Income for Private PT clinic

ONstudentPT · Jul 27, 2006

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guetzow · Jul 28, 2006

jesse14 · Jul 28, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hello,

I was wondering what an average net income for a physio owned clinic in Canada or the US would be assuming this clinic has survived and has been running for a while.

I am still a PT student here in Ontario so I probably won't be opening a clinic for another couple of years. I can understand that there are numerous variables that will determine your income as a private clinic owner but I was just looking for an average.

Also what is the success rate for physio owned clinics. What is the potential income, for instance what are the highest numbers anyone has heard of? Owners of multiple clinics?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Ht ONstudentPT,

I'm sorry because i can't really help you with your question because i simply don't know but i do have one to ask of my own. What ontario PT school do you go to? Do you enjoy it and what you are learning? I woudl love to learn more about PT due to the fact that i'm going to be a DC and would enjoy colaberation with PT's at some point in time.

Thank you

ONstudentPT · Jul 28, 2006

jesse14 said:
Ht ONstudentPT,

I'm sorry because i can't really help you with your question because i simply don't know but i do have one to ask of my own. What ontario PT school do you go to? Do you enjoy it and what you are learning? I woudl love to learn more about PT due to the fact that i'm going to be a DC and would enjoy colaberation with PT's at some point in time.

Thank you

Hello Jesse,

I am a student at Mac and it is a challenging but very interesting program. I would like to warn you about one thing though. In gereral there is very little colaboration between PTs and DCs. The two professions are very seperate from each other and a lot PTs are very reluctant to work with DCs. PTs are evidence-based but DCs are more psuedo science influenced.

I have a friend in DCs school right now in Toronto. I just spoke to him this week and he is very worried about his future. He says the market is way too saturated for chiros (there are 60 PT clinics in my area and 120 DCs) and there is a huge amount of negativity about the profession. Anyways he says that he is trying to find a way out and so are many of his friends. He said he already wasted about 30 grand and he is thinking of going into PT but he doesnt have the marks. I told him to take a year off and upgrade his marks and not waste anymore money.

So basically I would be caustious about going into DC. Make sure you do all your research and find out the truth not what you hear from the colleges. If you can get into PT I would reccomend it. There are lots of jobs for PTs and they have a way better working relationship with the general public and physicians as well.

Good Luck!

jesse14 · Jul 28, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hello Jesse,

I am a student at Mac and it is a challenging but very interesting program. I would like to warn you about one thing though. In gereral there is very little colaboration between PTs and DCs. The two professions are very seperate from each other and a lot PTs are very reluctant to work with DCs. PTs are evidence-based but DCs are more psuedo science influenced.

I have a friend in DCs school right now in Toronto. I just spoke to him this week and he is very worried about his future. He says the market is way too saturated for chiros (there are 60 PT clinics in my area and 120 DCs) and there is a huge amount of negativity about the profession. Anyways he says that he is trying to find a way out and so are many of his friends. He said he already wasted about 30 grand and he is thinking of going into PT but he doesnt have the marks. I told him to take a year off and upgrade his marks and not waste anymore money.

So basically I would be caustious about going into DC. Make sure you do all your research and find out the truth not what you hear from the colleges. If you can get into PT I would reccomend it. There are lots of jobs for PTs and they have a way better working relationship with the general public and physicians as well.

Good Luck!

Just a question.. what can PT's do that DC's can't? This is NOT to bash PT's in the least but isn't PT training only 2 years after your undergrad where as DC school is a 4 year doctorate degree (cmcc has degree granting privleges). I actually have done a lot of research and found DC patienst to be more satisfied with their treatment outcomes vs PT's. I'm not entirley sure about this, but are PT's alowed to render a diagnosis? I know DC's by law must dx a patient so they can be referred out when needed. I was considering PT school for along time. I went to western and queens to see their facilities actually and it's still in the back of my mind. Oh yeah, please tell me of the pseudoscience you speak ok? If you are refering to the subluxation BS than i FULLY agree with you. That to me is crap as well. That's why i want to go to the cmcc because they tend to lean against that rational as the cause of all disease.

However, i am interested in knowing more bout your friends and his friends at the CMCC. What about the program don't they like? Are they just scared for the future? I guess i might be one of the few lucky ones because my dad has been a DC for 26 years and he has a wealth on information that i can use when starting my own practice.

with all of that said. I havn't ruled out PT as a possible career choice. I respect what they do and feel it's a rewarding career. It's a small chance but i havn't completley ruled it out.
But i do have one more thought. Arn't there 4 PT schools in ontario (western,mac,toronto and queens)? And say each school graduates 40 PT's a year (that's on the conservative side) then that's 160 new PT's in ontario a year... that doesn't even count all the other PT schools in Canada. Now, there are only 2 DC schools in all of Canada and only one english speaking one (cmcc). The CMCC gradutes between 180-190 DC's a year for basically all of Canada. I know some area's are saturated with DC's (the GTA for one) but there are many areas in Canada where there are very few, if any, DC's. So, it would seem to me that there are way more PT's graduating each year than there are DC's. Wouldn't you say?

I look forward to more discussion with you!

Take care

ONstudentPT · Jul 28, 2006

Just a question.. what can PT's do that DC's can't?

Well this a simple response but what PTs can do and DCs cant is physiotherapy. The only thing that I have heard that DCs are beneficial in is providing some temporary relief of lower pack pain and PTs are just as able to get these results are DCs. But PTs have proven scientifically that they are able to treat many other conditions as well. DCs have done experiments too but the problem is that they are done by Chiropractic Colleges or other chiro sources and result in very bias outcomes.

This is NOT to bash PT's in the least but isn't PT training only 2 years after your undergrad where as DC school is a 4 year doctorate degree (cmcc has degree granting privleges).

Yes the DCs training is longer but by no means superior. PTs traing is very vigerous and indepth. Also to get into a physiotherapy program is much more competitive. Just to be invited to an interview you need to have a GPA between 3.62-3.65 or up to 82%. Although the average of the PTs which are admitted is considerably higher. This means that PT programs have a much higher caliber of students. I could have easily gotten into chiro school but decided to go with PT.

I actually have done a lot of research and found DC patienst to be more satisfied with their treatment outcomes vs PT's.

I dont know where you got this research from but its not true. Infact when I talk to people many of them say that they feel chiropractic was a waste of time and in some cases made the problem worse. (Its funny cause I just talked to someone who had this issue just a few hours ago).

However, i am interested in knowing more bout your friends and his friends at the CMCC. What about the program don't they like? Are they just scared for the future?

Yes he is worried about the future and the fact that someone who is in chiro school is worried and wants to change careers would be a huge red flag for me!

I guess i might be one of the few lucky ones because my dad has been a DC for 26 years and he has a wealth on information that i can use when starting my own practice.

If your dad really is a chiropractor than he should be able to give you an idea of the problems that the profession is facing.

Arn't there 4 PT schools in ontario (western,mac,toronto and queens)? And say each school graduates 40 PT's a year (that's on the conservative side) then that's 160 new PT's in ontario a year... that doesn't even count all the other PT schools in Canada. Now, there are only 2 DC schools in all of Canada and only one english speaking one (cmcc). The CMCC gradutes between 180-190 DC's a year for basically all of Canada. I know some area's are saturated with DC's (the GTA for one) but there are many areas in Canada where there are very few, if any, DC's. So, it would seem to me that there are way more PT's graduating each year than there are DC's. Wouldn't you say?

Its true there are more PTs but you have to look at the job market. PTs have considerably more options. They can work in a hospital, A clinic,
as an independent contractor for a medical company or a school board, they work with a sports team even work with the olympic sports teams, they can own their own clinics, there are numerous sub specialities and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors). Chiropractors only real option is to open thier own clinic. Look at job search sites like workopolis or go to the OPA and CPA websites they are filled with job postings for PTs and then try searching for chiro jobs to see the difference.

So you cant really compare PTs to DCs to very different worlds.

ONstudentPT · Jul 28, 2006

I just wanted to add that the saturation of Chiropractors in Ontario has probably a lot to do with all the graduates from the US colleges as well. If you check on the yellowpages website you will see that there is about 2500 physio clinics in ontario and about 7500 chiro clinics in ontario. So you do the math....

ONstudentPT · Jul 28, 2006

Sorry correction !! If you check on the yellowpages website you will see that there is about 2500 physio businesses in CANADA and about 7500 chiro businesses in CANADA and about 3500 chiro businesses in ontario versus about 1400 physio businesses.

jesse14 · Jul 29, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Just a question.. what can PT's do that DC's can't?

Well this a simple response but what PTs can do and DCs cant is physiotherapy. The only thing that I have heard that DCs are beneficial in is providing some temporary relief of lower pack pain and PTs are just as able to get these results are DCs. But PTs have proven scientifically that they are able to treat many other conditions as well. DCs have done experiments too but the problem is that they are done by Chiropractic Colleges or other chiro sources and result in very bias outcomes.

This is NOT to bash PT's in the least but isn't PT training only 2 years after your undergrad where as DC school is a 4 year doctorate degree (cmcc has degree granting privleges).

Yes the DCs training is longer but by no means superior. PTs traing is very vigerous and indepth. Also to get into a physiotherapy program is much more competitive. Just to be invited to an interview you need to have a GPA between 3.62-3.65 or up to 82%. Although the average of the PTs which are admitted is considerably higher. This means that PT programs have a much higher caliber of students. I could have easily gotten into chiro school but decided to go with PT.

I actually have done a lot of research and found DC patienst to be more satisfied with their treatment outcomes vs PT's.

I dont know where you got this research from but its not true. Infact when I talk to people many of them say that they feel chiropractic was a waste of time and in some cases made the problem worse. (Its funny cause I just talked to someone who had this issue just a few hours ago).

However, i am interested in knowing more bout your friends and his friends at the CMCC. What about the program don't they like? Are they just scared for the future?

Yes he is worried about the future and the fact that someone who is in chiro school is worried and wants to change careers would be a huge red flag for me!

I guess i might be one of the few lucky ones because my dad has been a DC for 26 years and he has a wealth on information that i can use when starting my own practice.

If your dad really is a chiropractor than he should be able to give you an idea of the problems that the profession is facing.

Arn't there 4 PT schools in ontario (western,mac,toronto and queens)? And say each school graduates 40 PT's a year (that's on the conservative side) then that's 160 new PT's in ontario a year... that doesn't even count all the other PT schools in Canada. Now, there are only 2 DC schools in all of Canada and only one english speaking one (cmcc). The CMCC gradutes between 180-190 DC's a year for basically all of Canada. I know some area's are saturated with DC's (the GTA for one) but there are many areas in Canada where there are very few, if any, DC's. So, it would seem to me that there are way more PT's graduating each year than there are DC's. Wouldn't you say?

Its true there are more PTs but you have to look at the job market. PTs have considerably more options. They can work in a hospital, A clinic,
as an independent contractor for a medical company or a school board, they work with a sports team even work with the olympic sports teams, they can own their own clinics, there are numerous sub specialities and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors). Chiropractors only real option is to open thier own clinic. Look at job search sites like workopolis or go to the OPA and CPA websites they are filled with job postings for PTs and then try searching for chiro jobs to see the difference.

So you cant really compare PTs to DCs to very different worlds.

I'm sorry ONstudent PT, i'm still confused.
You told me that DC's "cant do PT" but PT's can" (thank's or that astounding answer lol 😉BUt seriosly, DC's can and do use Ice, heat, ultrasound, traction, orthotics, streching, strength and nutrition programs, TENS, adjustments, x-ray anaylsis (which i believe PT's can't do). They also can do in home assesments and MVA cases. What more can a PT do?

