Income of podiatrist right after finishing residency???

[PADPM]

Excellent post.

And once again, I believe that my posts have often been misunderstood. I've never advocated anyone accepting a low paying contract nor have I ever supported the idea of an employer offering a low paying contract.

However I did state that the cold, hard facts are that there simply are some offers that will be on the table for a relatively low starting salary, and that there is a definite saturation point for those high paying jobs with orthopedic groups, hospitals, etc.

Just as every graduating law student is not going to obtain a high paying starting salary after finishing law school, the same is true for graduating residents. It is supply and demand.

If you end up working for a DPM group, it does not have to be all doom and gloom. Depending on geographic area, you may be offered a very high paying contract and you may not. In some areas the economy has had a much greater impact and groups simply can not afford to pay a new doctor a high salary until that doctor begins to produce an income for the practice.

Because as I've stated before, in addition to the salary, the practice has to absorb the cost of the malpractice, hospital application fees, hospital dues, APMA dues, ACFAS dues, ABPS dues, disability insurance premiums, health insurance if applicable, etc., etc.

If a doctor has confidence in himself/herself than these relationships can be rewarding if the contract is written correctly and if the doctor is rewarded for his/her hard work and production.

Once again, I don't advocate low salaries nor do I encourage anyone to sign a low paying contract. But pounding your chest and telling everyone that you're not going to accept something, if it's the only offer you have will certainly not pay your large debts any sooner.

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[NatCh]

BTW, I personally think that $60-70k with benefits added on is rather generous considering the market and health care climate right now. If you make more than that, good for you, be happy.

I think that would be a good way to become a disgruntled podiatrist. $60K-$70K straight salary amounts to very little when you subtract out your student loan payment.

Employers will pay as little as they have to, and negotiation is usually expected. If a group tells you they can only afford $60K plus benefits, then that's when you counteroffer with $60K + benes + production-based incentive. This way the employer won't be paying you any more than they just told you they can afford until you earn it by generating more revenue.

Live within your means and get that debt paid off and THEN you have real bargaining leverage! But 125-200k in debt? You are at the mercy of others.

$60K straight salary would likely mean that you would have to refinance your loan to a 30-year note just so you're not flat broke each month, but even if you kept the loan at a 10-year note you'd be 1/3 of the way through your useful career life by the time you paid it off.

I agree that thumping your chest and saying you deserve more because of your training and debt isn't going to get you anywhere, but having the attitude that you are at the mercy of others and accepting a low offer (economic recession or not) isn't a good move either. Doing so almost guarantees misery.

A big ortho or msp group can afford to pay more initial base salary. A small DPM group can't. But there's no good reason why a small DPM group can't pay you what they feel they can afford as a base salary, plus give you bonus pay based on a percentage of how much you produce. Pod groups in general run with around 50%-60% overhead. If you are even slightly busy during your first couple of years, then you WILL be able to generate enough income to get into your bonus range, but you have to have a bonus range written into your contract for that to happen.

If a potential employer tells you they can afford only $60K base, no incentive, no buy-in, no negotiation then that might be your cue to walk away because either they are trying to take you for a ride or they really aren't in a position to be hiring another doctor.

Nat

Edit: These numbers are assuming everyone involved is talking about a full-time practice. If the employer and applicant are looking for a part-time hire then the numbers would be different. A lot of new physicians are seeking part-time nowadays.

 

[southern dpm]

We are starting the process of verbal talks between the partners about hiring an associate. My first years which is about to be 5 years ago. I had a base of 70k, 5K upfront to help with moving costs and start up. Benefits. Insurances, CME etc. I asked for everything and car. If you dont ask you wont get. They offered 50K, they asked if they were in the ballpark, I said not even close, told them I made that in residency with benefits. They had been through two previous associates before me. No bonus structure. For me, I signed a one year contract with option for years two and three. The older partner wanted a buy out after my first year if things worked out. So years two and three were designed to make it more advantageous to buy in.
Now we will be approaching 400k a piece this year. Two partners total. So the third person added if they become a partner, will need to be able eventually to generate that amount. Dont want a situation were there is competition. Each partner will need to generate enough to provide each with the same income. Now the understanding is that the older partners will produce more than the newest in the first five years, but as the older partners transition out, the younger ones will produce more. You trade off and it is a team effort. I am lucky, to get to equal and some months more after 2 and half years. As long as both of are working hard and doing there best, no hard feeling is had if one is producing more than the other. I think the eventually third partner will probably need to do 2 to 3 years as associate prior to buying in and probably take another 2-5 years to produce equal as the other partners. If I had to hire someone right now. probably start them at 80 to 85K plus benefits. insurances (health, life, disability and malpractice), cme, 2 weeks vacation (includes cme courses). I usually try to combine cme and vacation (aka park city meeting). Gas for travel to outlying offices. No car allowance.
It is really I think poor assessing if a practice offers less today, they may really not be ready and have enough work, unless the cost of living is low or they have quick transition anticipated. Deal would have to be tremendous for the future to take a lower amount.

