Important Question!!!

[Laurel]

Pimplepopper et al, let me emphasize that Firebird's religious beliefs are not indicative of all Christians. I, for example, am a member of a rather large Christian faith - the fastest growing in the world - and we do not share the same opinion of contradiction of the Sabbath. Read my posts in this thread and you will see what we believe regarding this dilemma. We really have quite strict beliefs regarding the Sabbath and working in my faith - with the noted exceptions of jobs which save/protect lives as we believe is pointedly explained in the Bible. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that what CoC's believe isn't what the rest of us Christians believe.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Firebird]

Just out of curiosity Laurel, how does your faith (and what denomination is that faith?) interpret the Greek manuscripts when they say to assemble and make collection on the day after the sabbath? Christ mentioned healing on the sabbath, not the day after the sabbath.

 

[Firebird]

Big and bad news about the subject of this post. This is an email I received today from Marshall University's Family Practice Residency Program:

Mr. Hayes:
Betty Adkins, our residency coordinator passed your question about Sunday
morning work hours. Unfortunately we would not be able to accommodate your
religious requirements in this respect. I would very much doubt whether any
of the programs here (or anywhere else) would be able to make such
accommodations. While in many cases during medical school your presence is
not essential to care of patients in need, this is frequently not true
during residency training and even less so during actual practice.

May I urge you to seriously reconsider your choice of profession given your
religious commitment to be unavailable to your patients on Sunday mornings.
Even if you ultimately choose a specialty of medicine that does not require
you to be available to patients on the weekends, the medical training
process will require such availability.

Best wishes as you seek your professional future. I would be happy to
discuss this further with you if you feel it would be helpful.

Assistant Professor
Family and Community Health
******** University School of Medicine

----
Talk about discouragement. This is unfortunate and very disappointing, considering this is the first response I've received from an actual residency program.

Oh well...looks like dentistry for me.


[This message has been edited by Firebird (edited April 13, 2001).]

 

[Winged Scapula]

While I am happy you received some definitive opinion on the subject from a PD, I am sorry that it was not the news you had hoped for. I know this is disappointing to you. I haven't posted in awhile because the discussion was getting a little out of my realm - in knowledge and interest. But I still lurked about to see what the latest news was.

Have you considered contacting a program with a religious affiliation? Loma Linda comes to immediate mind? I am not sure that the answer would be any different but perhaps they might have other suggestions or have dealt with the issue before.

Please do not reconsider until you have an overwhelming consensus from PDs. Since writing back takes so much time, you might get further with a few well placed phone calls.

Best of luck to you...

 

[rdennisjr]

Firebird:
As a long term lurker on this thread, I have to admit I've had a wide range of personal opinions on this one - from disbelief to wonderment to just plain confusion. I'll admit straight out I don't have a perfect solution for you, but just need to put down my thoughts so as to help clarify them for myself if nothing else.
When I first started reading this thread a few weeks ago I thought - dude, get a life - not very polite I know, but it just wasn't sinking in how vital your interpretation of religious needs were. Over time however, I have seen you seriously consider and reject most of the thoughts put forth here on ways you might be able to work things out - but at least you seriously considered them.

I'm an old guy for this thread - 31, and I'm heading to PA school not med school so I have a bit of a different outlook on life in general than most of the crowd perhaps. So - one general comment on life, and then one very off the wall suggestion. First - life is a challange - that is what makes people grow into a better 'self' - either through work or hobby or religion or what ever. Nothing ever works out perfectly - as can be seen every day. However, compromise is a way to get the most good for the least cost. I would really suggest that you sit down with senior leadership in your church who have lived with this religion for many years and see how they have adapted life to fit their religious needs.
On a side note - you mention dentistry as your next choice. I think you are missing a key thing - all careers (and I mean all - physician, dentist, garbage man, architect, race car driver, stay at home parent....) will likely require you to work on some sundays in your life. It's not just physicians who are slaving away on that magical day - teeth get shattered, toilets back up, kids do homework, etc every day every hour, and every minute. As a physician at least, you get to help restore the beauty that your lord has created in the person you are helping - or you help then in their transition from life - I personally can't see anything non-respectfull of that personally, but that is my humble opinion.

Anyhow - you (and everyone else I'm sure) are tired of hearing a bald-guy ramble on. But I did promise you an off the wall suggestion. Perhaps this is a way that you can continue your dream while meeting your needs...as I don't think many programs will accept a non-sunday working student (but will keep my fingers crossed for you...)

Okay - finally to the idea - go to your pastor (or whomever...) and ask that they consecrate the hospital in which you do your program - I would think that they would be thrilled to do so and thus, on the sundays you do work, when you have a few minutes (or seconds...) free, you can spend the time in the resident room or chappel or where-ever and preserve your connection to your god. I know - wacky suggestion, but it may just work for you. In anycase, good luck in your life.

Dennis

 

[Firebird]

Dennis,

Thanks very much for your suggestions. If it weren't for this thread (and people who have posted in it, like you), I would still be very much in the dark about this matter.