Physiotherapy includes, but is not limited to:

Assessment of clients with actual or potential impairments, pain, functional limitations, disabilities or other health-related conditions using detailed history-taking, as well as specific tests and measures for screening, establishing a diagnosis and monitoring.
Diagnosis resulting from assessment findings and clinical reasoning to determine abilities, functional needs and potential for change.
Planning an intervention strategy that addresses the prognosis and follow-up and incorporates the application of selected approaches and techniques supported by the best evidence available.
Implementing selected interventions safely to relieve pain; achieve and maintain health and fitness, functional independence and physical performance; and manage the identified impairments, disabilities and limits to participation.
Evaluation of health status as a baseline for monitoring or to determine the result, impact or effectiveness of physiotherapy intervention.
Education of the profession, other health professionals, the public and clients with the intention of transferring knowledge and skills and developing understanding, independence and competence.
Consultation that provides professional advice and solutions addressing a wide range of health service and health status issues.
Research that encompasses the application of critical inquiry, as well as participation in or assessment of findings from research activities.
Service management related to planning, directing, organizing and monitoring service delivery and effective utilization of resources

Source from: http://www.physiotherapy.ca/whatis.htm

What in that list of things PT's can do can DC's not do? Maybe you know more than me, but i don't see much...

I think a problem you might have is that you are associating the problems with in chiropractic (it has its fair shair) with the quality of treatment they can provide. I by no mean say chiropractic is perfect because there are those BS chiro's who say chiro can cure all types of viceral complaints. I laugh when i see chiro's claim they treat ADD, collic, and asthma. To me, that just brings down the profession. The laws in ontario allow DC's to claim they can treat these things, and i would be all for a revised set of legislations that clearly outline what chiro's can trully do... which is NMSK care

As for those numerous jobs you speak of. I agree, there are many more PT positions than DC positions available. BUT i do have something to add to that. My father, a DC of 26 years, has been approached by PT's over the years who want to time share his office and run a practice together. My dad did this for almost a year with a PT but he actually found the PT to be lying and scaming his patients which he does not stand for. Also, have you actually followed up on these PT positions that are advertised? If you want to work 35-40 hours a week and make $40 000 a year, be my guest because thats more or less what most of these positions are offereing to recent grads. One of my best friends is in 1st year PT school at UBC and he loves the program. However, he has worries about his future.. i believe most young people who are going to debt for school are worried about their future to some degree. That's healthy in my opinion.

Overall, i want to worth with and not against PT's because whatever get the patient better is what's best for me. Now, if that;s a problem for you than i'm sorry you feel that way.

Oh yea, here's a web site that has links to some studied that were done which show patient satisfaction with chiropractic:
http://www.ccachiro.org/client/cca/cca.nsf/web/Patient Satisfaction?OpenDocument

I look forward to future discussions with you.

Take care!

ONstudentPT · Jul 29, 2006

jesse14 said:
I'm sorry ONstudent PT, i'm still confused.
You told me that DC's "cant do PT" but PT's can" (thank's or that astounding answer lol 😉BUt seriosly, DC's can and do use Ice, heat, ultrasound, traction, orthotics, streching, strength and nutrition programs, TENS, adjustments, x-ray anaylsis (which i believe PT's can't do). They also can do in home assesments and MVA cases. What more can a PT do?

Physiotherapy includes, but is not limited to:

Assessment of clients with actual or potential impairments, pain, functional limitations, disabilities or other health-related conditions using detailed history-taking, as well as specific tests and measures for screening, establishing a diagnosis and monitoring.
Diagnosis resulting from assessment findings and clinical reasoning to determine abilities, functional needs and potential for change.
Planning an intervention strategy that addresses the prognosis and follow-up and incorporates the application of selected approaches and techniques supported by the best evidence available.
Implementing selected interventions safely to relieve pain; achieve and maintain health and fitness, functional independence and physical performance; and manage the identified impairments, disabilities and limits to participation.
Evaluation of health status as a baseline for monitoring or to determine the result, impact or effectiveness of physiotherapy intervention.
Education of the profession, other health professionals, the public and clients with the intention of transferring knowledge and skills and developing understanding, independence and competence.
Consultation that provides professional advice and solutions addressing a wide range of health service and health status issues.
Research that encompasses the application of critical inquiry, as well as participation in or assessment of findings from research activities.
Service management related to planning, directing, organizing and monitoring service delivery and effective utilization of resources

Source from: http://www.physiotherapy.ca/whatis.htm

What in that list of things PT's can do can DC's not do? Maybe you know more than me, but i don't see much...

I think a problem you might have is that you are associating the problems with in chiropractic (it has its fair shair) with the quality of treatment they can provide. I by no mean say chiropractic is perfect because there are those BS chiro's who say chiro can cure all types of viceral complaints. I laugh when i see chiro's claim they treat ADD, collic, and asthma. To me, that just brings down the profession. The laws in ontario allow DC's to claim they can treat these things, and i would be all for a revised set of legislations that clearly outline what chiro's can trully do... which is NMSK care

As for those numerous jobs you speak of. I agree, there are many more PT positions than DC positions available. BUT i do have something to add to that. My father, a DC of 26 years, has been approached by PT's over the years who want to time share his office and run a practice together. My dad did this for almost a year with a PT but he actually found the PT to be lying and scaming his patients which he does not stand for. Also, have you actually followed up on these PT positions that are advertised? If you want to work 35-40 hours a week and make $40 000 a year, be my guest because thats more or less what most of these positions are offereing to recent grads. One of my best friends is in 1st year PT school at UBC and he loves the program. However, he has worries about his future.. i believe most young people who are going to debt for school are worried about their future to some degree. That's healthy in my opinion.

Overall, i want to worth with and not against PT's because whatever get the patient better is what's best for me. Now, if that;s a problem for you than i'm sorry you feel that way.

Oh yea, here's a web site that has links to some studied that were done which show patient satisfaction with chiropractic:
http://www.ccachiro.org/client/cca/cca.nsf/web/Patient Satisfaction?OpenDocument

I look forward to future discussions with you.

Take care!

Hey jesse,

Ok my point is not to try to sell physiotherapy(there is no reason for me to do that) I am just trying to tell you that the two professions are very seperate from eachother. Unfortunately you are right that many DCs do try to offer all the services that PTs do but the difference is like you said the quality of the treatment and the difference in the quality of the education. PTs are trained at a reputable university and have extensive evidence-based knowledge in physiotherapy. Physiotherapy is best provided to the public by a Registered physiotherapist hence the title "Physiotherapist".

Most PTs are not making $40 000 a year ( thats a part-time salary about 20 hours a week) so i dont know where you got that figure from. I agree that PTs working in a hospital do not make huge amounts of money. I have a friend who just graduated and she got a job at a hospital for $55 000 a year (30 dollars an hour 38 hours) a week as her starting salary this is a fact. At a hospital job you will prolly max at about 65-70 000 unless you go into supervisory positions then you can make up to 90 000 but you also have to remember that you have benefits and paid holidays as perks. Now if you are working for private sector you are going to be making more starting at around 38-42 dollars an hour and making up to 80-90 000 in about 3-5 years (if you work as an independent contractor you can save on your taxes as well). Now if you decide to open your own clinic well then the numbers are variable depending on how hard you work and how much luck you have ( anywhere from 40 000 - 160 000 a year)

The debt that avg PTs student accumulate is about 20 000 in tutition. My friend told me that as a DC he is looking at about 80 000 just for tutition and up 120 000 in debt all together.

Now dont get me wrong it is very hard to start up a business no matter what profession you are in but you failed to acknowledge my earlier post:"If you check on the www.yellowpages.ca website you will see that there is about 2500 physio businesses in CANADA and about 7500 chiro businesses in CANADA and about 3500 chiro businesses in ontario versus about 1400 physio businesses". Now that would be a cause for concern for me.

You have to remember that the DC colleges are trying to make money.. they dont care about your future and what will happen to you if they have your money.

Now the sources you are giving me about chiro are from the canadian chiropractic association .. it seems a little bias too me.

Most of the PTs I know .. would not work with a chiro because they dont want to be exploited by them and be billed for the treatments that chiro cant bill for and also because of the flawed and often dangerous chiro philosophies and treatments (ie chiro can cause strokes and death). Plus there is just such a bad stigma in the healthcare field about chiros .... I am not saying Chiros are bad people or individuals .. i am just saying physiotherapist and chiropractors are very different and I personally wouldnt mix the two.

Talk to you later !

ONstudentPT · Aug 2, 2006

This not how I expected this thread to go.. oh well

jesse14 · Aug 3, 2006

g

ONstudentPT said:
Hey jesse,
First off, sorry for the delay in responce. Earlier this week i spent over an hour responding to your msg and when i clicked 'submit reply' for some reason, my entire responce got deleted. So here's round two..

Ok my point is not to try to sell physiotherapy(there is no reason for me to do that) I am just trying to tell you that the two professions are very seperate from eachother. Unfortunately you are right that many DCs do try to offer all the services that PTs do but the difference is like you said the quality of the treatment and the difference in the quality of the education. PTs are trained at a reputable university and have extensive evidence-based knowledge in physiotherapy. Physiotherapy is best provided to the public by a Registered physiotherapist hence the title "Physiotherapist".

My question is this. How are physio and chiros so seperate? If you were comparing say dentists or lawyers to physios then i would achknowledge your point. BUt the fact is most of what PTs do is overlaped my what DC's do. Also, why is it "unfortunate" that DCs offer many of the same modalities at PTs?? Where did i say the quality of DC services is inferior to that of a PT? That is not at all what i think. May i remind you that the DC is a doctorate that is 4 years in length? The PT is a masters level that requires 2 additional years after undergrad. Are you trying to tell me that in the 20 extra months of education, DC's have less ability than PT's to dx and treat NMSK problems? I think not. I assume when you are referring to the "evidence based" issue that is lacking in DC education you are referring to the alusive 'subluxation' which i feel is crap considering no two people can agree upon what a subluxation even is. BUt, do me a favor. Go to www.cmcc.ca and look through their course outlines. They have, with the advent of their new EVIDENCE BASED curriculum, taken subluxation out of their curriculum. You then go on to speak of how Pt schools are run by universities. This is a point i can't argue with. You guys get a lot on money that DC's don't get via your university affiliation. However, i would like to make a point using an analgy i came up with (its childish but i feel in conveys the political climate regarding the cmcc and some Ontario universities). Chiropractic was like the weird kid in school that non of the cool kids (the universities) really liked or accepted into their social groups. As the weird kid grew up, matured, and became more responsible (as DC education has done in the past 10 years), he tried to hang with the cool kids. Now, these cool kids have a reputation to maintain any one cool kid that decided to affiliate himself with this now grown up kid runs the risk of being shuned by his peers. So, even though some kids ( i.e York U) tried to affiliate with the new guy, there were few within this kids group that were too scared to affiliate with a new and unknown kid. Basically, this analgy is saying that universities are scared to affiliate with the cmcc because thet don't want to be the first to do it. They don't want run the risk of losing credability due to the stigma there is associated with the old ways of chiropractic. I know that was a dumb analgy but i feel it does explain what's happening.

One more quick point. The CMCC is affiliated with a hospital beceuase it runs a chiro clinic from St. Johns Rehabilitation Hospital:
http://www.stjohnsrehab.com/fee_practic.htm
I doubt a hospital would allow non EB practices to be had within its building.

Most PTs are not making $40 000 a year ( thats a part-time salary about 20 hours a week) so i dont know where you got that figure from. I agree that PTs working in a hospital do not make huge amounts of money. I have a friend who just graduated and she got a job at a hospital for $55 000 a year (30 dollars an hour 38 hours) a week as her starting salary this is a fact. At a hospital job you will prolly max at about 65-70 000 unless you go into supervisory positions then you can make up to 90 000 but you also have to remember that you have benefits and paid holidays as perks. Now if you are working for private sector you are going to be making more starting at around 38-42 dollars an hour and making up to 80-90 000 in about 3-5 years (if you work as an independent contractor you can save on your taxes as well). Now if you decide to open your own clinic well then the numbers are variable depending on how hard you work and how much luck you have ( anywhere from 40 000 - 160 000 a year)

As far as salary is concerned, i basically got the numbers i git my asking the DCs i know who employ Pts in their clinics or who have PTs rent space from them. I heard nu,bers ranging from 40-50 grand. However, i will say that the PT's are getting this income from only 30-35 hours a week of work. Which does leave time to do part time work at a hospital and make more. To relate this to DC's. More and more Dcs are working in hospital settings so there income can also be on salary. Here are a few links to some DC;s in hospitals:
http://www.winchesterhospitalchiro.com/
http://www.tricare.osd.mil/chiropractic/location.htm

The debt that avg PTs student accumulate is about 20 000 in tutition. My friend told me that as a DC he is looking at about 80 000 just for tutition and up 120 000 in debt all together.