 

[phillypd]

Now that's what i'm talking about.....this is now getting interesting!!!!!!!
When i get outta school....and after residency... if i am offered something that i made in residency(or less) than i may have to reject the offer....not that i'm too proud but for the fact that those making the offers know exactly what you have to pay in loans and living expenses. I think some of them really play on the fact that you need a job and they think they can offer anything to you.. for all that i can take my doctorate and work for a university and make the same amount with less stress. Medicine is great but i will not do it for free...

 

[244869]

Well, let's see it's a matter of simple Capitalism.

There are X amount of 100k+ jobs out there in podiatry.

There are Y amount of pods that want those jobs.

There are Z amount of pods that are left without those 100k+ jobs.


Supply and demand.

If you've got 200k+ in loans, you'd better not be turning down too many jobs regardless of income due to pride and what you read on an internet forum. You no longer have the LUXUARY of pride. You HAVE to pay those loans.

You are forgetting a major component of capitalism...GREED.

If you are finishing up a 3yr residency where you have acquired the tools of a modern podiatric physician who has the ability to perform extensive palliative and surgical foot care AND have $200k in debt...it is in your best interest to find the best job offer out there.

On the other hand, if you are an employer it is in your best interest to employ the best podiatric physician at the lowest pay possible.

Success is not guaranteed and neither is your income.

BTW, I personally think that $60-70k with benefits added on is rather generous considering the market and health care climate right now. If you make more than that, good for you, be happy.

Live within your means and get that debt paid off and THEN you have real bargaining leverage! But 125-200k in debt? You are at the mercy of others.

I agree with you that success is not guaranteed and to always plan accordingly but the mentality that because you are in 200k debt this means you are in the mercy of others...this is a guaranteed way to fall into a job that takes advantage of you.

My brother graduated med school last year with about $200k in debt and if I remember correctly if he chose a 15yr repayment plan the bill came out to $2,500/month and I think the 25yr plan wasnt that much better at around $2,000/month. To pay this you must make atleast $40-45k before taxes. $60k before taxes is roughly $3,500/month after taxes. This leaves you with $1000-1500/month to live.

$60-70k + benefits with no bonus is not generous at all. Knowing the definition of generous...I don't know how you came up with this statement. Personally I think generous is $200k/yr + benefits + bonus....but I would be more than happy with $75k-100k + benefits + bonus.

 

[abraham917]

a lot of people are posting that 60-80k is the norm with benefits. I am curious what these benefits include. If someone says 60k + benefits = 110k what can the 50k account for?

 

[jonwill]

a lot of people are posting that 60-80k is the norm with benefits. I am curious what these benefits include. If someone says 60k + benefits = 110k what can the 50k account for?

60-80K is not the salary but the BASE salary. The rest of the money made is done so based on production. If your contract states that you make 80K plus 40% after billing 2.5 times your base salary, once you bill 200K, you get 40%. So, if you bill 400K in a year, you make 80K + 80K = 160K.

 

[PADPM]

jonwill,

Not to be "picky", but there's a HUGE difference between what a doctor "bills" and what a practice actually collects.

In your last post you stated that if a new doctor BILLS $400,000 then he will get 40% of that which equals $80,000 etc......

I don't know of any practice that pays based on the amount billed, but they do pay on the amount collected. That can often be significantly less, so you may want to re-work some of your numbers!!!

And I believe that many of the younger doctors out there underestimate the cost of overhead. For example, today I saw an ad for a practice for sale where the doctor said his practice grossed $940,000, yet he said his net was only $250,000. This shows some of the younger docs that sometimes it takes a LOT of money to bring home a decent income, though in this case his overhead seems VERY excessive.

 

[templepodnc]

What is the typical overhead expense for the average surgical practice? Maybe 35-50% with most being around 40ish?

 

[NatCh]

What is the typical overhead expense for the average surgical practice? Maybe 35-50% with most being around 40ish?

I think most run around 50%-60%. That's an estimate based on what I've seen at a handful of practices, but it can vary. Also from what I've seen, very large groups run more like 75%.

Overhead expressed as a percentage is somewhat meaningless though. The more meaningful number is the dollar amount of your fixed expenses because that's the amount you have to generate in order to pay the bills (e.g., rent, utilities, payroll, IT, housekeeping, advertising, etc.).

Let's say your monthly fixed expenses run $12,000 and you hypothetically had no other expenses (yeah right). If you collect $24,000 that month, then your overhead is 50%.

