahead and call them incompetent, but chances are if they made it to their position, they are more than competent. Your ignorance on the matter is simply stunning.

Depends on what kind of practice you have. Outpatient, solo practice, sure - you da boss.

Any group practice, or hospital-based where you answer to the department chairman, the CMO, or anyone else that can get your privileges revoked, not so much.

Everyone has a boss, some people just don't know it.

Exactly.

 

[sunset823]

While I think your post is a little harsh, I do agree with you on some points.

'Harsh' is one of the nicer things that's been said about me, trust me. But yes, your story just proves my point even further that Indians (such as your uncle) tend to stay cooped up in their own narrow-minded world. I don't think you 'encroaching' on him being the only doctor in the family is true, I think everyone expects and wants multiple doctors in the family (i.e., marry a doctor, have all your kids be spewing chemical equations by age 7 and, of course, be doctors, etc., etc.). I just seriously think your uncle, and many others (erroneously) honestly believe a DO is a useless, subpar degree.

Edit: This is not limited to the Indian community, and of course not all of them are like this, but it is still something to consider for future DOs. Patients won't care, but unfortunately some of your colleagues, IMGs included, just might. I think the Indian community is the focus because of the fact they make up a plurality of IMGs in the US.

Indians in America have the highest educational qualifications, highest incomes, highest number of professional and managerial and related occupations, lowest divorce/separation rates, mostly are bi or tri-lingual, and the majority of foreign doctors are from India. You want all this without the any side effects? From what I've noticed, Indians place education, career, wealth, culture (family life, language, religion, customs, etc) as key components to their lives ie they want to lead the best lives possible in America that they likely didn't have back in India. Bickering, status/wealth consciousness, comparing one's children to others, gossip, jealousy, wanting their daughters to "marry a good boy and into a good family" between the ages of 24-28 (you know, when the biological clock is peaking), and everything else is an outcome of all that. I have quite a few Indian friends, so I know. Oh, and Indian weddings are the most fun I've had at ANY wedding.

I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just saying that though my (immediate) family has been as supportive of me as possible within the limits of the Indian community (and possibly allowed me to become the way I am), I have seen many pushy, neurotic, albeit wealthy Indian families.

Granted, I am highly unusual for an Indian-American, a fiercely individualistic loner, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I am a huge fan of shrimp tikka masala (hot) with garlic naan. It's a shame it isn't found in Kirksville. I would love to hit up an Indian wedding.

Sorry to the OP for thread hijacking, but I suppose this is an interesting spin on the usual MD/DO debate. And yeah, Indian weddings are fantastic if you're NOT INDIAN - if you are, it's just high drama, and, after being through about 5 of them, high boredom. I went to my first Christian (Catholic) wedding last year of a good friend, and I really enjoyed that - the simplicity, the focus on the bride and groom, the fact it's done in 2 hours and you don't need to stick around to socialize with 'aunties'.

 

[group_theory]

Please remember that this is a professional forum that is frequent by many people. While you may discuss the topic at hand, please refrain from over-generalization and stereotypes, especially when it comes to either race or religion.

 

[eNVyKillaBeez]

I'm not really sure what this opinion is based on besides pure speculation and bias but most laypeople don't even bother to look at the initials at the end of a doctor's name...they look for the "Dr." in front.

And you don't have to believe DO degrees are better for residencies than IMG degrees the statistics show that they are.

So you just argued with someone else over their opinion being based on speculation just to drop your own opinion which is also based on speculation?? Haha that's funny

 

[glypha1104]

You can be offended all you want, that is my opinion. The MBBS is not a graduate degree, it is a Bachelors degree that takes 6 years to obtain while both MD and DO are both graduate degrees that take 7-8 years. Based upon the difference in schooling I would say that DO=MD more than MBBS equals MD.