You are correct, DC education os expensive. You can't really compare the costs of PT and DC education because DC education is double the length of PT education which translates into more tuition fees for the extra time in school and PT education is partly subsidized by the University where as DC education is not.

Now dont get me wrong it is very hard to start up a business no matter what profession you are in but you failed to acknowledge my earlier post:"If you check on the www.yellowpages.ca website you will see that there is about 2500 physio businesses in CANADA and about 7500 chiro businesses in CANADA and about 3500 chiro businesses in ontario versus about 1400 physio businesses". Now that would be a cause for concern for me.

Once again, no argument there. Starting a practice ain't easy but it's doable. The saturation of DC's in some areas (the GTA for one) makes it hard to gain clients. This is just the reality of business. It by no means DC's are incompetend in rendering care. Also, you must remember, as you pointed out, that many PTs work in hospitals on a full time bases. These arb't listed in the yellow pages. These PTs are still competition for pTs in private practice as well. There are more DC businesses posted on the web site because most DCs run a practice instead of working in a hospital setting (although this is changing a bit). Therefore, its hard to say that there are way more DCs in Ontario than PTs.

You have to remember that the DC colleges are trying to make money.. they dont care about your future and what will happen to you if they have your money.
I'm sorry, i wasn't aware PT schools are charitable organization haha. re you saying they arn't trying to make money as well?? Lastly, the CMCC is a non for profit institution that only requires tuition fees to mainatin the builing and pay its staff. These fees are payed for by the university in a PT school. It sucks, but that's the reality of the situation.

Now the sources you are giving me about chiro are from the canadian chiropractic association .. it seems a little bias too me.

Did you actually even read who conducted these studied and who published them? For instance, the New England Journal of Medicine published one of the studied i mentioned on patient satisfaction. So are you saying that chiro association shouldn't post sites that show its benifits?? Once again, the sources arn't from chiropractors..

Most of the PTs I know .. would not work with a chiro because they dont want to be exploited by them and be billed for the treatments that chiro cant bill for and also because of the flawed and often dangerous chiro philosophies and treatments (ie chiro can cause strokes and death). Plus there is just such a bad stigma in the healthcare field about chiros .... I am not saying Chiros are bad people or individuals .. i am just saying physiotherapist and chiropractors are very different and I personally wouldnt mix the two.

I will respond to that gargabe in a seperate responce because i must head to work now. I want to ask you this. Do you REALLY believe a DC can cause death?? If so, i guess these 7500 chiro businsess should be shut down and the DCs working in them put in jail 😀

Take care!

Talk to you later !

ONstudentPT · Aug 3, 2006

Hey jesse,

Ok again you cant compare the length of a program to the quality. I believe the length of the DC program has something to do with the schools trying to make as much money as possible.

"Lastly, the CMCC is a non for profit institution that only requires tuition fees to mainatin the builing and pay its staff."

It's a tax shelter. They load up the salaries of the administrators. The Chronicle of Higher Education found that Sid Williams DC at Life University was making 1,000,000 per year.

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/salary.html

This can happen because there is no real regulation of nonprofit colleges. I wonder what the salaries for CMCC are....??

"Basically, this analgy is saying that universities are scared to affiliate with the cmcc because thet don't want to be the first to do it. They don't want run the risk of losing credability due to the stigma there is associated with the old ways of chiropractic."

Exaclty the stigma that is associated with chiropractics and a stigma that I dont believe the profession will ever be able to get away from. Now I believe there are chiros who truly want to help patients get better and do it using EBM care and get away from the damaging pholosophies associated with chiro. But if they do this then they will be basically trying to do what phyiotherapists are to doing(without the proper physiotherapy education)... so why wouldnt they just go to physio school save some money on tutuion, have many opportunities(not having to worry ever about finding a job and still haveing the option of running your own clinic) , having a better relationship with mainstream healthcare, having the option to go onto do a PhD. and being able to treat patients without all the stigma associated with chiro??? I believe the reason for this (at least i know it was for some of my friends who are in chiro school now) that most chiro students unfortunately(lets be honest now) could not get into physio school with a 3.65 GPA needed just to recieve an interview and the average entering GPA of over 3.7 this was not an option for them. My advice to one of my friends was take a year off and upgrade your marks .. luckly with physio you have that option of being able to upgrade your marks part-time.

"I heard nu,bers ranging from 40-50 grand. However, i will say that the PT's are getting this income from only 30-35 hours a week of work."

Its more like 20-30 hours a week for 40-50 grand for part-time which means full-time would about 80-90 grand( not in the hospital).

"Also, you must remember, as you pointed out, that many PTs work in hospitals on a full time bases. These arb't listed in the yellow pages. These PTs are still competition for pTs in private practice as well."

How could these PTs be competition for the private clinics. That makes no sense. And the saturation problem is not just in the GTA.. take a look at any city and you will know what I am talking about.

And come on now DCs being able to work in hospitals the same way PTs do will just never happen .. the MDs would have a field day..

Ok with the whole stroke and death thing .. maybe I was a little harsh .. but reality is that it is a possiblilty and the affects that it could have an the chiropractic businesses would devastating with all the potential media coverage ... chiros wont need to have thier offices shut down by the police .. they will be forced to close due to the lack of business.

Well it really sounds like you have made up your mind and are headed into chiro. I had the option to do that as well but decided not to. When i researched chiro and saw that it had soo many websites devoted to destroying it(which i have never seen for any profession before) and started talking to people, and wondered why a DC graduate was at my university doing his masters and working as a TA and heard that many DC students were dropping out.. well lets just say I decided PT was better option for me. Maybe since your dad has been a chiro for soo many years you will have a place to work and take over his practised which he has built up. I think the chiros who have been in business longer and have survived will have a better shot at surviving now. From what I heard chiros had it really good in the 80's and 90's but things seem to be changing now. Anyways good luck. I you wish all the best. Keep me posted on how things develop and what your final decision is.

Take Care!

awdc · Aug 3, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
It's a tax shelter. They load up the salaries of the administrators. The Chronicle of Higher Education found that Sid Williams DC at Life University was making 1,000,000 per year.

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/salary.html

This can happen because there is no real regulation of nonprofit colleges. I wonder what the salaries for CMCC are....??

C'mon we all know Sid Williams is an exception here. 'Nuff said.

PublicHealth · Aug 8, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
And come on now DCs being able to work in hospitals the same way PTs do will just never happen .. the MDs would have a field day.

Actually, DCs have been practicing in the VA hospitals for a few years now. A DC I contacted backchannel told me that their salaries range from $70-120K/year will full benefits. PTs make a paltry $40-60K/year in the VA system. Note: DCs are NOT primary care physicians in this model. Instead, they provide NMS care to complement primary medical care.

Last I heard, they were going to expand this program due to favorable feedback from patients and improved functional outcomes:

http://www.amerchiro.org/press_css.cfm?CID=1283

Some fodder:

http://www.todayschiropractic.com/archives/nov_dec_02/nd2002_feature_vets.html

http://www.aafp.org/fpr/20040100/10.html

A research agenda is also in place:

http://www1.va.gov/resDEV/funding/solicitations/docs/chiropractic_care.pdf

ONstudentPT · Aug 8, 2006

PublicHealth said:
Actually, DCs have been practicing in the VA hospitals for a few years now. A DC I contacted backchannel told me that their salaries range from $70-120K/year will full benefits. PTs make a paltry $40-60K/year in the VA system. Note: DCs are NOT primary care physicians in this model. Instead, they provide NMS care to complement primary medical care.

Last I heard, they were going to expand this program due to favorable feedback from patients and improved functional outcomes:

http://www.amerchiro.org/press_css.cfm?CID=1283

Some fodder:

http://www.todayschiropractic.com/archives/nov_dec_02/nd2002_feature_vets.html

http://www.aafp.org/fpr/20040100/10.html

A research agenda is also in place:

http://www1.va.gov/resDEV/funding/solicitations/docs/chiropractic_care.pdf

Maybe things are different in the states but I don't see DCs working at hospitals at the same compasity as PTs do. Here in Ontario even the Chiro colleges attempt to be affiliated with a University was blocked. I am always skeptical about chiros income when they are coming from chiro colleges or chiro sources the enrollment is down and they need to recruit students. Staff PTs salaries in hospitals in Ontario are between 55-75K a year and up to 90 if you are a supervisor. PTs who work in the private sector make around 40k part-time and around 80-90 full time and PTs who run and own thier own clinics usually make well over 100K a year.

PublicHealth · Aug 8, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Maybe things are different in the states but I don't see DCs working at hospitals at the same compasity as PTs do. Here in Ontario even the Chiro colleges attempt to be affiliated with a University was blocked. I am always skeptical about chiros income when they are coming from chiro colleges or chiro sources the enrollment is down and they need to recruit students. Staff PTs salaries in hospitals in Ontario are between 55-75K a year and up to 90 if you are a supervisor. PTs who work in the private sector make around 40k part-time and around 80-90 full time and PTs who run and own thier own clinics usually make well over 100K a year.

From salaryexpert.com:

The Chiropractor working in Ontario - Provincewide, Ontario now earns an average annual salary of 98,151. Half of those in this position would earn between 76,548 and 134,487 (the 17th and 67th percentiles). These numbers are derived from area-specific government survey data.

(Note: These are conservative government estimates. For competitive salary survey data based on consensus analyses of thousands of private and public salary surveys, see ERI's Salary Assessor® software.)

When benefits and bonuses are added to this salary, the average total compensation for this position would be 105,391. See the graph and table below to learn how the cost of living in this location affects the actual value of this salary.

More detailed information on salary, benefits, and cost-of-living is available below.
Estimates as of 08-Aug-2006. Currency in Canada Dollars.

-----------------------------

The Physical Therapist working in Ontario - Provincewide, Ontario now earns an average annual salary of 83,559. Half of those in this position would earn between 59,436 and 99,152 (the 17th and 67th percentiles). These numbers are derived from area-specific government survey data.

(Note: These are conservative government estimates. For competitive salary survey data based on consensus analyses of thousands of private and public salary surveys, see ERI's Salary Assessor® software.)

When benefits and bonuses are added to this salary, the average total compensation for this position would be 96,088. See the graph and table below to learn how the cost of living in this location affects the actual value of this salary.

More detailed information on salary, benefits, and cost-of-living is available below.
Estimates as of 08-Aug-2006. Currency in Canada Dollars.

ONstudentPT · Aug 8, 2006

PublicHealth said:
From salaryexpert.com:

The Chiropractor working in Ontario - Provincewide, Ontario now earns an average annual salary of 98,151. Half of those in this position would earn between 76,548 and 134,487 (the 17th and 67th percentiles). These numbers are derived from area-specific government survey data.

(Note: These are conservative government estimates. For competitive salary survey data based on consensus analyses of thousands of private and public salary surveys, see ERI's Salary Assessor® software.)

When benefits and bonuses are added to this salary, the average total compensation for this position would be 105,391. See the graph and table below to learn how the cost of living in this location affects the actual value of this salary.

More detailed information on salary, benefits, and cost-of-living is available below.
Estimates as of 08-Aug-2006. Currency in Canada Dollars.

-----------------------------

The Physical Therapist working in Ontario - Provincewide, Ontario now earns an average annual salary of 83,559. Half of those in this position would earn between 59,436 and 99,152 (the 17th and 67th percentiles). These numbers are derived from area-specific government survey data.

