In Defense of DO's

[Brett Hart]

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I was saddened to see this post by one of the moderators in the Pre-DO section of this site and not in any other section. It is locked so I am unable to comment, but rather will quote

"I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it."

The DO degree has been attacked since it was created over 100 years ago. Today it remains under attack mostly by people who actually know very little about it, and therefore tend to just vomit forth some negative opinion from an 80yo attending who has never in fact worked with a DO. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT....THE MINUTE THAT DO's STOP DEFENDING THEMSELVES IS THE DAY THAT WE LOSE A 100 YEAR BATTLE AND OUR PROFESSIONAL INTEGRITY. ALL DO'S MUST KNOW HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AS WE EXIST ONLY BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT IT. NEVER EVER FORGET THAT....AND REALIZE THAT YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT ANY "MODERATOR" MAY POST. YOU MUST ALSO DEFEND YOURSELF TACTFULLY, AND INTELLIGENTLY...BUT NEVER LET ANYONE CONVINCE YOU THAT FOR A MINUTE YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR WORK...AND IN YOUR PROFESSION. YOU ARE ALL DOCTORS...PERIOD.

I RECOMMEND THAT THE MODERATOR STOP PERSUADING PEOPLE TO LAY DOWN AND NOT DEFEND SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE WORKED HARD FOR AND HAVE PUT THEIR SOUL INTO. IF THE MODERATOR IS A DO, THEN I RECOMMEND HE REFOCUS HIS ENERGY ON EDUCATING THOSE WHO QUESTION DO'S, RATHER THAN ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE RESPONSES OF THOSE OFFENDED.

I AM EMBARRASSED THAT A MODERATOR WOULD EVEN POST ANYTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST NOT DEFENDING AGAINST ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE OUR PROFESSION.

 

[Kubed]

A little homestarrunner:

a>head
a>hit
a>keyboard

 

[Phil Anthropist]

THE MINUTE THAT DO's STOP DEFENDING THEMSELVES IS THE DAY THAT WE LOSE A 100 YEAR BATTLE AND OUR PROFESSIONAL INTEGRITY. ALL DO'S MUST KNOW HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AS WE EXIST ONLY BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT IT. NEVER EVER FORGET THAT....AND REALIZE THAT YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT ANY "MODERATOR" MAY POST. YOU MUST ALSO DEFEND YOURSELF TACTFULLY, AND INTELLIGENTLY...

---------------------------------------------------------------

I RECOMMEND THAT THE MODERATOR STOP PERSUADING PEOPLE TO LAY DOWN AND NOT DEFEND SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE WORKED HARD FOR AND HAVE PUT THEIR SOUL INTO. IF THE MODERATOR IS A DO, THEN I RECOMMEND HE REFOCUS HIS ENERGY ON EDUCATING THOSE WHO QUESTION DO'S, RATHER THAN ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE RESPONSES OF THOSE OFFENDED.

I AM EMBARRASSED THAT A MODERATOR WOULD EVEN POST ANYTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST NOT DEFENDING AGAINST ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE OUR PROFESSION.

You are misinterpreting his statement. Please read the statement carefully:

Whatever you feel about MDs or DOs, bashing each other is not going to solve any issues. I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it.

At no point does he mention or imply that those supporting osteopathic medicine should "lay down and not defend something that they have worked hard for and have put their soul into."

The point is that it is sad that osteopathic students and physicians would attempt to "defend" their education by attacking or bashing those who make disparaging comments about osteopathic medicine. The keywords there are attacking and bashing; not respond to, challenge, or defend, but attack. An ad hominem argument is neither tactful nor intelligent--two characteristics you explicitly stated as useful for defending osteopathic medicine:

YOU MUST ALSO DEFEND YOURSELF TACTFULLY, AND INTELLIGENTLY...

We don't stop people from defending osteopathic medicine in a civil manner; rather, we stop those who attempt to defend osteopathic medicine by attacking others.

