In State Vs Out of State

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GeeQued

UC Davis 2013
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So just looking for some general advise. I'm debating between two schools (took me long enough to get down to them) and is my instate school, UC Davis and the other is University of Minnesota. The programs are comparable but I felt that Minnesota had new technology (Letherdale center opened last year) and offered more in the two areas I'm interested in (equine sports medicine/orthopedic surgical and repro). Davis is a fantastic school and I cant go wrong with either one but I'm leaning towards Minnesota, I can try and gain residency there in the future but heard its difficult. The price difference is around $15,000/year so is it that stupid of a choice to turn down the instate??

I love the little suburbs in a big city feel which Davis kinda lacked plus the one interviewer seemed far from friendly and my interview felt like a grill session where at all the midwest schools it felt like a more friendly environment.

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Originally, when I was a naive pre-vet before applying, I thought I would go wherever I got in that was the best school for me. However, I've come to realize that it's sometimes not as easy as that. Personally, I think the debt/money issue is a huge deal, and that $60,000 can go a long way for other life expenses. I really think that the education values are comparable across all of the vet schools; it's really the experience after you graduate that will distinguish you from your peers. I would really think about this decision and make sure you think losing that additional $60,000 is worth the very slight difference in education you MAY get from one school over the other. Anyway, both schools are great, so you can't go wrong either way. :)
 
OK, so I am a a huge advocate for going to the best financial option. Seriously, an extra 60k in initial debt will cost you far more in the long run, and could cause you to avoid internships/residencies out of a desperate need to start paying off loans.

Having said that, I would consider MN IF AND ONLY IF I was absolutly certain I could gain residency by the second year. At that point, I would look at which school is a better fit for me temperment/learning/personality wise.

One other question, is there a difference in cost of living between the two? Always remember to factor in cost of living AND travel to visit family and such (if you will travel to see family and such.)

Just my opinion.
 
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About the residency-from what I heard at my interview, it seemed like it was pretty rare and very difficult to get residency in MN, so I wouldn't count on it.
 
OK, so I am a a huge advocate for going to the best financial option. Seriously, an extra 60k in initial debt will cost you far more in the long run, and could cause you to avoid internships/residencies out of a desperate need to start paying off loans.

Having said that, I would consider MN IF AND ONLY IF I was absolutly certain I could gain residency by the second year. At that point, I would look at which school is a better fit for me temperment/learning/personality wise.

One other question, is there a difference in cost of living between the two? Always remember to factor in cost of living AND travel to visit family and such (if you will travel to see family and such.)

Just my opinion.


Just off rent costs alone, what seems to be comparable apartments is $400 less a month and since I'm bringing my horses boarding is 100 less for even a nice facility (x2 horses) so figuring that in the cost difference would be 7,800. Thats not as bad as the $15,000 before. As far as traveling I prolly wouldn't go home except for christmas and thats it.
 
I agree with sumstorm that $60k is A LOT of money.

If you stay in-state, you may wonder for 4 years whether or not you would've been happier at Minnesota. But it seems that you'll spend decades being happy that you don't owe an additional year's salary. Especially when another huge expense comes up (down payment for a house, car, etc).

Good luck making your decision.:luck:
 
i haven't been to MN, or anywhere in the midwest for that matter, but davis is an awesome college town, near cities (sacto/ SF), farmland, coastline, mountains, etc. since it's a big undergrad/grad campus, there's all kinds of fun stuff for students- cafes, housing co-ops, activities.. (ugh, i wish i could go there.) the campus and town are flat and bike-able. also, the seasons. summer is hot and muggy, and winter is foggy, but it never gets cold enough to snow- it's about as moderate a climate as you'll find in a vet school town.
 
I completely disagree. Money is just money. Yeah, 60k seems like a lot but getting the most out of your education is worth far more than that. Any compromise on your education is a compromise on your career.

I don't know the specifics on the programs, but if there is a significant difference I say go with your heart. UC Davis is my first and only choice so its kinda hard to relate, but I could tell you with certainty that even if I had gotten into Cornell or Colorado with a 60k discount, I would still be going to Davis because I feel better about the shelter program there.

Good luck making your decision!
 