(Note: These are conservative government estimates. For competitive salary survey data based on consensus analyses of thousands of private and public salary surveys, see ERI's Salary Assessor® software.)

When benefits and bonuses are added to this salary, the average total compensation for this position would be 96,088. See the graph and table below to learn how the cost of living in this location affects the actual value of this salary.

More detailed information on salary, benefits, and cost-of-living is available below.
Estimates as of 08-Aug-2006. Currency in Canada Dollars.

From those numbers it seems like chiropractor and physiotherapy incomes are similar but the numbers for physio might be influenced by the lower hospital salaries.There are many diverse job opportunities for physiotherapists but for chiros it seems like running your own clinic would be the main option so there is no safety. Maybe chiropractors who have survived and have been in business for a long time could make over 90k but I dont understand how a new graduate opening a chiro clinic could survive so easily with soo much competition. It seems that there is a chiro clinic on every corner. I know there are twice as many chiro clinics than physio clinics in most areas here in Ontario and on average physio seems to have a better working relationship with MDs and other refferal sources without the stigma. Seems like it would be tough to survive as a new chiro graduate but then again I am sure it would be tough for new physio clinic at the start too. It just seems like a way tougher situation for chiro.

wayttk · Aug 9, 2006

OnStudent-
Students are required to do a lot of memorization. You do that very well. However, you have some very serious work to do on your critical thinking skills. Your regurgitation on DC "facts" 🙄 are from seriously flawed sources. You jeopordize your credibility when you make preposteous assertions from non-credible, invalid, sources. The first bit of advice: don't believe everything you read on the internet. Secondly, you are still a student..................listen more, talk less. You don't know what you don't know.

Contrary to the propaganda you have been suckered into believing, here are a few (genuine)facts(I've chosen a few Canadian specific examples):

***http://www.hospitaldc.com/

According to the Job Analysis of Chiropractic, a project report, survey analysis, and summary of the practice of chiropractic within the United States, published by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners in January 2005, 6% of chiropractors in the United States have some type of hospital privileges. This is an increase from 4.9% in 1991 and 5.2% in 1998.

***Congratulations to Joseph D. Salamone, DC, DAAPM, FRCCM and Daniel T. West, DC, FRCCM for being appointed as fellows to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons and the American Council for Board Certification. These two highly distinguished medical and educational organizations helped create the first specialty chiropractic board certification program for manipulation under anesthesia. The Royal College of Surgeons is one of the oldest and most prestigious medical institutions in the world. It was founded in 1654 in England, and there are now colleges in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Canada, and Thailand

***2003
CMCC faculty become chiropractors-on-staff at St. Michaels hospital

***St. John's Rehab Hospital is the first fully accredited hospital to offer outpatient chiropractic services in North Toronto and York Region. The clinic is in partnership with the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College and is staffed by a clinician and interns of the College. Chiropractic services are offered to patients and staff of the hospital and members of the surrounding community.

***Dr David Leprich graduated from the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College in 1977 and commenced practice in St. Catharines in 1978, ... is a chiropractic disability consultant to the St. Catharines General Hospital and the Medical Assessment Center of Ontario.

***A hospital study involving two hospital orthopedic wards in the Chicago area compared their results, one using Chiropractic care and the other only conventional Medical services. The hospital using Chiropractic care was sending patients home seven to nine days sooner! The study is a matter of public record in the Northern Illinois Federal Court case that Chiropractic had against the AMA as elated by Per Freitag, MD, PhD, professor and leading Chicago area orthopedist.

Per Freitag, MD,PhD, US Federal Court Testimony, Chicago, IL., May, 1987. Comparing JFK Hospital with Lutheran General Hospital, which does not use Chiropractic.

ONstudentPT · Aug 9, 2006

wayttk said:
OnStudent-
Students are required to do a lot of memorization. You do that very well. However, you have some very serious work to do on your critical thinking skills. Your regurgitation on DC "facts" 🙄 are from seriously flawed sources. You jeopordize your credibility when you make preposteous assertions from non-credible, invalid, sources. The first bit of advice: don't believe everything you read on the internet. Secondly, you are still a student..................listen more, talk less. You don't know what you don't know.

Contrary to the propaganda you have been suckered into believing, here are a few (genuine)facts(I've chosen a few Canadian specific examples):

***http://www.hospitaldc.com/

According to the Job Analysis of Chiropractic, a project report, survey analysis, and summary of the practice of chiropractic within the United States, published by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners in January 2005, 6% of chiropractors in the United States have some type of hospital privileges. This is an increase from 4.9% in 1991 and 5.2% in 1998.

***Congratulations to Joseph D. Salamone, DC, DAAPM, FRCCM and Daniel T. West, DC, FRCCM for being appointed as fellows to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons and the American Council for Board Certification. These two highly distinguished medical and educational organizations helped create the first specialty chiropractic board certification program for manipulation under anesthesia. The Royal College of Surgeons is one of the oldest and most prestigious medical institutions in the world. It was founded in 1654 in England, and there are now colleges in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Canada, and Thailand

***2003
CMCC faculty become chiropractors-on-staff at St. Michaels hospital

***St. John's Rehab Hospital is the first fully accredited hospital to offer outpatient chiropractic services in North Toronto and York Region. The clinic is in partnership with the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College and is staffed by a clinician and interns of the College. Chiropractic services are offered to patients and staff of the hospital and members of the surrounding community.

***Dr David Leprich graduated from the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College in 1977 and commenced practice in St. Catharines in 1978, ... is a chiropractic disability consultant to the St. Catharines General Hospital and the Medical Assessment Center of Ontario.

***A hospital study involving two hospital orthopedic wards in the Chicago area compared their results, one using Chiropractic care and the other only conventional Medical services. The hospital using Chiropractic care was sending patients home seven to nine days sooner! The study is a matter of public record in the Northern Illinois Federal Court case that Chiropractic had against the AMA as elated by Per Freitag, MD, PhD, professor and leading Chicago area orthopedist.

Per Freitag, MD,PhD, US Federal Court Testimony, Chicago, IL., May, 1987. Comparing JFK Hospital with Lutheran General Hospital, which does not use Chiropractic.

wayttk,

How would you know what I memorize and how well I do it and again how would you know how good my critical thinking skills are?? I am not sure where you are getting at with that...but maybe you shouldnt jump to such conclusions so quickly cause it could jepordize YOUR credibility.

The facts I stated are genuine facts. Which facts did you think I stated werent genuine?

I dont know what sources your are talking about but it seems like YOU are trying to sell the propaganda here. Outpatient chiropractis is hardly the same as PTs working in hospitals soo... I am not sure what point you were trying to prove with those references.

I gave my opinon to a student about chiropractics and was curious to what the person thought about it. Thats all. No big deal to me. I am not going into chiro so it makes no difference to me. I was just curious about the persons thougths on things that I have heard about chiro and thought it made for an interesting debate.

jesse14 · Aug 9, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
wayttk,

How would you know what I memorize and how well I do it and again how would you know how good my critical thinking skills are?? I am not sure where you are getting at with that...but maybe you shouldnt jump to such conclusions so quickly cause it could jepordize YOUR credibility.

The facts I stated are genuine facts. Which facts did you think I stated werent genuine?

I dont know what sources your are talking about but it seems like YOU are trying to sell the propaganda here. Outpatient chiropractis is hardly the same as PTs working in hospitals soo... I am not sure what point you were trying to prove with those references.

I gave my opinon to a student about chiropractics and was curious to what the person thought about it. Thats all. No big deal to me. I am not going into chiro so it makes no difference to me. I was just curious about the persons thougths on things that I have heard about chiro and thought it made for an interesting debate.

Hey ONstudentPT,

I think what wayttk was trying to get at is the fact that you base some of your chiro opinions on such web sites as quackwatch etc. These sites, although seem very credable, actually have very little credability to them. Mr. Barret, the owner of that site, failed his medical boards and there are a host of law suits against him for is inappropriate comments towards DC's DO's and DDs's. If you'd like, i can post internet sites that prove this. Also, no one here is trying to "one up you" with regards to chiro over physio. I, unlike you, respect BOTh professions and don't need to anaylize how they match up in every way, shape, or form.

Waytkk is trying to convey to you the same point that i am. YOu are just not, or refusing to understand it. The point we're tryng to make is that chiropractic is growing. DC's are slowly being incorporated into more and more main stream health practices. Why does that bother you so much? I UNDERSTAND that Pts work in hospitals in in patient settings. This is a needed role but I don't see how that makes Pt's better than DC's though... you'll have to explain that one to me.

Lastly, i have to admit that your credability has kind of been tarnashed by your constant alegations that have been proven incorrect. For instance, you said (in more or less words)that DC's can't make a living these days. So another individual posted salary figures from a NON chriopractic source for both PT's and DC's. These figures show that DC's all over ontario make more then their PT counterparts. And then you go on to backpeddle by saying how NEW graduates won't make as much.. bla bla bla. Stick to your convictions my friend.

Look, it may seem like i have something against you. This is NOT the case at all. Who knows, we might even run into one another some day down the road considering we're about the same age (i'm 21). Also, i think being a PT is a great career choice and i wish you all the best. I just feel chiropractic has more to offer a patient, but that's just my opinion. I wish you the best in all that you do!

Talk to you later.

ONstudentPT · Aug 10, 2006

I think what wayttk was trying to get at is the fact that you base some of your chiro opinions on such web sites as quackwatch etc. These sites, although seem very credable, actually have very little credability to them. Mr. Barret, the owner of that site, failed his medical boards and there are a host of law suits against him for is inappropriate comments towards DC's DO's and DDs's. If you'd like, i can post internet sites that prove this.

Wow this blows me away! When have I ever reffered to any site called quakwatch and who is Mr. Barret?? Are you talking about the chirobase website?... ya I got that off the internet.. cause I was curious about the salaries of the DCs running the chiro Colleges....are you saying that that salary is false? Where are you getting this from and why are you putting words in my mouth?

Also, no one here is trying to "one up you" with regards to chiro over physio. I, unlike you, respect BOTh professions and don't need to anaylize how they match up in every way, shape, or form.

My point was that they were very different professions. More science will equal more respect.

Waytkk is trying to convey to you the same point that i am. YOu are just not, or refusing to understand it. The point we're tryng to make is that chiropractic is growing. DC's are slowly being incorporated into more and more main stream health practices. Why does that bother you so much?

It doesnt bother me.. if its actually true. My point was that DCs dont work in pateint settings while PTs do .. two very different things arent they?

I UNDERSTAND that Pts work in hospitals in in patient settings. This is a needed role but I don't see how that makes Pt's better than DC's though... you'll have to explain that one to me.

I never said that that factor was what made PTs better than DCs its just an option that PTs have and DCs dont... again putting words in my mouth.

Lastly, i have to admit that your credability has kind of been tarnashed by your constant alegations that have been proven incorrect. For instance, you said (in more or less words)that DC's can't make a living these days.

I dont think my comments have been proved incorrect at all. My friend who is in chiro school right now is the one who told me this so I honestly wasnt just making it up. So what else have I been proven incorrect about? Isnt the chiropractic profession more competitive field to get into? Isnt its more competitive to get into a PT school than a Chiro college and why would all those students choose PT if they could have gotten into so chiro easily and if its soo great? Isnt there a bad stigma associated with chiropractics? Isnt there numerous websites trying to destroy chiro whether they are credible or not why isnt there websites like that about PT or any other profession? Can you answer these questions? Have I been proven wrong about these issues?

So another individual posted salary figures from a NON chriopractic source for both PT's and DC's. These figures show that DC's all over ontario make more then their PT counterparts. And then you go on to backpeddle by saying how NEW graduates won't make as much.. bla bla bla. Stick to your convictions my friend.