Then say the following month you collect $16,000. Your overhead would be 75%, which sounds way more than 50% overhead, but your expenses didn't actually change; your collections did. Expenses don't fluctuate too wildly but collections can from month-to-month (at least for me). Over time you can calculate an average, but if you pay yourself monthly then some months you're fat and other months you're looking under the sofa cushions.

You can increase your net earnings by either increasing your collections, decreasing your overhead, or both. The more you spend, the more you have to make to pay the bills (hey, just like at home!).

**************************************

Like PADPM said, what you bill and what you collect are very different amounts. I think I collect about 2/3 to 3/4 of what I bill.

Hypothetically let's say I bill $30,000. I can anticipate collecting maybe $20,000 (aka "gross"), from which I pay my expenses of say $12,000 (aka "overhead"). I'm left with $8,000 (aka "net"). That comes out to 60% overhead.

The other thing to get used to is the fact that you don't always get paid for your work right away. It can take up to 6 months before you see any money for work you did. Insurance companies sometimes will deny a bill, causing you to have to resubmit it. Why they deny a bill can be reasons such as not covering whatever procedure you did, having your ICD-9 (diagnosis) code not pair up with your CPT (procedure) code, or some other annoying little detail such as having the wrong modifier (an entirely complex lesson in itself, uyyy modifiers). Therefore, the first half year in practice you may not generate much money, and someone has to cover your expenses. That someone would either be your employers if you take a job, or the bank via your business loan if you go into business for yourself. I think I worked nearly four months before having my collections exceed my expenses such that I could pay myself.

Nat

 

[PADPM]

NatCH,

GREAT post. I think this may explain why many DPM groups can not always afford to offer new hires a large salary right out of the gate. Some larger orthopedic groups or hospitals may have a larger slush fund to offer these new hires, but most DPM practices simply can not afford to pay large starting salaries until the new doctor begins to generate a decent income.

As you so eloquently pointed out, it can take many months to see a dime after your first billing. And we all know that an insurance company will find any reason to deny any claim. Unfortunately, young doctors simply don't understand this "business" side of a practice and just think that you perform a big surgery and get paid the big bucks. They forget about ALL the other expenses involved.

Maybe some of these doctors will now understand why they may be INITIALLY offered what seems like a low contract, but as I've stated over and over again in a very short time that number should equal out to a decent salary once they start "producing" an income.

 

[jonwill]

Your right, I mis-spoke although I have seen a few contracts based on percentage billed but it usually is on percentage collected.

I'm trying to get a job lined up sooner than later so that I can get on insurance plans, medicare/caid, etc as soon as possible. What is required and what is the earliest you can apply for these things? I've got a year left but in many aspects (especially with insurance plans and privileging), that isn't very much time.

NatCH, good points. That is why a lot of larger groups will offer a guaranteed salary for the first year. One of our residents signed with a group for a guaranteed 190K (175K and 15K signing bonus) first year. However, after the first year, his income will largely depend on production. The salary will help him in his first year while he is getting things "off of the ground".

 

[PADPM]

jonwill,

I'm AMAZED that anyone could afford to pay one of your friends $190,000 right out of the gate. In my mind, that's an extremely generous offer that I could simply not afford to pay, when that doesn't even include the cost of malpractice, hospital dues, membership dues, etc.

Please remember, I just posted about a doctor selling his practice that grossed $940,000 and the doctor said he was netting $250,000, and your friend is STARTING with $190,000!!!!! Add on the dues for APMA membership, ABPS, ACFAS and malpractice premiums and you're well over $200,000!!

Now you can see why I keep saying that new hires making that kind of money to start will probably be the exception and not the rule.

 

[NatCh]

Your right, I mis-spoke although I have seen a few contracts based on percentage billed but it usually is on percentage collected.

I'm trying to get a job lined up sooner than later so that I can get on insurance plans, medicare/caid, etc as soon as possible. What is required and what is the earliest you can apply for these things? I've got a year left but in many aspects (especially with insurance plans and privileging), that isn't very much time.

I would not worry about your credentialing too much unless you plan to start your own practice immediately. If you plan to join an established group, they will most likely have staff to do the legwork for you. That's another benefit of working for someone else. They take care of the paperwork for you (but ultimately you are paying for it). When you first start working, the employer will bill on your behalf under their tax ID number. They should also fill out all the applications for insurance panels and surgical privileges too. I wouldn't imagine that an employer would have their staff start the process until you have signed the contract and they are sure you will be working for them.

NatCH, good points. That is why a lot of larger groups will offer a guaranteed salary for the first year. One of our residents signed with a group for a guaranteed 190K (175K and 15K signing bonus) first year. However, after the first year, his income will largely depend on production. The salary will help him in his first year while he is getting things "off of the ground".

Yes, all salaried positions guarantee income, whether small or large, for the employee so he or she doesn't have to worry about it.