Don't be daft, the MBBS=MD. Both degrees are professional, not academic, meaning under normal circumstances they do not contain a research component. This is similar to situation with the legal degree JD=L.L.B (btw, this was the degree held by Supreme Court Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, William Rehnquist, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and John Paul Stevens, to name a few). Additionally, the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, Edinburgh, and Glasgow all award the MBBS degree to their medical graduates and I highly doubt anyone would be willing to contest the reputation of these universities and the quality of physicians they produce.

 

[VCU07]

Exactly!!! they are both medical school. The difference is most countries don't believe in having a 4 year undergrad education and then doctoral education. They do 2 years of basic prereqs and stuff and then go into medical school.
That's why they use MBBS as their initials rather then MD.

They would not be able to do residency here and be practicing physicians if it was a BS in the sense of our BS or BA degrees.

They are equally doctors. US is one of the few countries that call the degree an MD degree rather then MBBS and a dental degree a DMD or DDS rather then BDS

Sounds a lot like the arguement I used when I was in pharmacy school.

 

[thepoopologist]

If someone looked down on my DO degree I would break them, just like I break the hookers

 

[The Poet Sings]

If someone looked down on my DO degree I would break them, just like I break the hookers

lol@this+your signature (which says "Studying makes me want to kill a hooker 😡", in case anyone in the future sees this and the sig has changed)

 

[PeepsLove]

My father is an MD who didn't even know of the DO program till my older brother got accepted to AZCOM. Another older brother didn't get into an American MD school, didn't apply DO but went to Ross. I was accepted to St. George's but chose AZCOM. All people care about is the initials Dr. From there, they don't care, especially in a hospital setting. By the way, all of the internationally grads that I know when asked where they went to school, say the name of their residency, not the school to avoid saying they went foreign. Personally, I'd rather go DO than foreign MD. (please forgive any typos)

 

[womp]

Don't be daft, the MBBS=MD. Both degrees are professional, not academic, meaning under normal circumstances they do not contain a research component. This is similar to situation with the legal degree JD=L.L.B (btw, this was the degree held by Supreme Court Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, William Rehnquist, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and John Paul Stevens, to name a few). Additionally, the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, Edinburgh, and Glasgow all award the MBBS degree to their medical graduates and I highly doubt anyone would be willing to contest the reputation of these universities and the quality of physicians they produce.

They are equally doctors. US is one of the few countries that call the degree an MD degree rather then MBBS and a dental degree a DMD or DDS rather then BDS

Not exactly. While they might be legally equivalent, the MD is more like a cross between an MBBS and a medical doctorate in Europe. Primary care physicians, general surgeons and nurse practitioners are more like the traditional MBBS, whereas specialists and those who did fellowships are closer to the European medical doctorate. In the US the MD is a terminal degree, in many European countries and China, the MD is also the terminal degree (not the MBBS).

It would be seriously scary to allow American undergrads to get a general medical degree in the US today. The academic standards of American high schools vary way too much (unfortunately the same is true for colleges too, but at least we have the MCAT). There are a few American schools that have a 7-year program direct entry, but they generally accept only the top of the cream of high school students (those who have gotten 5's in just about every AP classes offered and done research as a high schooler). There's no way you're going to convince me that the SAT alone is predictive enough for medicine.

Western European high school standards are higher, so they can get away with giving medical degrees at the undergraduate level. Even still, they also typically only accept the top high school students from the top-level tracks. An average EU student has no chance in getting accepted to a medical program in Western Europe.

In Asian countries, the scores needed to get into medical programs in Asia are generally lower than the scores needed to go into finance, engineering and physical sciences. Thus the caliber of med students is much higher in the US than in Asian countries. US MD >> Asian MBBS.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Someone was saying something a while ago about MBBS not being able to use MD in the use anymore??? Any truth to this?

 

[tkim]

Someone was saying something a while ago about MBBS not being able to use MD in the use anymore??? Any truth to this?

In NY, MBBS + NYS medical license, you can apply for and be awarded and NYS Regents MD degree. However, you can just use MBBS no problem. You cannot use MD interchangeably with MBBS here.