From my memory it seemed like the numbers were actually pretty similar for both chiro and PT on the website and those chiro salaries didnt include the 50% of chiro graduates who failed. But salaryexpert.com is hardly the be all and end all to salaries. There are soo many things to consider. First off all with the tax brackets here in Canada its hard to really know how much money someone who owns their own business is making. Also PTs salaries on average would be dragged down by the lower hospital salaries. A salary website cant factor in all these things. Am I not right about this?? And again the fact that new DC graduates are going to have a hard time making a living was brought to my attention by actual chiro students. So this is coming from the horses mouth! I know you may think I am just making this up but I swear to you I am not.

Look, it may seem like i have something against you. This is NOT the case at all. Who knows, we might even run into one another some day down the road considering we're about the same age (i'm 21). Also, i think being a PT is a great career choice and i wish you all the best. I just feel chiropractic has more to offer a patient, but that's just my opinion. I wish you the best in all that you do!

Well I think PT has more to offer 😀 and thats my opinion but I guess we will have to let the public and the healthcare industry decide.

On a side note.... jesse your tone seemed very aggressive and defensive in this post.... I wonder why?...did I hit a nerve or say somthing that really offended you...

Ok lets put the gloves aside for a moment and let me tell you my main thoughts about our debate.

I know most PTs and DCs just want to make a decent living and honestly help people get better along the way. I think this is fair thing to ask for after 6-8 years of post-secondary education, hard work with long nights of studying, and a huge investment of money. So what I wanted to try to convey to you after your very first post was that if i had this much invested .. I would be heart broken and devasted if after I was finished I realized that I couldnt make a decent living and what I have been taught may not be as helpful as I wished it would. Is this going to be the actual case for most chiro students... I dont know.. maybe, maybe not. If you have some kind of data and concrete information proving to me how bright the chiro future is please let me see it. But it does seem like a pretty big risk to take. There is a lot of negativity out there about chiro .. this you must be aware of. Maybe this doesnt concern you because you have your dads established business to take over but many graduates may not have this advantage. Either way I wish you good luck and hope you will be succesful and still be able to practise in an ethical manner.

ONstudentPT · Aug 10, 2006

Oh and if salaryexpert.com is such an expert on salaries then check out these numbers for physio:

Salary Report Summary
The Physiotherapy Supervisor working in Balance of Province Ontario, ON, Ontario now earns an average annual salary of 114,585. Half of those in this position would earn between 85,022 and 179,073 (the 17th and 67th percentiles). These numbers are derived from area-specific government survey data.

(Note: These are conservative government estimates. For competitive salary survey data based on consensus analyses of thousands of private and public salary surveys, see ERI's Salary Assessor® software.)

When benefits and bonuses are added to this salary, the average total compensation for this position would be 131,509. See the graph and table below to learn how the cost of living in this location affects the actual value of this salary.

More detailed information on salary, benefits, and cost-of-living is available below.
Estimates as of 10-Aug-2006. Currency in Canada Dollars.

wayttk · Aug 10, 2006

A small portion of OnStudent's naive, and erroneous posts asserts:

"Its true there are more PTs but you have to look at the job market. PTs have considerably more options. They can work in a hospital, A clinic,
as an independent contractor for a medical company or a school board, they work with a sports team even work with the olympic sports teams, they can own their own clinics, there are numerous sub specialities and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors). Chiropractors only real option is to open thier own clinic."
-------------------------------------

***Its true there are more PTs but you have to look at the job market. PTs have considerably more options.

Oh really? Lets see:

*** They can work in a hospital,--------So can DCs(See previous posts/links).

***A clinic,--------DUH

***as an independent contractor for a medical company --------Like as in a POPTS?

***or a school board,---------?????????

*** they work with a sports team***---------This is nothing new for DCs, Just about every sports team(major, minor, college, high school, men's, women's) has a staff DC-

***even work with the olympic sports teams,-----Whoopee!!! see: http://www.iaoco.org/

***they can own their own clinics,***-----Double WHOOPPEE!!! DCs have been doing this for 100 years and without referrals, or limitations that PTs have, plus DCs enjoy a wider practice scope(eg. ordering labs, x-rays) See:http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Search&template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=22369

***there are numerous sub specialities***-------again Whooppee 😴 -----See Some DC "sub specialities" here: Rehab-http://www.acrb.org/, Radiology-http://accr.org/, Orthopedics-http://accoweb.org/, veterinary-http://www.avcadoctors.com/, Sports injury, occuptational health, nutrition, neurology,http://72.14.203.104/custom?q=cache...e+nutrition&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&ie=UTF-8 And others.

***and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors).------They cannot survive without "doctor" referrals, not to mention DC referrals also.

*** Chiropractors only real option is to open thier own clinic.------Regurgitation of bogus propaganda already refuted above and in previous posts above.

Should we consider the above, an example of the astute critcal thinking skills you claim to possess?

ONstudentPT · Aug 10, 2006

wayttk said:
***and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors).------They cannot survive without "doctor" referrals, not to mention DC referrals also.

QUOTE]

Ok I am only going to address this comment because the other comparisons are just too riduculous to even waste my time commenting on when I have already made my point and said what I said.

The reason I am addressing this specifically cause its clear that you have no knowledge about what direct access means in Canada.

PTs dont need referrals from doctors in Canada or anyone else but most likely get more from the mainstream healthcare industry then chiros.

So what were my non genuine facts again?

And if you are soo well informed why dont you answer my questions?
Isnt the chiropractic profession more competitive field to get into? Isnt it more competitive to get into a PT school than a Chiro college and why would all those students choose PT if they could have gotten into chiro easily and if its soo great? Isnt there a bad stigma associated with chiropractics? Isnt there numerous websites trying to destroy chiro whether they are credible or not why isnt there websites like that about PT or any other profession? Can you answer these questions?

wayttk · Aug 10, 2006

Those are not questions. They are (egregious) declarations. A question mark at the end of a statment does not make it a question?

PublicHealth · Aug 10, 2006

U.S. Feds are also funding clinical trials for chiropractic: http://clinicaltrials.gov/search/te...practic+therapy)+[TREATMENT]?recruiting=false

...and a bunch of other interventions that are commonly in the arsenal of practicing DCs: http://nccam.nih.gov/clinicaltrials/alltrials.htm

Clinical trial data are emerging:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16517383&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16461169&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16461168&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Interesting how studies NOT conducted in the US generally support the efficacy of chiropractic.

jesse14 · Aug 10, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
wayttk said:

***and also they have a much better working relationship with the rest of healthcare industry (ie getting referals from doctors).------They cannot survive without "doctor" referrals, not to mention DC referrals also.

QUOTE]

Ok I am only going to address this comment because the other comparisons are just too riduculous to even waste my time commenting on when I have already made my point and said what I said.

The reason I am addressing this specifically cause its clear that you have no knowledge about what direct access means in Canada.

PTs dont need referrals from doctors in Canada or anyone else but most likely get more from the mainstream healthcare industry then chiros.

So what were my non genuine facts again?

And if you are soo well informed why dont you answer my questions?
Isnt the chiropractic profession more competitive field to get into? Isnt it more competitive to get into a PT school than a Chiro college and why would all those students choose PT if they could have gotten into chiro easily and if its soo great? Isnt there a bad stigma associated with chiropractics? Isnt there numerous websites trying to destroy chiro whether they are credible or not why isnt there websites like that about PT or any other profession? Can you answer these questions?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the previous post on my part. I thought u mentioned quackwatch when you saied you saw sites that were against DC's.

Here is something i was debating on whether i should say or not do to the subjectivity of the information. As i said a few posts before, i am still toying with the notion of applying to PT school. I feel i stand a chance of getting in due to my 3.67 GPA, volunteer experience, and letters of rec. My father, one of the most rational DC's you'll ever meet in your life, has told me not tp get into PT. He says this because he deals with them im a clinical setting almost daily and feels they have to deal with a lot of B.S that chiros don't. Now, he did not go into specifics (which i wish he did) but i'll be sure to get his take. My father wants whats best for me and if he felt going into PT was a great option he'd tell me to go for it. Over all, i trust his opinion whole hearedly. He's ethical and restricts his practice to NMSK problems. So, i guess under ONstudentPT's assertions, he is a glorified pt? 😎 Also, i go to meetings with the North York Chiro Society and there are over 20 DC's in this society and 5 of which are brand new grads. All of them are doing very well. Not one told me of any monentary issues they are facing and they would have NO reason to lie to me. I realize this is all heresay (sp?) but it's the truth. Just as your chiro student friend told of his fears, i am telling you about my individual experiences.

You "asked" a few questions about chiro at the end of your post. All i can say is this. PT is much more popular that chiropractic amongsts students in KIn, Bio, Health Sci etc. Mac, queens, western and even UBC come to York to do presentations every year for the kin students. There is no such advertising by chiro school except on career day which is once a year. So, more applications=higher competition for acceptance. I wish chiro schools had higher standards (move the cut off from a 2.5 to a 3.0). But this is not feasable due to the sad idea that if this would happen, some chiro schools wouldn't be able to fill all of their seats. Look i am NOT blind to the short comings of chiropractic as you percieve me to be. I am well versed in the problems around the profession. But, with that said, i STILL feel i can be an ethical Doctor who makes thelivs of patients better and pain fee. Believe me, i wil NOT me a quack who tells patienst to come back every day for life lol. If that means making less money than so be it.

I know there was more you wanted addressed and i'd be happy to do so in another post. I have to head out to the gym now.

take care

ONstudentPT · Aug 10, 2006

jesse14 said:
ONstudentPT said:

Sorry about the previous post on my part. I thought u mentioned quackwatch when you saied you saw sites that were against DC's.

Here is something i was debating on whether i should say or not do to the subjectivity of the information. As i said a few posts before, i am still toying with the notion of applying to PT school. I feel i stand a chance of getting in due to my 3.67 GPA, volunteer experience, and letters of rec. My father, one of the most rational DC's you'll ever meet in your life, has told me not tp get into PT. He says this because he deals with them im a clinical setting almost daily and feels they have to deal with a lot of B.S that chiros don't. Now, he did not go into specifics (which i wish he did) but i'll be sure to get his take. My father wants whats best for me and if he felt going into PT was a great option he'd tell me to go for it. Over all, i trust his opinion whole hearedly. He's ethical and restricts his practice to NMSK problems. So, i guess under ONstudentPT's assertions, he is a glorified pt? 😎 Also, i go to meetings with the North York Chiro Society and there are over 20 DC's in this society and 5 of which are brand new grads. All of them are doing very well. Not one told me of any monentary issues they are facing and they would have NO reason to lie to me. I realize this is all heresay (sp?) but it's the truth. Just as your chiro student friend told of his fears, i am telling you about my individual experiences.

You "asked" a few questions about chiro at the end of your post. All i can say is this. PT is much more popular that chiropractic amongsts students in KIn, Bio, Health Sci etc. Mac, queens, western and even UBC come to York to do presentations every year for the kin students. There is no such advertising by chiro school except on career day which is once a year. So, more applications=higher competition for acceptance. I wish chiro schools had higher standards (move the cut off from a 2.5 to a 3.0). But this is not feasable due to the sad idea that if this would happen, some chiro schools wouldn't be able to fill all of their seats. Look i am NOT blind to the short comings of chiropractic as you percieve me to be. I am well versed in the problems around the profession. But, with that said, i STILL feel i can be an ethical Doctor who makes thelivs of patients better and pain fee. Believe me, i wil NOT me a quack who tells patienst to come back every day for life lol. If that means making less money than so be it.

I know there was more you wanted addressed and i'd be happy to do so in another post. I have to head out to the gym now.

take care

Click to expand...

Wayttk,
They look like questions too me and I think all those questions are fair. If you could refute them then why wouldnt you?

Jesse,

First off please tell what BS do PTs have to deal with which chiros dont I am honestly very curious.

After you and others referred to all these internet sources I became curious and did some research to see how much info and websites there are devoted to chiro skepticism. I had already come across a few but what I found was mind blowing. I can not believe the amount of negativity there is about chiro on the internet no other profession has to deal with this.

