Important question regarding HPSP and USUHS and dual citizenship

[adamg]

So I got in contact with an HPSP recruiter and am starting on my application but one thing she mentioned confused me.

I am a naturalized American citizen and I asked her what proof I would need.

She said the naturalization certificate which I have but then she mentioned I would have to renounce my Polish citizenship on the Polish end, (ie go through the Polish embassy in Washington to do this).

Now, I have no problem renouncing Polish citizenship, since I have lived in the US 20 years and only Poland considers me a citizen of their country, (and not an American).

But the thing is that according to international laws I would have to get the President of Poland to agree to my renounciation.

Recently Poland has made any official act a pain in the ass, (getting a pass port renewed means having to fly to the consolate in Chicago twice for example).

So I am afraid that this may take a lot of time or that Poland may refuse to allow me to renounce citizenship.

That seems really ****ed up, that I can't pursue my dream of navy medicine because some ******* in a foreign country.

Its my choice after all and so who cares if Poland says I am a citizen of their country. I say I am a true blue American and isn't that what counts?

To truely make things strange I looked over all of the application material my recruiter emailed me and nowhere does it mention any renounciation requirements.

Does anyone here know if there is a requirement to renounce foreign citizenship in the country that considers you to be a citizen of their country or is being a naturalized citizen of America sufficient?

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[Jolie South]

I am a naturalized citizen and all that was required for the HPSP application was my naturalization certificate.

I have not, to my knowledge, renounced my prior citizenship. My recruiter did not ask me anything about it.

 

[dentalOH]

Here is what the Army requires for those applicants with dual citizenship:

(5) Dual citizenship. Applicants who hold dual
citizenship may not be eligible for a security
clearance. Those who cannot receive a security
clearance cannot hold an AR appointment.
Therefore all applicants who hold dual
citizenship must be willing to renounce their non-
U.S. citizenship. U.S. citizens with dual citizenship
and/or foreign passport must provide
documentation renouncing foreign citizenship
and relinquishing the foreign passport as an
appointment eligibility requirement. They are
ineligible for HPSP entry until this requirement is
met. Procedures for renouncing non-U.S. citizenship:
(a) Applicant signs a notarized letter addressed
to appropriate embassy relinquishing
citizenship and enclosing passport.
(b) Applicant provides HCR copy of the notarized
letter to embassy and Federal Express
receipt or proof from embassy that passport
was relinquished to embassy.
(c) HCR sends copy of Federal Express receipt
and notarized letter or proof from embassy
that passport has been relinquished to embassy
with EPSQ in HPSP application.
(d) HCR sends copy of Federal Express receipt
and notarized letter to embassy with EPSQ.

USAREC Regulation 601-105 Health Professions Scholarship Program Instruction Handbook on Applicant and Selectee Processing

Since it is an issue with security clearances, I would assume that the other services have similar procedures.

 

[Jolie South]

Here is what the Army requires for those applicants with dual citizenship:

USAREC Regulation 601-105 Health Professions Scholarship Program Instruction Handbook on Applicant and Selectee Processing

Since it is an issue with security clearances, I would assume that the other services have similar procedures.

Interesting. I guess my recruiter neglected to investigate that or I renounced my prior citizenship when I was naturalized and just don't remember (though I doubt that).

 

[IgD]

Looks like you guys found a new loophole. If you can't have a security clearance, you can't function in the military. Therefore you will receive administrative separation but have your school paid for!

 

[colbgw02]

I can't add any useful information to this thread, but I just think it's funny that you apparently need the permission of the government whose citizenship you wish to renounce in order to actually renounce it. It seems to me that the Polish government is missing the whole point. This made me think of that Seinfeld episode where George's girlfriend won't let him break up with her.

 

[Sarg's kid]

I can't add any useful information to this thread, but I just think it's funny that you apparently need the permission of the government whose citizenship you wish to renounce in order to actually renounce it. It seems to me that the Polish government is missing the whole point. This made me think of that Seinfeld episode where George's girlfriend won't let him break up with her.

You don't need their permission though. The reg above said only that you have to send them a letter and your passport. What they decide to do with it and how long that takes is their business.