I won't fully address your suggestions here, because I am afraid that if I continue to do that, people will get sick of this thread moreso than what they already are.

I will say this, though--within our church (and within the fellowship of the Church of Christ) we have a very wide variety of professions....from doctors to nurses, from CEO's of major companies to secretaries, from Ph.D.'s to elementary school teachers. And within this major diversity, comes the common thread that we have discussed so much here...the conviction to attend worship services on Sunday morning, without fail. I submit to you this evening that all of these people, within our realm of fellowship in the Church of Christ, never miss Sunday morning church. You said all careers will require at some point an absense from services. My current congregation has an average attendance of about 75 people on Sunday morning. And out of that number, 0% of the members ever miss church for career/job oriented reasons.

That is true across the United States. 0% will miss for career reasons.

I may not have made this clear earlier. You can see why this is such a burning question for me. Because we just don't miss church on Sunday morning for career purposes.

Hope this makes everyone understand why I am so concerned with this situation. And before I finish this up, I just want to say thanks so much to everyone who has participated in this thread. You've all been a big help!

 

[Laurel]

I am curious, Firebird, about something hypothetical. I assume that you believe your faith is the most correct (otherwise why would you choose it?) and so I assume that the ideal for you would be for everyone on earth to have the same faith (ie they would all then believe in the truths that you hold to be true). So, if such a situation existed what would happen to all of the people who had heart attacks, strokes, ruptured apendixes, etc. during those few hours of church service each week? Would those people be ignored and left to die or suffer in pain? I have a feeling you can afford to ignore my other points in previous posts because you can count on others not of your faith to perform these required services for you while in those few hours at church. But, suppose my hypothetical situation happened? Or, suppose you were the only doctor in a rural town? Would you ignore the suffering of your patients for those few hours? Do you believe God would look kindly upon that? I don't see this as a career problem I see it as a problem with the letter of God's law versus the spirit of God's law. That was my original point and I am curious how you would answer these two questions.

 

[Laurel]

To answer your own questions regarding my faith, Firebird, I am LDS (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) and I would be happy to tell you our beliefs on different scriptural references if you have specific ones you are curious about. Your question, however, is rather general. If you would be a bit more specific (perhaps by providing scriptural references) I can tell you how we interpret those scriptures.

 

[Firebird]

Laurel,

If such a hypothetical situation existed, there would be no problem at all. It would be simple.

The medical community would all believe the same as I do. Therefore, in that event, situations would be made so that a shift of doctors from one congregation would cover the hospital while another shift from another congregation would be at church. The congregations would simply fix their worship times so that the hospital would always have someone to cover the patients.

But of course, this is a hypothetical situation that will obviously never take place.

Now, you stated something that I'm not really sure what you meant. You said,

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I have a feeling you can afford to ignore my other points in previous posts •

Please explain.

I must also disagree that my question was general. My question was:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">how does your faith (and what denomination is that faith?) interpret the Greek manuscripts when they say to assemble and make collection on the day after the sabbath? Christ mentioned healing on the sabbath, not the day after the sabbath. •

That is fairly specific. Let me try to explain. You said that you had strict regulations regarding the Sabbath. However, you say that you are able to save/protect lives through your job and thereby miss services on the Sabbath.

However, I am assuming you consider the sabbath to be Sunday. The Bible specifically says that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, not the first. Thus, since Sunday is the first day of the week, it is not the Sabbath. Where do you get your scriptural license to miss Sunday services.

That was what I was trying to get at. Again, I thank everyone who has been posting in this thread. You all have been very helpful. Also, I would like to try to continue discussing religious subjects with everyone--but I'd rather not do it in this thread. This thread was to discuss the situation I mentioned in the original post. I would like, from now on, all religious messages to be posted on another thread, or emailed to me. That way, we can keep this more on topic.

 

[Pegasus]

Firebird,

It has been a while since i read this board, so you might have addressed this already. Have you thought about talking to the other professionals at your church and seeing how they dealt with Sunday service while they were going through school/residency and such?

Im sure you have already talked to them but I guess I was just wondering what they suggested to you.

Good Luck with it, and I do believe that if you want to be a Dr, you should go for it. Things will work themselves out.

 

[Firebird]

Thanks for the encouraging words Pegasus.

Actually, I have talked directly to one doctor. He's in plastics. He told me that Medical School would not be a problem. In fact, the greater majority has told me that. He did mention that I would need to stay away from more rigorous schools (i.e. Harvard, etc.) as they would be less likely to let me schedule MS III and IV around Sunday morning. But like I said, most have said that it won't be a problem until residency.

The plastics doctor said that I would ultimately have to choose a residency that is less time consuming and has less in-house call. Some suggestions were dermatology, psychiatry, plastics (not sure why he included that, because it's my understanding that plastic surgeons are originally gen surgery residents...which are among the ones with the highest work load. But he obviously did it somehow).

