importance of aoa???

[SandP]

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Okay so how important is AOA for competitive specialties? I'm looking for a more updated response. For example, say I do very well on step (>260), honor clinical rotations, and get good research and letters....then does not having AOA matter? I am currently in the top 30-35%. Not getting frequent feedback about my class standing doesn't help either.

please let me know. thanks.

 

[username456789]

It's better to have it than to not.

 

[Manual Disimpaction]

You would really have to try to not get AOA with >260, straight honors and research. Turns out those people get AOA.

 

[SandP]

You would really have to try to not get AOA with >260, straight honors and research. Turns out those people get AOA.

well....don't preclinical grades matter? my grades are good -mid-90s...but that's not the top cut

 

[Amygdarya]

well....don't preclinical grades matter? my grades are good -mid-90s...but that's not the top cut

If they are not "the top cut", what makes you think you're going to get 260+ Step 1 and honor your clinical rotations? I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't understand what makes people think they're suddenly going to jump in their class rank. While there are exeptions, for most people the best predictor of future performance is past/current performance. In other words, your question is moot: either you perform as well as you expect and get AOA, as stated above, or you don't.

 

[Manual Disimpaction]

well....don't preclinical grades matter? my grades are good -mid-90s...but that's not the top cut

Either your school's exams are very easy or you're right where you want to be. I would be surprised if mid 90s didn't put you in striking distance of AOA. People who score >260 generally do very well in pre-clinical years.

 

[mcloaf]

Lol these posts..."guys lets assume the hypothetical but likely outcome that I score a 272 on step 1, honor all rotations, and publish several manuscripts in Nature..."

 

[Moko]

With a >260 step, all honors, and good research and recommendations, it would better to not get AOA. At least then there's something to attribute rejections to when they inevitably come in -- otherwise the only other factor would be your personality -- or lack thereof.

 

[SandP]

Either your school's exams are very easy or you're right where you want to be. I would be surprised if mid 90s didn't put you in striking distance of AOA. People who score >260 generally do very well in pre-clinical years.

Well I can't be sure. Our class rank is not disclosed to us. I.e I got a 94, class mean was 89, std Dev wAs 9... so where do u Think i stand?

 

[musicalfeet]

Well I can't be sure. Our class rank is not disclosed to us. I.e I got a 94, class mean was 89, std Dev wAs 9... so where do u Think i stand?

Wow you guys have high class averages! I have a feeling "do well in preclinical years" is more of a "do the best you can", and since you really can't get that much higher than a 94 (unless it's a perfect), it seems to be okay. Getting 90+ on our exams is reallyyyy difficult and we usually have averages around 75-78%, so in our school, getting 90+ means you're doing really well.

 

[ERDOC555]

Well I can't be sure. Our class rank is not disclosed to us. I.e I got a 94, class mean was 89, std Dev wAs 9... so where do u Think i stand?

Yeah to be honest those grades aren't good for AOA based on the information you provided. A 94 isn't great when it's barely half a standard deviation away from the mean. For AOA I feel like you'd need to be at least 1 SD above mean consistently or more realistically 1.5 if you want to be considered. Most schools only consider the top 15% or 25% for junior and senior year and take only a small portion of those considered.

 

[SandP]

Yeah to be honest those grades aren't good for AOA based on the information you provided. A 94 isn't great when it's barely half a standard deviation away from the mean. For AOA I feel like you'd need to be at least 1 SD above mean consistently or more realistically 1.5 if you want to be considered. Most schools only consider the top 15% or 25% for junior and senior year and take only a small portion of those considered.

idk if our school's grades are bell-curved but this is ridiculous...i have to get an 98% to be in the running? That's why I'm wondering if other factors can make up for not being AOA. I have a good understanding of the material...just not enough to get the few trivial points.

 

[Amygdarya]

And another thing: AOA is supposed to be an honor society that recognizes academic achievement *and* professionalism, leadership and advancement of medicine. But now every gunner shooting for surgical subspecialties or derm feels entitled to it simply because he/she is doing well in class. It wasn't supposed to be a sticker star you get for your homework. Talk about brand dilution.
(AOA Web site also lists "unselfishness" among its ideals. Well, that should rule out about 90% of people who aspire to AOA membership.)
(PS - I'm not bitter because I missed my school's AOA cutoff or anything like that. I'm not even in the running, but I believe that *honor* societies should have standards.)

 

[ERDOC555]

idk if our school's grades are bell-curved but this is ridiculous...i have to get an 98% to be in the running? That's why I'm wondering if other factors can make up for not being AOA. I have a good understanding of the material...just not enough to get the few trivial points.

I can't tell you what grades you'll need but the point is that you'll simply have to try your absolute hardest and at the end of the day if that doesn't get you into the top X% of your class then AOA won't be an option. Also if you happen to be at a top school not being AOA is a lot more justifiable. Can't even begin to imagine how many amazing applicants are non AOA from schools like Harvard.

However on the bright side, the harder you work during preclinical years the better you're likely to do on Step 1.

Also AOA isn't the end all. Yes for Derm 53% of people who matched were AOA but the other 47% were not. If you have an excellent step 1, good research, letters, etc. there is nothing stopping you from matching into whatever specialty you want.