But the interesting part is that while I was looking through the sites I came across some other posts you had made on other forums and threads.

http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum31/HTML/000414.html

Quote: Can i ask you a few question??
Where did you go to school and what was your major? May i ask what your GPA for acceptance was and do you find it to be very competitive to get into the CMCC?

http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum4/HTML/000009.html

quote:"Hey,
would any CMCC students know if they accept applicants with a GPA of around 3.1?? I know they say their minimum is 2.5 but I know they never accept applicants with that GPA. I have about a 72% avrg which I think is a 3.1 out of a 4.0 scale.
Any info would be great!
thank'a"

Now its clear you are not being truthfull. You told me you had a 3.67 GPA(i bolded that section in your last post) If you really had a cumulative GPA of 3.67 which evidently you dont because you told someone else you had a 3.1 GPA ...then why would you be worried about getting into chiro college you would get in for sure. With a 3.67 GPA not only would you have a good shot at getting into physio but you would have a chance of getting into med in some schools. I could almost be sure that you would at least get into queens physio. The other physio schools are a little more competitive mac being the most competitive with 60 students admitted out of almost 900 applicants. So something is not quite right here .. you are being inconsistent and not telling the truth.

http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum31/HTML/000414.html

quote : I want to practice as an ethical evidence based DC who doesn't scare patients or force them to see me, I only wantto treat actual problems and not fabricate "subluxations" to my patients. Is this possible or am i wasting my time going to the cmcc?"

Now what I dont understand is if your dad is a chiro with soo much experience and you have soo much knowledge about chiro why would you be asking these kinds of questions? It seems like you are uncertain about the chiro future.

Quote: You said you see about 60 patients a week.To me that's pretty good because say each visit costs the patient $30 (my dad charges $32 i think) that amounts to $1800 a week in income which translates into $93600 a year.

If your dad is a chiro how could you not know what he charges and understand that that figure would be a gross income only?

Quote: You can go to 5 different chiros and they will give you 5 different problems you need treatment for. I know this because im done my own little experements where i went to 4 different Dc's and ALL 4 told me i had a different problem and ALL 4 told me i needed to start off seeing them 3 times a week for 4 weeks because i needed to "get used to the adjustment" (mean while my dad is a DC who adjusts me weekly).

Why in the world would you get adjusted weekly if you want to practice as an ethical chiro and adjust only when its needed. Again you are being inconsistent.

Qoute : You have ALL this experience yet you're still unsure what the profession has to offer?
--Yes, your correct. I'm still unsure because one day i'll talk to a DC who is loving what they are doing and the next, i'll read a story like the one i posted initaly.

More uncertainty about the chiro future? This doenst make sense if your dad is a chiro and you have such great knowledge about the chiro profession.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=303009
Quote: think a lot of people should give chiros a break. It's no wonder they have higher than average student loan defalt rates. ... they have to pass chiro college, learn how to run a business, and get a patient base all alone. That can't be easy. I'm not even sure why i'm writing this lol but i felt the need to. I guess im just venting on the stress i'm going to endure in the coming years. But i'm ready for it .......... i think

It really does seem you are uncertain about the future of chiro and your comments just dont seem to add up.

So this is what I think. I think You have been throwing out comments (ie my dads chiro and he thinks its great job) to hopefully get reactions that will help you rationalize your decision about going into chiro and trying to use it as a strategy to see what others will say. My question to you . Have you been getting the results you want and have others comments helped you rationalize your decision to go into chiro? Remember we can rationalize almost anything in our minds if we really want to.

Jesse by being misleading and dishonest you yourself have provided the perfect example of the misguided ways of chiropractic students and graduates

Although I can understand that you just want to make a living and be respected just like anyone else .. on that front I feel for you..but can you accomplish this with chiro...?

It seems like you are facing a huge question in your life and you really need to think things through.

My advice to you GO WITH YOUR GUT FEELING.. honestly 9 out of 10 times its right. And dont rely on just the internet for information get out there in the real world and talk to chiros who are in business, who have left the business, talk to others in the healthcare industry like PTs MDs and see what their opinions are. And most importantly go with your gut feeling! Oh and one more thing .. if you havent finished your undergrad .. atleast do that much before going into chiro.. so you have a little bit of something to fall back on.

THere are other options out there.. other than just chiro.. really there honesly are and IF you are looking for the doctor title ..why not get a PhD but in my opinion there are more important things then just the title of Dr. otherwise I would have went into dentistry(no offense to dentists) my GPA was high enough to get into that but just wasnt my thing.

I dont know what the future holds for DCs but there is no doubt that there are some major concerns about the profession and it seems like an awfully huge risk to take with soo much invested.

Well this will prolly be my last post on this thread. I do not see any reason to continue this discussion anymore. Jesse I wish you luck with your future and try to look at what I said objectively because I have no reason to try to mislead you.

Take care

611 · Aug 11, 2006

jesse14 said:
ONstudentPT said:

Sorry about the previous post on my part. I thought u mentioned quackwatch when you saied you saw sites that were against DC's.

Here is something i was debating on whether i should say or not do to the subjectivity of the information. As i said a few posts before, i am still toying with the notion of applying to PT school. I feel i stand a chance of getting in due to my 3.67 GPA, volunteer experience, and letters of rec. My father, one of the most rational DC's you'll ever meet in your life, has told me not tp get into PT. He says this because he deals with them im a clinical setting almost daily and feels they have to deal with a lot of B.S that chiros don't. Now, he did not go into specifics (which i wish he did) but i'll be sure to get his take. My father wants whats best for me and if he felt going into PT was a great option he'd tell me to go for it. Over all, i trust his opinion whole hearedly. He's ethical and restricts his practice to NMSK problems. So, i guess under ONstudentPT's assertions, he is a glorified pt? 😎 Also, i go to meetings with the North York Chiro Society and there are over 20 DC's in this society and 5 of which are brand new grads. All of them are doing very well. Not one told me of any monentary issues they are facing and they would have NO reason to lie to me. I realize this is all heresay (sp?) but it's the truth. Just as your chiro student friend told of his fears, i am telling you about my individual experiences.

You "asked" a few questions about chiro at the end of your post. All i can say is this. PT is much more popular that chiropractic amongsts students in KIn, Bio, Health Sci etc. Mac, queens, western and even UBC come to York to do presentations every year for the kin students. There is no such advertising by chiro school except on career day which is once a year. So, more applications=higher competition for acceptance. I wish chiro schools had higher standards (move the cut off from a 2.5 to a 3.0). But this is not feasable due to the sad idea that if this would happen, some chiro schools wouldn't be able to fill all of their seats. Look i am NOT blind to the short comings of chiropractic as you percieve me to be. I am well versed in the problems around the profession. But, with that said, i STILL feel i can be an ethical Doctor who makes thelivs of patients better and pain fee. Believe me, i wil NOT me a quack who tells patienst to come back every day for life lol. If that means making less money than so be it.

I know there was more you wanted addressed and i'd be happy to do so in another post. I have to head out to the gym now.

take care

Click to expand...

I think when one talks about a GPA, you must take into account the undergrad. institution that the applicant attended. Harvard accepts only the very top students, yet someone in that group has to have a C average once they get to Harvard. The rigor of the courses must be taken into account. So an absolute cut off is not a good idea. You just cannot compare organic chemistry at Harvard to organic chemistry at a community or junior college. It's like comparing batting averages in the major leagues to the minor leagues. You may bat 300 in the minors but only 250 when you get sent up to the majors because of the level of competition.

ONstudentPT · Aug 21, 2006

Hey Jesse ... no more comments..?

jesse14 · Aug 21, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hey Jesse ... no more comments..?

I actually wrote a reply but since you said you were done with the thread i figured i'd only be writing to myself.

I did write and save a very long reply which is a problem. I tried posting it on here but SDN wouldn't let be b/c it exceeded the max characters i could use by almost 2000. I then tried to send it to you privatley with the same result. So, if you like to read my reply please private msg me your email address and i can send it to you that way.

You are free to post what ever of it you want on this thread so others can see and comment. I have nothing to hide.

Take care

ONstudentPT · Aug 21, 2006

jesse14 said:
I actually wrote a reply but since you said you were done with the thread i figured i'd only be writing to myself.

I did write and save a very long reply which is a problem. I tried posting it on here but SDN wouldn't let be b/c it exceeded the max characters i could use by almost 2000. I then tried to send it to you privatley with the same result. So, if you like to read my reply please private msg me your email address and i can send it to you that way.

You are free to post what ever of it you want on this thread so others can see and comment. I have nothing to hide.

Take care

Hey jesse,

Why dont you just post your reply to me in two seperate posts on here. If you have nothing to hide and can explain to me why you were untruthful I would be interested in reading it. I did write that there was no more reason to continue this discussion because I had proved in my prior post that you were being misleading an untruthful and anything you would say would be very questionable but I was still wondering if you would reply or not. Maybe you can be honest now.. I dont know who you are adn you dont know who I am so there really is no point for lies.

Marleychiro · Aug 21, 2006

This is like a gang fight in a back alley. 5 chiros against 1 PT.

I went into chiro with high expectations and what I found was a bunch of cults, scams, insurance fraud, false advertising and I could go on and on. The chiropractic schools actually perpetuate this. For example Life Chiropractic University recently opened the doors to a bunch of consulting firms explaining how to have a waiting list practice. Now that does not seem right does it?

Let me just explain some of the quackery in my hometown in Wisconsin. We have the Gonstead Chiro, activator chiro, the Body By God TTWAC chiro, the Master's Circle Chiro, the Chiropractic Biophysics chiro, the chiropractic neurologist, the laser chiro, NUCCA chiro and the Thompson drop table chiro. That is all I can think of right now but I'm sure there are more. By the way, that is a list of consulting firms and techniques.

Please if you ever need a place to discuss chiropractic with people who are skeptical of chiropractic please check out

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/

You have gotten yourself into a jam here with a gang of chiros who will never listen to common sense. That is the way they work. They attack anyone with a different viewpoint than their own. It is part of the cult attitude that chiros need to have.

Good luck with your career as a PT!

Marleychiro · Aug 21, 2006

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7535147756737545918&q=chiropractic

Watch this video from an anesthesiologist named Bill Kinsinger on chiropractic quakery

ONstudentPT · Aug 21, 2006

Hey marley,

Ya I understand what you are saying about the attitudes but none of the pro chiros on this thread have been able to refute anything i have written infact they are contridicting themselves and tarnishing thier own credibilities by being misleading and untruthful.

jesse14 · Aug 22, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hey jesse,

Why dont you just post your reply to me in two seperate posts on here. If you have nothing to hide and can explain to me why you were untruthful I would be interested in reading it. I did write that there was no more reason to continue this discussion because I had proved in my prior post that you were being misleading an untruthful and anything you would say would be very questionable but I was still wondering if you would reply or not. Maybe you can be honest now.. I dont know who you are adn you dont know who I am so there really is no point for lies.

QUOTE=ONstudentPT]

jesse14 said:
Jesse,

After you and others referred to all these internet sources I became curious and did some research to see how much info and websites there are devoted to chiro skepticism. I had already come across a few but what I found was mind blowing. I can not believe the amount of negativity there is about chiro on the internet no other profession has to deal with this.

Really, i beg to differ:

http://www.dentalwatch.org

http://www.acuwatch.org

http://www.mentalhealthwatch.org

http://www.naturowatch.org

But the interesting part is that while I was looking through the sites I came across some other posts you had made on other forums and threads.

Arn't you the little detective 🙂

http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum31/HTML/000414.html
Quote: Can i ask you a few question??
If you really have a cumulative GPA of 3.67 why would you be worried about getting into chiro college you would get in for sure. With a 3.67 GPA not only would you have a good shot at getting into physio but you would have a chance of getting into med in some schools. I could almost be sure that you would at least get into queens physio. The other physio schools are a little more competitive mac being the most competitive with 60 students admitted out of almost 900 applicants. So something is not quite right here .. you are being inconsistent and not making any sense.