As a Co-Moderator of the Pre-Allo forum, I have no problems with osteopathic hopefuls, students, and physicians who defend their aspirations and education in a respectable manner. But I do find it unfortunate and intolerable when people on SDN resort to personal attacks. Personal attacks are violations of the Terms of Service.

You should also be aware that SDN does not put up with anti-DO trolls who seek to belittle osteopathic medicine.

IF THE MODERATOR IS A DO, THEN I RECOMMEND HE REFOCUS HIS ENERGY ON EDUCATING THOSE WHO QUESTION DO'S, RATHER THAN ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE RESPONSES OF THOSE OFFENDED.

This is an unfair statement. Lee co-founded SDN--the largest pre-health internet forum in the world. The entire point of SDN is to provide a free educational service. This includes educating others about the osteopathic profession.

Happy Holidays

 

[OSUdoc08]

I was saddened to see this post by one of the moderators in the Pre-DO section of this site and not in any other section. It is locked so I am unable to comment, but rather will quote

"I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it."

The DO degree has been attacked since it was created over 100 years ago. Today it remains under attack mostly by people who actually know very little about it, and therefore tend to just vomit forth some negative opinion from an 80yo attending who has never in fact worked with a DO. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT....THE MINUTE THAT DO's STOP DEFENDING THEMSELVES IS THE DAY THAT WE LOSE A 100 YEAR BATTLE AND OUR PROFESSIONAL INTEGRITY. ALL DO'S MUST KNOW HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AS WE EXIST ONLY BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT IT. NEVER EVER FORGET THAT....AND REALIZE THAT YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT ANY "MODERATOR" MAY POST. YOU MUST ALSO DEFEND YOURSELF TACTFULLY, AND INTELLIGENTLY...BUT NEVER LET ANYONE CONVINCE YOU THAT FOR A MINUTE YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR WORK...AND IN YOUR PROFESSION. YOU ARE ALL DOCTORS...PERIOD.

I RECOMMEND THAT THE MODERATOR STOP PERSUADING PEOPLE TO LAY DOWN AND NOT DEFEND SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE WORKED HARD FOR AND HAVE PUT THEIR SOUL INTO. IF THE MODERATOR IS A DO, THEN I RECOMMEND HE REFOCUS HIS ENERGY ON EDUCATING THOSE WHO QUESTION DO'S, RATHER THAN ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE RESPONSES OF THOSE OFFENDED.

I AM EMBARRASSED THAT A MODERATOR WOULD EVEN POST ANYTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST NOT DEFENDING AGAINST ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE OUR PROFESSION.

😴

 

[QuantumMechanic]

You completely misunderstood that forum rule. DOs and MDs are both doctors, and in the real world its not a big deal. From what I've seen on SDN, most of the "criticism" of the DO degree is not about its validity or quality, but rather some of the options it may limit in terms of specialty choice (the key word is may!, there are DOs in every specialty) and the relative quality of students as shown by the objective numbers of gpa and mcat when compared to most allopathic schools. These are both objective facts that people time and time again bring up on SDN to attack/belittle/criticize/question/whatever the DO degree. That being said, a preDO or DO student need not become overly defensive and attack anyone who asks about these aspects of the DO degree, but can calmly point out the positive characteristics of their degree and why they are chosing/chose to pursue a DO rather than an MD.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You completely misunderstood that forum rule. DOs and MDs are both doctors, and in the real world its not a big deal. From what I've seen on SDN, most of the "criticism" of the DO degree is not about its validity or quality, but rather some of the options it may limit in terms of specialty choice (the key word is may!, there are DOs in every specialty) and the relative quality of students as shown by the objective numbers of gpa and mcat when compared to most allopathic schools. These are both objective facts that people time and time again bring up on SDN to attack/belittle/criticize/question/whatever the DO degree. That being said, a preDO or DO student need not become overly defensive and attack anyone who asks about these aspects of the DO degree, but can calmly point out the positive characteristics of their degree and why they are chosing/chose to pursue a DO rather than an MD.