I should make a distinction when I talk about "generating income to cover your expenses." As a business owner you start to think of your business as a separate entity from yourself. If you have a P.C. then legally it is a separate entity from you. So when I talk about collections versus expenses and such, I'm referring to your business and not yourself.

If you choose to start your own practice then your practice can hire you as an employee. Therefore your company puts you on the payroll and can pay you a guaranteed salary each month even if your business didn't make the money (just as if you took a job working for someone else's company). The funds may have to come from your business loan on a low month, but your business can guarantee yourself a salary. It's not necessarily a great thing to do since it can rack up debt, but if your company declares a loss at tax time your tax burden is light.

$190K is an awesome starting salary for our profession. Nice!

 

[jonwill]

jonwill,

I'm AMAZED that anyone could afford to pay one of your friends $190,000 right out of the gate. In my mind, that's an extremely generous offer that I could simply not afford to pay, when that doesn't even include the cost of malpractice, hospital dues, membership dues, etc.

Please remember, I just posted about a doctor selling his practice that grossed $940,000 and the doctor said he was netting $250,000, and your friend is STARTING with $190,000!!!!! Add on the dues for APMA membership, ABPS, ACFAS and malpractice premiums and you're well over $200,000!!

Now you can see why I keep saying that new hires making that kind of money to start will probably be the exception and not the rule.

You shouldn't be too amazed. It is the rule (well maybe not 190 but definitely six figures). We see it quite a bit. Remember, there are MANY other options besides working for a private practice group. Multispecialty groups, ortho groups, and hospitals are all very viable options. These guys often pay very well (but with less incentives).

I quote the words of a very well-known podiatrist in the midwest, "Anyone with a three year surgical residency that signs for less than six figures is a sucker!" We have to change our way of thinking in this profession (which will happen). I don't know of any of my MD buddies signing for 60K (nor do I see any of my DPM buddies). We invest just as much time and money as them. Why would I or anyone else settle for less?

One of the biggest problem with our profession is that we have too many old school pods trying to make a buck off of the new, well-trained guys. And they ALWAYS blame it on the overhead (which usually includes a lot of personal expenses being run through the business)!!!

Just my two cents.

 

[G0dFather]

lol great info jonwill ... but u jus ignited a flame !! lol

 

[PADPM]

jonwill,

No offense, but you really have to read your posts carefully and choose your words carefully.

There is quite a huge difference between making "six" figures and starting with almost double that six figure mark. I agree that almost all of the newer 3 year grads will be making "six" figures, but I do not agree that most will be making almost twice that amount and start their careers with salaries in the range of $190,000.

I've already explained that to you several times in detail, but if you don't believe me and insist on citing the exceptions, then I believe you may be in for a rude awakening. Believe me, as a residency director I've been exposed to quite a few more grads than you have.

And I think that your statement regarding the "problem" with our profession is that we have too many "old school pods" trying to make a buck off the new well trained grads is a completely arrogant and irresponsible statement.

First of all, let's not forget that many of those "old school" pods were the one's that opened the doors in the hospitals that never allowed DPM's to perform any surgeries, and now those hospitals are sponsoring the 3 year programs for those "well trained grads". Those programs didn't occur overnight and were most likely the hard work and efforts of many of those "old school pods" many of your buddies like to make fun of at seminars, etc.

Secondly, you and many of your "colleagues" have this mindset that the world and the profession owes you something. If you don't like what the DPM group offers you, then take your superb training and hang out your shingle in you own office and sit and wait for the patients to come in YOUR door.

In the interim, if you come to work for me or any other existing DPM or orthopedic surgeon, you're damned right that I have the right to make a "buck off of you". Do you think I'm hiring you as charity? Am I going to offer you a six figure salary, plus pay your APMA dues, ACFAS dues, hospital dues, malpractice premiums, CME credits, etc., so I can lose money?

Aren't these doctors or aren't I entitled to make a profit by hiring you? Isn't that the point of building a practice? If bringing on a new doctor to the practice isn't going to add to my bottom line, what's the point of taking on the added expense and liability?

Or am I supposed to simply hire you at a loss because you're such a nice guy and a well trained doctor???

Come on and start thinking rationally and think before you write.

Every doctor has the right to make a profit when he/she hires an associate. That's how a practice grows and increased it's revenue.

The new 3 year grads should all be starting "around" the 6 figure mark, but in reality some will be offered more and some less. I still stand firm on my thought that those that are being offered almost twice that amount are the exceptions and not the rule.

Forget about what you think you're worth. With my experience I think I'm worth twice what I'm making, and I do pretty well.

And you should also stop thinking that all the "old school" pods are some evil group that's out to eat their young. That's an urban legend and myth that I'm simply sick of hearing. That "old school" group did more for you than you'll ever know and will ever appreciate.