Thanks for posting this thread! I'm in a similar position... but not quite. I've been accepted to UC Davis but I am wait listed at UMN. I've decided to accept UC Davis.... but stay on the wait list for UMN just to see what happens. If I actually get in, I'll have the same decision on my hands! I really really enjoyed the Twin Cities area and the Davis area as well. I think my impression of UC Davis was a little different because I got the chance to sit in a lecture, get a personal tour from a student host and meet students. I was pleasantly surprised by the number of students with their dogs walking around campus!

No matter the decision, I am sure you will enjoy your veterinary education & life experiences. :nod:
 
I know a lot of people want to say 'money is just money' but if you really believe that, then complete school on your own dime WITHOUT borrowing money. If it is just money, and money doesn't need to be a serious consideration, that shouldn't be a problem. I speak as someone who hasn't had enough money to have a roof over my head and as someone who can afford to pay my own way through vet school. I KNOW how hard it is to pay student loans back...I am not conjecturing or theorizing about it. It is incredibly hard to predict the future, so minimizing debt now is wise.

So, again, look at TOTAL costs. Really sit down and write it out....cost of food in each area, cost of rent, fuel, taxes, electricity, water, any and all services that you will need. How far will you have to live from campus? How much will that commute cost you? Figure that out for all 4 years. Remember to add in costs for Dr. appts, medications (if your on any regular meds), care of animals, car repairs (these can vary greatly in different places.)

If you will travel home, even just once a year, calculate the travel costs and add to that schools 4 year total cost.

Remember with the schools to look at more than tuition...try to get at least an estimate annually on books and supplies.

Now, you should have the real cost of attendance.

What are you doing for the summers? Might need to add that in. Also, what happens if something goes wrong at home? Will you be ok saying 'sorry, I am not able to afford to visit you, even though you're really sick.' Alot of that depends on you. I didn't come home to help my father when his father died. I couldn't go home when my mother's father had a heart attack...or when my grandmother had treatment for cancer. Alot of that depends on you personally.

Once you have those numbers, use a calculator to figure out what you will owe. The one at www.finaid.org is decent.

Realize that additional debt can alter your ability to take an internship or residency. It can affect your ability to obtain housing, a vehicle (even a used vehicle), or a practice in your future. My husband works in finance..... I am not being overly dramatic. Don't rough in the numbers...really check it out. And check out cost of living indexes...make sure your numbers are making sense (I just read a study in statistics that compared how much people trust anecdotal experience over statistical information and how 'costly' that is...and it is amazing that people will here 'so and so only paid X for an apartment in Y place' and the X is way off the average and median and mode and that when a real search is conducted, the X isn't a real price that is available to the average consumer.)

I work with several vets now that opted not to do internships/residencies BECAUSE they felt to oppressed by the debt coming out of school...and who deeply regret that debt.

Finally, when you are thinking of your future, realize that your expected income is gross...pre tax. Don't forget taxes, that cost of living can increase, that it might require location ($) to be in the field of your choice (or to have a residency/internship), etc. All of these additional real costs are often lost when people calculate thier repayment. My back of the envelope on 60k additional in loans at 5% interest across thirty years is $322/mo (on top of what ever the comparable loan costs) with cummulative payments totaling ~$116,000 (interest is ~$56,000.)

Of course, just my opinion. I speak from my experience and my husband's experience and knowledge.
 
I as well am in a similar situation, though not quite the same. I declined my Davis interview after visiting MN and falling in love with it there, but I too have a dilemma as I also got into another school that will cost me $15,000 less a year in tuition. I have almost prettymuch convinced myself to just bite the bullet and go where my heart is but I understand your indecision. So lets all just go to MN, which we liked better, and we can mutually commiserate on how much extra it is costing us. :) I won't feel so bad about my decision if I know there are others who made the same decision I did about MN.:D
 
I know a lot of people want to say 'money is just money' but if you really believe that, then complete school on your own dime WITHOUT borrowing money. If it is just money, and money doesn't need to be a serious consideration, that shouldn't be a problem.

Finally, when you are thinking of your future, realize that your expected income is gross...pre tax. Don't forget taxes, that cost of living can increase, that it might require location ($) to be in the field of your choice (or to have a residency/internship), etc. All of these additional real costs are often lost when people calculate thier repayment. My back of the envelope on 60k additional in loans at 5% interest across thirty years is $322/mo (on top of what ever the comparable loan costs) with cummulative payments totaling ~$116,000 (interest is ~$56,000.)