 

[sojourner75]

Agree with Sarg's kid. This is similar to military folks declaring a new residency. The keyword here is the "intent" to make a particular state your home; intent can be established by voter registration, paying tax, or getting a drivers license, in addition to past or future physical presence. The intent to renounce dual citizenship is actually done (and implied) in the naturalization ceremony. By accepting US citizenship, a person in effect "makes a promise" to forfeit his other citizenships. The oath of office taken during the military commissioning ceremony is yet another way of stating the intent (of pledging alligiance to U.S.).

A notorized document is great, but what really matters is YOUR intent and your action (vice the action of said Polish Government). The possession or use of a foreign passport implies that one considers himself a citizen of another country. True story, if a young stud enters a birth country using that country's passport, and if said country has compulsory military service, that person could be pressed into military service even if he has a U.S. passport. If I were you, I would simply punch a hole in my Polish passport (which invalidates it and proves intent to renounce Polish citizenship) and save the mailing cost. Or sell said passport on black market and report to said "pain in the ass" Polish embassy that your passport was stolen, and BTW you are renouncing Polish citizenship thank you very much.

How does a person born in the US prove his citizenship? Why, by acting like a red-neck, Borat, etc. and just generally makes fun of foreigners. How else can we prove that we are true blue Americans?

 

[sojourner75]

Looks like you guys found a new loophole. If you can't have a security clearance, you can't function in the military. Therefore you will receive administrative separation but have your school paid for!

Yes, but first they have to lie to get a commission, then lie several times in the interim, on record, until school is done. Those are UCMJ and felony offenses (in the U.S.) with steep penalties. On second thought, keep the Polish passport as a handy exit strategy.

 

[adamg]

So I finally got an email back from my recruiter. I sent her the army reg stating that a notorized letter renouncing citizenship and a fedex reciept showing that you mailed the letter with the passport is enough.

I asked her if she could send me the navy regs so that when I renounce citizenship I do it 100% per navy regs, (I only have 1 passport to surrender after all).

She sent me for the second time the laws of the world which only says that I would need to get the president of Poland to agree to my renounciation.

She also said that it probably will take months to get through the paper work but I should sent in my application for HPSP anyway.

I have tried calling the consulate about this, (the embassy told me to go through them). The guy in charge of these matters never answers his phone and they don't have email addresses listed on their website.

I get the impression from online research that Poland is a real bitch about allowing people with duel citizenship serve in foreign militaries and I read somewhere it can take several years to go through the process.

But then I found this: from the Airforce recruitment instruction:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/afrecruiting-new.pdf

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

2.21. Requirements for Dual Citizens:​

.

2.21.1. For job classification purposes, the US does not recognize dual citizenship. Individuals who
claim dual citizenship must to renounce their citizenship to another country and relinquish any foreign
passports to qualify for a job requiring an “F” sensitive job code (SJC) or US citizenship only.
2.21.2. Applicants wishing to terminate dual citizenship status must (1) write a statement renouncing
their citizenship to another country prior to job reservation, and (2) mail (using registered or certified
mail) any foreign passports to the respective embassies and provide the postage receipt to MEPS prior to​

EAD.

So it seems that both the Army and AF have the same basic requirements, which probably means that the Navy does too.

I will call my recruiter today, (A LtCmdr who is a health program liazon for the minneapolis regional recruiting HQ) and ask her where I verify this.

Sorry for the long rant, but I am so pissed at the red tape I have to jump through to serve my country.

All because of where I was born, ironically enough in a NATO country and a strong ally of the US.

I sure hope my recruiter is wrong about having to ask Poland for permission because if that is the case I will probably never be able to do it.

But if all I have to do is write a letter and mail my passport then I have no problems.

Hell I would be more than happy to swear on a stack of bibles that I would be willing to kill the president of Poland if so instructed by my commanding officers.

As far as I am concerned I am 100% American and my loyalty lies with no other nation.

My commander in Chief is President Barack Hussein Obama and Poland can go **** itself.

 

[notdeadyet]

She sent me for the second time the laws of the world which only says that I would need to get the president of Poland to agree to my renounciation.

That's odd. She's right in that that's usually the standard to get a country to renounce your citizenship: it has to come from the head of state or a via proxy.

If you want Poland to recognize you are renouncing her citizenship, you need a letter from her President or someone speaking on her President's behalf. But you shouldn't need that for the U.S. to recognize the renunciation. You usually just send in the passport with a letter. You also usually cc: the renunciation letter you sent to your birth country to the U.S. powers that be.