This past weekend, it was brought to my attention that two brothers from Pennsylvania have in the past few years comleted their residency without missing a Sunday. One is a Gen Practioner and the other is a Podiatrist (at least that was what I was told). The friend who mentioned these individuals is currently getting their telephone numbers for me so I can speak with them about methods and strategies to get through residency.

Today, my mother spoke with a doctor (not in our church) who had finished her GP residency about two or three years ago. She said she missed church on Sundays only once every four weeks. She said it wouldn't be easy for me to get through, but that it was very possible. She said that all I would have to do is when I had to work on Sunday, trade with someone who had to work Saturday. Her thoughts were that people were always willing to give up a Sunday to be off on a Saturday. Mom asked if the attendings would care about this constant trading and switching the schedule, and the lady said that they couldn't care less.

Course, I'm sure it's different everywhere.

I'll be sure to update this thread as soon as I talk to those guys from PA. Who knows, those of you from PA may have even known them! I think there are a number of Pennsylvanian med students here (Kimberli, I think is one).

Oh, and I'm yet to talk to the pathologist from MO or OK that made it all the way without missing.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Gracious sake, Firebird! I totally agree with Madison and so many others here.

Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

And Paul said, "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'...So I say, live by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:13-16)

And, "You are not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14).

And John said, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Try and relax and live in that grace.

NONE of the US's Christian residencies, a complete list of which can be found here:
http://www.cmds.org/?CONTEXT=art=15=144=2182884123
...have a stance such as you are taking, simply becasue they know about the incidencts of Jesus HEALING on the Sabbath, and the Scribes and Pharisees letter-over-spirit reaction to Him for doing so.

If you go trying to find a residency that will let you put letter-over-spirit, and never be on call or have to work on Sunday or Saturday, or whatever day it is you esteem over the rest; and if you won't LISTEN to your fellow Christians who are speaking Biblical truth to you--Madison, myself, others here--so as to relax you a little into a more New Testemant position, and won't listen to good reason from others besides, don't expect to be taken to as kindly as you might think--and, I think, rightly so. Because unbendingly holding to keeping the Sabbath when other things more important are at stake, may well be illustrative of other things of your character--sorry if that sounds hard, but, I think it needs to be said.

Also, you might try finding a used copy of Brother Andrew's Christian book, "The Ethics of Smuggling" (about smuggling certain literature into areas where it is officially banned) at www.half.com and getting a grasp on the concept of Hierarchial Ethics. This graps is vital to have in medicine.

Of course, you are free to do whatever you want. I would not try and convince you otherwise, except you claim to be a New Testament Christian. Being that as it is, this all, as well as what I wrote on the Dental Forum, is the best words I can tell you.


WWJD?

 

[Firebird]

There must just be something about this thread that causes people to want to change my mind. Earlier on this thread someone wrote something to the effect of, "I am overwhelmed at the number of people who have tried to change Firebird's mind instead of answer this question...". I too am overwhelmed.

Stephen, most of what you have mentioned here has already been addressed in this thread. Specifics about the Sabbath are talked about, even going back to the Greek to understand that the Sabbath is not the day I worship on (I worship on Sunday). If you would like, please feel free to email me about any of these topics. However, I am no longer inclined to discuss these things on a public forum, as it has come to my attention that I was contradicting all the advice I had been given.

And I really do appreciate those of you who pointed this out to me...in my zealous effort to explain the intricacies of my situation, I failed to notice that I was borderline rude. I really am sorry and apologize whole-heartedly for doing that.

Again, I will certainly discuss these religious matters privately, through email, but not here. This thread is for helping me get through this situation, not alter the parameters to absolve the conflict.

Thanks a bunch everyone!!!

 

[Gumbydammit]

Firebird,

Good luck in your religious endeavors. If you can pull it off to attend religious services every Sunday, more power to you.

 

[fmlydoc]

Quite a discussion.
I am currently in an unopposed residency program in family practice in a small city. We are a tight group of residents who would certainly have no problem covering for one of our own if this was the problem. You should be able to trade or find coverage. You must look closely at residency programs and ask and present that specific question. It is quite possible, so don't be discouraged.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Originally posted by Firebird:
•This thread is for helping me get through this situation, not alter the parameters to absolve the conflict.•

First off, I use the word "Sabbath" to show the spirit and principle of the issue, not in a technical sense.

Second, I think, that you miss the point of much of the input here. The replies aimed at getting you to adjust your stance on this issue are given becausee there is a realization, and general consensus, that such an alteration is really the only tenable way to, long-term, get through and resolve the conflict at all.

I tell you also, if you ever serve in medical missions, particularly in a rural third-world setting where you are the only doc around for three days walk, and hold to such a stance, you will be dealing with dead bodies at 2PM rather than saving live ones at 9AM. There you are getting ready to go to go a church service. The call comes. Do you say "Sorry, I gotta go to church right now," or go save life? WWJD? What would the Scribes and Pharisees do? In fact, Jesus did healings in synagogue--which could be analogous to a Christian hospital--and the Pharisees sought to kill Him for it.