Of course, just my opinion. I speak from my experience and my husband's experience and knowledge.

Thank you for that Summerstorm,

These are very good points, but also to be factored in must be the potential for additional income earned after being trained by the best in the field. Could you potentially make more in your practice life if you studied under so and so at University B, vs. the less expensive U. A? Is a DVM really just a DVM? Just a question you have to ask yourself, but in my case, it is a real dilemma for me.

I find it interesting that on these forums everyone seems to be strongly in favor of saving tuition money at all costs, but when I talk to others outside of these lists, I get almost the opposite advice. Both sides have their valid points. Hmm. :confused:
 
Could you potentially make more in your practice life if you studied under so and so at University B, vs. the less expensive U. A? Is a DVM really just a DVM? Just a question you have to ask yourself, but in my case, it is a real dilemma for me.

I find it interesting that on these forums everyone seems to be strongly in favor of saving tuition money at all costs, but when I talk to others outside of these lists, I get almost the opposite advice. Both sides have their valid points. Hmm. :confused:

So, start a list of EVERY veterinarian you know, and then write down a) what school they attended b) what residency they had c) who they studied with?

Now, go grab a random sampling of the clientele (including regions other than local) and ask them the same question.

That will tell you how valuable that info is. If you can do it and the clientele can do it, it could be important. If you can and they can't, they probably aren't considering it, and your focused on it because of your own interests.

When you refer to those outside these lists, who are you talking about? I would honestly think newly graduated vets (within 5 years) would be the ones with the most accurate evaluation of debt:income ratio and relevancy of program influence on career options. In some fields, the inability to handle the additional lower income of the residency years may be FAR more important than which school you attend.
 
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These are very good points, but also to be factored in must be the potential for additional income earned after being trained by the best in the field.

This is the exact reason why I'm going to the cheapest vet school. Saving all that money during the basic 4-year education (which won't really affect where you're at afterwards) is the only way it's POSSIBLE to be trained by the best in the field in enough depth for it to matter later (i.e. residency).
 
The programs are comparable but I felt that Minnesota had new technology (Letherdale center opened last year) and offered more in the two areas I'm interested in (equine sports medicine/orthopedic surgical and repro).

I am also considering IS vs. OOS and I am also equine-focused. I am picking between Penn, which has an amazing equine hospital and caseload, and Virginia (IS), which doesn't have the same reputation or caseload for equine.

To help me make my decision I have talked to a lot of new grads from various schools about their debt-loads, experiences, etc. I have also talked to older docs about their impression of new grads and how much your school matters in the long run, etc. I have gotten very very mixed answers! And everyone has a VERY strong opinion one way or the other!

I think everyone has brought up good points. It is really really important to look at it as emotion-free as possible and really calculate the finances. As many have pointed out, 60k can be a big difference in the long run. Until you are living in that debt, it is hard to imagine how it will impact your life. It is crucial to honestly put the time in, calculate it out, plan out how you intend to pay for this, and come up with a plan. If that is all said and done and you can justify it financially, go for it!

That being said, I do think Davis has an incredible equine program. It was definitely one of my top choices (they said thanks but no thanks to OOS me). They have a fantastic reputation and I am slightly jealous. :laugh: I don't know quite as much about MN, but I do have a good friend who is a recent grad and did her internship where I used to work and she is fantastic. I'd be happy to ask her any questions if you want :)

Now I just need to make my decision already...I really want to start getting excited/prepared for next year!
 
I would be ecstatic to be going to my IS school, but unfortunately I was rejected. An excellent education for a lower price... how could I ask for more? That's why I get frustrated when friends of mine (and random people on here, haha) would rather choose a more expensive school over their IS school. I agree with DVMorBust, spending less on the DVM education will open up more opportunities for you to take after graduating, and that's really where you're going to get the experience you need to become an expert in your field. If you have that extra $60,000 in debt, you might not want to go for a low-paying internship or residency in a high-cost area that might otherwise be a great experience for you.
 