Now you should simply worry about providing quality care for your present patients as a 3rd year resident and then landing the best job you can next year. And if your STARTING salary isn't as high as you'd like, please remember that within a few short years it WILL eventually even out with the majority of your colleagues.

 

[jonwill]

jonwill,

No offense, but you really have to read your posts carefully and choose your words carefully.

There is quite a huge difference between making "six" figures and starting with almost double that six figure mark. I agree that almost all of the newer 3 year grads will be making "six" figures, but I do not agree that most will be making almost twice that amount and start their careers with salaries in the range of $190,000.

I've already explained that to you several times in detail, but if you don't believe me and insist on citing the exceptions, then I believe you may be in for a rude awakening. Believe me, as a residency director I've been exposed to quite a few more grads than you have.

And I think that your statement regarding the "problem" with our profession is that we have too many "old school pods" trying to make a buck off the new well trained grads is a completely arrogant and irresponsible statement.

First of all, let's not forget that many of those "old school" pods were the one's that opened the doors in the hospitals that never allowed DPM's to perform any surgeries, and now those hospitals are sponsoring the 3 year programs for those "well trained grads". Those programs didn't occur overnight and were most likely the hard work and efforts of many of those "old school pods" many of your buddies like to make fun of at seminars, etc.

Secondly, you and many of your "colleagues" have this mindset that the world and the profession owes you something. If you don't like what the DPM group offers you, then take your superb training and hang out your shingle in you own office and sit and wait for the patients to come in YOUR door.

In the interim, if you come to work for me or any other existing DPM or orthopedic surgeon, you're damned right that I have the right to make a "buck off of you". Do you think I'm hiring you as charity? Am I going to offer you a six figure salary, plus pay your APMA dues, ACFAS dues, hospital dues, malpractice premiums, CME credits, etc., so I can lose money?

Aren't these doctors or aren't I entitled to make a profit by hiring you? Isn't that the point of building a practice? If bringing on a new doctor to the practice isn't going to add to my bottom line, what's the point of taking on the added expense and liability?

Or am I supposed to simply hire you at a loss because you're such a nice guy and a well trained doctor???

Come on and start thinking rationally and think before you write.

Every doctor has the right to make a profit when he/she hires an associate. That's how a practice grows and increased it's revenue.

The new 3 year grads should all be starting "around" the 6 figure mark, but in reality some will be offered more and some less. I still stand firm on my thought that those that are being offered almost twice that amount are the exceptions and not the rule.

Forget about what you think you're worth. With my experience I think I'm worth twice what I'm making, and I do pretty well.

And you should also stop thinking that all the "old school" pods are some evil group that's out to eat their young. That's an urban legend and myth that I'm simply sick of hearing. That "old school" group did more for you than you'll ever know and will ever appreciate.

Now you should simply worry about providing quality care for your present patients as a 3rd year resident and then landing the best job you can next year. And if your STARTING salary isn't as high as you'd like, please remember that within a few short years it WILL eventually even out with the majority of your colleagues.

I'll ignore the subtle shots and simply say that I haven't gotten to where I am in life by not "thinking rationally" and I respectfully disagree with you. We obviously disagree and that's fine. I never claimed that one should start out at 190K (maybe you should read my posts more carefully). But I do believe that I should start well into the six figures. As I stated, this IS the rule (six figures). I don't know what's going on over on the east coast but I can tell you what is happening in the rest of the country. You don't seem to want to accept the fact that their are plenty of other options out their besides joining a podiatry group. Not that I'm against that if it's a good deal. This IS what is happening. The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it false.

I disagree with your assessment of "old school" pods. While there are many that have and continue to push the profession forward, their are just as many holding it back. We both know this. You need look no further than the events of the past year.

I don't want preferential treatment but I won't be taken advantage of either. That's all I'm saying. I will be compensated fairly. Maybe for you, bringing in a new doc won't add to your bottom line. But for many doctors out there, it will. As I said, it all depends. One of my friends signed with a small podiatry group last month for 120K. They are bringing him in because they have little surgical training and they will no longer have to refer out. This does increase their bottom line. No offense but if I don't have anything to offer your group, I'm not going to sign with you because I'm virtually expendible. I will only go somewhere where I can add to what is already there.

I'm not trying to come across as arrogant or offensive. And as I read your posts, I don't think that we disagree as much as you think we do. Who knows, in the end this may all be a moot point. I may decide to open up on my own!

 

[PADPM]

jonwill,

You don't seem to understand or read my past posts.

I am constantly misquoted. I NEVER said that our group won't bring in a new doctor because it won't add to our bottom line. I said why SHOULD our group bring in a new doctor if it won't add to our bottom line? The vast majority of groups of any kind add a doctor to increase their business, not to lose money.