You may find people who will adjust. But I do not think holding to your stance is, in the long-run, compatable with being the physician you could be--and it simply need not be that way! Contact the Christian Medical and Dental Society at http://www.cmds.org to see what I mean. And you might contact John McVay at the In His IMAGE FP residency--arguably the most strongly Christian FP residency in the U.S.--and talk to him about it all.
http://www.inhisimage.org

At least give it all time and maturity. You may see things in a much more grace-filled light later on.

 

[Djanaba]

I agree with the poster just a few up -- here, there is an unopposed family practice residency that would be, I am fairly sure, amenable to your needs. Yes, scheduling will be a pain in the proverbial butt. But here, conviction and character are seen as vital doc qualities, and you obviously demonstrate enormous conviction and are continuing to explore health professions (healing) despite the hardships of training. A noble path.

While your church and I do not agree on what is required of you, I understand how every person on this board has something internal to them that they feel is required of them. Belief changing should NOT be considered an option here, and our best help is that which finds a solution blending medicine and faith.

Perhaps looking into schools in countries which are less secular can give you what you want? (Language and a difference of religion, of course, would be great obstacles.) Explore more FP residencies. Continue to think about derm and radiology (both diagnostic and theraputic -- there are differences here: reading films and studies has little patient contact, while theraputic has a great deal, and the latter has far fewer emergencies; I am unsure as to how residencies approach these two areas as singular or separate entities).

Have you considered hospital chaplaincy as a calling? I know this is somewhat disjointed in ideas of what to do, but I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Firebird]

Ok, those are the types of posts I'm looking for. Fmlydoc's and Djanaba's messages are the perfect example's of the type of info I'm trying to get with this thread. Thanks so much for the info...now what is an "unopposed" family medicine residency?

Thanks for the links Stephen. I don't think that I'll be participating in an abroad medicine program in the third world. That's just not my cup of tea, so to speak. Besides, like you said, it would be nearly (if not totally) impossible for me to work out.

I do still however keep my original stance as I have stated before. I appreciate Djanaba's mentioning that

"Belief changing should NOT be considered an option here, and our best help is that which finds a solution blending medicine and faith."

Thanks a bunch everyone!

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Originally posted by Firebird:
•I don't think that I'll be participating in an abroad medicine program in the third world. That's just not my cup of tea, so to speak. Besides, like you said, it would be nearly (if not totally) impossible for me to work out.•

Don't miss my larger point. That larger point is that, if your position regarding church attendence is the bona-fide Christian position general on the issue, and I wish for everyone to know it IS NOT, than what these people are doing when they save life instead of being in church is sin. That postulation, in my opinion, is on the level of the theologically ludicrous.

 

[Djanaba]

An unopposed residency is one in a city that has no other programs. Sometimes it is used to refer to a residency that makes use of one hospital exclusively, while another in the same area uses a different hospital with little to no overlap. I am under the impression that 2 residencies in, say, East Armpit, MN, one in opthamology and one in proctology, who share the same hospital, can also be said to be unopposed: the residents aren't fighting to see the same patients.

 

[Kimya]

Hi Firebird,

Sorry if I missed this in your post, as the replies have gotten rather long, but from what I gather you are an undergrad, right? What is your main drive for becoming a doctor? It sounds like attending church is a central part of your religious beliefs. Have you considered a profession that would allow you the flexibility to attend better than a physician would? I've seen the posts recommending different specialties, but I would hate to see someone do a specialty they didn't enjoy or feel a passion for just because it is the only one that can accomodate scheduling. Or, if it is the case that most residencies do not support your request, to be limited to a tiny few to even request to match to. Have you considered alternate professions that allow you to maintain your religious beliefs and still be doing what you want to do?

 

[dnt107]

Of course, it doesn't answer your original question, but I couldn't help it...I totally agree with the above post, Kimya. That is exactly what I was thinking as I went through this giant theological debate. You are only an undergrad...I mean, its hard enough just to get into medical school even if your willing to work 8 days a week. But thats another conversation...what is relevant, though, is your drive to be a physician, no matter what specialty.

Pathology, at least from what I know, is unbelievably different than, say, family practice or optho. I refrain from asking if you want to be a physician just to get the MD/DO behind your name, because I don't believe that is the case here. Religious faith is something that fascinates me as it pertains to the psyche of an individual, and I'm sure it has something to do with your career option. But it seems so very hard to live for your religion, and at the same time devote yourself to medicine. Medicine is something that seems to change the way people view the world when people commit to it with all their heart. Some may find God, and others may lose Him as a result. Either way, I believe that you have an unbelievable amount to learn from medicine that will help you with this decision. I certainly hope that your commitment to medicine is full, though...because it is not just your job, it is the well-being of others. And I hope you do believe that we can learn about the process of life outside the realm of church. (...which makes me wonder about certain scientific teachings that might conflict with the dogma of your religion...but again, not relevant)

You may not be interested in justifying this stuff on this board (and for me the question is rhetorical, just to maybe spark some self exploration for yourself) so please don't feel obligated. But be aware that if this is such a hot topic now, and you will be talking about it in your applications and your conversations to medical schools/residencies, then you will be HEAVILY GRILLED on whether this will come in conflict with your physicianhood.