This is the exact reason why I'm going to the cheapest vet school. Saving all that money during the basic 4-year education (which won't really affect where you're at afterwards) is the only way it's POSSIBLE to be trained by the best in the field in enough depth for it to matter later (i.e. residency).

Fantastically put.
 
In my case I have the choice of two out of state schools, the less expensive one has no faculty whatsoever in my field nor any training available, while the more expensive one has the leading expert in the field on staff and available to advise/guide me. I have already spoken to her about doing so and she has agreed. That would be why I would consider attending the more expensive one: a horrible program in my field, vs. an outstanding one. I have no intention of being "just a gp" practicioner, however I at this point may not bother with a residency or getting boarded in the field if I do not need to. If I go to the more expensive school I may not need the formal residency, if I go to the cheaper one I will have to do the residency, probably at the more expensive school in fact. So, factoring in an additional two or so years of school, and the lost earning potential from those years, makes the $60,000. up front cost not so intollerable.

In some specialties it does matter where you went. In opthomology it really does make a difference if you went to Cornell or CSU vs somewhere else. In my field it is Cornell once again or Minnesota. The clients don't have a clue, but the people hiring you do, as do those on the admissions boards at the schools offering the residencies. Summerstorm I know you are going into a field that does not pay too well, and where it probably does not matter where you go. For you I agree with your wisdom. For my field, yes the actual DVM school does matter some. Plus, I will be entering vet school with an MBA and a MS already. I really don't feel the need for even more fancy letters which is what a residency would get me. DVM MBA MS MS?
 
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I have no intention of being "just a gp" practicioner, however I at this point may not bother with a residency or getting boarded in the field if I do not need to. If I go to the more expensive school I may not need the formal residency, if I go to the cheaper one I will have to do the residency, probably at the more expensive school in fact.

Quick question. You didn't actually mention what specialty you are interested in pursuing, so I may be way off here and therefore I apologize in advance. My impression though is that unless you are interested in being a general practitioner, you need to do a residency and get boarded in whatever specialty field you are interested in pursuing. Is this not true? If you have a very rigorous vet school education in a specific field, can you avoid doing a residency?
 
the less expensive one has no faculty whatsoever in my field nor any training available, while the more expensive one has the leading expert in the field on staff and available to advise/guide me. I have already spoken to her about doing so and she has agreed. That would be why I would consider attending the more expensive one: a horrible program in my field, vs. an outstanding one.

out of curiosity, why did you apply to a school that doesn't have any faculty or training in the field you desire (which sounds a bit different than 'a horrible program' such as rather 'a lack of a program.')

I have no intention of being "just a gp" practicioner,....Summerstorm I know you are going into a field that does not pay too well, and where it probably does not matter where you go. I really don't feel the need for even more fancy letters which is what a residency would get me. DVM MBA MS MS?

Wow! Seriously, wow. I hope you don't mean that the way it sounded. I am currently deciding between epidemiology, lab med, and zoo med (probably due to remnants of my zoo career), but really, the front lines of animal medicine in our country are the LA/SA and mixed animal vets.
Since I don't know what field I am going into, I am really amazed that you do! Can you share the crystal ball? ;)

I guess I am ignorant of the fact that, apparently, all residencies lead to a masters....very interesting, I wonder why my boss, who completed a residency, has a certificate of residency instead of an MS? :confused:
 
Quick question. You didn't actually mention what specialty you are interested in pursuing, so I may be way off here and therefore I apologize in advance. My impression though is that unless you are interested in being a general practitioner, you need to do a residency and get boarded in whatever specialty field you are interested in pursuing. Is this not true? If you have a very rigorous vet school education in a specific field, can you avoid doing a residency?

My understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, at least around these parts, you can either have a board certification and be a specialist or not have a board certification and specialize in a specific area...in which case you just can't call yourself board-certified. Also, you can get board certification either through an internship/residency then tests or through other means - working in the field, publishing, seeing certain types of cases, etc. and then taking the test.
 
My understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, at least around these parts, you can either have a board certification and be a specialist or not have a board certification and specialize in a specific area...in which case you just can't call yourself board-certified. Also, you can get board certification either through an internship/residency then tests or through other means - working in the field, publishing, seeing certain types of cases, etc. and then taking the test.

