Income potential for child forensics

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

DD214_DOC

Full Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
912
Can anyone provide some legit details on income potential for someone boarded in both child and forensic psych? Is there a significant difference in this potential between child and adult forensic work?

Members don't see this ad.
 
I have a good friend who did forensics, and this is his takeaway: most of the money is in civil, and likely there's money to be made in child civil forensics. However, the supply appears to exceed the demand, in that a few forensic psychiatrists take most of the lucrative civil caseload, and it's difficult to break in without developing clients, which takes a long time. There's no general salary estimates as there's no facility driven salary figures for this particular subspecialty (forensics). In criminal forensics, the jobs often don't require formal forensics training, and hence there's no competitive advantage. In civil private practice, the general impression I got is that if and when you do fill, it rivals the highest private max for any psychiatric specialty in your area, but it appears that even the best forensics fellows have a problem developing a forensics practice. Whereas, this is not true for a child psychiatrist. Even bottom barrel child psychiatrists can easily fill a practice. Hope this helps.
 
I have a good friend who did forensics, and this is his takeaway: most of the money is in civil, and likely there's money to be made in child civil forensics. However, the supply appears to exceed the demand, in that a few forensic psychiatrists take most of the lucrative civil caseload, and it's difficult to break in without developing clients, which takes a long time. There's no general salary estimates as there's no facility driven salary figures for this particular subspecialty (forensics). In criminal forensics, the jobs often don't require formal forensics training, and hence there's no competitive advantage. In civil private practice, the general impression I got is that if and when you do fill, it rivals the highest private max for any psychiatric specialty in your area, but it appears that even the best forensics fellows have a problem developing a forensics practice. Whereas, this is not true for a child psychiatrist. Even bottom barrel child psychiatrists can easily fill a practice. Hope this helps.

Thanks. I've done a few forensic evaluations as additional duties, and enjoyed them. However, I'm not sure I really want to go back to being a trainee, even if only for a year.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Going to a prestigious forensic fellowship that has a child forensic psychiatry track / child forensic faculty will help with networking. I heard some whispers that Emory's forensics program director was recently AAPL's president and is also a child psychiatrist. There are a few other programs that may have something like that (not sure)which you may want to check into like MGH or Columbia.
 
Going to a prestigious forensic fellowship that has a child forensic psychiatry track / child forensic faculty will help with networking. I heard some whispers that Emory's forensics program director was recently AAPL's president and is also a child psychiatrist. There are a few other programs that may have something like that (not sure)which you may want to check into like MGH or Columbia.

Even that won't help. I have 2 child forensic friends (1 from Emory), and neither have had luck breaking into the field.

It can be quite lucrative if you can get the work, but you need to make the connections yourself.

It would probably help to take a bunch of cases for minimal pay to demonstrate skills and creep up slowly on $. Downside is that this will take quite awhile to even reach an average child pp hourly rate. More of a long term play, except few are willing to take this route.
 
Where's whopper with some sage advice?
 
So my fellowship director was triple boarded with forensics and child. The custody cases are definitely profitable. They typically are a good amount of billable hours, but just super contentious. If you put yourself out there to do these cases you will find work. Just a lot of times not worth the hassle.

If you go this route you may want to attach yourself to an academic program as triple boarded people are rare and they'll likely funnel all the cases to you.
 
Don't have specific information, but in my area at least one of our forensics attendings said that a combined child/forensics-trained psychiatrist can "write their own ticket" here. There is a general lack of supply for forensics where I'm at, and I don't know if there is even a single child forensic psychiatrist in the area. I imagine a lot of it depends on the area you find yourself in, though as my guess is that the larger urban areas probably have more supply than where I'm at.

In terms of building a practice (something I asked him specifically about), his recommendation was to initially work with a recruiting service to simply drum up work and begin building a reputation. Some in-person networking with local law firms could also be helpful. He said that with time more and more referrals come directly to him from firms based on his previous work and from firms providing recommendations to other firms (though he still does occasionally get cases from the referral service) in addition to other forensic psychiatrists who have too many cases to handle themselves. He does primarily inpatient work at a state hospital and has a part-time private practice on the side which, as far as I can tell, he doesn't spend much time specifically developing.

I have no idea how accurate/useful this information is - just passing it along as I recently had this discussion with him.
 
There is certainly need, but most attorneys don't realize what reasonable costs are for our services.

I earn $300/hr in child/adult cash-only pp. I fill more than enough clinic hours to keep me happy. I've had multiple attorneys call me looking for a child psych forensic eval/services/testimony. I always entertain their calls in hopes that 1 day I could charge a very high hourly rate once I have built my name in the legal world. They never ask about actual forensic training/experience. They all say that they have inquired at a bunch of places with 0 luck. I inform them all that I will be happy to start with reviewing records and performing a thorough eval with no premium above my hourly rate - same $300/hr as clinic. If they like my findings and want a more formal report or testimony, the fee stays the same per hour. All have been local so travel costs are minimal. I request a refundable retainer to ensure I'm paid.