👍

 

[dr.z]

You completely misunderstood that forum rule. DOs and MDs are both doctors, and in the real world its not a big deal. From what I've seen on SDN, most of the "criticism" of the DO degree is not about its validity or quality, but rather some of the options it may limit in terms of specialty choice (the key word is may!, there are DOs in every specialty) and the relative quality of students as shown by the objective numbers of gpa and mcat when compared to most allopathic schools. These are both objective facts that people time and time again bring up on SDN to attack/belittle/criticize/question/whatever the DO degree. That being said, a preDO or DO student need not become overly defensive and attack anyone who asks about these aspects of the DO degree, but can calmly point out the positive characteristics of their degree and why they are chosing/chose to pursue a DO rather than an MD.

👍

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You completely misunderstood that forum rule. DOs and MDs are both doctors, and in the real world its not a big deal. From what I've seen on SDN, most of the "criticism" of the DO degree is not about its validity or quality, but rather some of the options it may limit in terms of specialty choice (the key word is may!, there are DOs in every specialty) and the relative quality of students as shown by the objective numbers of gpa and mcat when compared to most allopathic schools. These are both objective facts that people time and time again bring up on SDN to attack/belittle/criticize/question/whatever the DO degree. That being said, a preDO or DO student need not become overly defensive and attack anyone who asks about these aspects of the DO degree, but can calmly point out the positive characteristics of their degree and why they are chosing/chose to pursue a DO rather than an MD.

well, the obnoxious thing about sdn is that people bring up the low stats issue in contexts where it's inappropriate just to be insulting. if someone's intentionally being a jerk, i've got no qualms with calling him/her on it. it's true, do stats are lower (and dropping because of the new schools), and it's fine to have a rational discussion about that. however, if it comes up in pre-allo, people usually aren't wanting a rational discussion, especially if the op is asking a question like is do a cop out degree or whatever, which happened a few days ago. we also had the wonderful statement in pre-allo that osteopathic schools are like arena league football compared with allopathic schools which are like the nfl. 🙄

i'm just wondering why we're the ones who are considered uncivil instead of the a@@holes who troll our boards and insult us without good cause.

 

[QofQuimica]

i'm just wondering why we're the ones who are considered uncivil instead of the a@@holes who troll our boards and insult us without good cause.

Read again what Phil wrote a few posts above you. No one is asking DO students to be martyrs. *Everyone* on SDN is expected to be civil.

So what do you do when the trolls come calling? First, don't respond in kind. If DOs want respect and to convince people to listen to them, they aren't going to get either by ranting and raving just like the trolls do. Second, every post has a little triangle-shaped button with an exclamation point in the bottom left-hand corner. If someone is trolling against DOs in this forum or in pre-allo, you are always free (and encouraged) to use that button to report the post, and that forum's mods will respond. People reported those pre-allo threads you mentioned, and they were closed, as they deserved to be. However, you need to remember that there are a lot of threads in the pre-med forums, and only a few mods. Phil does a great job with monitoring pre-allo, but sometimes he misses things due to the sheer volume of threads in there. So please help the mods help you, and if you see something that violates TOS, report it to them so that they can shut it down.

 

[scpod]

well, the obnoxious thing about sdn is that people bring up the low stats issue in contexts where it's inappropriate just to be insulting... it's true, do stats are lower (and dropping because of the new schools), and it's fine to have a rational discussion about that.

I think that there are a lot of great things about DO schools, and I really don't mind that the stats may be a little lower. Most schools use GPA and MCAT to "weed out" applicants up front. The problem that I see with that strategy is that GPA and MCAT scores are not necessarily good predictors of how "good" a doctor one will be. They are simply indicators of one's ability to excel academically. I understand the rationale, though, because with the increasing number of applicants, surely you can find "good" doctors with high scores as well.