That is my understanding as well. I have worked with 2 vets who specialized, but were not boarded, and one who was boarded. In my field (therio) to be boarded you have to do both large and small animals. Myself I have no interest in LA therio, so it might not be worth the trouble to become boarded. That is the conventional wisdom of some SA therio people. But I may change my mind in a few years, so I'll keep my options open.

As to SS's question as to why I applied to a less than desirable school -- because it was my backup plan if I did not get in anywhere else in the continental US. I figured it would be better for my situation that say Ross -- no slam on Ross, I just cannot take all my pets there.

Correct, you recieve the same degree no matter where you go: a DVM. That was my dillemma, is the opportunity for a better experience at MN worth the extra cost? For me I think so, but I totally understand that for most it would not be. It is a close call even for me, thus my indecision.
 
I think it's also important to keep in mind how the schools approach clinical rotations. I was looking at the MN website, and only saw a small number of actual coursework in SA repro (sorry canine - you got me curious about their program. I'm just throwing this out for other people who haven't made up their mind), and maybe a couple of electives for rotations. But a lot of schools will let you (and help you) set up rotations or externships off site - meaning that even if the school you go to doesn't have a great setup, you can still get the experience you're going to need during your education. It still wouldn't be worth it to me, but then, like Sumstorm, I'm not sure what area I'll wind up in exactly. The only thing I know for sure is that I do not want to do traditional SA gp work.
 
I as well am in a similar situation, though not quite the same. I declined my Davis interview after visiting MN and falling in love with it there, but I too have a dilemma as I also got into another school that will cost me $15,000 less a year in tuition. I have almost prettymuch convinced myself to just bite the bullet and go where my heart is but I understand your indecision. So lets all just go to MN, which we liked better, and we can mutually commiserate on how much extra it is costing us. :) I won't feel so bad about my decision if I know there are others who made the same decision I did about MN.:D


LOL ok deal and I'll hold you to that. I just can't get over how much I fell in love with everything there and loved the feel of the city.
 
I think only you can fully evaluate what is most importane to you and what will make you happy . . . that being said, and know that I know nada re: MN, I just want to let you know that while the interviewers do drill and seem all stuffy that things may not be as they appear. I lived in davis for a few years and interviewed last year and felt really WTF who are these people after my interview last year and i mentioned this to another prof there afterwards and he said he was shocked because he knew my interviewers pforessionally and said they were some of the mellowest most laid-back coolest guys he knew- and this year i had a couple of the same guys and they seemed nicer this year so I wouldn't think at all that davis is unfriendly or that they wanna drill you and work you to the ground or anything like that-once you're part of the team i think everyone's super nice and supportive for the most part. I'm sure you could work in summer research or residency or something that involved MN if you wanted to. YOU make your future and what YOU do with what your given is what i think is most important . . . maybe you'll discover a new technique or method to study what you want to study that blows the MN technology out of the water? ALSO though-you wanna be happy everyday so if it's a real big diff for you i'd go wherever make u happy . .
 
In my case I have the choice of two out of state schools, the less expensive one has no faculty whatsoever in my field nor any training available, while the more expensive one has the leading expert in the field on staff and available to advise/guide me. I have already spoken to her about doing so and she has agreed. That would be why I would consider attending the more expensive one: a horrible program in my field, vs. an outstanding one. I have no intention of being "just a gp" practicioner, however I at this point may not bother with a residency or getting boarded in the field if I do not need to. If I go to the more expensive school I may not need the formal residency, if I go to the cheaper one I will have to do the residency, probably at the more expensive school in fact. So, factoring in an additional two or so years of school, and the lost earning potential from those years, makes the $60,000. up front cost not so intollerable.

In some specialties it does matter where you went. In opthomology it really does make a difference if you went to Cornell or CSU vs somewhere else. In my field it is Cornell once again or Minnesota. The clients don't have a clue, but the people hiring you do, as do those on the admissions boards at the schools offering the residencies. Summerstorm I know you are going into a field that does not pay too well, and where it probably does not matter where you go. For you I agree with your wisdom. For my field, yes the actual DVM school does matter some. Plus, I will be entering vet school with an MBA and a MS already. I really don't feel the need for even more fancy letters which is what a residency would get me. DVM MBA MS MS?
Look at all the experts in your field...did they do their DVM at MN...or their residency? And although you do not believe now that you will go into residency, you should realize it is very few residents that do their residency at the vet school they got their DVM from (some call that "inbreeding"). So you may be giving up the chance to do a residency at a place which has the best in your chosen field, by attending that vet school for your DVM. Just something to consider.
 
My understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, at least around these parts, you can either have a board certification and be a specialist or not have a board certification and specialize in a specific area...in which case you just can't call yourself board-certified.

Nope you cannot call yourself a specialist legally unless you are board certified. If you are not board certified, you can only say that you have a "special interest" in a certain field. You risk getting sued if you call youself a specialist and are not boarded.
 
Nope you cannot call yourself a specialist legally unless you are board certified. If you are not board certified, you can only say that you have a "special interest" in a certain field. You risk getting sued if you call youself a specialist and are not boarded.

I meant 'specialize' as in 'have a narrower focus in a particular area', and that's why I specified you cannot call yourself a specialist. Maybe I should have said 'you can be a specialist or you can emphasize an area, as long as you don't portray yourself as a gen-u-ine specialist'.

Dear me...I think I'm just too fond of the verb 'to specialize'...ha
 
Look at all the experts in your field...did they do their DVM at MN...or their residency? And although you do not believe now that you will go into residency, you should realize it is very few residents that do their residency at the vet school they got their DVM from (some call that "inbreeding"). So you may be giving up the chance to do a residency at a place which has the best in your chosen field, by attending that vet school for your DVM. Just something to consider.

It may just be here, but it doesn't seem to me like academic inbreeding is as frowned upon in vet med as it is in other fields in academia. I personally know at least two professors here who went from undergrad->vet school->residency/PhD->professorship all here. I thought it was kind of odd as well, because I am used to other fields where the idea is "go up in rank each time to end up with a job one rank lower than where you did your PhD" essentially. Maybe it's because of the relative dearth of vet schools, especially in less common areas, I don't know...
 
Look at all the experts in your field...did they do their DVM at MN...or their residency? And although you do not believe now that you will go into residency, you should realize it is very few residents that do their residency at the vet school they got their DVM from (some call that "inbreeding"). So you may be giving up the chance to do a residency at a place which has the best in your chosen field, by attending that vet school for your DVM. Just something to consider.

Chris
You seem to have a bit of knowledge in my particular field, although you have not said so directly. If so I would love to talk to you directly.

The thing with my chosen field of endeavor, which is canine theriogenology if anyone has not figured it out by now, is that it is a relatively new area, and is a fringe group of the bigger LA repro based reproduction community.

To answer your question, I am pretty much the beginning of the second generation in my field, although age wise I am not all that much younger than the generation before. :p From my research, there are 3 big schools in my field: MN, Cornell, and OSU. Now, I am currently a grad student at the original dog repro center -- Colorado State. Anymore, there are not any canine people left here, which is why I am leaving. OSU's reputation from what I have been able to find out is tied to one big practicioner/face who also guest lectures there. He is getting up in years, although I am sure Hutch will be around long after I am done and can still kick my butt. Cornell is as always the leader in theoretical research. Other than that MN is about it, and has the person I fit in with best temperment-wise. When I asked the other two people of the three who basically wrote the bible for my field, they both told me in no uncertain term to talk to #3. So, that is why I think I will go there.

As I have stated elsewhere, the choices I have made for myself are not those most would make. I have decided that taking my chances and throwing my eggs in one basket seems to work out best for me, I am a pretty intense individual. In addition, I do not have a wife (2 was enough) or offspring to worry about. It is just me and a bunch of dogs from here on out and I have accepted my fate of fighting for space with them on the bed at night. I have had a really cool life up to this point. I have played hockey professionally, I have shown dogs professionally, and I have yet to work a 9-5 job a day in my life. I have yet to use my MBA to any advantage. For that great privalege I have paid a high price. One not many would be willing to pay. I know I will never be wealthy again. I do not advise anyone else to follow in my path, yes my nose has been broken more than a few times. That is just me. But, i appreciate the input many others have given me, and believe me I have thought it over long and hard. I really have agonized over this decision, which to my mind is the most important I will ever make -- what vet school to go to.:eek:

Thank you very much for the advice people, I have taken it to heart really.

Kai
 
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