 

[sliceofbread136]

If they are not "the top cut", what makes you think you're going to get 260+ Step 1 and honor your clinical rotations? I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't understand what makes people think they're suddenly going to jump in their class rank. While there are exeptions, for most people the best predictor of future performance is past/current performance. In other words, your question is moot: either you perform as well as you expect and get AOA, as stated above, or you don't.

Shrug, it happens. I was ~260 with first quartile and good research without AOA

 

[Manual Disimpaction]

Well I can't be sure. Our class rank is not disclosed to us. I.e I got a 94, class mean was 89, std Dev wAs 9... so where do u Think i stand?

Jesus dude my class average in pre clinicals was typically high 70s I don't think it ever broke 85.

 

[intheworkings]

Which is better - Junior or Senior AOA?

 

[musicalfeet]

Jesus dude my class average in pre clinicals was typically high 70s I don't think it ever broke 85.

Not sure how you guys do it, but apparently at my school they found that by combining all the subjects and throwing it at you randomly throughout three days, the average goes down by a a LOT. According to some of the upperclassmen, they did separate it by subject back in the day, but the averages were too high (high 80's) so they decided to do it this way so that most of us can't manage to study for everything all at once. However, that does mean that we get a really nice 2-3 days of absolutely no work at all every 5-6 weeks 😀 But the 4-5 days (like now) leading up to the exams suck...and are pretty conducive to panic attacks

 

[ERDOC555]

Not sure how you guys do it, but apparently at my school they found that by combining all the subjects and throwing it at you randomly throughout three days, the average goes down by a a LOT. According to some of the upperclassmen, they did separate it by subject back in the day, but the averages were too high (high 80's) so they decided to do it this way so that most of us can't manage to study for everything all at once. However, that does mean that we get a really nice 2-3 days of absolutely no work at all every 5-6 weeks 😀 But the 4-5 days (like now) leading up to the exams suck...and are pretty conducive to panic attacks

That sounds like a horrible administration...

"Let's intentionally present material in a harder than necessary format so that students perform more poorly and we can get a free pass from writing quality exams that get a decent distribution."

 

[Manual Disimpaction]

Not sure how you guys do it, but apparently at my school they found that by combining all the subjects and throwing it at you randomly throughout three days, the average goes down by a a LOT. According to some of the upperclassmen, they did separate it by subject back in the day, but the averages were too high (high 80's) so they decided to do it this way so that most of us can't manage to study for everything all at once. However, that does mean that we get a really nice 2-3 days of absolutely no work at all every 5-6 weeks 😀 But the 4-5 days (like now) leading up to the exams suck...and are pretty conducive to panic attacks

Nah they just made all the question like 3rd order so you really needed to master basics and have knowledge of the nitty gritty details in order to answer the questions. At the time it was very ****ty for so many people to do ****ty but my class on average rocked step 1

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

And another thing: AOA is supposed to be an honor society that recognizes academic achievement *and* professionalism, leadership and advancement of medicine. But now every gunner shooting for surgical subspecialties or derm feels entitled to it simply because he/she is doing well in class. It wasn't supposed to be a sticker star you get for your homework. Talk about brand dilution.
(AOA Web site also lists "unselfishness" among its ideals. Well, that should rule out about 90% of people who aspire to AOA membership.)
(PS - I'm not bitter because I missed my school's AOA cutoff or anything like that. I'm not even in the running, but I believe that *honor* societies should have standards.)

Some schools still consider things other than grades. At my school, once you qualify by being in the top quartile, volunteering, leadership, and research, etc are the things considered for selection. It's not just who's top 15%. Sometimes the #1 ranked student doesn't get AOA.

 

[intheworkings]

Top 7% at my school get Junior AOA based off pre-clinials.

 

[musicalfeet]

That sounds like a horrible administration...

"Let's intentionally present material in a harder than necessary format so that students perform more poorly and we can get a free pass from writing quality exams that get a decent distribution."

It sucks while studying for it, but I can't imagine having to take an exam and then immediately having class/things to study for it after without having a break. And their argument is that random subjects will be thrown at you in Step, so at that point you need to be able to know everything of every subject anyway.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Top 7% at my school get Junior AOA based off pre-clinials.

God I wish my school was like this haha


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[Amygdarya]

Shrug, it happens. I was ~260 with first quartile and good research without AOA

That's because AOA presumably recognizes things beyond those that benefit your residency application (scores, grades, research) but also what you have contributed to the community. (and by *you* I don't mean you personally) In other words, as I mentioned above, AOA is not supposed to be a sticker star that is automatically given to people with high scores/grades. Unfortunately some schools treat it pretty much like that.

Some schools still consider things other than grades. At my school, once you qualify by being in the top quartile, volunteering, leadership, and research, etc are the things considered for selection. It's not just who's top 15%. Sometimes the #1 ranked student doesn't get AOA.

And that's the way it's supposed to be. In other words, AOA should consider what you have contributed to the community and not just to your residency application.

 

[Azete]

Wait, there are schools that rank based off raw averages? I had no idea.

We rank GPA, the 2-3 folks that still have a 4.0 are tied for #1, and then everyone after that rounded to 2 decimal places (so usually a few more ties down the list). I just assumed this was normal.

Honestly I don't see the logic in ranking by averages because I genuinely don't think there's a knowledge difference between a 93 and a 98. That's like 2 questions on most exams, which easily can be attributed to "was my reasoning the same as the person that wrote the test?" and not necessarily choosing incorrect answers.