And the truth is that many people, even seemingly devout Christians have not been convinced by your arguments regarding faith. People have their own beliefs and they will apply it to judging you and how you will practice medicine for them, including residency directors and medical school admissions committees.

In the long run, you will probably develop a patient base that trusts and respects you maybe even because of your religious faith, but for now you should really analyse the way you present this as a factor for your motivation towards medicine. I think the interplay of religion and medicine is a somewhat delicate one, especially when many people disagree with your rigidity.

I think its healthy for you to hear the concerns or even the urges to compromise. Not because you should change the way you adhere religiously, but because it is going to prepare you for what is to come in the future. My humble opinion is that medical schools look positively at religious candidates, but they may frown upon uncompromising rigidity. Please think very carefully about tactfully addressing this issue in interviews and applications as in a simple forum like this it has caused some emotional responses.

But very interesting thread and my opinion is that family practice might be the way to go for you.

 

[Vasiley Zaitsev]

Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:
•Gracious sake, Firebird! I totally agree with Madison and so many others here.

Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

And Paul said, "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'...So I say, live by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:13-16)

And, "You are not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14).

And John said, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Try and relax and live in that grace.

NONE of the US's Christian residencies, a complete list of which can be found here:
http://www.cmds.org/?CONTEXT=art=15=144=2182884123
...have a stance such as you are taking, simply becasue they know about the incidencts of Jesus HEALING on the Sabbath, and the Scribes and Pharisees letter-over-spirit reaction to Him for doing so.

If you go trying to find a residency that will let you put letter-over-spirit, and never be on call or have to work on Sunday or Saturday, or whatever day it is you esteem over the rest; and if you won't LISTEN to your fellow Christians who are speaking Biblical truth to you--Madison, myself, others here--so as to relax you a little into a more New Testemant position, and won't listen to good reason from others besides, don't expect to be taken to as kindly as you might think--and, I think, rightly so. Because unbendingly holding to keeping the Sabbath when other things more important are at stake, may well be illustrative of other things of your character--sorry if that sounds hard, but, I think it needs to be said.

Also, you might try finding a used copy of Brother Andrew's Christian book, "The Ethics of Smuggling" (about smuggling certain literature into areas where it is officially banned) at www.half.com and getting a grasp on the concept of Hierarchial Ethics. This graps is vital to have in medicine.

Of course, you are free to do whatever you want. I would not try and convince you otherwise, except you claim to be a New Testament Christian. Being that as it is, this all, as well as what I wrote on the Dental Forum, is the best words I can tell you.


WWJD?•

I hate to break it to ya'll, but the law of God was NOT abolished at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"Verily, Verily, I say unto thee: Not a jot or tittle shall pass from this law before the fullfillment (sp) of Heaven and Earth"..

The law was resurrected with Christ, not destroyed. The OT laws of ceremonial, dieting, and cleansing were buried with Christ, but not the judicial laws! We as Christians have been given the Law of God to take Dominion of the earth! These judicial case laws enable us to live better lives, and help guide us through this world! Denying the law and ethics of God is denying the very means by which His covenant with man was set up!

God's covenant has 5 parts:

Transcendace
Hierarchy
Ethics
Oath
Succession

EVERY covenant found in the Bible can be modelled after this fashion!!! Taking away the OT law of the Bible, IE, the Ethics portion of the covenant, destroys the basis by which the covenant is regulated! If you are antinomian (against the law) then you deny the very basis of this Holy Covenant!!

True Dominion of the earth will come through the teaching and keeping of the Case Laws of Exodus, and by spreading the gospel through the Covenant of God. We know this to be true, and we know that the Word of God cannot fail!!

However, with this situation..I think that it is excusable to work on sunday, as a doc. "If a man's ox is in a ditch" (paraphrase from OT), then you are fine.


Back to the law issue...don't you see how incredibly silly it is to throw away God's law!? It undermines the whole purpose of why we are here!!! If anyone would like some recommended reading about this, I say first start with your Bible! After that, email me @ [email protected] to get some good books concerning this subject.

Conquering the World Through Christ,

owcc16

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Theologian hat ON.

First off, let's get an accurate quote:

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

NOTE 1: I never said the law was abolished. I said it was fullfilled in Christ, as Jesus Himself just said.

NOTE 2: "abolish," "fullfill" and "accomplish," as demarkated in Matthew 5:17 above, are three very different things. I will show this below.

Now, as preface, I am very well-versed in the teaching of North, Rushdooney, Bahnsen and Chilton, et al--have a full shelf of them--from whom you are deriving your assertions. I have communicated with one of them (publisher one) about writing a book for him, That You May Be Healed: The Church's Role in Medicine.

Where do they get off kilter, at bottom? We should not isolate one portion of the Scripture and make a hobby out of it, but utlize the whole counsel of God in all endeavors.