Your recruiters stance sounds a little fishy. I know a handful of Persian-born guys who are currently in the U.S. military. Do you really think that Iran sent a nice letter to the U.S. acknowledging their renunciation of Iranian citizenship?

Bummer, especially about having to give up the Poland citizenship. A lot of people would kill for that, as it's a lifelong work permit for Europe, which many would kill for.

 

[adamg]

Notdeadyet, are your persian friends commissioned officers or just enlisted?

To become a commissioned officer requires renounciation, enlisted personel can keep duel citizenship.

As for the benefits of polish citizenship, sure a passport to work in the EU. My father was shocked and horrified when he discovered I would need to renounce citizenship, my mom too.

But she has come around to my side of viewing things, mainly that I don't want to work in Europe and I do want a career as a Naval Medical Officer.

I plan to stay in the Navy until they force me to retire at 62, which would give me 38 years of service.

In that time my total Naval salary+bonuses+health benefits+ the pension, (85% of base pay= $101,500 annually adjusted for inflation) will come to around $ 5 million or so. Is Polish citizenship worth giving up that? I would say no. Everyone has there price and Uncle Sam has met mine.

I was lucky to be born in a nation with universal healthcare and where my parents had universal higher education.

This allowed me to be vaccinated and healthy and to have parents who always demanded the most of me academically.

But the US has been my home for 20+ years and Poland is just a memory.

I have proudly voted in every single election since I turned 18 and consider it an honor and a privaledge to be able to seve my adopted homeland for as long as I can.

Poland was the nation I was born in, but America is where I choose to live and make my future.

Like millions of immigrants before me this country has been a land of unparelled oppertunity and if renouncing citizenship in the country of my birth is the price of serivce to the nation that has given me so much, then I make that sacrifice without apprehension or remorse in the slightest.

 

[notdeadyet]

Notdeadyet, are your persian friends commissioned officers or just enlisted?

Good point. I know for a fact one of them is enlisted. I can't say as to the others. Good catch.

I was lucky to be born in a nation with universal healthcare and where my parents had universal higher education.

I lived in Poland for about a year, near Katowice. Nothing but great things to say about all my Polish friends.

Keep us posted with your renunciation efforts and powodzenia!

 

[Jolie South]

That sucks about the difficulties that you're having.

I wonder if the requirements for a direct response from the President are contingent upon the other country.

Did she sent you the actual document that states the requirement for a presidential response?

 

[sojourner75]

She sent me for the second time the laws of the world which only says that I would need to get the president of Poland to agree to my renounciation.

This is starting to sound hilarious. I mean, did the president bestowed Polish citizenship on you in the past? No. You were a de-facto Polish by birth, and you ceased to be Polish by publicly stating so, with a Yankee passport in one hand and the Good Book in the other. And what do recruiters care about dual-citizenship unless someone insists on claiming that status? Suffice to show a green card (enlisted) or natualization paper/college degree (officer) and sign on the dotted line. Come to think of it, there is got to be a waiver for dual-citizenship. There is a waiver for everything else.

 

[glamqueen]

LOL at the waiver comment. I wish I had something encouraging to add, but the waiver comment literally made me laugh out loud. I'm learning the military, and some things about it are just funny.

 

[sojourner75]

She sent me for the second time the laws of the world which only says that I would need to get the president of Poland to agree to my renounciation.

This is starting to sound hilarious. I mean, did the president bestowed Polish citizenship on you in the past? No. You were a de-facto Polish by birth, and you ceased to be Polish by publicly stating so, with a Yankee passport in one hand and the Good Book in the other. This is not like you signed a cell phone contract where prematurely ending the contract on your part incurs a penalty. What have you got, a lifetime contract of Polish citizenship?

And what do recruiters care about dual-citizenship unless someone insists on claiming that status? Suffice to show a green card (enlisted) or naturalization paper/college degree (officer) and sign on the dotted line. Come to think of it, there is got to be a waiver for dual-citizenship. There is a waiver for everything else.

And the AF paragraph you found suggests that only those who "claim dual-citizenship" need to renounce the status. You claim to be a true blue American and nothing else, so there is nothing to renounce.

 

[Poison123]

So a bit of a long shot asking 10 years later... But does anyone know how this panned out? This is the same situation I am in right now and I'm worried I'll be disqualified before I even get through the process of renouncing my citizenship because of it.