Every time, the attorney sounds shocked by $300/hr and says they will go another direction. Every single time.

I'm sure I could offer much less and get the job, but I don't have enough interest in forensics to take a pay cut.

The $ just doesn't seem to exist without building your name through hard work or knowing the right judge to toss you cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
There is certainly need, but most attorneys don't realize what reasonable costs are for our services.

I earn $300/hr in child/adult cash-only pp. I fill more than enough clinic hours to keep me happy. I've had multiple attorneys call me looking for a child psych forensic eval/services/testimony. I always entertain their calls in hopes that 1 day I could charge a very high hourly rate once I have built my name in the legal world. They never ask about actual forensic training/experience. They all say that they have inquired at a bunch of places with 0 luck. I inform them all that I will be happy to start with reviewing records and performing a thorough eval with no premium above my hourly rate - same $300/hr as clinic. If they like my findings and want a more formal report or testimony, the fee stays the same per hour. All have been local so travel costs are minimal. I request a refundable retainer to ensure I'm paid.

Every time, the attorney sounds shocked by $300/hr and says they will go another direction. Every single time.

I'm sure I could offer much less and get the job, but I don't have enough interest in forensics to take a pay cut.

The $ just doesn't seem to exist without building your name through hard work or knowing the right judge to toss you cases.

Meanwhile corporate attorneys charge $1000/hr.... I'm surprised that these attorneys are surprised of your rates, but I guess they're not corporate attorneys. Still, a decent civil/criminal attorney would realize that $300/hr is very reasonable, especially given what they are most likely charging their own clients.
 
I have gotten some cases through national referral agencies. Would anyone here recommend any directories like SEAK or HG.com? So far I have not had any problems with my per hour billing. I would definitely bill more for testifying/depositions as it entails prep time. I haven't used retainers yet but am thinking about it.
 
There is certainly need, but most attorneys don't realize what reasonable costs are for our services.

I earn $300/hr in child/adult cash-only pp. I fill more than enough clinic hours to keep me happy. I've had multiple attorneys call me looking for a child psych forensic eval/services/testimony. I always entertain their calls in hopes that 1 day I could charge a very high hourly rate once I have built my name in the legal world. They never ask about actual forensic training/experience. They all say that they have inquired at a bunch of places with 0 luck. I inform them all that I will be happy to start with reviewing records and performing a thorough eval with no premium above my hourly rate - same $300/hr as clinic. If they like my findings and want a more formal report or testimony, the fee stays the same per hour. All have been local so travel costs are minimal. I request a refundable retainer to ensure I'm paid.

Every time, the attorney sounds shocked by $300/hr and says they will go another direction. Every single time.

I'm sure I could offer much less and get the job, but I don't have enough interest in forensics to take a pay cut.

The $ just doesn't seem to exist without building your name through hard work or knowing the right judge to toss you cases.

Wow 300/hr for like 30 hours a week would be so ideal. Are you in a rich market and are you able to get 30-40hrs/week or is that too much? I mean that's like 400k for like 30 hours a week! Dream job...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Wow 300/hr for like 30 hours a week would be so ideal. Are you in a rich market and are you able to get 30-40hrs/week or is that too much? I mean that's like 400k for like 30 hours a week! Dream job...

$300/hr is gross. 1/3rd is kept for overhead, staff, and future unexpected expenses. Market is mostly middle class. Currently it is me and 1 other CAP combined at about 50 hrs which is about the hours we want. We are searching for a 3rd. I'm out of debt and my family keeps expenses low, so earning about 200k per 20hrs is perfectly fine for me. If we can't find any takers, I may add a few more hours.
 
$300/hr is gross. 1/3rd is kept for overhead, staff, and future unexpected expenses. Market is mostly middle class. Currently it is me and 1 other CAP combined at about 50 hrs which is about the hours we want. We are searching for a 3rd. I'm out of debt and my family keeps expenses low, so earning about 200k per 20hrs is perfectly fine for me. If we can't find any takers, I may add a few more hours.

Very interesting, you bring a unique perspective to this board so thank you for your contribution. Talking practically, if you wanted to legally maximize your profit personally what do you think you could squeeze out if you wanted to be as strategic and efficient as possible? Right now its 200k for 20 hours do you think 400k for 30 hours is reasonable or a stretch?
 
Very interesting, you bring a unique perspective to this board so thank you for your contribution. Talking practically, if you wanted to legally maximize your profit personally what do you think you could squeeze out if you wanted to be as strategic and efficient as possible? Right now its 200k for 20 hours do you think 400k for 30 hours is reasonable or a stretch?

My practice is still young, so our 1/3 number is a bit high on purpose. Need to prepare for expansion.