Too, in the New Covenant, the law must be used rightly, as Paul said. That connotes a change, especially in the minds of his Roman-Jewish readers, from how they approached the Old Covenant law prior. Galatians (to Gentiles), and James and Hebrews (to Jews), obvioulsy affirms this--affirms a very different role and usage of Old Covenant writ during the New Covenant. There-under, there is a

1) continuity of the law and prophets between the Covenants

2) fulfillment--not abolition--of the law and prophets at he inaguration of the New Covenant

3) change of use and approach to the law and prophets during the New Covenant

Operating in these three--rightly using and approaching the law and prophets during the New Covenant--casues them to

4) be "accomplished" progressivley as the Chruch moves on in her history, and finally at the Last Day

Summarizing:

1. continuity
2. fulfillment
3. change of use
4. accomplishment

Not seeing these differentiations--these threads-in-one--but just two of the three (#1 and #4), is a cause of some good amount of confusion over the role of the Old Covenant law and prophets under the New Covenant--including in some of the above folks. JUST #1 and #4 was the proper usage of the law and prophets during the Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, #2 and #3 must be added between them for usuage of the law and prophets to be considered proper--to be New Covenant usage of them.

A really, really great study in this matter for you is to look up all the Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, and see just how they were used and approached. That exhibits how the NT writiers used the law and prophets. It will give strong instruction as to how we should use it and approach it as well.

Hope this gives you food for thought. We should probably leave it off right there.

Theologian hat OFF.

 

[Vasiley Zaitsev]

Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:
•Theologian hat on.

First off, let's get an accurate quote:

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

NOTE 1: I never said the law was abolished. I said it was fullfilled in Christ, as Jesus Himself just said.

NOTE 2: abolish and fullfill are two very different things.

Now, I am very well-versed in the teaching of North, Rushdooney, Bahnsen and Chilton, et al--have a full shelf of them--from whom you are deriving your assertions. I have communicated with one of them (publisher one) about writing a book for him That You May Be Healed: The Church's Role in Medicine.

Where do they get off kilter, at bottom? We should not isolate one portion of the Scripture and make a hobby out of it, but utlize the whole counsel of God in all endeavors.

In the New Covenant, the law must be used rightly, as Paul said. That connotes a change, especially in the minds of his Roman-Jewish readers, from how they approached the Old Covenant law prior. Galatians (to Gentiles), and James and Hebrews (to Jews), obvioulsy affirms this--affirms a very different role and usage of Old Covenant writ during the New Covenant. There-under, there is a

1) concurrent continuity

2) concurrent change of use

and a

3) concurrent fulfillment--not abolition--of the law

Not seeing all three of these threads-in-one, but just one of the three, is a casue of some good amount of confusion over the role of the Old Covenant law and prophets under the New Covenant--including in some of the above folks. As well, not seeing the differentiation between abolish and fullfill.

A really, really great study in this matter is to look up all the Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, and see just how they were used and approached. That exhibits how the NT writiers used the law and prophets. It will give strong instruction as to how we should use it and approach it as well.

We should probably leave it off right there.

Theologian hat off. •

Wow..I'm truly impressed that you even know who those people are! (honestly).

Those authors do use the whole counsel...how would you describe your beliefs concerning God's Word? Obviously not a theonomist...Antinomian? It seems that once you take a card from the card house, the rest fall..so, I guess you probably aren't of the "reformed" persuasion..

I would like to continue a private discussion with you...I would like to see you address the problem with the undermining of the Covenant, however, with your seeming "abolishing" the Ethics of God's Covenant. Also, I would like to discuss with you the eschatalogical implications that your worldview concerning the OT Case Laws entails.

I'm not sure I understand your difference between "abolishing" and "fulfilling". If the OT law has been passed away, then by what standard shall we live by? Anyway, Please, PLEASE email me about this, so we can discuss it...it will be fun and interesting...

owcc16, who can't believe he ran into someone who is familiar with Christian Reconstruction...

p.s. You forgot "James B Jordan" in the list of authors..

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Ethics of the law and letter of the law are also different. Paul exhibited use of the ethics, not the letter of the law, for instance, when he argued about supporting those who were engaged full-time in the gospel through quoting the law, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is tredding out the grain"--a right use exhibiting the change of use of the law in the New Covenant. Following the ethics of the law, like this passage exhibits (and it is just one of the many), is kin to following the spirit of the law under the New Covenant, which is why I point people to the study of how the law and prophets were used in the NT, as mentioned prior. Christ said the law would be fullfilled in Himself, and Paul confirmed that the righteous requirements of the law were indeed met by Christ; and the believer, by being placed in Christ, has that righteousness imputed. The letter of the law, and its requirement upon us, has been fulfilled FOR US in Christ's work!--the teaching of Romans in nutshell.

"Passed away"--I never said that, read again. It will never pass away. It will, however, be accomplished after the Last Day. Till then, there is a continuity, yet change of usage of the law between the Covenants, based upon the requirements of the law for the believer having been met in Christ per Hebrews, Romans, etc.