However, the three "best" doctors I have ever known are all DO's. They are also the only three DO's that I have ever spent more than an hour with. On the other hand, I have met, been seen by, become friends with, or worked with more than a hundred MD's. I've found two that I would really put in that "good" category. (Remember that this is only my personal assesment).

I believe that for many years medical schools have relied on their own process of "natural selection" where the caring, empathetic, applicants were selected against. The strong, fatherly, "can-do-no-wrong", dictator applicants were selected for. Thus, the medical profession suffers from an overabundance of arrogant, self-centered physicians. The 4.0 GPA 38 MCAT people are perfect for that that position. They are used to never failing, and when they do, it must be someone else's fault.

There is a current trend, albeit a small one, where some applicants with huge stats are beginning to look at DO schools because of the philosophy. I hope that trend continues, and grows, because I think that it will be good for the American health care system. Most patients don't really care whether or not you have a DO or MD after your name, and they don't care what school or residency you went to, or what your GPA and MCAT score was; they simply want someone who can take care of them when they are sick without being a condescending a$$.

 

[docbill]

My christmas wish was to come on SDN and not find anything in anyway negative, or appear to be negative, or demonstrate insecurity about DO degree.

So I got up this morning, turned on my PC, logged on to the internet (even before I went to see if there are any gifts under the tree from Santa or anyone else...)

And little did I know... There was this thread.

 

[hokte]

Unfortunately there are still those who insist on belittling one profession in order to elevate their own. It shows insecurity and lack of maturity on the part of anyone who would really try to suggest that somehow a better MCAT and GPA make you a better doc. And really isn't that what it's all about? I've yet to see any stats that prove higher entrance scores into med school make you more productive in your specialty. The DO philosophy blended better with my own, but because of location I choose a different path. Anyway hopefully the negative ones will wisen up.

 

[Brett Hart]

I think you are misinterpreting my statement. There is no need to go on the defensive and place a reply to every statement of mine that you disagree with. I don't argue over vocabulary either...let all D.O.'s defend their profession. PERIOD...NEVER let anyone think that you are less of a doctor than anyone else.

 

[jbone]

I think you are misinterpreting my statement. There is no need to go on the defensive and place a reply to every statement of mine that you disagree with. I don't argue over vocabulary either...let all D.O.'s defend their profession. PERIOD...NEVER let anyone think that you are less of a doctor than anyone else.

Agreed. 👍

 

[Brett Hart]

Unfortunately there are still those who insist on belittling one profession in order to elevate their own. It shows insecurity and lack of maturity on the part of anyone who would really try to suggest that somehow a better MCAT and GPA make you a better doc. And really isn't that what it's all about? I've yet to see any stats that prove higher entrance scores into med school make you more productive in your specialty. The DO philosophy blended better with my own, but because of location I choose a different path. Anyway hopefully the negative ones will wisen up.

It is actually true of the whole profession. Medicine teams put down the ER teams. ER teams put down the family practice docs...family practice docs put down the PA's...everyone puts down podiatrists...people listen to all this. Funny how doctor's are so quick so testify against one another in malpractice court...never a shortage of expert witnesses these days are there?

 

[Virgil]

I was saddened to see this post by one of the moderators in the Pre-DO section of this site and not in any other section. It is locked so I am unable to comment, but rather will quote

"I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it."

The DO degree has been attacked since it was created over 100 years ago. Today it remains under attack mostly by people who actually know very little about it, and therefore tend to just vomit forth some negative opinion from an 80yo attending who has never in fact worked with a DO. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT....THE MINUTE THAT DO's STOP DEFENDING THEMSELVES IS THE DAY THAT WE LOSE A 100 YEAR BATTLE AND OUR PROFESSIONAL INTEGRITY. ALL DO'S MUST KNOW HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AS WE EXIST ONLY BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT IT. NEVER EVER FORGET THAT....AND REALIZE THAT YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT ANY "MODERATOR" MAY POST. YOU MUST ALSO DEFEND YOURSELF TACTFULLY, AND INTELLIGENTLY...BUT NEVER LET ANYONE CONVINCE YOU THAT FOR A MINUTE YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR WORK...AND IN YOUR PROFESSION. YOU ARE ALL DOCTORS...PERIOD.