I was worried because i know a lot of people who got rejected from the cmcc. I was not sure of their GPA ranges but i do know the cmcc is one of the more competitive schools to get into. Also, i kicked ass this year in school and raised my GPA from a 3.3 (which was the gpa i had when i wrote that). I really buckled down in my 3rd year and pulled off almost straight A's. I do thank you for your vote of confidence in saying i could get into Queens... how nice. But what's so inconsistent and what's not making sense? Me asking my about shots of getting in to the cmcc does not equate to me having a low GPA. But since that was your last post, i doubt i'll ever get to read your rational....

http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum31/HTML/000414.html

quote : I want to practice as an ethical evidence based DC who doesn't scare patients or force them to see me, I only wantto treat actual problems and not fabricate "subluxations" to my patients. Is this possible or am i wasting my time going to the cmcc?"

Now what I dont understand is if your dad is a chiro with soo much experience and you have soo much knowledge about chiro why would you be asking these kinds of questions? It seems like you are uncertain about the chiro future.

If you must know, i asked this exact question to see what other chiros would say. I wanted to know if they practice in the fashion i wish to. I'm not uncertain about how i will practice. I'm just testing the waters if you will. I don't see anything wrong with getting a sample population of chiros and seeing how they practice. By the way, here is my "idol" in terms of the chiropractor i want to be:
http://www.andersenchiro.com/Main.htm

Quote: You said you see about 60 patients a week.To me that's pretty good because say each visit costs the patient $30 (my dad charges $32 i think) that amounts to $1800 a week in income which translates into $93600 a year.

If your dad is a chiro how could you not know what he charges and understand that that figure would be a gross income only?
Am i his accountant? I should know how much he charges?? HAHA that's just plain dumb my friend... i don't ask my dad his gross income.
However, i get the sense you think Im making up the fact my dad is a DC. If so, here ya go:
http://findabusiness.yellowpages.ca.../M3J2G6/0/1/0000000000000930870028500007.html

That's my dad's office. Please, if you would like to ask more questions regarding my dad you can pm me for my # and i'll be more than happy to try and answer to the best of my ability. ( i really mean that).

Quote: You can go to 5 different chiros and they will give you 5 different problems you need treatment for. I know this because im done my own little experements where i went to 4 different Dc's and ALL 4 told me i had a different problem and ALL 4 told me i needed to start off seeing them 3 times a week for 4 weeks because i needed to "get used to the adjustment" (mean while my dad is a DC who adjusts me weekly).

Why in the world would you get adjusted weekly if you want to practice as an ethical chiro and adjust only when its needed. Again you are being inconsistent.

Simply because i CAN.. i NEVER said i needed to be adjusted so often and my dad never told me i should be. I had a bad accident and my low back was in pain and for about 6-8 weeks he adjusted me once a week. It felt great and really increased the ROM and helped break up adhesions around the vertebra. (notice how i never once said he "cured my subluxations")

Qoute : You have ALL this experience yet you're still unsure what the profession has to offer?
--Yes, youre correct. I'm still unsure because one day i'll talk to a DC who is loving what they are doing and the next, i'll read a story like the one i posted initially.

jesse14 · Aug 22, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hey jesse,

Why dont you just post your reply to me in two seperate posts on here. If you have nothing to hide and can explain to me why you were untruthful I would be interested in reading it. I did write that there was no more reason to continue this discussion because I had proved in my prior post that you were being misleading an untruthful and anything you would say would be very questionable but I was still wondering if you would reply or not. Maybe you can be honest now.. I dont know who you are adn you dont know who I am so there really is no point for lies.

It really does seem you are uncertain about the future of chiro and your comments just dont seem to add up.

I'm sorry for being worried about my future. If i was holding and MD acceptance letter than i'd still be worried. I was just day dreaming about the challenges that lay ahead of me and i wanted some feedback.. is that wrong? I wont sit here and tell you i know i'm going to be a success because i really can't predict the future. Can you? I mean, the chiro bashers do cause some stress but it my knowledge of the profession that still makes me want to be a DC. Think about it, if i had next to know knowledge of chiropractic and i read all of these sites that say bad things about it, do you really think i'd be advocating it the way i am? Please tell me how my comments don't add up... you say that but make no suggestions as to why you think that... other than posting my personal professional concerns. I find it hard to believe that you don't stress over your future. If you don't, i envy you.

On a side, i feel the ppl who fail in chiro do so because they go into it not worrying about the end result. I want to be prepared and organized so when i get out, i'm not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. I want a solid business plan and i want to make sure i can achieve my goals. This is what i feel some students lack... the foresight to see the future

So this is what I think. I think You have been throwing out comments (ie my dads chiro and he thinks its great job) to hopefully get reactions that will help you rationalize your decision about going into chiro and trying to use it as a strategy to see what others will say. My question to you . Have you been getting the results you want and have others comments helped you rationalize your decision to go into chiro? Remember we can rationalize almost anything in our minds if we really want to.

Wow, are you a part-time psychology student as well? I don't see how asking opinions of the profession on chiro forums and getting feedback from the fine ppl on this forum is me "throwing out comments". As far as me getting the comments i want.... i don't "want" any specific comments. I want ANY and ALL comments. Good or bad, big or small. I just want to learn as much from other people all over the world (that helps with this forum)as i can. But with that said, i feel there is some validity to your last sentence. I may be rationalizing some things in my head but then again.. i don't know if i am. I do have to sort some things out and i need to do it in a hurry. I'm just doing all i can to try and sort my head out.. it ain't easy at times.

Jesse it seems like you are facing a huge question in your life and it seems you have some serious doubts about chiro.

Huge questions : YES. Anyone starting out on their career has these questions to deal with

Chiro Doubts: Not so much, i believe in it 100% and it's great way to help people feel better. I've seen it time and time again..
If you were to say uncertainty, than i would agree with you. I'm uncertain about my future but i know me, and untill i am actually doing what ever it is i will be doing, i am never certain.

My advice to you GO WITH YOUR GUT FEELING.. honestly 9 out of 10 times its right. And dont rely on just the internet for information get out there in the real world and talk to chiros who are in business, who have left the business, talk to others in the healthcare industry like PTs MDs and see what their opinions are. And most importantly go with your gut feeling! Oh and one more thing .. if you havent finished your undergrad .. atleast do that much before going into chiro.. so you have a little bit of something to fall back on.

I honestly thank you for imparting that wisdom on me (that was NOT sarcastic at all). I'm trying to figure out what my gut feeling is my friend. Like i said a little while ago, it ain't always so easy.
And i'm heading into my 4th and last year in Kinesiology and Health Science so I will have my degree. Not to worry, i know a degree is essential in this day and age.

THere are other options out there.. other than just chiro.. really there honesly are and IF you are looking for the doctor title ..why not get a PhD but in my opinion there are more important things then just the title of Dr. otherwise I would have went into dentistry(no offense to dentists) my GPA was high enough to get into that but just wasnt my thing.

I know of other options. I was thinking about chiropody (podiatry) for a while and that's still not completely ruled out. I have no desire to be a dentist so thats not even a thought. And like I said, PT is still a viable career option. I guess applying never hurt..

I dont know what the future holds for DCs but there is no doubt that there are some major concerns about the profession and it seems like an awfully huge risk to take with soo much invested.

I agree. $80 grand in tution is no walk in the park...

Well this will prolly be my last post on this thread. I do not see any reason to continue this discussion anymore. Jesse I wish you luck with your future and try to look at what I said objectively because I have no reason to try to mislead you.

I thank you for these talks and believe it or not, you have given me somethings to think about. I respect your candor and professionalism in these talks. I think you will make a fine PT.

Take care[/QUOTE]

Same to you.

jesse14 · Aug 22, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
Hey jesse,

Why dont you just post your reply to me in two seperate posts on here. If you have nothing to hide and can explain to me why you were untruthful I would be interested in reading it. I did write that there was no more reason to continue this discussion because I had proved in my prior post that you were being misleading an untruthful and anything you would say would be very questionable but I was still wondering if you would reply or not. Maybe you can be honest now.. I dont know who you are adn you dont know who I am so there really is no point for lies.

HUUU?!?!?! Please tell me how i was being misleading and untrufull. Just cause you accuse me of lying doesn't make it so. I want you to show specifically how i've been mesleading. I have not once bashed PT's or made chiropractic to be something amazing. I don't get you...

jesse14 · Aug 22, 2006

Marleychiro said:
This is like a gang fight in a back alley. 5 chiros against 1 PT.

I went into chiro with high expectations and what I found was a bunch of cults, scams, insurance fraud, false advertising and I could go on and on. The chiropractic schools actually perpetuate this. For example Life Chiropractic University recently opened the doors to a bunch of consulting firms explaining how to have a waiting list practice. Now that does not seem right does it?

Let me just explain some of the quackery in my hometown in Wisconsin. We have the Gonstead Chiro, activator chiro, the Body By God TTWAC chiro, the Master's Circle Chiro, the Chiropractic Biophysics chiro, the chiropractic neurologist, the laser chiro, NUCCA chiro and the Thompson drop table chiro. That is all I can think of right now but I'm sure there are more. By the way, that is a list of consulting firms and techniques.

Please if you ever need a place to discuss chiropractic with people who are skeptical of chiropractic please check out

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/

You have gotten yourself into a jam here with a gang of chiros who will never listen to common sense. That is the way they work. They attack anyone with a different viewpoint than their own. It is part of the cult attitude that chiros need to have.

Good luck with your career as a PT!

Explain to me how i'm not listening to common sence? I've taken everything OnstudentPT has said and respected it. I even agreed with his assertions on the quackery within the profession. I have been nothing but civil in these discussions and you say i have a "cult attitude". YOu couldn't be further from the truth. If you read my posts on chiro web (as ONstudentPT did) you will see that i am a huge advocate for EB chiropractic and research. Using LIFE college as an example is just crazy though... didn't they lose accreditation a little ways back? I wish that school would just burn to the ground due to the negative press it recieves and the shaidy teaching methods they subscribe to.

But let me ask.. are you a chiropractor? If so, do you practice? Please enlighten me on your biography so i can better understand your perspective.

I encourage more PT's to join in this discusion. If they are rational and respectful than anything they have to say will be heard and responded to in turn. There is no bullying going on here. You once again have my personality mistaken with one of those quack DC's in your town. I am not like that sir.

ONstudentPT · Aug 22, 2006

jesse14 said:
HUUU?!?!?! Please tell me how i was being misleading and untrufull. Just cause you accuse me of lying doesn't make it so. I want you to show specifically how i've been mesleading. I have not once bashed PT's or made chiropractic to be something amazing. I don't get you...

Hey jesse,

Ok before I write anything I just want to let you know that you seem like a very nice individual and have no intention of bashing you as a person.

I will explain to you what I find misleading and confusing about some of your posts. Can you please explain to me what is going on here because its hard to have a discussion with someone who you are not sure is being truthfull.

You said your GPA is 3.67. But in this post you say that your GPA is 3.1
--->http://www.chiroweb.com/ubb/students/Forum4/HTML/000009.html

Then you go on to say that your GPA was actually 3.3 when you wrote that and that you got straight A's in third year. Now even if you had a 4.0 GPA in your 3rd year (which is extremely difficult to pull off)but had only a 3.3 GPA for you first 2 years .. your GPA could not be a 3.67 .. the math just doesnt add up ... so what is the truth then.... are just confused about your GPAs or are you lying? Jesse the thing is that marks are very important cause they can open doors so its important to know where you stand.

Now the other thing I find confusing is this whole issue with your dad being a chiro.. maybe you can explain it to me a little better. If my dad was a chiro and owned his own chiro clinic and I was as interested about becoming a chiro as you seem to be I would know every aspect of his business and know exactly what his gross income, his net income, how many pateints he sees ect.. ect... Also if my dad was a chiro I wouldnt be worried about asking peoples thoughts about chiro on this forum because my dad would be able to give me any and all the information I would need to know especially conerning CMCC if he went there. And lastly if he owned such a successful chiro business and told me that the future was bright... I really wouldnt be worried about my future because I know once I graduated I could work with my dad and eventually take over his successful business.