Your labeling efforts have failed.

Nuff said. I have e-mailed you.

 

[Firebird]

Some news for this thread...

I've been away for just under a week now, as I went to a young people's church meeting in Texas. Anyway, while I was there, I had the opportunity to talk to a guy who had considered going to med school...however he decided against it.

Had I just sat down and asked him about his reasons for not attending, he wouldn't have even mentioned the church attendance thing...at least I don't think he would have. He had his own personal reasons.

However, I did ask him about the matter, and he said that that doctors within the Church of Christ didn't have to miss church if they didn't want to. It didn't even appear to be a concern. He said that almost all them never once had a problem with getting someone to cover them.

So that's the news...I've been getting quite a bit of positive feedback. Another family practitioner (not CofC) told my mom that she only had to miss her services once a month, and could probably have gotten someone to cover her pretty easily.

So there ya have it!!! Good news for me!!!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Good...I'm glad you have found some personal resolution to this problem. A little happy dance for you:

 

[oshbisser]

Firebird,

I regret to tell you that you will not be able to accomplish your sunday mission. Even if you make arrangements with every single team - what will you do when you're the one retratcting intestines during surgery when you need to go? Or interviewing a suicidal patient on a psych consult? Or trying to get a history out of an extremely talkative patient? And if you do manage to dump off these reponsibilities every sunday at 10am your reputation as a reliable, committed med student will be inevitably tarnished. Finally, residency is the ultimate test. What if your fellow resident slept in when he was supposed to cover for you? Would you leave and open yourself up to job termination or legal action? It's time for you to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Firebird]

Originally posted by oshbisser:
•Firebird,

I regret to tell you that you will not be able to accomplish your sunday mission. Even if you make arrangements with every single team - what will you do when you're the one retratcting intestines during surgery when you need to go? Or interviewing a suicidal patient on a psych consult? Or trying to get a history out of an extremely talkative patient? And if you do manage to dump off these reponsibilities every sunday at 10am your reputation as a reliable, committed med student will be inevitably tarnished. Finally, residency is the ultimate test. What if your fellow resident slept in when he was supposed to cover for you? Would you leave and open yourself up to job termination or legal action? It's time for you to wake up and smell the coffee. •

Thanks for the post, oshbisser. I appreciate your insight. And I'm glad this thread isn't lost and forgotten forever! haha

Anyway, I don't drink coffee...

I realize that this thread has become quite long, so I'll re-emphasize some points that seem cogent to your response. Please don't take these thoughts as being a counter-argument to your message...I'm just pulling up some info that is probably buried in this thread so deeply that neither one of us would find the exact messages.

First, it has been done before. I don't know how many times, but I know of at least five doctors who have accomplished this...a plastic surgeon, a pathologist, a family practitioner, an internist (I think), and possibly an ears, nose, and throat (again, not sure on that one). As far as I know, these are the only individuals who have tried...I haven't heard of anyone who has tried and failed. So it is very possible.

(Also, just as a side-note...as a general policy, Loma Linda College of Medicine in CA allows students time off to attend worship services)

Secondly, I would be choosing a field in which the residency would be less likely to require Sunday morning time. Dermatology, Pathology, or Psychiatry have been suggested to me.

Again, thanks for the info. Feel free to keep posting messages here...I need all the info I can get.

 

[mkwhitley]

Anyway, I don't drink coffee...

Maybe you really should reconsider medicine...just kidding.

M.W.

 

[nycom]

You may have to narrow the focus of where you are willing to do your residency but it is possible. Here in NY most of the jewish hospitals have programs for orthodox jews. These programs allow them to not work from sundown friday to sundown saturday (their sabath) I am sure that these programs could arrange for you to work be matched up with a jewish resident. You work the jewish sabath and he works yours. I doubt that you will be able to get just the two hours covered as most people prefer to work a whole day. Once you finish your residency it should not be a problem. It may cost you some job choices but there are plenty of attendings who have not worked a sunday in the last few decades.

 

[mojo]

Originally posted by gower:
•Many of the laws of the three major monotheistic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) were laid down two millenia or more ago, in agricultural and pastoral societies when complex modern situations such as the one under discussion were unimagined. (If your belief is that because they are GOD-given and thus necessarily inflexible, end of my discussion). But there are religions, or religious groups, which have found reasons to reinterpret mandates to accomodate new situations unknown in the ancient texts.

An example I am familiar with is orthodox Jewry. "Old" Testament Scripture, accepted by Christianity, says the sabbath is holy and work is not to be enagaged in. But many orthodox rabbis say one exception to this stricture is when saving a life is at issue. This exception is broadened to include permitting physicians to be on call when required to even though a particular life might not be in immediate jeopardy.
•

That's a great point you bring up. It does depend on the residency. If it involves saving a life, then a hospital could be as holy as any place of worship, in my opinion. If you could work around it, by all means, do so. But you are not transgressing in ANY way, if you aid a person who has fallen into bad health! nycom's idea sounds like a good one, it would help the patients as well as you and another resident's religious obligations.