Medicine is a business, and I personally don't know of any medical practice of any type, regardless of the specialty that has ever brought on a new associate with the intention of losing money. On the contrary, every single one of those practices brought on the associate with the intention to expand their income. And the associate was never paid as much as the associate was expected to produce.

And as much as you think I have an "East Coast" mentality, I've told you over and over again that I am fully aware of what's going on across the entire country. I have had graduating residents sign contracts all over the country for various amounts of money.

Some were offered large numbers and some were offered lesser amounts. And once AGAIN I will repeat the FACT that in a few short years those amounts will balance out.

You also write that I don't want to "accept" the fact that there are other options besides working for a DPM group, yet it just about EVERY one of my posts I've mentioned that DPM groups simply can't afford to pay as much as orthopedic groups or hospitals that are hiring graduating DPM's.

So do you REALLY think I don't know that orthopedic groups or hospitals are hiring DPM's when I've mentioned it in the majority of my posts??? Go back and re-read my posts.

Then you have the stones to state "the FACT that you don't like it doesn't make it real".

Who are YOU to tell me what I like or don't like? Show me one post where I mention what I "like" or don't like. I've placed several of my graduating residents in very prestigious orthopedic groups, and actually met with a very large "anti-podiatry" group in the East Coast to convince them why they should hire a DPM vs. an orthopedic surgeon.

They met with me, listened to me and hired a well trained DPM that now performs ALL their foot/ankle surgery and now runs a 3 year residency at the hospital where they perform surgery.

So don't put words in my mouth or "think" for me and tell me what I "like" and don't like. You know NOTHING about me or what I've done for your peers.

EVERYTHING I state on this site is based on significant experience from my years in practice, my years involved with the APMA on different levels, my years involved training students and residents and my years serving as an examiner for the ABPS and not sitting behind closed doors isolated in some basement office on the "East Coast".

I'm FULLY aware of national events and trends, and I'm FULLY aware of the job opportunities available at institutions,hospitals, government, small DPM practices, large DPM practices, orthopedic practices, multi-specialty groups, HMO practices, etc., and I'm FULLY aware of salary offers NATIONALLY.

By the way, what were the events of this year by the "old school pods" that held back our profession?

 

[jonwill]

You're kind of all over the place their. Sure, I could go on and on about how you're miss-quoting ME and putting words in MY mouth but I won't bother.

Good! If you're aware of salary nationwide then stop acting so suprised every time you hear about a contract for mid-100K or a signing bonus. These are the things that make many on this forum (not just myself) wonder. If you are "in the know", then why do you always act so shocked? Maybe it's just the way I'm reading your posts. I completely understand what you are saying (which continues to elude you) about salary. Salary depends on a lot of different factors.

I guess my concern is that you continually seem to IMPLY that we should be happy with netting some insanely low number out of residency. I'm not quoting you nor have I ever claimed to quote you. It is the nature of your posts. You seem to get all bent out of shape everytime someone talks about a reasonable salary. You seem to have a real problem with my co-resident who signed fo 190K or in your words, "It's hard for me to believe". And maybe it's just the manor of your posts that leads me to believe that you don't believe it (or like it) but that doesn't make it any less true. I agree that it is high end but are you honestly telling me that NONE of your residents have EVER signed similar deals? Now, is it what we should all expect? Of course not. But what we should expect is a reasonable contract.

You're right, I don't know you and have no idea what you have done for us young whipersnappers. But if you have indeed done a lot for our profession, then I am very grateful to you. And I'm honestly curious. You seem to be speaking from experience so I'd love to hear it. Over the past 5 years, where have your residents gone? What was the lowest offer, highest, and overall average?

 

[phillypd]

ok.....
So i don't really understand why people continue to argue with PADPM about this stuff. I have talked to residents, attendings, deans, etc.. and they have all said the same thing about salary. It depends on where you go, and who you sign with. You would be a fool to stay in a area so over populated with DPM's anyway, just driving around in my area of the city....i've seen too many. Even the military will pay you more than 100,000..... if they don't, than it's because they offer other things as well...such as rent free housing, tuition payments, etc...and the recruiter told me this....so in the end...it will equal to over 100,000 anyway.
In my current career, I make about 60,000/yr base.....for the life of me, I don't understand why i would switch careers, encounter more debt (100,000+) to make what i was making from day one.....although i love medicine....I refuse to do it for free.......

this is hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now i need a drink........

 

[PADPM]

jonwill,

You really don't know when to stop. Once again in your post you state that it "leads you to believe that I don't believe it, or "don't like it" regarding the high salary offers you mentioned.

Why in the world would I "not like it"???? What would make your mind even CONSIDER that I would not "like it"?

That's what I refer to when I state that you should think before you write.