Roughly: If you minimize expenses, I could see $450k gross for 30 hours and probably about 60-70k for expenses at $300/hr gross including some time for vacation. With 30hrs of patients/week, you need a good office admin to help you fill and efficiently maintain those 30 hrs. Someone cheap just looking for a paycheck won't cut it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Wow 300/hr for like 30 hours a week would be so ideal. Are you in a rich market and are you able to get 30-40hrs/week or is that too much? I mean that's like 400k for like 30 hours a week! Dream job...


Gotta say I'm getting really tired of medical students coming onto here asking about how much money they can make in psychiatry. This is the second one this week (both about CAP weirdly enough). Funny how people get so interested in CAP being their "dream job" after they read about people charging 300/hr.
 
Gotta say I'm getting really tired of medical students coming onto here asking about how much money they can make in psychiatry. This is the second one this week (both about CAP weirdly enough). Funny how people get so interested in CAP being their "dream job" after they read about people charging 300/hr.

For the record, there are general adult cash only psychiatrists charging more than me within a 25 mi radius doing quite well. If you are good, they will come.
 
Gotta say I'm getting really tired of medical students coming onto here asking about how much money they can make in psychiatry. This is the second one this week (both about CAP weirdly enough). Funny how people get so interested in CAP being their "dream job" after they read about people charging 300/hr.

You misunderstood, the setup of the gentlemans job is a dream (30hrs making 400k). I'm not precisely saying that just because he has a great setup one should abandon their passions and beliefs to follow the money but just impressed he was able to pull such a dream setup off.
 
So, are you saying that you're not good?

:eek:

Haha. The adult cash only practices have been around longer and have increased their rates over time. They also consist of only 1 psychiatrist.

I have a different business plan in that I am aiming for 2-4 practitioners in my practice. To obtain higher volume, I charge lower rates and advertise better.

While we have gotten a little off topic, the same business principles go along with child forensics. To gain a foothold, advertise better to attorneys and accept lower fees temporarily. You can't just enter a new market and have cash thrown at you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Haha. The adult cash only practices have been around longer and have increased their rates over time. They also consist of only 1 psychiatrist.

I have a different business plan in that I am aiming for 2-4 practitioners in my practice. To obtain higher volume, I charge lower rates and advertise better.

While we have gotten a little off topic, the same business principles go along with child forensics. To gain a foothold, advertise better to attorneys and accept lower fees temporarily. You can't just enter a new market and have cash thrown at you.

What's your rationale? Why higher volume lower rates versus the alternative?
 
What's your rationale? Why higher volume lower rates versus the alternative?

Everyone attempts to achieve their own ideal business model in private practice.

I know adult cash only practices that charge twice my hourly rate. They only work about 10 hours/week, answer their cell whenever out of an appointment, and handle their own scheduling.

There are also child psychiatrists that hire 4 NP's, 3 LPC's, 1 PhD, and research assistants that accept every insurance imaginable.

Most people are somewhere in between.

Child forensics is unique in that you generally have a private practice that isn't too full, because you may to to reschedule patients abruptly to accommodate testimony. Patients don't like this. If I am upsetting my patients, dealing with refills due to my rescheduling, etc., I should be asking for a higher hourly rate for forensic work. If testimony is far away, I would need travel, lodging, and extra fees for being away from family. That isn't unreasonable as these costs would be paid with locum clinic work.

Few people want to pay thousands of dollars for forensic eval, chart review, report, trial prep, and testimony. The few attorney groups/judges that get such cases start using the same child psychiatrist as they know the quality and likely responses on the stand. Is it worth the networking, advertising, and time to develop yourself in this domain? Once you do, hourly rates could be $600+/hr. How long might that take? Anyone's guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Most responses above mention private clinical practices. A forensic psychiatrist can work in low-volume flexible inpatient settings with available coverage. One can potentially work on private reports at work during the down time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
True, but they typically do more criminal forensic work.

Currently I am doing mostly civil cases (malpractice, stress of pre-eminent death/ grief, etc). I am in the process of expanding into IMEs and record review as well.
 
Even that won't help. I have 2 child forensic friends (1 from Emory), and neither have had luck breaking into the field.

It can be quite lucrative if you can get the work, but you need to make the connections yourself.

It would probably help to take a bunch of cases for minimal pay to demonstrate skills and creep up slowly on $. Downside is that this will take quite awhile to even reach an average child pp hourly rate. More of a long term play, except few are willing to take this route.


Any idea why your friend has not been able to "break through"? I also met an Emory grad and she is apparently making an incredible amount.
 
Any idea why your friend has not been able to "break through"? I also met an Emory grad and she is apparently making an incredible amount.

My guess is that forensics comes down to networking/marketing to the right judges/attorneys. There is not a surplus of work that causes attorneys to line up for your services.

A friend of mine that is not forensic trained knows a local judge. He gets all of the county criminal forensic cases. Forensic trained psychiatrists have applied for work there with no luck.

I only know about 4 forensic trained people, so my n is small. With that said, my general psych friends are doing more forensic work than those with the fellowship.
 
Top