 

[Firebird]

Man, there's been a renewed interest in my topic since I was gone...I'm glad to see it!

mkwhitley--although I don't drink coffee, that doesn't mean I won't drink something else full of caffeine, haha! I just never have been able to get that "aquired taste".

nycom--that was an excellent suggestion! That may end up as the path I'll have to take. Seeing as how I live in KY, a move to NY wouldn't be a choice I would want to make, but ultimately it may be the only way I can pursue a career in medicine. However, Louisville and Jewish Hospital is brought to mind. Anyone know anything about their program?

Tony--I'm really glad you brought this up, because I have been considering the matter a little further. And this sort of goes along with oshbisser's message. Here goes:

My dad brought up this situation. What if I was driving on the road to church and another car ran off the road and the driver was injured. Would I ignore the situation to get to church, or would I help the guy and end up either being extremely late or missing altogether? Of course I would stop and help him.

Now this relates to my problem. I would still have trouble with the idea of me being scheduled to work during church. However, if I had church time off, but before church began a patient under my care went south, then it would be just like the above hypothetical situation. It would be a situation in which I had little or no control. However, I still have to think about this a little further. I'm still considering this--I want to make sure that I truly believe this would be ok...not because I want it to be ok...know what I mean?

Again, thanks for all the responses; I look forward to more messages...hopefully soon!

PS--I loved the Great Gatsby!

 

[PimplePopperMD]

Originally posted by Firebird:
•
My dad brought up this situation. What if I was driving on the road to church and another car ran off the road and the driver was injured. Would I ignore the situation to get to church, or would I help the guy and end up either being extremely late or missing altogether? Of course I would stop and help him.

Now this relates to my problem. I would still have trouble with the idea of me being scheduled to work during church. However, if I had church time off, but before church began a patient under my care went south, then it would be just like the above hypothetical situation. It would be a situation in which I had little or no control. However, I still have to think about this a little further. I'm still considering this--I want to make sure that I truly believe this would be ok...not because I want it to be ok...know what I mean?
•

I think that is precisely what people were trying to argue, but not nearly so elegantly. The whole point is: NO rule or law is *SO IMPORTANT* so as not to have exceptions. We are blessed with brains to use them; computers must follow all laws programmed into the system, but we have been given the gift of discretion. And your parallel (of helping the person on the way to Church, so why not help a patient) is absolutely on.. if a patient goes south while you're supposed to be at church, your *higher*, and more important obligation, is NOT to be at church singing hymns. You can certainly do that after attending to the patient, even when nobody is in the Church. The point is: you aren't choosing the patient over your God, but *because* of your God. I'm sure *He'll* understand that you'll be a little late to Church that day. (And I think, if He exists, that He'd be a bit insulted if you chose to sing hymns instead of attending to your patient)

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading this thread. Very interesting points of view. I'd like to think that it has expanded my thinking just a bit (since I can't understand religion)...

All the best!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Please do keep us up to date...like PimplePopperMD, I don't understand all the religious convictions myself but I do admire the determination and desire you have for seeking an alternative which meets your needs (although I do agree with PimplePopper's assessment that there are things which are more important/a higher calling than being in church).

I look forward to hearing what you decide to do, can work out for yourself.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Originally posted by PimplePopperMD:
•...I've enjoyed reading this thread. Very interesting points of view. I'd like to think that it has expanded my thinking just a bit (since I can't understand religion)...•

Well, if not that than you CERTAINLY exhibit a very good grasp of hierarchial ethics!

 

[Firebird]

Howdy! Just a little update for ya...

I've been out of town for a little under a week at a church meeting in Missouri and while I was there, I talked to a pathologist from the Church of Christ about a career in medicine. He has been practicing for about five years now (if I recall correctly) and never has had to miss a single worship service on Sunday morning because of his education or job.

He told us that pathology or dermatology are about the only two specialties that would not ever really present a problem (and that excludes the internship in derm). However, he mentioned a few ways of getting out of working on Sunday morning. He said that there would often be someone willing to trade with me, but if I did that often, it would start to irritate people. Additionally though, it was suggested that I could trade one of my Sundays to someone else in exchange for two days from the other person.

Also I found out that there are somewhere in the area of six other individuals at least interested in becoming physicians. I'm not sure how many have actually completed the pre-med courses and I know that two of them are only just starting college this fall. So I don't know where they'll end up and how many of them will stick with medicine.

I think it's going to be very possible to accomplish this, but with a lot of sweat and tears. I'll just try to make a lot of friends who would be willing to help me out and like the guy said...if I set my mind to it and stay faithful to God, He'll make a way for me to do it!

I should be doing some shadowing this month and hopefully I'll also get in touch with a couple of Doc's from PA that just recently started practicing.

Also, feel free to make any statements or suggestions. I have really found this thread to be helpful over the last few months!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Good luck to you. It sounds as if you have some role models to follow!