Why wouldn't I "like it"? After all I've done for our profession don't you think I want the young graduating residents to succeed? Don't you think I want to see our profession get remunerated on par with other medical/surgical specialties? Do you think I'm "jealous" that these recent grads are getting compensated fairly for their skills and knowledge?

I can't even BELIEVE you made that comment.

I've stated dozens and dozens of times on THIS forum that I have NEVER, NEVER advocated anyone sign a low-ball offer, despite your ridiculous comment that I seem to "IMPLY" that you should be happy netting some insanely low number out of residency. You keep re-hashing this point and I keep stating that I DO NOT advocate ANYONE sign a low-ball contract.

What I continually state is quite simple:

Not everyone is going to be offered a lucrative contract from day one.

Some will be offered less than "ideal" STARTING offers.

IF anyone decides to sign those offers, they may be based on production, incentives, bonuses, etc., and many of those have the potential to earn a relatively good income in a short amount of time.

Within in a few short years, the income usually will balance out, despite the "starting" salary, since those that start high usually top off relatively quickly, and those that start low usually have the ability to climb quickly.

Ultimately, it is up to each individual to decide what is best for him/her.

Is my position clear enough now?

 

[jonwill]

I've stated dozens and dozens of times on THIS forum that I have NEVER, NEVER advocated anyone sign a low-ball offer, despite your ridiculous comment that I seem to "IMPLY" that you should be happy netting some insanely low number out of residency. You keep re-hashing this point and I keep stating that I DO NOT advocate ANYONE sign a low-ball contract.

What I continually state is quite simple:

Not everyone is going to be offered a lucrative contract from day one.

Some will be offered less than "ideal" STARTING offers.

IF anyone decides to sign those offers, they may be based on production, incentives, bonuses, etc., and many of those have the potential to earn a relatively good income in a short amount of time.

Within in a few short years, the income usually will balance out, despite the "starting" salary, since those that start high usually top off relatively quickly, and those that start low usually have the ability to climb quickly.

Ultimately, it is up to each individual to decide what is best for him/her.

Is my position clear enough now?

I agree completely.

 

[PADPM]

First of all, where did you get the idea that the scope of practice on the "East Coast" is less than California?

Please remember that the "East Coast" is a pretty large area. I know that in Pennsylvania and New Jersey I have performed surgery on the foot & ankle and lower leg as it relates to the foot/ankle. I have never had any restrictions and have performed amputations, used all forms of hardware, applied ex-fixators, have ER privileges,etc.

Sometimes I really don't know where the students or residents on this site obtain their information. But I can assure you that IF there are any salary differentials, it has nothing to do with scope of practice in MY area of the "East Coast" since our laws are pretty liberal.

I have no idea where anyone is going to "top off". My comment was simply that if you averaged everyone out, in a few years it would pretty much even out among those that started low and those that started high.

There is no magic number in our profession that you can or can't make. I know colleagues that simply make a horrible living for whatever reason, and I know guys that make 7 figures. I would say that it's safe to say that the founding partners of my practice probably make enough money that they could have retired at least 20 years ago. Our senior partner's "primary" home would rival most homes you'd see on MTV's "cribs"!!

So tell your roommate that there is really no ceiling on the amount you can earn in ANY profession. However, when you do earn your keep, please do it honestly and ethically.

 

[PADPM]

It wasn't one of my friends, it's one of the founding partners in my group. My point was that there is no real "ceiling" on the income that a DPM can make, which was a question that was asked.

Some DPM's don't generate a very good income, and some make a LOT of money. There is no particular rule to how much a doctor can generate, but in order to really make the big bucks, you'll probably have to have several doctors working for/with you.

 

[NatCh]

So is your practice one where they are doing this? What do you think has been your practice's method of financial success beyond doing what is right for the patient?

P o n z i !

J/K.

 

[PADPM]

Theta,

You wrote: "So is your practice one where you are doing this?"

I can't answer that question because I don't know what you mean.

If you are referring to having doctors work "for us", yes, we have a very large practice and not all the doctors are partners. But all our doctors are treated fairly and our associates are paid fairly. They also naturally have a choice to sign a contract or walk away if it doesn't satisfy their financial needs.

As in most practices, there are regular office meetings, quarterly meetings among the doctors and yearly doctor reviews for all partners and associates where everything is "aired out". Any problems, criticisms and/or complaints come out one on one. Nothing is held against the associate or doctor and bonuses are discussed, new goals are discussed, previous year's numbers are discussed, new expectations are discussed, etc.

This is how we attempt to keep all our docs happy. However, in any practice there will always be issues and you will never have every doctor happy every day. There are days when there are issues that piss me off and times where I'm as happy as a pig in sh-t. That's true of any profession.

I can only speak for my/our practice and the way we treat doctors. We will never be able to keep everyone happy all the time despite our attempts. Associates will ALWAYS count the money of the partners, that's human nature. Everyone always wants to make more money, from the richest guy to the poorest guy.