I RECOMMEND THAT THE MODERATOR STOP PERSUADING PEOPLE TO LAY DOWN AND NOT DEFEND SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE WORKED HARD FOR AND HAVE PUT THEIR SOUL INTO. IF THE MODERATOR IS A DO, THEN I RECOMMEND HE REFOCUS HIS ENERGY ON EDUCATING THOSE WHO QUESTION DO'S, RATHER THAN ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE RESPONSES OF THOSE OFFENDED.

I AM EMBARRASSED THAT A MODERATOR WOULD EVEN POST ANYTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST NOT DEFENDING AGAINST ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE OUR PROFESSION.

 

[Brett Hart]

AAAWWWWWW, cute little pre-med...hey dude catch you at the frat party!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Virgil]

AAAWWWWWW, cute little pre-med...hey dude catch you at the frat party!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH MY GYAD! Is there going to be wrestling there, Brett Hart? I can't wait!

 

[robh]

i'm just wondering why we're the ones who are considered uncivil instead of the a@@holes who troll our boards and insult us without good cause.

Point well taken. I agree with just about everything everyone has said so far. I think the angst of the OP is that he feels like DO's/OM students have been singled out for 'official' criticism by an SDN moderator while the trolls get a pass.

I know they (trolls) don't truly get a pass. I see the troll threads locked with great regularity. And, I'm not saying this needs to be done (perhaps thicker skins are needed) but a similar 'official' statement in the allo forum denouncing DO trashing threads might even out the feelings.

As Brett commented, there is always bickering between the specialties, but when censure from a (semi-)official source is perceived as onesided, it tends to get peoples drawers in a bunch, and I think not entirely without cause.

I'm not calling for any action here except for some to ease up on the OP a little. It's pretty hard to invest so much of your self in something and then have someone seem to run it down. I know that is not what the moderator meant to do, but perceptions are often more important than the truth, (a fact that I think is very important in medicine!)

 

[stoic]

the point to take away here is that medicine is an extremely competive field filled with extremely competetive and often arrogant individuals. it's a personality type that fits the job. and as a result everyone is always ****ting on everyone one. derm is filled with really smart, really lazy people who took the job for the hours. FP is filled with the dumbest. surgery is filled with male jerks. ortho is filled with horny, stupid male jerks. EM is just triage nursing on steroids. gas is filled with junkies (ok, well, that last one is more true than the others). it's just an annoying part of the game.

the pre-med "DO-bashing" is born of the exact same machismo as the speciality bashing. and it's just as pointless. it's too easy to let it rile you up; i used to get pissed off (back when i was planning on going DO). but the thing is that it just doesn't matter. you willed be judged on your skill as a physician and your personality. i know it's hard, but let it go.

(and if you're wondering why i went MD instead of DO... instate tuition. i'm engaged to a DO if it's any consolation)

 

[Brett Hart]

[
As Brett commented, there is always bickering between the specialties, but when censure from a (semi-)official source is perceived as onesided, it tends to get peoples drawers in a bunch, and I think not entirely without cause.



My wrestling singlet gets in a bunch...

 

[Brett Hart]

the point to take away here is that medicine is an extremely competive field filled with extremely competetive and often arrogant individuals. it's a personality type that fits the job. and as a result everyone is always ****ting on everyone one. derm is filled with really smart, really lazy people who took the job for the hours. FP is filled with the dumbest. surgery is filled with male jerks. ortho is filled with horny, stupid male jerks. EM is just triage nursing on steroids. gas is filled with junkies (ok, well, that last one is more true than the others). it's just an annoying part of the game. /

Brilliant...that is my point exactly