Can you see from my perspective how that just doesnt make sense is this really your dad or just some chiro you know? Can you explain that to me?

Get back to me and let me know whats up.

Take Care

Marleychiro · Aug 22, 2006

Jessie,

You sound like a good natured guy. My suggestion to you would be get out while you can. The quackery is rampant throughout the chiro schools. I went to Logan Chiropractic in St. Louis and it was suppose to be a good school or so I thought. The school promoted a guy named Holleren and Grass who were two consultants. These consultants were to buy me an office and set me up. What it was, ended up being me doing quackery, insurance fraud and scams. Then I was suppose to pay them $300,000 with 4% interest. The schools kickback was a million dollar grant to build a new library. I had 5 friends who were involved in this scam.

I told you the story to prove Life University is not the only chiro school to promote these sorts of things. The profession is ruined because of consultant firms preaching to chiros about " If you can't get more new patients, see the patients you have more often"

Man, I tell you this because the profession is not what you think it is. Your father may be doing well but he started at a completly different time period. Tuition is probably 4 times what your father paid. Insurance companies don't pay much anymore and regular people don't want to spend their money on you.

Of course you can always use scare tactics by telling them they have major back problems. That usually gets people to pay out of pocket. This is in fact how many chiropractors are making money these days.

I'm sure some crazy chiro will tell me I'm a failure but that is how it is. I chose not to practice chiro because of all the quacks. I also see the chiro parking lots empty in my city. That can't be a good sign.

I'm telling you the chiro profession has lost it's backbone. Please before you do anything else look for a chiro job once. There arn't any! In the entire state of Wisconsin there are maybe 3-4 jobs. Meanwhile, there are at least 10-15 chiro practices up for sale. Look at Palmer.edu or Northwestern.edu or New York chiro school. I don't know the exact websites but if you find the schools web page you should be able to find the job postings.

I hope you listen to my advice. I am being completly honest with you and I wouldn't take the time to write all of this if I wasn't.

Do you really want to defend chiropractic for the rest of your life?

ProZackMI · Aug 22, 2006

You guys do realize that you're arguing with a 20-year-old kid, right? I mean, he's 20. PT vs. chiro. PT wins hands down. Case closed. End of story.

ONstudentPT · Aug 22, 2006

ProZackMI said:
You guys do realize that you're arguing with a 20-year-old kid, right? I mean, he's 20. PT vs. chiro. PT wins hands down. Case closed. End of story.

This is true Prozack but it seems that in some sort of a way he is reaching out for advice and wanting others perspectives as he is trying make an important decision in his life. All I am doing is giving him my perspective whether he or others agree with it is irrelevent but it at least gives him a different perspective to think about.

ProZackMI · Aug 22, 2006

ONstudentPT said:
This is true Prozack but it seems that in some sort of a way he is reaching out for advice and wanting others perspectives as he is trying make an important decision in his life. All I am doing is giving him my perspective whether he or others agree with it is irrelevent but it at least gives him a different perspective to think about.

I've read your posts and you and Marley gave him some excellent advice. Marley spoke from his heart and from experience. Marley is an ex chiropractor in the US who has gone through a great deal as a result of his experience as a chiro.

Jesse14 is a very opinioned kid. He's 20. He's barely out of his teens. He may have "puffed" himself up a bit, but he's a kid. I don't think he meant any harm or tried to deceive anyone. He's just a very naieve kid who is trying desparately to rationalize and justify his potentially unwise career choice.

The fact is, while most chiros default on their loans, end up quacks, and do nothing but dupe their patients, there are some good ones out there and there some financially successful ones out there. There's always the exception to the rule. Jesse's youth clouds his judgment and his overconfidence is his own undoing. He assumes he will be the successful DC like daddy; however, given the current state of chiropractic affairs, he most likely will end up going back to school to get an ATC credential or end up teaching PE with his kin. degree.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet, from what I've seen, is that in the US, PTs are moving toward a DPT degree (Doctor of Physical Therapy), which is a 3 year post bachelor's professional degree. PTs are lobbying for enhanced scopes of practice in most states (e.g., direct access). Jesse could consider coming to the US for his PT education. For example, at Oakland University, here in Michigan, they have a DPT program.

www.oakland.edu

Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids also has a DPT program:
www.gvsu.edu

There are many DPT programs in NY state, Michigan, NJ, Penn, etc. Do a Google search and you can find them. I don't think there any DPT programs in Canada. It's worth checking into.

ONstudentPT · Aug 22, 2006

ProZackMI said:
I've read your posts and you and Marley gave him some excellent advice. Marley spoke from his heart and from experience. Marley is an ex chiropractor in the US who has gone through a great deal as a result of his experience as a chiro.

Jesse14 is a very opinioned kid. He's 20. He's barely out of his teens. He may have "puffed" himself up a bit, but he's a kid. I don't think he meant any harm or tried to deceive anyone. He's just a very naieve kid who is trying desparately to rationalize and justify his potentially unwise career choice.

The fact is, while most chiros default on their loans, end up quacks, and do nothing but dupe their patients, there are some good ones out there and there some financially successful ones out there. There's always the exception to the rule. Jesse's youth clouds his judgment and his overconfidence is his own undoing. He assumes he will be the successful DC like daddy; however, given the current state of chiropractic affairs, he most likely will end up going back to school to get an ATC credential or end up teaching PE with his kin. degree.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet, from what I've seen, is that in the US, PTs are moving toward a DPT degree (Doctor of Physical Therapy), which is a 3 year post bachelor's professional degree. PTs are lobbying for enhanced scopes of practice in most states (e.g., direct access). Jesse could consider coming to the US for his PT education. For example, at Oakland University, here in Michigan, they have a DPT program.

www.oakland.edu

Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids also has a DPT program:
www.gvsu.edu

There are many DPT programs in NY state, Michigan, NJ, Penn, etc. Do a Google search and you can find them. I don't think there any DPT programs in Canada. It's worth checking into.

Prozack,

I agree with everything you have written. Its true Jesse14 is trying to rationalize his decision in his head and struggling with what he should do with his life. I can imagine (with your background you probably understand this much better than me) that it must be quite stressful for him to have this tug of war in his head about what he should do.

I have tried to convey to him to think about going into physio but I am afraid just like so many in my graduating kinesiology class he does not have the marks to get into physio and has turned to chiro instead. Physio here in Canada is at a Masters level and is quite competitive to get into with a GPA of 3.62-3.65 just to get an interview (at the school I am at they had approx. 900 applicants for 60 spots).

He could go to the states to get a DPT it maybe a little less competitive to get in but it would also be much more costly and would take more time. Currently Canada does not offer a DPT only an MPT(but just as good as the DPT and we have direct access everywhere) because the education system works a little different here and there would have to be many detailed steps taken for a clinical doctorate degree to be offered in Physiotherapy but I am sure it will happen eventually. They do however offer PhDs is in Rehabilition sciences.

And being a PE/Science teacher at a highschool wouldnt be so bad, its a comfortable job with reasonable pay. If I for some reason didnt get into physio thats the route I would have taken, I wouldnt have even considered chiro at that point.

BackTalk · Aug 22, 2006

Yes, unfortunately we have a reputation of being highest defaulters on student loans when it comes to doctors. Chiropractic is a tough market, you have lousy insurance reimbursement for the most part, and you are pretty much on your own when you graduate. You will have to open your own clinic or work for a DC who will pay you enough to make your student loan payment and that's about it. Oh yeah not only do you have to deal with that you also have to deal with the know-it-all medics trash talking your profession. If MD's in private practice didn't have the hospitals and the insurance companies funneling them new patients they would defaulting on their loans. I think people here would better serve Jesse by telling him to avoid healthcare all together. Insurance is going down the tubes and people will not pay out of pocket for what the insurance pays. You think a patient will pay $200-$300 a visit for PT or an ortho consult out of pocket? They won't even want to pay the family doc for a $70 office visit. One thing about chiropractic is many people already pay cash, they're use to it, and they've been conditioned like Dental patients. Medical doctors on the other hand rely on insurance and when it disappears they'll be workin for all the chiropractors. 😀

Yes, we have some quacks just like they do, we have doctors who dupe patients just like they do. What's your point? Since your profession is larger than ours, you probably have more quacks and scammers than any healthcare profession.

PublicHealth · Aug 22, 2006

BackTalk said:
Yes, unfortunately we have a reputation of being highest defaulters on student loans when it comes to doctors. Chiropractic is a tough market, you have lousy insurance reimbursement for the most part, and you are pretty much on your own when you graduate. You will have to open your own clinic or work for a DC who will pay you enough to make your student loan payment and that's about it. Oh yeah not only do you have to deal with that you also have to deal with the know-it-all medics trash talking your profession. If MD's in private practice didn't have the hospitals and the insurance companies funneling them new patients they would defaulting on their loans. I think people here would better serve Jesse by telling him to avoid healthcare all together. Insurance is going down the tubes and people will not pay out of pocket for what the insurance pays. You think a patient will pay $200-$300 a visit for PT or an ortho consult out of pocket? They won't even want to pay the family doc for a $70 office visit. One thing about chiropractic is many people already pay cash, they're use to it, and they've been conditioned like Dental patients. Medical doctors on the other hand rely on insurance and when it disappears they'll be workin for all the chiropractors. 😀

Yes, we have some quacks just like they do, we have doctors who dupe patients just like they do. What's your point? Since your profession is larger than ours, you probably have more quacks and scammers than any healthcare profession.

Well put, BackTalk. You are definitely unique among the many quacks in chiro. Perhaps the folks here would benefit from hearing about how your practice, where you get your referrals, relationships with MDs, how much bank you make a year, etc.

Chiropractic is also growing within VA hospitals. Preliminary data from the initial group of DCs is very promising. Vets are responding to chiro when medications have failed them.

FoughtFyr · Aug 22, 2006

PublicHealth said:
Well put, BackTalk. You are definitely unique among the many quacks in chiro. Perhaps the folks here would benefit from hearing about how your practice, where you get your referrals, relationships with MDs, how much bank you make a year, etc.

Chiropractic is also growing within VA hospitals. Preliminary data from the initial group of DCs is very promising. Vets are responding to chiro when medications have failed them.

Yes but you are leaving aside the HHS OIG report against chiropractic. Trust me, chiro bashing aside, government reports like that are used to cut government funding (as it should be in this case). Like it or not, the writing is on the wall in Washington. I would bet we see Medicare/medicaid coverage for chiropractic cut within the next cycle or two. The VA will be right behind.

- H

FoughtFyr · Aug 22, 2006

BackTalk said:
Yes, unfortunately we have a reputation of being highest defaulters on student loans when it comes to doctors. Chiropractic is a tough market, you have lousy insurance reimbursement for the most part, and you are pretty much on your own when you graduate. You will have to open your own clinic or work for a DC who will pay you enough to make your student loan payment and that's about it. Oh yeah not only do you have to deal with that you also have to deal with the know-it-all medics trash talking your profession. If MD's in private practice didn't have the hospitals and the insurance companies funneling them new patients they would defaulting on their loans. I think people here would better serve Jesse by telling him to avoid healthcare all together. Insurance is going down the tubes and people will not pay out of pocket for what the insurance pays. You think a patient will pay $200-$300 a visit for PT or an ortho consult out of pocket? They won't even want to pay the family doc for a $70 office visit. One thing about chiropractic is many people already pay cash, they're use to it, and they've been conditioned like Dental patients. Medical doctors on the other hand rely on insurance and when it disappears they'll be workin for all the chiropractors. 😀

Yes, we have some quacks just like they do, we have doctors who dupe patients just like they do. What's your point? Since your profession is larger than ours, you probably have more quacks and scammers than any healthcare profession.

Welcome back old friend. Come on in, the water is nice. BTW - any chance you will be in Chi-town in the coming months; I have many trips there planned and would love to buy you a cup of coffee. PM me.

- H

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