As I've stated many times, there is no magical formula. Practice quality medicine and you will ALL eventually make a better than average living/income. Some of you will end up very wealthy, but the majority of you will still be above the curve.

 

[Podmeister]

$60K may seem like a lot when you're an undergrad eating spaghetti and drinking $10/case beer, but after taxes it comes out to maybe $4000/month.

Subtract maybe $2000 for your 10-year loan payment and you're left with $2000.

Subtract another $1000 for rent or mortgage and you have $1000.

Have any kids? Subtract the rest of what you have.

If you sign on somewhere for $60K flat salary without incentive bonus, you're going to be living no better than the typical undergrad.

Let's not forget your spouse's $2000/mo shopping spree.

 

[G0dFather]

Some of you will end up very wealthy, but the majority of you will still be above the curve.

Well said doctor!

 

[abraham917]

There have been a few posts stating that after residency you will find less pay in cities overcrowded with podiatrists...is there specific cities you have in mind? Specifically, I'd like to know people's opinions on Chicago.

 

[Darklord]

Let's think about this logically. There is a podiatry school in Chicago and it is America's 3rd largest city... I'd dare to say that the market may be a little saturated... But that's just my opinion.

 

[msa786]

There have been a few posts stating that after residency you will find less pay in cities overcrowded with podiatrists...is there specific cities you have in mind? Specifically, I'd like to know people's opinions on Chicago.

I was wondering the same thing. And where would be the best states/areas to practice podiatry?

 

[demayette]

To finish with that discussion( argument) ....This is an example of how much podiatrists make--keep in mind, this is the south Florida market-- ie saturated with foot Dr


http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...HC03&hdNarrowDesc=Healthcare -- Practitioners

 

[podiatrist12]

Hello
I was just wondering how much a podiatrist makes right after finishing a solid 3 years residency program. How to search for podiatry jobs?
thanks

Now it is 2015. Once can be board certified in podiatric medicine experienced 30 years and have problems earning $40,000 per year. How can
most private employers that is not a hospital afford to hire podiatry residents with all these increased expenses.
Bottom line is podiatry is a wonderful field yet can most podiatrists really net a living of more than $50,000 per year with expenses being so high.
The good news is one can attempt to become a nurse practitioner after they become a podiatrist so as to attempt to earn a living by getting a job.
Isn't this a win win situation having the knowledge of podiatric medical school and residency training and also to get a nursing degree so as to
attempt to increase one's salary?

 

[g squared 23]

Now it is 2015. Once can be board certified in podiatric medicine experienced 30 years and have problems earning $40,000 per year. How can
most private employers that is not a hospital afford to hire podiatry residents with all these increased expenses.
Bottom line is podiatry is a wonderful field yet can most podiatrists really net a living of more than $50,000 per year with expenses being so high.
The good news is one can attempt to become a nurse practitioner after they become a podiatrist so as to attempt to earn a living by getting a job.
Isn't this a win win situation having the knowledge of podiatric medical school and residency training and also to get a nursing degree so as to
attempt to increase one's salary?

Newly graduating resident with no job?

 

[heybrother]

Sounds like incoherent troll-site drivel. The guy never actually sounds like a human.

I'm actually less pessimistic about starting salaries than I was now that I'm speaking to residents. Anecdotes? Assuredly, but better anecdotes than I'd heard before.

 

[Pronation]

:troll:

 

[CoffeeMonster]

I have a theory that there is an autistic ex pod student or failed podiatrist who now spends his days denouncing the profession with weird scattered thoughts that only make sense to him/her. Most troll posts on this forum and on some other "sites" all sound like they were written by the same person...

 

[dyk343]

It's not a theory... He has/had a site called network 50 something and he had conversations with himself under different names. Nothing really made much sense. Similar to his posts here. I almost feel bad for the guy.

All recent residents from the program I am at are getting good mostly hospital based jobs. I am not sure their exact dollar amount but that sure is a nice new car...

 

[rushrhees]

So one of my classmates Dad is very very knowledgeable about practice management and the business of Podiatry (I probably should not drop the name, but odds are very likely you have read an article of his on practice management). He was saying the salaries in the MGMA phycisian compensation survey are pretty accurate. Yes it is possible to make under $100k first year, but not very likely and if you do, odds are likely that is on you.

 

[Creflo]

Do you have to pay to get this information?

 

[gnrh11]

so I could have just skipped college altogether gone straight to assistant manager at mcdonalds, saved myself 7 yrs and worked my way up to a manager making 50k?

 

[skelper101]

I wonder how much of what was discussed here in 2009 is still relevant. Have there been changes due to the ACA? I have been shadowing a podiatrist this summer and he of the opinion that the ACA is making things tougher, especially for podiatrists.